Hindutva

[Surya_Deva]

Very lucid Surya. But tell me , is it your stand that India should not modernise ? After all , if we are so happily saying that the best of Hinduism is picked up by the West, why should India not pick up the best in other systems ? The educational system is based on the British model as is the legal system ? Is that a sign of weakness ? On the contrary, I think it showed great wisdom on the part of the founding fathers during independence that they accepted the good which was already there. It would have been stupid to throw out all existing systems and try to revive what was obsolete. If that is your arguement as to India being dead, why then all humans are dead for almost all cells in the body (except the cereberal cortex) are replaced every few years.
There is much truth in the saying “Whatever cannot change must die”. Sorry friend, in spite of your brilliant exposition, your writing only reveals a deep seated bias.

I am not arguing against progress or modernization, but modernization needs to be on ones own terms. India was not modernized naturally, rather it was forced to adopt a foreign culture, which replaced everything Indian. Hence there is nothing Indian left in India. It is all Western.

None of India’s traditional systems were obsolete. At the time the British arrived its education system, healthcare, industry, social systems were the finest in the world. It was a heavily industralized coutry producing high quality textiles, gems, spices, steel, ships and was renown all over the world. You can research British reports on how highly Indian goods were regarded, they had almost legendary status. It has already beaten Europe to the development of rocketry and cannons, and there is no doubt that it would have had an industrial and technological revolution. However, before this could happen Indian industry and education was wiped out by the British, ending its industrial and literary culture.

The Indian systems were so good that Britain adapted all its systems into its own culture. They adapated Indian steel production methods, ship building methods, textile methods, India’s education system and its medical methods. In the social sciences they adapted its philosophies and linguistic sciences. Practically all of Western linguistics is plagiarised from Indian linguistics.

Even today Indian systems are still superior to the Western systems. Indian goods which are made using traditional methods are still very high quality and fine. India’s healthcare and management systems Ayurveda and Yoga are still highly sought after in the world and one can still do degrees in these subjects today. India’s education system, which consisted of compulsory subjects like the six systems of philosophy, Sanskrit grammar and logic would still produce more literatre, progressive and critical thinkers today. India’s music is still the most complex, developed and scientific today. India’s metaphysical sciences such as Vedanta and Samkhya are appreciated by the highest Western intellectuals, and considered the best.

There is still a massive demand in the world for Indian things - except by Indians themselves in India, who want Western things. They cannot appreciate their own culture. To them anything that is non-Indian is cool and trendy. Western fashion and media. Japanese electronics. Chinese and Italian food. This is why they are a hopeless people, because they lack their own unique identity.

If there is any hope for India they need to go back to their roots and replace all the Western systems in India with modernized Indian systems. However, as ironic as this sounds, this is more likely to happen in the West itself than it is in India. The West will Indianize, while India will westernize. What India does not realise that Westernization leads to destruction. This is exactly where the West are today at a point of complete and total social, moral, economic and philosophical collapse.

[Nietzsche]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49378]I strongly believe in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Self-actualization follows from meeting your other needs. Note that spirituality only thrived in India when it was materially prosperous, and today when it is not, it has become a safe haven for corruption and superstition. The West was once like India was today, a safe haven for corruption and superstition until it became materially prosperous.

India has regressed and the West has progressed. Before you can make India spiritual again you need to make it materially prosperous. This is the attitude of Indians too, they care little to hear about spirituality, because they are motivated by material desires. They want, like the West does, middle class houses, cars, computers, mobile phones, pubs and clubs, multiplexes. It is very clear to see that Indians follow after the West, because the West has what they want. They emulate everything about the West, including all its flaws.

On the other hand, a sizable amount of people in the West want spirituality. They want what ancient India had. They are the ones driving research into consciousness studies, meditation, yoga, parapsychology and spending handsomely on this. Most of the cutting edge research in spirituality is coming from the West, not India. This is why if you want to contribute to spirituality, you need to contribute where your contributions will be heard. You need to forget about India, India is a virtually extinct country and has been dead for the last 1000 years when the Mughals invaded and destroyed its warrior class. Then the British invaded and destroyed the academic class. It started dying 5000 years ago. The India of today is a hybrid of old India, Mughal India and British India, with the latter aspects being more preponderant.

In all likeliness India is going to be destroyed by China and Pakistan. If tomorrow a world war started, India would be had by the combined forces of China and Pakistan. China has been planning an invasion of India for a decade now and it has mobilized troops on the borders of India and encircled it. India is its own enemy today because it is fragmented into several groups: castes, regions, languages, religions, ideologies. It is ripe for another invasion and this invasion will be the last invasion.

I am not an enemy of India as you obviously know, but I am simply making you aware of how hopeless a cause India is today. It is better not wasting your energy and time, the country is done for. This is why I am emphasising that you must keep Hinduism alive in the world and to do so you must do it via the West, which is currently in the process of globalization and spiritual revolution. If we can cause a spiritual revolution in the West then we can have a spiritual globalization. This is where the Hindus in the world must play a role.

Sanatana dharma is bigger than India. It is time Sanatana dharma spreads across the world again. Why do you think so many gurus are setting up base in the West? Why was Swami Viveakananda and Swami Yogananda told to go to the West? This is because the West is now the leader of the world. It is from the West that the revolution will come.[/QUOTE]

Surya Deva, I am sorry for saying this but…that was the most absurd post I have ever seen on the Internet. [B]So[/B] wrong. China cares nothing about conquering other countries. They simply want the power and influence. It slakes their egos better. As for India, they just want the disputed peripheral territory in the Northern regions. China has nothing to gain from attacking India and would have the entire West on their asses the moment they do so. China has more to gain from trade with India (in addition to using it as a political pawn) than conquering it.

You do not know the mindset of the Chinese. In the latter portion of their history, when they were at the top of their world, they felt no reason to conquer any nation. They were at the top and they knew all peoples of all cultures and civilizations would come to them. Indeed, all nations and civilizations DID come to them, kowtow to their Emperor and trade much coveted products. This is the same case today.

So what if the Chinese strategist said that? The Chinese said the same of every other civilization when they were at the top. I personally feel no alarm at the strategist’s statement. He is simply deriding and mocking India, as most Chinese do and have done. India and Indians have always been a joke to the “superior Han Chinese.”

Pakistan is a pathetic excuse for a nation. It is Pakistan that is close to being a failed state Surya Deva. India is on the rise in many ways. Pakistan, on the other hand, is a victim of its Islamic dogmatism, weak/corrupt government, Taliban incursions, and etc.

India is not done for. Are you watching too much BBC?

You can tout your lack of national identification but the fact is, you are Indian. People will identify you as such. If India falls (which it won’t lol), you would be a pathetic excuse for a human. No one will take you or your thoughts seriously. You would be carrying on the ideology of a long lost culture that would hold no import in the grand scheme of things. Do you see people subscribing to Greek philosophy besides those historians and Western intellectuals (a small minority)?

And I find it sickening that you side with the West. There is nothing of value here. All you see is ignorance, chauvinism, bigotry, and etc. Spirituality can never take hold with such unconscious biases. The West too is failing; economies are starting to droop and China is once again reclaiming its position at the top of the world. Hatred and frustration in general is on the rise.

Why do gurus go to the West? Because the teachings they preach are in direct contradiction with Western societal dogma. Therefore, there is a great spiritual harvest to be gained. Besides, the same organizations and derivative ideologies you see taking hold in the West are taking hold in India. I don’t see what you are talking about. Much of my family back there opines similarly.

[reaswaran]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49432]I am not arguing against progress or modernization, but modernization needs to be on ones own terms. India was not modernized naturally, rather it was forced to adopt a foreign culture, which replaced everything Indian. Hence there is nothing Indian left in India. It is all Western.

None of India’s traditional systems were obsolete. At the time the British arrived its education system, healthcare, industry, social systems were the finest in the world. It was a heavily industralized coutry producing high quality textiles, gems, spices, steel, ships and was renown all over the world. You can research British reports on how highly Indian goods were regarded, they had almost legendary status. It has already beaten Europe to the development of rocketry and cannons, and there is no doubt that it would have had an industrial and technological revolution. However, before this could happen Indian industry and education was wiped out by the British, ending its industrial and literary culture.

The Indian systems were so good that Britain adapted all its systems into its own culture. They adapated Indian steel production methods, ship building methods, textile methods, India’s education system and its medical methods. In the social sciences they adapted its philosophies and linguistic sciences. Practically all of Western linguistics is plagiarised from Indian linguistics.

Even today Indian systems are still superior to the Western systems. Indian goods which are made using traditional methods are still very high quality and fine. India’s healthcare and management systems Ayurveda and Yoga are still highly sought after in the world and one can still do degrees in these subjects today. India’s education system, which consisted of compulsory subjects like the six systems of philosophy, Sanskrit grammar and logic would still produce more literatre, progressive and critical thinkers today. India’s music is still the most complex, developed and scientific today. India’s metaphysical sciences such as Vedanta and Samkhya are appreciated by the highest Western intellectuals, and considered the best.

There is still a massive demand in the world for Indian things - except by Indians themselves in India, who want Western things. They cannot appreciate their own culture. To them anything that is non-Indian is cool and trendy. Western fashion and media. Japanese electronics. Chinese and Italian food. This is why they are a hopeless people, because they lack their own unique identity.

If there is any hope for India they need to go back to their roots and replace all the Western systems in India with modernized Indian systems. However, as ironic as this sounds, this is more likely to happen in the West itself than it is in India. The West will Indianize, while India will westernize. What India does not realise that Westernization leads to destruction. This is exactly where the West are today at a point of complete and total social, moral, economic and philosophical collapse.[/QUOTE]

Indian Industry was labour intensive Surya. And labour was exploited. I remember when I was young, the labour at my ancestral home in Kerala were paid next to nothing for toiling the whole day on the land. A few cups of coffee and a meal plus whatever little money my Granddad felt like paying. The scene on the industrial belt was the same. I would think that Indan products like silk and handicrafts (which are very high quality) were regarded well, but production numbers were pathetic because of the methodology of production. To take the example that you have given Steel. Yes India used to manufacture excellent steel- witness the famous Thanjavur Cannon. Some of the best swords in the world are rumoured to have used Indian Steel. Granted all that, but this was all labour intensive and produced low quantities. The paradigm shift took place when the Bessemer process came into place. The old methods simply were no longer viable.

I do agree that the degree of westernisation that we are seeing in India is too high for comfort. But I also see the very strong sense of spirituality that is present in a lot of Indians including those in the modern cities like Mumbai where I spent more than a decade.

I think we are at a precipice- but I am sure that we will come out all the stronger for it. The next decade will see India showing the way of “Life” to other nations. We may borrow what is good from them, but we will in no way be lesser than them.

[Surya_Deva]

Hehe, Neitzsche. I knew we were going to clash on this point at some point. That is fine it will prove to the forum we do not just blindly follow each other, but have our own unique and critical mind.

I am not Hindutva, because I do not believe in nationalism. I am a true Santana dharmin and Vedic Aryan in that I accept the universal human religion. In fact it is safe to my religion is humanity. I am not Indian. I am a human being. In my many lives I may have assumed countless identities: English, African, Chinese, Native American and Indian. What is common to all? Humanity.

At your age I also use to strongly cling onto national identity and see myself strongly as Indian. Then over time, I matured. I realised that first and foremost I was human. And I was part of a wider human family. My sense of self expanded to encompass all humanity and not just one geographical reigion.

You are blinded by patriotism for India to see the obvious flaws in Indian society and the obvious merits of Western society. I have no such bias because I have no patriotism for any nation. I have shared empathy though with the rest of humanity. I want humanity to progress, and not just one region to progress.

You trumpet India’s so called rising? Rising towards what? India is at a stage that America was at a few decades ago. It is developing a middle class of consumers who want pubs and bars, multiplexes, gadgets and all the underpinings of what America’s common man has today. And where is America today? At the brink of economic, social and philosophical collapse. Is this what India wants? India is going through exactly the same process America went through where the rich are getting very rich and powerful and the gap between the rich and the poor is widening. Sure, for the rich upper class Indian India is rising for sure, but for the 70% of Indians who cannot afford their lifestyle, barely any benefit is accuring. They still live mostly in rural and underdeveloped areas without adequate electricity, clean drinking water and proper education.

Can you really say India is in great position when everyday a terrorist attack take places in the country? Where in every state there is a succession and separatist movement? When it is surrounded by enemies on all sides: Pakistan, China, Bangladesh. To the realist India is in an alarming situation.
The fact is clear and it was recently in the news as well that China claims the entire state of Arunchal Pradesh as “South Tibet” It has built high speed railways to this region and recently conducted exercise where tens of thousands of troops were immediately mobilized on the Indian border directly from Beijing. This is a clear indicator of war preparations. The war rhetoric has even started with Chinese troops regularly making incursions into the territory and marking the territory as Chinese. Chinese warships regularly sail into Indian waters to undermine the Indian psyche.

Indian military strategic experts can see what is brewing between India and China, even if you cannot. You have misplaced confidence that the West would run to the aid of India if China attacked, but actually the West is just as scared of China as everybody else. They would not risk a war with China for the sake of India. Be realistic.

Regarding Indis vs West today in spirituality. In which part of the part is the most cutting edge research being done into consciousness studies? The West. The field of transpersonal psychology is full of Western psychologists and reseachers and major Western universities are now seriously doing research in this. In which part of the world has parapsychological sciences, OBE and NDE research been done? The West. Which part of the world has the most human and civil rights movemenets? The West.

I am sorry I am not blind, I can clearly see that the West leads in world spirituality today and is doing the most research in this field. Hence why the new-age movement, which is a spiritual revolution in its infancy is taking place in the West and not in India. India is a developing country; the West is a developed country.

Virtually every Indian I have met is highly materialistic. It is easy to see by just walking into a bookshop in India. The bookshop is full of books on how to pass your exams, engineering, computing, programming, medicine. In the wee corner there is a section on mind-body and spirit that nobody barely goes to. In a Western bookshop, the mind body section is massive, because there is a market for it.

I often have to teach Indians what their own religion, culture, way of life and history was. Most are not interested and tell me, “I don’t care, for me life is about making money and working” Others realise how ignorant they were all this time. Ironically, I am more likely to find a Westerner who understand karma, chakras, astral body and meditates etc, than I am an Indian.

India is a sinking ship mate. It has been culturally dead for the last 200 years. Which part of India is still Indian?

[Surya_Deva]

Indian Industry was labour intensive Surya. And labour was exploited. I remember when I was young, the labour at my ancestral home in Kerala were paid next to nothing for toiling the whole day on the land. A few cups of coffee and a meal plus whatever little money my Granddad felt like paying. The scene on the industrial belt was the same.

You are still talking about post-colonial times here when Indian industrial culture had been replaced by Western industrial culture. Western industrial culture indeed is exploitative because it is aimed at the generation of profit, which necessitates the undercutting of labour costs. In pre-colonial times it was not like this, Indian goods were produced using traditional methods and only enough goods were produced to sustain Indian society. In other words the philosophy here is not one of exploitating labour and generating profit, but one of functionalism.

This is the difference between Indian culture and Western culture. Indian culture is a functional society and Western culture is a conflict society. Indians only produced enough goods to meet the functional requirements of their society, and because there was no emphasis on mass production, more and more resources could be allocated to the production of high quality goods. Hence why Indians goods were of exceptional quality.

Indian society was full of very skilled labour in pre-colonial times, but when the British abolished India’s traditional crafts and industries, they were left unemployed and had to resort to out of the need to survive menial jobs and agrian industry. The statistics actually show clearly that India was a more industrial economy in pre-colonial times, than it is today.

I would think that Indan products like silk and handicrafts (which are very high quality) were regarded well, but production numbers were pathetic because of the methodology of production. To take the example that you have given Steel. Yes India used to manufacture excellent steel- witness the famous Thanjavur Cannon. Some of the best swords in the world are rumoured to have used Indian Steel. Granted all that, but this was all labour intensive and produced low quantities. The paradigm shift took place when the Bessemer process came into place. The old methods simply were no longer viable.

You see quantity is not an issue for a society that is not looking to generate profit. A society that is looking just to meets its functional needs aims for quality rather than quantity. This is why Indian crafts, arts and industries and traditional systems are so refined, and still produce the finest goods today. If India were to revert back to these systems, but bought them up to date with modern technology, India would once again become highly prosperous.

The foundation of any society is its education system. Western education system reproduces the values of capitalism and is there to train you to become an employee. It is easy to see in India how Indians do courses in software engineering, multimedia etc, only so they can get employed by big companies. Thus Indians are bred to be materialists. The Indian education system reproduced the values of dharmic culture in order to cultivate you to become a human being. So it was compulsory to study Sanskrit grammar, Indian philosophy and logic. Imagine how India would be today if this education system was still in place. This education system in the past lead to a highly prosperous literary culture which made massive contributions in science, technology and arts. Today, India is not a pioneer in anything.

I do agree that the degree of westernisation that we are seeing in India is too high for comfort. But I also see the very strong sense of spirituality that is present in a lot of Indians including those in the modern cities like Mumbai where I spent more than a decade.

It is there for very natural reasons. Indians are poor and they want to be rich. A poor person does not strive for spirituality, they strive for material comforts. This is why it has been my consistent experience with Indians both abroad and in the homeland, of finding highly materialistic Indians. I have seldom come across an Indian that is spiritual. If you meet a random Indian on a train these are the questions you tend to get asked “What is your job, what is your salary, are you married, what is your education” I never get asked, “What is your philosophy, what are your beliefs, what are your hobbies” When I tell Indians I have a degree in Philosophy, while most Western people find it interesting, Indian people ask me condescendingly “What job can you do with a degree in philosophy”

Indians are highly materialistic people through and through. Finding spiritual Indians is like looking for a diamond amongst a sea of coal.

I think we are at a precipice- but I am sure that we will come out all the stronger for it. The next decade will see India showing the way of “Life” to other nations. We may borrow what is good from them, but we will in no way be lesser than them.

So far it is the other way around. It is Indians chasing everything Western: food, music, fashion, lifestyle, language etc etc. I don’t really see Indians teaching the West anything. Do not forget India is a developing country and the West is a developed country. It is the West that is leading India and not the other way around. Even in spirituality, the West has taken from India its Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedas and is now teaching India.

If there is anything you should take out of my critcisms of India, is not anger as Neitzsche has responded, but a resolve to put those things I am criticising in India right. Awaken India to its own traditional culture and heritage. However, you will find the effort futile, because Indians simply don’t care. It is natural: they want wealth. When they have wealth, then they will become spiritual again. But then it might be too late and Indians might be speaking Chinese

[Surya_Deva]

[QUOTE=High Wolf;49401]Hinduism will vanish from the face of this planet. A new generation of humans is coming alive, clad in a spiritual dress and blessed with long life. In future there will moreover be new religions, for good or evil, difficult to see…

Yet nobility will never vanish. I think you are too afraid of losing the spiritual anticipation provided by Hinduism. Have some faith in the world, in tree, in rock, in sea, in clouds… there are other forces in work in this world…unfathomable forces…[/QUOTE]

It is impossible Hinduism could ever completely vanish from this planet. As long as humans are on this planet, Hinduism will remain. As Hinduism is the human religion. It is a religion where the human is at the centre.

The natural human religion addresses the human self and the development of the human. As long as humans are on this planet, they will constantly strive for development and therefore one day discover Hinduism themselves. Such as discover the methods of Yoga, the truths of Atman and Brahman, karma and reincarnation, dharma and Samkhya.

Science naturally leads to Hinduism. It is inevitable a scientific society will sooner or later discover Hinduism.

[Surya_Deva]

Not to sound like a broken record player, but Hinduism is not limited to any geography. It has no chosen people. It has no founder. It has no clergy. Just as science is not limited to any geography, has no chosen people and has no clergy. Hinduism and science are one and the same thing. Just as science belongs to all of humanity, Hinduism belongs to all of humanity.

In Hindu records itself it records the rise and fall of civilisations throughout the yugas. The centres of the world are constantly changing. If at one time the centre was the Native Americans, then at another time it was India, at another time it was the Middle East and today it is the West. Tomorrow it maybe China(indeed this is what Chinese want) This is why one should not become too attached to a particular centre. One should emphasise with their wider human identity. In this life you are born an Indian Neitzsche, in the next life you maybe born Chinese. Why waste your time and energy on such temporal things?

What did Krishna say to Arjuna in the Gita regarding temporal attachments to earthly things? That they are not worth the worry. They are temporal and changing because this is verily the nature of material reality. If you base your life and your decisions on what is temporal and changing then they you will surely suffer. Instead, base your life and decisions on the eternal. That which does not change. Santana dharma. Rather than wasting all your time and energy on just one country, contribute that same energy to bringing dharma on this planet again. The Vedas say very clearly, “Make the whole world Aryan” Why are you only interested in India? Is India the entire world?

[Nietzsche]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49476]Hehe, Neitzsche. I knew we were going to clash on this point at some point. That is fine it will prove to the forum we do not just blindly follow each other, but have our own unique and critical mind.

I am not Hindutva, because I do not believe in nationalism. I am a true Santana dharmin and Vedic Aryan in that I accept the universal human religion. In fact it is safe to my religion is humanity. I am not Indian. I am a human being. In my many lives I may have assumed countless identities: English, African, Chinese, Native American and Indian. What is common to all? Humanity.

At your age I also use to strongly cling onto national identity and see myself strongly as Indian. Then over time, I matured. I realised that first and foremost I was human. And I was part of a wider human family. My sense of self expanded to encompass all humanity and not just one geographical reigion.

You are blinded by patriotism for India to see the obvious flaws in Indian society and the obvious merits of Western society. I have no such bias because I have no patriotism for any nation. I have shared empathy though with the rest of humanity. I want humanity to progress, and not just one region to progress.

You trumpet India’s so called rising? Rising towards what? India is at a stage that America was at a few decades ago. It is developing a middle class of consumers who want pubs and bars, multiplexes, gadgets and all the underpinings of what America’s common man has today. And where is America today? At the brink of economic, social and philosophical collapse. Is this what India wants? India is going through exactly the same process America went through where the rich are getting very rich and powerful and the gap between the rich and the poor is widening. Sure, for the rich upper class Indian India is rising for sure, but for the 70% of Indians who cannot afford their lifestyle, barely any benefit is accuring. They still live mostly in rural and underdeveloped areas without adequate electricity, clean drinking water and proper education.

Can you really say India is in great position when everyday a terrorist attack take places in the country? Where in every state there is a succession and separatist movement? When it is surrounded by enemies on all sides: Pakistan, China, Bangladesh. To the realist India is in an alarming situation.
The fact is clear and it was recently in the news as well that China claims the entire state of Arunchal Pradesh as “South Tibet” It has built high speed railways to this region and recently conducted exercise where tens of thousands of troops were immediately mobilized on the Indian border directly from Beijing. This is a clear indicator of war preparations. The war rhetoric has even started with Chinese troops regularly making incursions into the territory and marking the territory as Chinese. Chinese warships regularly sail into Indian waters to undermine the Indian psyche.

Indian military strategic experts can see what is brewing between India and China, even if you cannot. You have misplaced confidence that the West would run to the aid of India if China attacked, but actually the West is just as scared of China as everybody else. They would not risk a war with China for the sake of India. Be realistic.

Regarding Indis vs West today in spirituality. In which part of the part is the most cutting edge research being done into consciousness studies? The West. The field of transpersonal psychology is full of Western psychologists and reseachers and major Western universities are now seriously doing research in this. In which part of the world has parapsychological sciences, OBE and NDE research been done? The West. Which part of the world has the most human and civil rights movemenets? The West.

I am sorry I am not blind, I can clearly see that the West leads in world spirituality today and is doing the most research in this field. Hence why the new-age movement, which is a spiritual revolution in its infancy is taking place in the West and not in India. India is a developing country; the West is a developed country.

Virtually every Indian I have met is highly materialistic. It is easy to see by just walking into a bookshop in India. The bookshop is full of books on how to pass your exams, engineering, computing, programming, medicine. In the wee corner there is a section on mind-body and spirit that nobody barely goes to. In a Western bookshop, the mind body section is massive, because there is a market for it.

I often have to teach Indians what their own religion, culture, way of life and history was. Most are not interested and tell me, “I don’t care, for me life is about making money and working” Others realise how ignorant they were all this time. Ironically, I am more likely to find a Westerner who understand karma, chakras, astral body and meditates etc, than I am an Indian.

India is a sinking ship mate. It has been culturally dead for the last 200 years. Which part of India is still Indian?[/quote]

I see your point. However, you are mistaken in thinking that most Indians want pubs and etc. Most of the Indians [B]I know[/B] are dedicated and hard working people. They may act American around Americans but they sure as hell act as Indians otherwise. Most of the Indians I have seen in Hyderabad are much the same. Most of the Indians my extended family (who live all over India btw) comes across are much the same. Regional variations perhaps?

Besides, I notice how you keep citing your personal experiences of other Indians as evidence for the cultural, ethical, and religious stagnation of the country as a whole. Do you honestly know all 1.1 Billion Indians? Where are the statistics that most Indians are debauching themselves by indulging in typical night life activities? And how are you sure that your statistics are true? Do the people who take such statistics have experimental designs for reducing biases and accounting for variation? What kind of sample selection method was utilized? An SRS of city slums? A stratified random sample of Bombay (including THAT district)?

As for India’s supposed weakness, you are wrong. Pakistan and Bangladesh are in no position to be attacking anyone in their state. Idiots Muslims like the ones in Pakistan and Bangladesh talk like they are other Saladins or Suleimans, but they have nothing to show for it. The Indian military is superior to Pakistan’s and Bangladesh’s “military.”

Links and sources for the supposed Chinese preparation of a war against India? Links and sources that do not exaggerate and sentimentalize the issue please? I too have heard of these preparations for war. I know that the Chinese are still claiming Northern parts of India as “South Tibet.” I have also heard the diplomatic agreements between India and China and the lessening economic and political tensions between these nations.

You misunderstood me. I did not mean to say that the West world would save our behinds. I meant to say that the Western world would use the event of an attack on India by China as an excuse to beat back and weaken China. They could care less about India; they just want to regain their status quo.

Besides, the Chinese have nothing to gain from wasting money on conquering a nation filled with “soy-sauce-colored savages.”

Really? Have you been to every bookstore in India and noticed the same thing? A few weeks ago, my dad just returned from India and remarked that there was a wonderful and popular new bookstore with books on yoga, philosophy, and etc (he even bought a few books himself and I saw a couple of them when I was helping unpack his suitcase). On the other hand, in the bookstores here (which I frequent a lot), the section on religion is just a shelf wide. Almost every slot is filled with theology and Christianity books with 3 slots left over for “Eastern religions” (most of which are covered with books on Chinese thought). The philosophy section is filled with books on Western philosophy, except for one shelf. And what is in that shelf? Books by Deepak Chopra (:roll:). In fact, on any given day, I see more people in the “Sexuality” section than in the religion or philosophy section.

The research you cite is nice and all but how accepted or prevalent is it? I have yet to see such a thing in our textbooks and most of the Western society does not know or care. I certainly never hear anything about these advances on the news. When the masses of the West denounce even well established theories like the BBT by saying “Something can’t come from nothing,” you know something is wrong Surya.

Civil Rights activism? The fact that the West has the most humanistic and civil rights movements is a very indication of its tumultuous society. Do changes come? Nominally. I live in the Deep South portions of America and let me tell you, black people still get treated like shit (even the media portrays them negatively). The only reason white people keep their mouths shut about it is because they don’t want to get jacked by a gang or beat up by a portly black man. What about women you might ask? Well too many Americans are busy being womanizers and having sex to care about antiquated gender norms. Why do you think America has a 50% divorce rate? Why do you see many sexually charged comments by Yogi Adam and Indra Deva, who are as spiritually advanced as they claim to be?

Even if all you said was true, would you just let 1.1 billion Indians wipe themselves out and not do anything about it? Would you turn back on your own race under the guise of claiming to be “human” and having no national allegiance (again, you still can’t deny you were born an Indian) and let them get slaughtered and raped by enemy countries? Would you make no effort to ameliorate the lives of Indians, a group which is comprised of humans who are as human as any other and a group which is oppressed like no other? I don’t know about you, but I certainly plan to do so. I do not plan to waste my time helping those who are already at the top of the world, are as snobby as hell, and care more about their economic and political power.

[Nietzsche]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49479]…It is there for very natural reasons. Indians are poor and they want to be rich. A poor person does not strive for spirituality, they strive for material comforts. This is why it has been my consistent experience with Indians both abroad and in the homeland, of finding highly materialistic Indians. I have seldom come across an Indian that is spiritual. If you meet a random Indian on a train these are the questions you tend to get asked “What is your job, what is your salary, are you married, what is your education” I never get asked, “What is your philosophy, what are your beliefs, what are your hobbies” When I tell Indians I have a degree in Philosophy, while most Western people find it interesting, Indian people ask me condescendingly “What job can you do with a degree in philosophy”

Indians are highly materialistic people through and through. Finding spiritual Indians is like looking for a diamond amongst a sea of coal.

So far it is the other way around. It is Indians chasing everything Western: food, music, fashion, lifestyle, language etc etc. I don’t really see Indians teaching the West anything. Do not forget India is a developing country and the West is a developed country. It is the West that is leading India and not the other way around. Even in spirituality, the West has taken from India its Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedas and is now teaching India.

If there is anything you should take out of my critcisms of India, is not anger as Neitzsche has responded, but a resolve to put those things I am criticising in India right. Awaken India to its own traditional culture and heritage. However, you will find the effort futile, because Indians simply don’t care. It is natural: they want wealth. When they have wealth, then they will become spiritual again. But then it might be too late and Indians might be speaking Chinese :D[/QUOTE]

I did not mean to sound like I was angry. Truthfully, I was more shocked than anything else.

Oh I know exactly what you mean (the story about the Indian on a train). Of course the person responded that way; in a nation with impoverished people but with high work ethics and a sense of honor, what else did you expect? Such a work ethic is good!

Surya, did you know my family is descended from Rajputs? But by the time it got down to my grandfather, he was alone. Literally. His entire family was murdered, and he was orphaned at a very young age. His extended family took all his family fortune (which he didn’t know about since he was so young), made him work like a indentured servant on their farm, and then released him off on a train station with no money and food and just a change of clothes. From there, he eventually worked his way up and to the top of Indian society in Hyderabad. These are the kind of situations that most Indians go through Surya. And do you think a degree in philosophy could have helped him take care of 4 sons and a wife and raised his salary from 25 rupees a day? Of course these Indians are materialistically minded. But make no mistake Surya, they still retain strong ties to their cultural heritage. My grandfather is still a devout Hindu, and so are his sons (my father and his brothers). It is just that you cannot have a spiritual life without succeeding materially.

And this is what is happening SD. You yourself said that (albeit with a facetious remark on India speaking Chinese :D).

Besides, my father is the CEO of a consulting company. He employs Indians from India. He knows the statistics and motivations of the Indians who come here. He says the nowadays, his company his somewhat suffering since most Indians he knows and occasionally employs simply go back to India after a few years, convert their earnings into rupees, and roll in piles of Gitas and money.

[kareng]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49378]I strongly believe in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Self-actualization follows from meeting your other needs. Note that spirituality only thrived in India when it was materially prosperous, and today when it is not, it has become a safe haven for corruption and superstition. The West was once like India was today, a safe haven for corruption and superstition until it became materially prosperous.

India has regressed and the West has progressed. Before you can make India spiritual again you need to make it materially prosperous. This is the attitude of Indians too, they care little to hear about spirituality, because they are motivated by material desires. They want, like the West does, middle class houses, cars, computers, mobile phones, pubs and clubs, multiplexes. It is very clear to see that Indians follow after the West, because the West has what they want. They emulate everything about the West, including all its flaws.

On the other hand, a sizable amount of people in the West want spirituality. They want what ancient India had. They are the ones driving research into consciousness studies, meditation, yoga, parapsychology and spending handsomely on this. Most of the cutting edge research in spirituality is coming from the West, not India. This is why if you want to contribute to spirituality, you need to contribute where your contributions will be heard. You need to forget about India, India is a virtually extinct country and has been dead for the last 1000 years when the Mughals invaded and destroyed its warrior class. Then the British invaded and destroyed the academic class. It started dying 5000 years ago. The India of today is a hybrid of old India, Mughal India and British India, with the latter aspects being more preponderant.

In all likeliness India is going to be destroyed by China and Pakistan. If tomorrow a world war started, India would be had by the combined forces of China and Pakistan. China has been planning an invasion of India for a decade now and it has mobilized troops on the borders of India and encircled it. India is its own enemy today because it is fragmented into several groups: castes, regions, languages, religions, ideologies. It is ripe for another invasion and this invasion will be the last invasion.

I am not an enemy of India as you obviously know, but I am simply making you aware of how hopeless a cause India is today. It is better not wasting your energy and time, the country is done for. This is why I am emphasising that you must keep Hinduism alive in the world and to do so you must do it via the West, which is currently in the process of globalization and spiritual revolution. If we can cause a spiritual revolution in the West then we can have a spiritual globalization. This is where the Hindus in the world must play a role.

Sanatana dharma is bigger than India. It is time Sanatana dharma spreads across the world again. Why do you think so many gurus are setting up base in the West? Why was Swami Viveakananda and Swami Yogananda told to go to the West? This is because the West is now the leader of the world. It is from the West that the revolution will come.[/QUOTE]

Ahhh, parts of this are sad to read Surya…

[Nietzsche]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49479]…It is there for very natural reasons. Indians are poor and they want to be rich. A poor person does not strive for spirituality, they strive for material comforts. This is why it has been my consistent experience with Indians both abroad and in the homeland, of finding highly materialistic Indians. I have seldom come across an Indian that is spiritual. If you meet a random Indian on a train these are the questions you tend to get asked “What is your job, what is your salary, are you married, what is your education” I never get asked, [B]“What is your philosophy, what are your beliefs, what are your hobbies”[/B] When I tell Indians I have a degree in Philosophy, while most Western people find it interesting, Indian people ask me condescendingly “What job can you do with a degree in philosophy”

Indians are highly materialistic people through and through. Finding spiritual Indians is like looking for a diamond amongst a sea of coal.

So far it is the other way around. It is Indians chasing everything Western: food, music, fashion, lifestyle, language etc etc. I don’t really see Indians teaching the West anything. Do not forget India is a developing country and the West is a developed country. It is the West that is leading India and not the other way around. Even in spirituality, the West has taken from India its Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedas and is now teaching India.

If there is anything you should take out of my critcisms of India, is not anger as Neitzsche has responded, but a resolve to put those things I am criticising in India right. Awaken India to its own traditional culture and heritage. However, you will find the effort futile, because Indians simply don’t care. It is natural: they want wealth. When they have wealth, then they will become spiritual again. But then it might be too late and Indians might be speaking Chinese :D[/QUOTE]

I think that statement is a bit too harsh. What else do you expect a person to ask after getting to know him for 5 minutes? It is kind of like expecting a hormonal teenager to say something else besides “Do you think that girl is hot?”

[Surya_Deva]

I see your point. However, you are mistaken in thinking that most Indians want pubs and etc.
Most of the Indians I know are dedicated and hard working people.

These are not mutually exclusive things Neitzsche. I do not at all deny that Indians have a very strong work ethic. They are very similar to how Western people were many decades ago, because they understand that the only way to succeed in this capitalist world is to work very hard and get an education. Since, these values have degenerated in Western society because people have achieived their comforts and have started to take their comforts for granted. On the other hand, people in third world countries do not take these things for granted and work very hard. This ties into Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Those who have the material comforts, want more than material comforts. Those who do not have the material comforts, strive for material comforts.

Spirituality does not thrive in poor countries. Every poor country in this world has some things in common: corruption, illiteracy, superstition and materialism. Again, it needs to be pointed out the most spiritual civilisation on this Earth were the Hindus and they were also the most wealthiest civilisation on Earth until the 18th century. When their wealth was gone, what happened? They lost their spirituality.

Spirituality will never take afoot in India until Indians have material comforts. This is why it is a futile trying to spiritualize Indians. They simply will not listen to you. If I go to a poor chaiwala on the streets of Mumbai and teach him Yoga and Vedanta, he will simply tell me, "Sir, thank you, but I don't have time for Yoga and Vedanta" There is a saying, "Do not throw pearls before swines" and "Do not play the flute in front of the bull" Indians are not receptive at this stage to receive spirituality. When they reach the material comforts, then they will become receptive again.

Pubs, bars and clubs, malls, multiplexe etc are appearing all over the landscape of India. I have been to many myself. It is very clear India is becoming a fully fledged consumerist society exactly how the West was a few decades ago.

Besides, I notice how you keep citing your personal experiences of other Indians as evidence for the cultural, ethical, and religious stagnation of the country as a whole. Do you honestly know all 1.1 Billion Indians? Where are the statistics that most Indians are debauching themselves by indulging in typical night life activities? And how are you sure that your statistics are true? Do the people who take such statistics have experimental designs for reducing biases and accounting for variation? What kind of sample selection method was utilized? An SRS of city slums? A stratified random sample of Bombay (including THAT district)?

No, I do not know 1.1 Billion Indians. But what I do know is my own experiences and the experiences of others who have been to India. In addition I also know about the statistics which show human development and India is one of the lowest. Indeed, it is true most Indians are not indulging in night life activities, because most cannot afford it. It is the rising middle class that is doing this. Those who can afford it, such as upper-middle class youth do indeed frequent pubs, bars, malls and multiplexies. There is a market for them this is why they are appearing all over the cities of India. There is no market for them in rural places, hence there are none there. The rural people do of course dream of city-life.

India very much is like what America was like a few decades ago. When the middle class was emerging the rural population migrated into the cities in order to chase the "American dream" Now Indians are too chasing the "American dream" What is happening is perfectly natural human psychology. Indians are poor - they want to be rich.

As for India's supposed weakness, you are wrong. Pakistan and Bangladesh are in no position to be attacking anyone in their state. Idiots Muslims like the ones in Pakistan and Bangladesh talk like they are other Saladins or Suleimans, but they have nothing to show for it. The Indian military is superior to Pakistan's and Bangladesh's "military."

Nope, they are in no position to attack India by themselves. However, if there was a Chinese-Indian war, they would be in a position to join in. It is more or less a given that if India goes to war with either China, Pakistan or Bangladesh, that the others would form an alliance agaisnt India.

Links and sources for the supposed Chinese preparation of a war against India?

I will give you links by geopolitical and military experts which show clearly the evidence is pointing towards a Chinese-Indian war:

Geo-Strategic Chessboard: War Between India and China? - Global Research

http://www.examiner.com/ny-in-new-york/india-is-preparing-for-possible-war-with-china-and-pakistan
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/12/31/alert-indian-army-ready-for-war-against-china-and-pakistan-simultaneously/

China wary of India's military might: US | India News - Times of India

Random articles:
http://newsflavor.com/opinions/china-preparing-for-a-war-against-india-and-us/
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Indian+ex-defense+chief+accuses+China+of+preparing+for+war.-a0242100866

The evidence is clearly pointing to a two-front war of China and Pakistan(with obvious help from Bangladesh) against India. India would have to defend both its northen border against Pakistan and its eastern border with China and Bangladesh simultaneously. It does not stand a chance.

This will not be only a regional war though, this will more than certainly embroil the rest of the world. We are basically seeing the beginnings of World War III. India, the past centre of the world will be completely wiped out.

You misunderstood me. I did not mean to say that the West world would save our behinds. I meant to say that the Western world would use the event of an attack on India by China as an excuse to beat back and weaken China. They could care less about India; they just want to regain their status quo.

Exactly, a war between India and China, will somehow get the Western world involved, because India is now a key ally of the West. They will not exactly run to its aid, but they will get involved because India falling under Chinese occupation would give China an unprecedented edge in global power which would simply be unacceptable to the Western powers as it would spell their demise.

Really? Have you been to every bookstore in India and noticed the same thing? A few weeks ago, my dad just returned from India and remarked that there was a wonderful and popular new bookstore with books on yoga, philosophy, and etc (he even bought a few books himself and I saw a couple of them when I was helping unpack his suitcase). On the other hand, in the bookstores here (which I frequent a lot), the section on religion is just a shelf wide. Almost every slot is filled with theology and Christianity books with 3 slots left over for "Eastern religions" (most of which are covered with books on Chinese thought). The philosophy section is filled with books on Western philosophy, except for one shelf. And what is in that shelf? Books by Deepak Chopra (). In fact, on any given day, I see more people in the "Sexuality" section than in the religion or philosophy section.

Yes, it is obvious the religious section in a Western bookship would be filled with Abrahamic stuff, because it is their own tradition. However, there is also a large section on what is termed mind-body and spirit or basically new-age spirituality which is signicantly large because there is a market for it. In India, the section on Yoga and philosophy is quite small, because there is no market for it. The section on engineering, physics, medicine, mathematics, business and programming is massive though. Agaiin, because Indians are highly materialistic people.

The research you cite is nice and all but how accepted or prevalent is it? I have yet to see such a thing in our textbooks and most of the Western society does not know or care. I certainly never hear anything about these advances on the news. When the masses of the West denounce even well established theories like the BBT by saying "Something can't come from nothing," you know something is wrong Surya.

It is prevalent enough to be making an impact on the mainstream now. It can be seen very clearly in Western society how much the new-age movement is starting to change the landscape of the West. In fact notice the media itself, the increased frequency of paranormal programming on television: ghost investigations, magic and its representation in mainstream movies. In academia, univerisities as big as Stanford research institute commision research into parapsychology. Slowly, but surely, the West is spiritualizing.
It is consistent with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Once you have satisified your material comforts you tend towards spirituality. This is why I keep saying it is inevitable that the world will become Hindu sooner or later.

Civil Rights activism? The fact that the West has the most humanistic and civil rights movements is a very indication of its tumultuous society. Do changes come? Nominally. I live in the Deep South portions of America and let me tell you, black people still get treated like shit (even the media portrays them negatively). The only reason white people keep their mouths shut about it is because they don't want to get jacked by a gang or beat up by a portly black man. What about women you might ask? Well too many Americans are busy being womanizers and having sex to care about antiquated gender norms. Why do you think America has a 50% divorce rate? Why do you see many sexually charged comments by Yogi Adam and Indra Deva, who are as spiritually advanced as they claim to be?

No, the fact that there are civil and humanistic movements within the West is an indication that the need for change and social progress is acknowledged in the West and it is happening gradually. This is why in the course of the 20th century there have been massive changes such as the sexual revolution, counter-cultural movement, feminist movement. This indeed leads to the fragmentation of the family, debauchery and high divorce rates, but out of this chaos comes a reordering of society. On the other hand, in societies like India, where there are rampant problems with of gender inequality, caste discrimination, the recognition for social change is not there, which means that change does not take place as rapidly. This is why India has been able to retain its conservative values. But this landscape is now changing with the rise of the middle class.

Even if all you said was true, would you just let 1.1 billion Indians wipe themselves out and not do anything about it? Would you turn back on your own race under the guise of claiming to be "human" and having no national allegiance (again, you still can't deny you were born an Indian) and let them get slaughtered and raped by enemy countries? Would you make no effort to ameliorate the lives of Indians, a group which is comprised of humans who are as human as any other and a group which is oppressed like no other? I don't know about you, but I certainly plan to do so. I do not plan to waste my time helping those who are already at the top of the world, are as snobby as hell, and care more about their economic and political power.

Neitzsche, my race is the human race. There is no such thing as Indian race, Western race, African race, Chinese race. We are all the same species: humanity. Then surely the plight of humanity is more important than the plight of the West, Africans, Chinese or Indians? I am looking at the bigger problems that face the world that is common most of the world: capitalism and the Abrahamic ideology it is associated with.
I recognise what is wrong with this world today and that is the world has become overrun with a desert culture and mentality. This culture and mentality needs to be exposed and be rid of once and for all. Then out of this process of destruction will come the creation of a new social order based on a scientific ethos - or basically a dharmic ethos.

India is not at all the solution to this, because India is perhaps one of the biggest proponents of this desert culture and mentality today. It celeberates capitalism and is unabashedly capitalist and this clear from every institution in Indian society - even the temples. Capitalists are seen as heroes in India. Saying something bad against capitalism in India is almost a thought crime. This is why India cannot be changed until it has explores its dreams for wealth(which will most likely be cut short by China)

Where change can happen is where the most progress can be seen on the planet - the West. The West are sick of capitalism themselves, and I know this is true because there is a sizable group of Western people who are rising against capitalism. Hence the riots taking place in the West. They are rejecting their Abrahamic religions and embracing Eastern dharmic religions. They are ripe for a spiritual revolution. Join the revolution. Through the West the revolution will come. Our gurus know this and hence why they have each set up their operations in the West. America will be the new spiritual centre of the world for the future. The old is about to destroyed - and India will be the first to go.

[Nietzsche]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49588]These are not mutually exclusive things Neitzsche. I do not at all deny that Indians have a very strong work ethic. They are very similar to how Western people were many decades ago, because they understand that the only way to succeed in this capitalist world is to work very hard and get an education. Since, these values have degenerated in Western society because people have achieived their comforts and have started to take their comforts for granted. On the other hand, people in third world countries do not take these things for granted and work very hard. This ties into Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Those who have the material comforts, want more than material comforts. Those who do not have the material comforts, strive for material comforts.

Spirituality does not thrive in poor countries. Every poor country in this world has some things in common: corruption, illiteracy, superstition and materialism. Again, it needs to be pointed out the most spiritual civilisation on this Earth were the Hindus and they were also the most wealthiest civilisation on Earth until the 18th century. When their wealth was gone, what happened? They lost their spirituality.

Spirituality will never take afoot in India until Indians have material comforts. This is why it is a futile trying to spiritualize Indians. They simply will not listen to you. If I go to a poor chaiwala on the streets of Mumbai and teach him Yoga and Vedanta, he will simply tell me, "Sir, thank you, but I don't have time for Yoga and Vedanta" There is a saying, "Do not throw pearls before swines" and "Do not play the flute in front of the bull" Indians are not receptive at this stage to receive spirituality. When they reach the material comforts, then they will become receptive again.

Pubs, bars and clubs, malls, multiplexe etc are appearing all over the landscape of India. I have been to many myself. It is very clear India is becoming a fully fledged consumerist society exactly how the West was a few decades ago.

No, I do not know 1.1 Billion Indians. But what I do know is my own experiences and the experiences of others who have been to India. In addition I also know about the statistics which show human development and India is one of the lowest. Indeed, it is true most Indians are not indulging in night life activities, because most cannot afford it. It is the rising middle class that is doing this. Those who can afford it, such as upper-middle class youth do indeed frequent pubs, bars, malls and multiplexies. There is a market for them this is why they are appearing all over the cities of India. There is no market for them in rural places, hence there are none there. The rural people do of course dream of city-life.

India very much is like what America was like a few decades ago. When the middle class was emerging the rural population migrated into the cities in order to chase the "American dream" Now Indians are too chasing the "American dream" What is happening is perfectly natural human psychology. Indians are poor - they want to be rich.

Nope, they are in no position to attack India by themselves. However, if there was a Chinese-Indian war, they would be in a position to join in. It is more or less a given that if India goes to war with either China, Pakistan or Bangladesh, that the others would form an alliance agaisnt India.

I will give you links by geopolitical and military experts which show clearly the evidence is pointing towards a Chinese-Indian war:

Geo-Strategic Chessboard: War Between India and China? - Global Research

http://www.examiner.com/ny-in-new-york/india-is-preparing-for-possible-war-with-china-and-pakistan
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/12/31/alert-indian-army-ready-for-war-against-china-and-pakistan-simultaneously/

China wary of India's military might: US | India News - Times of India

Random articles:
http://newsflavor.com/opinions/china-preparing-for-a-war-against-india-and-us/
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Indian+ex-defense+chief+accuses+China+of+preparing+for+war.-a0242100866

The evidence is clearly pointing to a two-front war of China and Pakistan(with obvious help from Bangladesh) against India. India would have to defend both its northen border against Pakistan and its eastern border with China and Bangladesh simultaneously. It does not stand a chance.

This will not be only a regional war though, this will more than certainly embroil the rest of the world. We are basically seeing the beginnings of World War III. India, the past centre of the world will be completely wiped out.

Exactly, a war between India and China, will somehow get the Western world involved, because India is now a key ally of the West. They will not exactly run to its aid, but they will get involved because India falling under Chinese occupation would give China an unprecedented edge in global power which would simply be unacceptable to the Western powers as it would spell their demise.

Yes, it is obvious the religious section in a Western bookship would be filled with Abrahamic stuff, because it is their own tradition. However, there is also a large section on what is termed mind-body and spirit or basically new-age spirituality which is signicantly large because there is a market for it. In India, the section on Yoga and philosophy is quite small, because there is no market for it. The section on engineering, physics, medicine, mathematics, business and programming is massive though. Agaiin, because Indians are highly materialistic people.

It is prevalent enough to be making an impact on the mainstream now. It can be seen very clearly in Western society how much the new-age movement is starting to change the landscape of the West. In fact notice the media itself, the increased frequency of paranormal programming on television: ghost investigations, magic and its representation in mainstream movies. In academia, univerisities as big as Stanford research institute commision research into parapsychology. Slowly, but surely, the West is spiritualizing.
It is consistent with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Once you have satisified your material comforts you tend towards spirituality. This is why I keep saying it is inevitable that the world will become Hindu sooner or later.

No, the fact that there are civil and humanistic movements within the West is an indication that the need for change and social progress is acknowledged in the West and it is happening gradually. This is why in the course of the 20th century there have been massive changes such as the sexual revolution, counter-cultural movement, feminist movement. This indeed leads to the fragmentation of the family, debauchery and high divorce rates, but out of this chaos comes a reordering of society. On the other hand, in societies like India, where there are rampant problems with of gender inequality, caste discrimination, the recognition for social change is not there, which means that change does not take place as rapidly. This is why India has been able to retain its conservative values. But this landscape is now changing with the rise of the middle class.

Neitzsche, my race is the human race. There is no such thing as Indian race, Western race, African race, Chinese race. We are all the same species: humanity. Then surely the plight of humanity is more important than the plight of the West, Africans, Chinese or Indians? I am looking at the bigger problems that face the world that is common most of the world: capitalism and the Abrahamic ideology it is associated with.
I recognise what is wrong with this world today and that is the world has become overrun with a desert culture and mentality. This culture and mentality needs to be exposed and be rid of once and for all. Then out of this process of destruction will come the creation of a new social order based on a scientific ethos - or basically a dharmic ethos.

India is not at all the solution to this, because India is perhaps one of the biggest proponents of this desert culture and mentality today. It celeberates capitalism and is unabashedly capitalist and this clear from every institution in Indian society - even the temples. Capitalists are seen as heroes in India. Saying something bad against capitalism in India is almost a thought crime. This is why India cannot be changed until it has explores its dreams for wealth(which will most likely be cut short by China)

Where change can happen is where the most progress can be seen on the planet - the West. The West are sick of capitalism themselves, and I know this is true because there is a sizable group of Western people who are rising against capitalism. Hence the riots taking place in the West. They are rejecting their Abrahamic religions and embracing Eastern dharmic religions. They are ripe for a spiritual revolution. Join the revolution. Through the West the revolution will come. Our gurus know this and hence why they have each set up their operations in the West. America will be the new spiritual centre of the world for the future. The old is about to destroyed - and India will be the first to go.[/QUOTE]

Precisely. So how can you question the reverse trend in Western society, where ignorance, hedonism, and decline in morals and spirituality are taking place? The West is not immune to such things Surya. It is clear to me though that you have experienced a far different slice of the West than I have.

They might have lost their spirituality but most certainly not their potential for spirituality. Indians have the unique propensity for being spiritual, even more so than any other race in the world. This temperament is on the rise once again Surya Deva. The middle class often has the most debauched and the most spiritually and intellectually craving people. The same was true of America back in the days of its Industrial Revolution and of any society in general. It is this characteristic I have noticed the most in Indians these days. It is clear that we have experienced different slices of India as well.

And do you think I will get different results if I did the same thing with a sexually starved teenager? He will probably say “Nah, girls are just too hot.” Once again, you fail to account for the fact that since the West is jaded with material comforts, spirituality is on the decline. It is often the rapidly developing countries (provided that their cultures and political systems are receptive enough cough China cough) that have the greatest potential for spirituality. If the same thing was done to the poor man, but this time by someone who took the effort to ameliorate his life, he would probably listen.

What other choice does India have in this matter? It cannot hope to compete with the rest of the world with an idealistic political and economic system. You remind me too much of those many Americans who attempted to start utopian societies (but failed miserably in the end; one such community ended up becoming a capitalist company for the manufacture of kitchen utensils).

I also know my own experiences and the experiences of others who have been to India. You see my family is one of the richest ones in Hyderabad. They are well known throughout the city and even have many connections with those who run the city (one of my uncles is the head of some department there). They too are privy to such statistics Surya. My family runs many businesses and come across a far greater variety of Indians than you can imagine. Any given middle classes is most hedonistic and yet intellectually/spiritually craving class of society. I hear many reports of how exciting the recent festival was, or the pleasant surprise a visiting swami caused, how popular the recent Yoga-fair-thing was, and what not. Once again, can you provide me valid statistics that prove your point? Sure, India may have one of the lowest human development conditions, but it also has some of the fastest human development rates. It is just that the number of poor people in India makes it hard to perceive such differences on a short scale.

Agreed.

Oh yes, this I cannot deny.

I will look at the links when I have time sometime during the day.

And it is also obvious that considering I live in one of the most highly sought after communities in the U.S (with a very rich population and what not), something is wrong. According to you, the bookshelves should be filled with books on spirituality, considering these people are materially satisfied. This is not the case. The religion and philosophy section are the most lacking sections in terms of the content and the number of people who visit the section. On any given day, I am the only one who is in this section. Besides, I knew this girl at school whose mom ran a Bikram Yoga class at the local mall. It is one of the most highly visited places in the community. And yet most of the people I came across in the community are woefully ignorant of Hinduism and Indian culture. Even the girl in question once asked me “Do you worship a mutant god?” Once again, regional variations.

The fascination for the paranormal has always been there in Western media. And, there is a point where people get tired of classic monster movies and television programming. Such a shift is not indicative of a transformation but of a trend with a boom and bust cycle. Besides, the thing I see most of the time in American programming is 2012, end-of-the-world crap, biblical apocalypse, and what not. Again, it’s a trend bound to die out some time or another. And I could have sworn I saw you say “Those who have the material comforts, want more than material comforts,” a statement in direct contradiction with “Once you have satisfied your material comforts you tend towards spirituality.” Regardless, the latter is a false statement. When civilizations reach their climax, they tend to decline in every way possible. It happened with China, Rome, India, Greece, and so forth. The West is no exception.

But why do such movements arise? It is because the West has tumultuous societies and dogmatic ideals in the first place. And such changes are not acknowledged when they happen. The Industrial Giants in America did not acknowledge the formation of labor unions, movements for a shorter work time, more wages, and other worker’s rights since it supposedly would have been detrimental to their accumulation of wealth. American society did not acknowledge the abolitionists movements in America and actually labeled them as “disrupters of peace.” Southern society did not acknowledge the Civil Rights movement of Martin Luther King and did everything it could to undermine it. The male-dominated society did not approve of women’s rights for centuries and certainly did not acknowledge the women’s protests for voting rights. In fact, the problem in the West is that such changes are not welcome and acknowledged in their times. They are fought tooth-and-nail and to the last breath by the oppressed who are sick of their centuries of oppression. In fact, only when the oppressed manage to get their representatives in the political system and get the public to side with them (but that rarely happens since such protests always annoy the masses) does any change arise. Then they are slowly accepted. Very slowly. Even today, many whites I come in across in the Deep South still view blacks as stupid, barbaric, and etc. As for India, the landscape is indeed changing, and very quickly because the tendency for change in our society is ingrained (how many religious reforms have we had so far SD? I lose count a lot) and because we were a former colonized nation that forever has to live with the reminder that they were a rich nation reduced to the depths of poverty due to their ignorance and lack of awareness. This realization will allow the country to grow, grow in a way it has never had before.

But there is such a thing. How many people do you come across that do not identify them as such? Your views are far too idealistic Surya Deva. I understand your views and know you mean well but they will make no impact whatsoever. Only when every nation and every race has risen from the abyss of squalor and oppression will the world be inclined to see and test the validity of other’s ways and go beyond the notions of “black, white, and etc.” But that day is, alas, too many a blue moon away. Your efforts to rid the world of this mentality will only go so far in our present times. The most we can do is plant the idea for now and let it germinate and flower within passing generations. The most we can do now is to intellectually impugn and weaken these ideologies. Other than that, nothing else can be done. Have you already tried going to China and telling someone “There is no White, black, Chinese, Indian, Christian…”?

I see your point. It is often the case with developing countries. Then again, a development in capitalism is not necessarily a decline in the potential for spirituality. One always has to look at the cultural and societal contexts.

The West has had a history of having groups opposed to capitalism, but where did that lead to? Communism, the main opponent, has miserably failed. Even if Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, and what not were not practicing communism as Marx envisioned it, the very idea of going against capitalism and democracy has been indelibly tainted at the idea of being associated with these failed nations. Even China, at one point, had to give up its communist roots and become capitalist. At this time, no repudiation of capitalism is possible. Even its opponents agree that capitalism is beneficial for economic growth.

Spiritual revolution? Surya, this revolution is that of societal collapse. Through the West, only chaos will come. You think this revolution will leave the economic and political systems intact while changing the religious and spiritual ideology? You are wrong. It will affect all parts of society and all walks of life. America is like Rome after its Pax Romana. It is slowly but surely falling. If this spiritual revolution comes, which I highly doubt, the winners would be starting from a state of economic and societal squalor and will ultimately fail. I would rather be associated with the developing countries that, like the new moon, have much potential to enlarge and grow (and will have in the event that such a revolution happens).

[Nietzsche]

Surya Deva, I have checked the links you posted. All of them are absolute bogus. Can you please provide [B]reputable[/B] links? For example, I don’t want to hear about a war between India and China from a website claiming Israelis concocted the plans for 9-11.

[Surya_Deva]

You obviously haven’t Neitzsche. Otherwise you would not be saying that.

I will respond to your other post in due course.

EDIT: I never take “I need a reputable source” fallacy seriously. This is a form of knowledge filtration
practiced by people to simply deny information. Indra Deva used it recently when I posted from Hindu-Wisdom.com,
even though the information was actually a compilation of citations from scholarly literature. All information one gets
from whatever source, needs to be tested, rather than dismissed of-hand.

[Nietzsche]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49928]You obviously haven’t Neitzsche. Otherwise you would not be saying that.

I will respond to your other post in due course.[/QUOTE]

Oh but I have. The first one actually showed some promise but then degenerated into far-fetched extrapolations of a world wide power struggle using antiquated Cold War references and fantasies of a Western and “Periphery” hegemony. I honestly thought the author had read too much of the “Ender’s Game” series of books. The rest of them are merely opinion articles with little citation, facts, and statistics. One of them was even an obvious Pakistani propaganda site. I knew that the moment I saw “pak” in the URL. Did you honestly expect me to believe any article on a website claiming Israelis plotted the 9-11 attacks?

I know you can do better than that. Please cite reputable sources, preferably written by figures of authority, renown, and credibility.

EDIT: A website like Hindu Wisdom does not qualify as propaganda or an unreliable source. It is merely a website dedicated to teaching others about Hinduism. There is no reason to dismiss that as false since those matters are by very nature subjective. Besides, who else can you expect to teach Hinduism the best, other than those who are already Hindus? Indra Deva is a fool so it is not surprising he would do something like that. But these are objective matters we speak of, whether China will invade India or not. Therefore, we need equally objective sources, analyzing all points of view and all angles, citing reputable sources and giving accurate statistics. I don’t need obvious propaganda sites, preying upon sentimentalism and misrepresentations to elicit a desired response, or articles written by the common man.

[Surya_Deva]

I am afraid here you are doing exactly the same thing ID did. You are dismissing not just the think tank I just posted(first link) you are dismissing every other article I cited above, including one from Times of India on that pretext.

Information is information. It must be tested to see if it is valid. Not testing information, just because you don’t like the source
is dishonest.

[Nietzsche]

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;49938]I am afraid here you are doing exactly the same thing ID did. You are dismissing not just the think tank I just posted(first link) you are dismissing every other article I cited above, including one from Times of India on that pretext.

Information is information. It must be tested to see if it is valid. Not testing information, just because you don’t like the source
is dishonest.[/QUOTE]

Information can also come in varieties. At the very least, there is good information and bad information. And rather than test to see whether this is true of any given information, we have certain criterion so as to enable the critical thinker to not waste their time. Take for example, the anti-Indian, anti-Israeli, and anti-American site you posted a link to. Because this site has very propaganda-like leanings and since propaganda always contains 1% fact and 99% trolling, we can safely repudiate the source in a heartbeat.

[Surya_Deva]

Again, you have not looked at the information above. Not all the links above are from the web sites you are refusing to look at. Here they are:

http://www.examiner.com/ny-in-new-york/india-is-preparing-for-possible-war-with-china-and-pakistan

China wary of India's military might: US | India News - Times of India

http://newsflavor.com/opinions/china-preparing-for-a-war-against-india-and-us/
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Indian+ex-defense+chief+accuses+China+of+preparing+for+war.-a0242100866

Here are even more links that you could have found very easily by following the lead I gave you and doing a simple google search:

http://www.easenews.net/china-wary-of-indias-long-range-missile-agni-v
http://www.hindustantimes.com/China-wary-of-India-US-report/Article1-588289.aspx

China | Military Conflict | Diplomatic Relations | Defence Minister

China Preparing for War in 'Every Strategic Direction'

Indian military Preparing for conventional war against Pakistan and China

http://www.timesnow.tv/Chinese-tourists-or-spies/articleshow/4363180.cms

Appeasement is the proper policy towards Confucian China

Is China now where Germany was in 1900? Possibly. There are certainly hints of menace from some quarters in Beijing. Defence minister Liang Guanglie said over New Year that China’s armed forces are “pushing forward preparations for military conflict in every strategic direction”.

Professor Huang Jing from Singapore’s Lee Kwan Yew School and a former adviser to China’s Army, said Beijing is losing its grip on the colonels.

Watch on youtube:

Indian military predict war with China by 2017:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Indian-Army-fears-attack-from-China-by-2017/Article1-393140.aspx

I will be very disappointed if you continue to ignore and/or downplay this information.
This is an alarming development of events. I will summarize exactly what is happening

1. China has recently conducted mass military exercises by mobilizing troops on the Indian border
2. China has intruded several kilometres into Indian territory, forcing the natives out by telling them it is their land and painting rocks with red Chinese letters stating it is their land. China denies it officially.
3. China has sent warships deep into Indian ocean as far as Cochin and helicopters into Indian air space recently. The first was called "a surprise good will visit" the second occurence was denied.
4. China has spent spies into India to photograph key military installations
5. China's state controlled media is now full of anti-India rheotric. Warmongering articles have been published saying China
6. Chinese media is stepping up the anti-India rhetoric. Reports include a report by a warmongering Chinese colonel who calls for splitting up India into pieces.
7. Indian military predicts a war with China by 2017
   8 ) Former Indian defence minister accuses China of advanced war preparations against India
8. Chinese defence minister says China is preparing for war in all directions in the next 5 years.
9. US intelligence reveals China sees India as a huge threat to its superpower ambitions. Indian military power will more than double in the next 5 years, China wants to curb its rise.

It is clear as day light China is preparing for war with India. The war preparations are brewing as we speak. This will be no ordinary war and nor will it be regional - this is going to spiral out to all directions. We are seeing the formative stages of WWIII unfolding right before our eyes.

[Surya_Deva]

5. China’s state controlled media is now full of anti-India rheotric. Warmongering articles have been published saying China
6. Chinese media is stepping up the anti-India rhetoric. Reports include a report by a warmongering Chinese colonel who calls for splitting up India into pieces.

Sorry there is a typo here. This is suppose to be one item.