Hinduism/Vedic religion/Sanatana dharma

Spirituality Religion
#1

This thread is for sharing information and resources, experiences, discussing and debating on the religion of Hinduism, variously known as Hinduism, Vedic religion and Santana dharma.

Hinduism, unlike other religions is highly controversial. As it does not have a common founder or clergy any discussion on what Hindism is and what Hindus believe and practice results in multiple views. Even the history of Hinduism raises debate. It’s status as a religion is also debatable. It is perhaps the only religion in the world where every expert will give you a different set of answers on these main areas:

What is Hinduism? What are the doctrines of Hinduism? What is the history of Hinduism? What are the practices of Hinduism?

Over the years, the answers to these questions have become less controversial, as knowledge about Hinduism has improved. Here are my answers based on my own expert knowledge about Hinduism, a religion I am deeply involved in and have been studying for the last 10 years.

What is Hinduism?

Hinduism refers to the original and indigenious religion of India, which is the source of all Indian religions. Much like Judaism is the source of all Abrahamic religions. From Hinduism has sprung Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism. Although historical evidence is scarce, Hinduism has also had a huge influence on gnosticism and Druidism. There is also some historical evidence to suggest influence on South America and Egypt.

The origins of Hinduism are said to be timeless(sanatana) and without any human author. This does not mean Hinduism has been created by aliens, but rather Hinduism is a common and universal knowledge among all enlightened cultures in this universe. It is often compared to science, which has earned it the epiphet of scientific religion, because its teachings are often endorsed by science.

Enlightened cultures collect this scientific knowledge and create Veda in every satyuga. So this knowledge is not limited to any particular time or place. In our current cycle the Indian civilisation were the ones to create the Veda. Based on geological and astronomical evidence in the Rig veda the very earliest this could have been possible was 12,000 years ago. However, the Hindu historical records go back millions of years, so Vedas too could be millions of years old.

The Vedas deal with two kinds of knowledge: paravidya and aparavidya: Spiritual sciences and material sciences. The spiritual sciences are Yoga, Vedanta and Samkhya and the material sciences are Ayurveda(medicine) Vykarana(grammar, prosody and linguistics) Jyotisha(Astrology and astronomy) Natya(drama) Ghandarva Veda(music) Vaastu(engineering and architecture) Vaiseshika(physics and chemistry) Nyaya(logic) Niti(politics and economics) and ganita(mathematics). These are often called Vedic sciences.
They are sciences because they meet the definition of science: must be based on a valid method(pramana) and the knowledge must be objective, testable and supported with evidence.

What are the doctrines of Hinduism?

As Hinduism is such a vast tradition finding a common set of doctrines which are exactly the same is impossibe. At the very least this religion has 10,000 years of history, in 10,000 years this religion has experienced so many developments, reforms, changes. But still it is possible to identify what the general doctrines are which are common across Hinduism

  1. Atman and Brahman: Atman is the ultimate self/soul and Brahman is the ultimate reality/god. They are both considered divine and are the goal of Hinduism. However, where there is disagreement on what is the relationship between the atman and brahman. There are three popular interpretations: non-dualism(Advaita) Atman is identical to Brahman; qualified non-dualism(Viseshadavita), Atman is a part of Brahman; and dualism(dvaita), Atman and Brahman are separate.

The realization of the ultimate goal of Hinduism will depend on which interpretation you accept. If it is non-dualism, then you will become god. If it qualified non-dualism, then you will become one with god. If it is dualism, then you will behold god.

  1. Dharma: The natural order of things and the need to remain in harmony with the natural order. The humans nature is divine and therefore the human is prescribed to be divine by becoming an Aryan, a noble human with virtuous qualities. The human must also fulfil their duties: duty to their parents and elders; duty to their teacher; duty to society; duty to the environment and animals.

  2. Karma and Samsara: The law of action and reaction/cause and effect which is interpreted more or less the same in all sects of Hinduism. One accures karma whenever one goes against their dharma, and karma is the cause of rebirth. The karmas are stored in the soul’s memory as samskaras(potential karmas) and are produced by desire. So the aim is to free oneself from desire so that one attains liberation from samsara.

  3. Samkhya: The enumeration of the levels of reality(tattvas) that comprise the cosmos. There are five popular systems within Hinduism which more or less describe the same universe, but use different classification systems. The first type of Samkhya is given in the Vedas as three worlds(triolka) gross, subtle and causal. Vedanta describes the universe as consisting of 5 unique and distinct layers or koshas: physical, emotional, mental, intellectual and spiritual. The Puranas describe 14 worlds(7 higher planes and 7 lower planes) and classical Samkhya describe 7*7 levels or 49 levels in total, divided into three qualities: physical is tamas(inertia), mental is rajas(action) and spiritual is sattva(neutral). In Tantra there are 7 chakras of which the first 5 correspond to material elements, the 6th one to the mind and 7th one to the spirit.

Samkhya also deals with the elements that comprise reality. There are two meta-categories of elements: consciousness(purusha) and matter(prakriti).
There are two classes of matter: manifest matter and non-manifest matter. There are 23 sub-classes of manifest matter forming a continuum from the most subtle to the most gross: intellect, ego, mind, 5 sense organs, 5 action organs, 5 subtle elements, 5 gross elements.

The Tantra system give a list of 35 elements.

The basics here is in Hinduism it is taught the universe consists of multiple planes or levels ranging from the most gross to the most subtle and each plane has a certain level of consciousness corresponding to it. They are given in the Upanishads as: waking, dream, dreamless sleep and absolute. In Yogasutras there are 7 consciousness levels identified.

The classification systems differ because everybody measures them differently. All that needs to be understood is that the Hindu universe consists of multiple planes along a vertical axis.

Continued later.

#2

What is the history of Hinduism?

Now, this is perhaps one the most controversial areas of Hinduism and you will find accounts differ from various sources dramatically. If you read a standard Western textbook on Hinduism, The history of Hinduism begins in the iron age around 1500BCE. If you consult a Hindu pundit who accepts the Yugas literally to refer to humans, the history of Hinduism is billions of years old. If you consult an archeaologist, Hindu history is 10,000 years old, beginning around 7000BCE.

The 1500BCE date is an obvious lie. This date was put forward by a colonial Indologist Max Mueller, who also was a Christian missionary bent on destroying the religion of Hinduism. Max Mueller calculated this date by looking at biblical history. He believed(a commonly held belief among biblical scholars then) that the world began in 4004BCE. He then calculated when the biblical figures Adam and Eve lived and Noah and his flood, how long it would have taken for the flood waters to dissipate, for land to become fertile again. Then artbitarily came up with the date of 1500BCE for the arrival of Aryans into India. In his later life, Max Mueller admitted he guessed the date. However, despite this, this date has stuck and is used as a sheet anchor to date every other period in Indian history. Most ancient India history you read in textbooks has wrong dates.

The billions of years old date has scant historical evidence. It relies on a literal interpretation of the Yuga cycles corresponding to humans, even though the Yugas are called divya yugas(divine years or godly years). Not all Hindu scholars agree that the Yugas correspond to human years(Such as Swami Yogananda Paramhansa) It is said that the epic Ramayana took place in the Treta Yuga which happened millions of years ago, evidence offered for this is the so-called Rama’s bridge which is millions of years old. Michael Cremo, the controversial author of Forbidden Archeaology, believes this account is true and has been on a quest to find archeaological evidence for extreme human antiquity. The evidence he has found strongly suggests modern humans have been on this planet for billions of years.

The 10,000 year old date is given by archeaologists who have been able to trace the early stages of Hinduism to the Indus valley civilisation by looking at the geological, textual and astronomical data. The Indus valley is not just Vedic, but post-vedic. The Indus sites are built according to Vedic architecture and engineering, Vedic symbols like swastikas have been found, Vedic fire-altars have been found, Vedic rivers have been found. The first evidence of Yoga has been found. The lost city of Dwarka described in the Mahabharata has also been found. From all the available data we can construct a chronology of Hinduism:

Vedic Age:

Earliest hymns of the Rig Veda 7000BCE

The Vedas are composed during this period consisting of the Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and ending with the Upanishads. The Ramayana epic is said to be written during this age as well.

Classical age:

The Mahabharata war 3000BCE
The Mauraya empire: 1500BCE

The Gita, the Darsanas, shastras, Yoga Vasistha and Mahabharata epic are composed.

Post-classical age:

The Gupta empire: 500BCE

The formation of devotional Hinduism(Bhakti Hinduism) and the rise of the four sects of Hinduism: Vaishnavism, Shivaism, Shaktism and ending with Smartism.

Modern age: 1800’s onwards

The formation of neo-Hindu sects such as the Swami Narayana sect, Ramakrishna sect, Kriya Yoga sect, Arya Saamaj sect, Hare Krishna sect, Swami Sivananda sect and the various Hatha Yoga sects.

In this account we can be 100% certain of the history from the classsical age to the modern age. What we cannot be certain of is the Vedic age which at the very earliest has to be 7000BCE because of astronomical data mentioned within it allows us to fix this as the date. However, this data can be be true for prehistoric dates too. Traditional records say the Vedas are millions if not billions of years old.

#3

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50316]Traditional records say the Vedas are [B]millions[/B] if not billions of years old.[/QUOTE]

You know you sound like a lunatic, don’t you? :rolleyes:

#4

[QUOTE=Indra Deva;50330]You know you sound like a lunatic, don’t you? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

What for stating a fact about what traditional records say in Hindu history? Ok :wink:

#5

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50332]What for stating a fact about what traditional records say in Hindu history? Ok ;)[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but you actually believe that crap, don’t you? It’s all part of your Hindu superiority complex.
Hence, you are coo-coo for coco puffs :smiley:

#6

What are the practices of Hinduism ?

The practices of Hinduism are not specific to Hinduism and can be found in every other religion, such as meditation, prayer, ritual, singing hymns, idol worship, morality - but the goals of those practices, how those practices are articulated and the philosophy underpinning them is specific to Hinduism. These practices are known as Yoga. The word derived from the Sanskrit root yukta means to join, connect or unite with something. In this case it is the joining of the Atman with Brahman, the individual soul with the supersoul or the self with ultimate reality, and how this joining is interpreted depends on whether you are non-dualist, qualified non dualist or dualist. A non-dualist sees this joining as merging into god; a qualified non-dualist sees this joining as reconnecting to god and a dualist sees this joining as entering the kingdom of god. This objective is to be achieived in the here and now by the process of Yoga.

All yoga has one aim only to take you to the final goal by ridding you of all the modifications of the mind in order cleanse and mind and bring it back to its pure and pristine state, allowing merger/connection/vision to god.

In Raja yoga, a Raja yoga rids themselves of all thoughts by gradually bringing all thought activity to a stand still through the process of meditation. They do this by practicing a moral life which will keep the mind stable as possible(yama and niyama) by making the body more healthy and flexible(asana) by making the breath more rhymic and harmonious(pranayama) and finally through meditation. According to the Gita this type of Yoga is suited to one who has an intellectual mind because it deals with the abstract. It is considered the highest yoga.

In Karma yoga, karma yogis rids themselves of all selfish habits by practicing selfless service such as doing chariable work, performing ones duties without looking for rewards and living as spiritually as one can in the world. According to the Gita This type of Yoga is suited to the wordly mind because it deals with work.

In Bhakti Yoga, a Bhakti Yogi rids themselves of all negative emotions by pure devotion to their chosen image of god(Ishta Devata). This devotion can be in the form of love for ones mother, father, teacher, spouse or child. This is done through idol worship(murti puja), pilgramages to temples, chanting and singing hymns(mantra and kirtaan) holding fasts for the god, and meditations on the chosen god. According to the Gita, this type of Yoga is suited to the emotional mind because it deals with emotions.

By far the most common type of Yoga practiced in Hinduism today is Bhakti Yoga. It is also considered the lowest type of Yoga, governed by the mode of intertia or tamas. Although Bhakti yogis tend to be the purest in heart and innocent, they often fall short in the intellectual department. In Vedic times, the highest type of Yoga was Raja Yoga, but this is because in those times people were more intellectually developed. By principle, because we are living in a scientific world today, we too should be moving back towards Raja Yoga.

Bhakti Yoga should not be mistaken for Abrahamic devotional rituals. Although there are similarities, Abrahamic religions do not teach that salvation can happen in the here and now through any practice. One will only meet god after they die, and they will either be greeted angrily or lovingly based on what they did in this life, which will in turn lead to either eternal damnation or eternal salvation. Moreover, Abrahamic ritual to god consists of occasional attendance of mass and hearing stories told from the scriptures or reciting prayers mechnically daily. In contrast, Bhakti Yoga is an active engagement in devotion 24/7. A pure Bhakti Yoga will constantly cite the name of their god, constantly hear the name of their god, constantly sing hymns to their god, worship their idol daily, hold fasts for their god - it more akin to being in trance.

This more or less covers the entire gamut of the practices in Hinduism. Notice how there is a practice for every type of mind possible: intellectual, practical and devotional. Controversially, there is also practices for those who have very troubled and agitated minds known as left-hand practices, which involve indulgence in vice in order to shock ones system enough to break out of ones entanglements. These paths are not recommended to most, unless their condition is dire.

#7

Can’t wait for Neechee to weigh in his sophomoric thoughts on “emotionally appealing Bhakti Yoga” :rolleyes:

#8

[QUOTE=Indra Deva;50334]Yeah, but you actually believe that crap, don’t you? It’s all part of your Hindu superiority complex.
Hence, you are coo-coo for coco puffs :D[/QUOTE]

No, I believe what the evidence supports. According to the evidence modern humans have been on this planet for hundreds of thousands of years. If one looks at other archeaological evidence which the mainstream does not report, the time humans have been on this planet can be extended by many factors(See Ancient nuclear war and technology thread)

As the historical evidence is scant, I am going to stick with the 7000BCE date for the beginning of the Vedas and reject what the traditional Hindu pundits are saying, until more evidence is forthcoming.

I have been comprehensive in showing all versions of the history of Hinduism just as any objective scholar should.

#9

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50341]No, I believe what the evidence supports. According to the evidence modern humans have been on this planet for hundreds of thousands of years. If one looks at other archeaological evidence which the mainstream does not report, the time humans have been on this planet can be extended by many factors(See Ancient nuclear war and technology thread)

As the historical evidence is scant, I am going to stick with the 7000BCE date for the beginning of the Vedas and reject what the traditional Hindu pundits are saying, until more evidence is forthcoming.

I have been comprehensive in showing all versions of the history of Hinduism just as any objective scholar should.[/QUOTE]

[B]However, this data can be be true for prehistoric dates too. Traditional records say the Vedas are millions if not billions of years old. [/B]

:cool:

#10

However, this data can be be true for prehistoric dates too. Traditional records say the Vedas are millions if not billions of years old.

Yeah, and once again I am stating facts. Astronomical configurations repeat periodically sometimes every few decades, every few centuries, every few thousands of years. So while 7000BCE is the earliest date that a certain astronomical configuration occurs described in the Vedas, there maybe even earlier dates possible. Again, I am stating a fact that traditional records report extreme antiquity for the Vedas. The reason I am not accepting these dates is because of the lack of historical evidence. I do not accept what scripture says as evidence, but only as a possibility. A possibility only becomes an actuality if there is evidence to back it up.

I think what theseeker said is true, you would disagree with me even if I said 1+1 = 2 :smiley:

#11

Earlier dates are possible. Why discuss BILLIONS of years??? Even millions of years is ludicrous.

Again, I am stating a fact that traditional records report extreme antiquity for the Vedas. The reason I am not accepting these dates is because of the lack of historical evidence. I do not accept what scripture says as evidence, but only as a possibility. A possibility only becomes an actuality if there is evidence to back it up.

The only reason you would even post such ridiculous statements as million or billion year old Vedic scriptures was if you were pushing some kind of silly mythology. Just because some centuries ago Jyotish astrologers figured out where stars are, were, & will be, that doesn’t mean that the Vedas are now in competition with the fossil record in matters of antiquity.

I think what theseeker said is true, you would disagree with me even if I said 1+1 = 2 :smiley:

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. :rolleyes:
(though you’re such a wackjob that you may be using completely different referents that I am)
Even more limp insults attempting at intellectual superiority. Look, just because you’re Indian that doesn’t mean you’re better than white people…

#12

Why discuss BILLIONS of years??? Even millions of years is ludicrous.

Why is it? Were you around millions or billions of years ago to know what was going on, on this planet? What makes you so cocksure that civilisation has only been around for the last 10,000 years? Just because that is what official history says? Do you accept everything that authorities say? There are in fact fossils going back millions of years found in strata that is millions of years old, a dinosaur footprint next to a human footprint being one of them. Check out the documentary, “Mysterious Origins of Man” I posted in ancient nuclear war and technology thread and you will find several mentions of fossils and artefacts we have found which indicate modern humans and civilisation has been around much longer than the current anthropologists tell us. It shows clearly how older fossil records and artefacts are suppressed by mainstream science, simply because it contadicts the theory of evolution.

For the record, the objective reader will note, I am not exactly endorsing these extreme figures for human antiquity am I? I said I accept the 7000BCE figure for now, and only consider the extreme human antiquity suggested by Hindu pundits to be a possibility, but more evidence must be furnished before we accept it.

The objective reader will also note that you are an obvious troll :wink:

#13

Just because some centuries ago Jyotish astrologers figured out where stars are, were, & will be, that doesn’t mean that the Vedas are now in competition with the fossil record in matters of antiquity.

That is impossible without modern computers. It requires knowing various astronomical constants, knowing advanced calculus and being able to compute many variables at once which only a computer can do. The astronomical positions that are described in the Vedas are only possible by naked eye observation. This method of time recording is highly accurate and even today it continues when somebody is born the exact positions of the stars are observed, and because jyotisha accounts for the precision of the equinox, the positions recorded thousands of years and today are accurate.

I still think you are an obvious troll by the way. So do others, who have personally told me, “That Indra Deva is a troll”

Look, just because you’re Indian that doesn’t mean you’re better than white people…

You’re flame baiting, troll. Now, remind me again, but why did I not put you on my ignore list?

You have turned it into a habit to post in every thread, no matter what the topic, to flame and spam. Try actually
contributing for once and making the religion forum a more interesting place. I know you are more intelligent, than you
let on.

#14

Resources on Hinduism

A vast collection of articles on Hinduism on a vast range of subjects:

http://www.hinduism.co.za/
http://www.hindunet.org/

A compilation of scholarly literature and scholarly quotes on Hinduism across a vast multitude of subjects:

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/

Free e-books and online courses on Hinduism explaining Hinduism in easy to understand language, multimedia, Q and A and highly detailed spiritual insights into Hinduism, a site run by Hindu monks from a Sivaite Hindu monestary in Hawai:

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/

Academic:

Oxford Centre for Hindu studies:

http://ochs.org.uk/

Hindu academy, coordinators of GSCE Hinduism, A level Hinduism and soon MA in Hinduism in schools, colleges and universities across the UK. Offer online resources on Hinduism(beliefs, practices, philosophy etc) and multimedia:

http://www.hinduacademy.org/

Voice of dharma, critical and independent Hindu thinkers, loads of publications, articles and books to read:

http://www.voiceofdharma.com/

#15

Youtube of Hinduism

It is always better to watch videos clips than read, here are some of my favourite clips on Hinduism on youtube.

A 5 part basic introduction to Hinduism, by Hinduism Today:





A 3 part documentary on the scientific verification of Hinduism:



#16

Thank you for this wonderful thread SD. It compartmentalizes all the arguments you and I have ever made about Hinduism. People wishing to debate about this matter can come here, instead of bringing it up in divergent paths within other threads.

#17

You weren’t there either, shut the $#%& up.

What makes you so cocksure that civilisation has only been around for the last 10,000 years? Just because that is what official history says? Do you accept everything that authorities say? There are in fact fossils going back millions of years found in strata that is millions of years old, a dinosaur footprint next to a human footprint being one of them.

If you don’t understand how fossils form in various environments (which you obviously don’t), you should just shut your mouth.

Check out the documentary, “Mysterious Origins of Man” I posted in ancient nuclear war and technology thread and you will find several mentions of fossils and artefacts we have found which indicate modern humans and civilisation has been around much longer than the current anthropologists tell us. It shows clearly how older fossil records and artefacts are suppressed by mainstream science, simply because it contadicts the theory of evolution.

Why would you look at some ridiculously rare unexplained fringe examples when the massive corroborating body of evidence says otherwise? You’re just like a conspiracy theorist.
& I’ve seen that crap documentary, trying to get science to validate your religion is instant fail. & I’ve read all the fringe Anthro crap, “Human De-Evolution” crap.

For the record, the objective reader will note, I am not exactly endorsing these extreme figures for human antiquity am I? I said I accept the 7000BCE figure for now, and only consider the extreme human antiquity suggested by Hindu pundits to be a possibility, but more evidence must be furnished before we accept it.

But you believe that crap, right? Because you can’t exactly think that they’re lying, right?

The objective reader will also note that you are an obvious troll :wink:

Your mom’s a troll. Who cares? You & your Hindutva buddies run trolling clinics, you have no business talking about it at all. As far as I’m concerned, you can believe whatever religious crap you want but don’t expect people to tolerate your perverted pseudo-science.

#18

SD
I also want to thank you for posting this. It is nice to read something of worth in the religions forum that is not all about who is right or wrong. Very informative with many objective view points. And the perk…
the occasional troll.

#19

If Indra Deva is a troll, then we all are.

He’s not doing anything differently than anyone else. Certainly his posts are no more troll-like than of those who accuse him of it.

#20

[QUOTE=thomas;50418]If Indra Deva is a troll, then we all are.

He’s not doing anything differently than anyone else. Certainly his posts are no more troll-like than of those who accuse him of it.[/QUOTE]

And yet, we don’t go around posting derogatory pictures, engaging in relentless personal attacks, and what not. At least the other members have the courtesy to argue the points made within specific posts and threads, strongly and passionately within reason. This is not the case with ID.