Why is it that with yoga and Hinduism you cannot resist temptation and control yourself, and live a morally upright life? It’s not the fault of “the west” or of “capitalism” that you can’t keep your zipper up.
Hey, that was below the belt Thomas!
And yes pretty diabolical if you ask me.
They don’t meditate enough.
[QUOTE=core789;51115]Hey, that was below the belt Thomas![/QUOTE]
I think N read this the wrong way, and maybe you did too.
I was not faulting yoga, because I do think yoga can help someone lead a moral life. I think SD excuses his skirt-chasing by using yoga as an excuse to “regulate” it instead of saying no to it. And as N pointed out, some Christians do the same thing, so shame on them for being bad examples.
And if they aren’t true Christians, then what about the deal with the cardinals molesting children? I love how when Christians don’t do something in line with secular humanistic ideals, they are automatically condemned as “non-Christian.” Face it Thomas, your religion is screwed up. It has too many problems. Christians should learn to take “responsibility for their failings.”
The Church is a hospital for sinners.
Christianity is not screwed up, but many Christians are, including me, and were it not for the Church, I would be much worse.
[quote=thomas;51118]I think N read this the wrong way, and maybe you did too.
[/quote]
Hi Thomas
I was just jesting…sorry
I was not faulting yoga, because I do think yoga can help someone lead a moral life.
Without a doubt.
However it obviously does more than that if we do the work.It expands consciousness. An expanded consiousness is going to have a bigger moral compass…although i am increasingly stopping seeing it that way. Expansion and good action compliment.Morality is…mmmmm
We no longer act from selfish desiress as much…for unity and thegreater good and all that.
. I think SD excuses his skirt-chasing by using yoga as an excuse to “regulate” it instead of saying no to it.
I see what you’re saying… Perhaps SD will fill you in here.Maybe he’s using it for spiritual aims? then Who are we to judge? But I know what you’re saying. A debauched life could have many elements to it and flavours…although i do understand your point Thomas. I think sometimes alot of it can stem from how we perceive something
*So if we see something as morally suspect or debauched it becomes so… ie it has it’s sseed in the mind… in fact beyond the mind, and the unconscious mind…it lies buried deep in emtional desire and want habit, a sense of need,emotional security etc etc…ahhhh…that nice warm feeling…something loves us,intoxicates or sedates or stimluates usually the senses, the lure of sensory gratification and it’s short -term superifical effects then we do it because we’re hooked to it be it sexx,drugs,gambling or alcohol,porn,coffee, cigarettes, a biscuit etc etc
I understand your point although i think there is a tendency to see these things through too narrow lenses.
And as N pointed out, some Christians do the same thing, so shame on them for being bad examples.
Now i can see why Nietszche thinks your religion is screwed up and alot of folk share that sentiment even in the west.
Christains often come across as morally self-righteous and all too often guilty of being judgement al of other people. Also the stand the church has towards women and the hang-ups about sex are all misguided.There’s atoo much guilt and shame and all that.It’s partly because few folk get liberated completely through Christaintiy,from a yoga perspective… if they are justreadinig their bible and attending Church …and alot of it is debatable how useful it is to folk
The reason i stopped going to church is the number of times alot of the folk did’nt practice what they preached or the teachings…
Christianity is fine…it’s just that there often seems to be a lot of hypocrisy and condemnations of heresy if you practice something else.Also that religion could be improved if it was still to exist but it’s supporters would have to do more than what most of them are doing or do some things differently…
I’ve met a few nice Christains that were quite involved but alot of them seem like hypocrits and too quick to judge others which is not to tar them all with the same brush as that would be unfair, Thomas.
I don’t believe spiritual authority comes from a religion because a religion is man-made. I beleive we can find it within us all…if we do the work.It has to liberate man.Often it creates more hang-ups,and neuroses whther it purports to solve any or not.
[quote=thomas;51119]The Church is a hospital for sinners.
Christianity is not screwed up, but many Christians are, including me, and were it not for the Church, I would be much worse.[/quote]
If you stuck yoga onto it i think you would have an improved version.
Or you coud drop the Christiantiy…say later;)
Do you practice yoga Thomas?
I have been to lots of yoga classes.
I would say I’m an “intermediate” as far as asanas go.
Neitzche, the poverty in India is there on open display for everybody to see. I think you might be in denial how poor India is overall. You are not going to convince me or anybody really that most Indians are not dirt poor. There was not a single place I went to in India, where I did not find rampant poverty. Yes, I did find pockets of wealth, but right next door to the pockets of wealth, there was seas of poverty.
The reason I bought up the multiplex vs single screen and Mcdonlads vs street vendor example was to show the difference in living standards between those living in the West and those living in India. In the West, almost everybody in the country can afford to regularly go to multiplexes, shop at malls, eat out at fast food chains, go to bars and clubs. In India, about 70% of the population cannot afford it. Ironically, what wealthy middle class Indians enjoy in India, is what the average working class enjoys here.
In India eating out at Mcdonalds/pizza hut/sub way etc, going to TFI fridays etc is a sign of prestige. You can see those wealthy Indians prance about like gods, completely oblivious to the seas of poverty that surround them. Their class can be recognised by their Western clothes, appreciation for MTV and Hollywood and their English speaking. I recall when I walkled into an Indian mall in Delhi, everybody was walking around speaking English and even the shop announcements were being given in English. What was most shameful was to see these wealthy Indians eating out in Mcdonalds at 8pm with their rich and spoilt kids running around.
India is going to become just as debauched as the West is, if not more. It is already apparent in the lifestyle and behaviour of the middle class. Now you find that sex before marriage is on a rise amongst the next generation Indians, the local media often includes articles on sex and lifestyle(like the West) and Indian girls are often found drunk and collapsed in the big cities like Delhi and Mumbai(like the West) So if by 2020 50% of Indians are going to be middle class, you can only expect this behaviour to become even more and more common.
India is on track for becoming America no 2. It is nowhere near at this point to returning to its spirituality. America, on the other hand, is on its way to becoming India no 2(prior to the colonization) You are wasting your breath and energy on India, Indians want what America has and America wants what India has. If there is any place in the world where spirituality will be embraced it is in America - the West.
You seem to be completely out of touch with the new age movement and how much it has proliferated and penetrated into Western society. I have been involved in it, and still am to an extent through my association with the Theosophical society and Gnostic groups. Practically all my friends are new-agers. My aim is to abridge the Western new-age movement with Hinduism and bring the torch of Hinduism into the West, so that eventually the torch of Hinduism become globalized. This is what our risis said as well, “Make the whole world Aryan” You are too blinded by nationalism to heed their request. But you are wasting your time with India, trust me. Indians WANT capitalism and it is clear you do too.
Sure the people in developing countries may be ignorant, but that is largely due to a lack of opportunities and education. Its different in the West; the people here are so immersed in hedonistic lifestyles and American chauvinism, it isn’t even funny. You try to point it out, you get scorned. Of course, what would a pagan from a dirt poor country know about these matters?
Sure, Western people maybe ignorant, prejudiced and racist, but to a much LESSER extent than Indian people are. In India discrimination is rampant in every area. White women coming to India are seen as sluts, and Indian men leer at them disrespectfully and think they are easy - because of this Western white girls are told by their travel advisory to cover themselves up. Interracial couples get stared at everywhere. Poor people get treated like shit by the rich and often they are not even called by their name, they are called a common name for servants. Girls get eve-teased on the streets, and this behaviour is so common I saw it myself on a bus once, when a man pinched this girls ass. My mother saw it and went mental. The old pervert then said to my man, “Shut up or i’ll smack you” and then the crowd on the bus joined in and forced the man of the bus. This is not an uncommon event, but a common event.
While in hostels in India in 2001 I saw all kinds of discrimination behaviour which left me appalled. There was regionalism, where people would discriminate against somebody just because of the region they were from(Bengali vs Punjabi vs South vs Maharastaran) There was discrimination on religion. There was discirmination on nationality. A friend of mine Farhan was a foreign student from Pakistan, and he often faced a lot of hatred against him. One particular guy, a Bihari, hated him so much that he pushed him down the stairs, saying, “I hate your kind” There was discrimination on all fronts.
When I got back to the UK after living 6 months in India on my own I was shocked by the contrast in the civility and openness of society vis-a-vis Indian. There was absolutely no doubt in my mind the UK is a more civilised society. It is not surprising though, India is a developing country. All developing countries lack in civility compared to the West.
For all the faults of the West, the West is better than every other part of the world in every area of life, including spirituality. Compared to the West and other advanced countries, all other parts of the world are a degree of backwards.
You are very much going against the vision of the founders of Hinduism, the Risis, who wanted Hinduism to spread all over the world and indeed in antiquity Hinduism did spread everywhere. You are trying to limit the eternal religion to just one geographical location i.e., you are claiming ownership of spirituality. That would be like the West claiming ownership of science.
Dear Thomas,
I think we have already established that suppressing desire does not work. It leads to according to Yoga psychology and modern psychology to all kinds of psychological imbalances. This is all too clear to see with the spate of child molestation that goes on in Christian monestaries, and as Neitzsche has pointed out, the sexual deviancy amongst Christians. Even by your own admittance suppression does not work for you have said that you keep yourself insulated from stimulus that may cause you to act sinfully, which basically means the desire remains lingering and festering inside your mind and all it needs is a stimulus to erupt out.
Hinduism has recognised that desire cannot be suppressed and has recognised that desire is very much a part of our nature. Hence, why capitalism is so popular in the world, capitalism provides for our desires. Even China, despite being originally communist, is increasingly capitalist today. Likewise, Indians despite being socialist originally, are fully fledged capitalists today. We naturally defend capitalism because without capitalism, as you said yourself, we would not have our desires met.
So instead of denying our desires and thus denying our nature(which never ever works) we must embrace our desires and find ways of dealilng with them. How? If your desire was sex, here is how you could deal with them:
-
Act out your desires without hindrance. Have as much as sex, with as many partners as you want. Enjoy and have fun.
-
Act out your desire and regulate it. Have sex, but do it discriminately, such as with your girlfriend.
This is better than suppression, because by acting out your desires you are not closeting in your desires and destroying yourself from within. But, it does not really get rid of the desire, but rather just perpetuates it. If you have sex once, you want sex twice, thrice and so on. Each time you act out a desire, you make that desire stronger. It can even turn into an addiction. Hence why there are ways in Hinduism to deal with them.
Right hand way: One-pointed focus on your goal of enlightenment and liberation, whenever desires occur simply watch them, be with them and let them dissipate. Do not feed the desire by acting it out or suppressing it.
Left hand way: Act out your desire to the extreme, to the point of self oblivion, and do it with full awareness that you are doing it, experience exactly what it is like to act out your desire, every sensation it gives.
If you wanted to deal with your lust using a left hand path here is what you could do. Rather than see a prostitute every week, see one every few hours for the entire week! Trust me, by the end of the week you will be sick of it. You will then realise that the actual sensations of sex are not all that great and you can grow sick of them, this is when transcendence of lust occurrs.
[QUOTE=thomas;51119]The Church is a hospital for sinners.
Christianity is not screwed up, but many Christians are, including me, and were it not for the Church, I would be much worse.[/QUOTE]
Yea, according to Christianity, it itself is not screwed up while if any follower does something one would consider blatantly wrong in today’s world, its the follower’s fault.
So much hypocrisy within Christianity. The day I meet a Christian who admits his religion is flawed is the day the earth stands still.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51157]Neitzche, the poverty in India is there on open display for everybody to see. I think you might be in denial how poor India is overall. You are not going to convince me or anybody really that most Indians are not dirt poor. There was not a single place I went to in India, where I did not find rampant poverty. Yes, I did find pockets of wealth, but right next door to the pockets of wealth, there was seas of poverty.
The reason I bought up the multiplex vs single screen and Mcdonlads vs street vendor example was to show the difference in living standards between those living in the West and those living in India. In the West, almost everybody in the country can afford to regularly go to multiplexes, shop at malls, eat out at fast food chains, go to bars and clubs. In India, about 70% of the population cannot afford it. Ironically, what wealthy middle class Indians enjoy in India, is what the average working class enjoys here.
In India eating out at Mcdonalds/pizza hut/sub way etc, going to TFI fridays etc is a sign of prestige. You can see those wealthy Indians prance about like gods, completely oblivious to the seas of poverty that surround them. Their class can be recognised by their Western clothes, appreciation for MTV and Hollywood and their English speaking. I recall when I walkled into an Indian mall in Delhi, everybody was walking around speaking English and even the shop announcements were being given in English. What was most shameful was to see these wealthy Indians eating out in Mcdonalds at 8pm with their rich and spoilt kids running around.
India is going to become just as debauched as the West is, if not more. It is already apparent in the lifestyle and behaviour of the middle class. Now you find that sex before marriage is on a rise amongst the next generation Indians, the local media often includes articles on sex and lifestyle(like the West) and Indian girls are often found drunk and collapsed in the big cities like Delhi and Mumbai(like the West) So if by 2020 50% of Indians are going to be middle class, you can only expect this behaviour to become even more and more common.
India is on track for becoming America no 2. It is nowhere near at this point to returning to its spirituality. America, on the other hand, is on its way to becoming India no 2(prior to the colonization) You are wasting your breath and energy on India, Indians want what America has and America wants what India has. If there is any place in the world where spirituality will be embraced it is in America - the West.
You seem to be completely out of touch with the new age movement and how much it has proliferated and penetrated into Western society. I have been involved in it, and still am to an extent through my association with the Theosophical society and Gnostic groups. Practically all my friends are new-agers. My aim is to abridge the Western new-age movement with Hinduism and bring the torch of Hinduism into the West, so that eventually the torch of Hinduism become globalized. This is what our risis said as well, “Make the whole world Aryan” You are too blinded by nationalism to heed their request. But you are wasting your time with India, trust me. Indians WANT capitalism and it is clear you do too.[/QUOTE]
Yes. I disagree with the statistic but not on the fact that India is still massively poor.
Wait, thats isn’t even what I want convince someone of. I just want to point out that though there is rampant poverty, it is declining fast and isn’t as bad anymore as the West has exaggerated it to be.
Again, can I see where you found the statistic? Yes, I agree with you though.
That’s saddening. But can you tell me where in India you visit? I want to know. It definitely seems like somewhere in Northern India. In Hyderabad, the conditions aren’t nearly as bad. I see pictures of Hyderabad several times throughout the year and input from creditable sources to know that this is the case.
Is that so? What scope of experience do you have which indicates that is the case with middle class Indian girls? As for sexuality, I can certainly believe that. Then again, in America, it isn’t unusual to find the typical porno magazine stuffed under any kid’s bed. I remember a time when I was playing wall-ball with some of my friends by using the door the of the garbage can as the wall. Eventually, the ball landed in the trash can and some of my friends went to get it. They ended up staying there for so long that the rest of us went to see what was going on. Let’s just say that I glanced and beat it out of there. Luckily they were too busy gawking at the dirty material to notice and call me “gay” (circumstances like these are where my confusion about the term arose). Nowadays, you find gigabytes of porn in the average American kid’s computer. I had to distance myself from so many friends of their dirty minded nature, that I was lonely for a while.
The same was said of America back in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. And change did come not only because of the “magic wonders” of capitalism but because individuals cared for the welfare of their country and took the initiative to better the lives of the unfortunate. You, on the other hand, have simply seen the worst of the country and based your opinion of it on that. I can relate. I too have seen and experienced the worst of America to the point where I could care less about the welfare of this damned nation. You can scorn my decision for trying to use my education to better my country but I am sticking by it. That’s final.
You know, India didn’t become independent because Western educated Indians despaired about the future of India. If you are so glum about India’s prospects at its zenith in these times, then I can’t imagine what you would have thought about India in pre-Independence times.
I think you are as foolish for siding with America as you say I am for siding with India. America is failing and dying. It will never again be what it once was. The conservative parties are on the rise and the people are becoming increasingly ignorant, chauvinistic, and nationalistic. Recently, the Republican party wiped the floor in the House of Representatives to the point where all Washington can do is debate and not act. Anything the Democrats want is getting vetoed. The intellectuals here have much the same sentiments as I do, in that they despair about the future of this country. For example, things like this this are what is on our news channels nowadays.
Because it is nowhere to be found here, at least on levels deeper than the nominal. For heaven’s sake, no one here even knows what “New Age” is! Trust me, if there was such a society, I would have immediately joined it and FAST.
And you are blinded highly idealistic goals. Of course, you could say the same of me. But I have lived in the U.S for 11 years and my parents have been here for 30+. They have lived ALL over the U.S. Despite that, my parents still have a VERY low opinion of most Americans. They frequently tell me of how much shit they received while living here, which includes, but isn’t limited to, racism, ignorance, threats, and etc. I of course, can tell you much the same. Even here in the upper levels of society, the people are incredibly ignorant. They are blinded by far too much intellectual idealism and dogmatism to learn anything; that I can guarantee you. Even in my AP World history course, I could remember my teacher scorning the (lack of) history of India and Hinduism. I remember even my best “friends’” constant scorn of Hinduism and India, friends who have received national recognition in many areas. You are wasting your time with America. Trust me. America LOVES itself too much to care about anything else.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51169]Dear Thomas,
I think we have already established that suppressing desire does not work. It leads to according to Yoga psychology and modern psychology to all kinds of psychological imbalances. This is all too clear to see with the spate of child molestation that goes on in Christian monestaries, and as Neitzsche has pointed out, the sexual deviancy amongst Christians. Even by your own admittance suppression does not work for you have said that you keep yourself insulated from stimulus that may cause you to act sinfully, which basically means the desire remains lingering and festering inside your mind and all it needs is a stimulus to erupt out.
Hinduism has recognised that desire cannot be suppressed and has recognised that desire is very much a part of our nature. Hence, why capitalism is so popular in the world, capitalism provides for our desires. Even China, despite being originally communist, is increasingly capitalist today. Likewise, Indians despite being socialist originally, are fully fledged capitalists today. We naturally defend capitalism because without capitalism, as you said yourself, we would not have our desires met.
So instead of denying our desires and thus denying our nature(which never ever works) we must embrace our desires and find ways of dealilng with them. How? If your desire was sex, here is how you could deal with them:
-
Act out your desires without hindrance. Have as much as sex, with as many partners as you want. Enjoy and have fun.
-
Act out your desire and regulate it. Have sex, but do it discriminately, such as with your girlfriend.
This is better than suppression, because by acting out your desires you are not closeting in your desires and destroying yourself from within. But, it does not really get rid of the desire, but rather just perpetuates it. If you have sex once, you want sex twice, thrice and so on. Each time you act out a desire, you make that desire stronger. It can even turn into an addiction. Hence why there are ways in Hinduism to deal with them.
Right hand way: One-pointed focus on your goal of enlightenment and liberation, whenever desires occur simply watch them, be with them and let them dissipate. Do not feed the desire by acting it out or suppressing it.
Left hand way: Act out your desire to the extreme, to the point of self oblivion, and do it with full awareness that you are doing it, experience exactly what it is like to act out your desire, every sensation it gives.
If you wanted to deal with your lust using a left hand path here is what you could do. Rather than see a prostitute every week, see one every few hours for the entire week! Trust me, by the end of the week you will be sick of it. You will then realise that the actual sensations of sex are not all that great and you can grow sick of them, this is when transcendence of lust occurrs.[/QUOTE]
SD, Thomas is a married man, does this mean nothing?..you are encouraging him to sin!
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51159]Sure, Western people maybe ignorant, prejudiced and racist, but to a much LESSER extent than Indian people are. In India discrimination is rampant in every area. White women coming to India are seen as sluts, and Indian men leer at them disrespectfully and think they are easy - because of this Western white girls are told by their travel advisory to cover themselves up. Interracial couples get stared at everywhere. Poor people get treated like shit by the rich and often they are not even called by their name, they are called a common name for servants. Girls get eve-teased on the streets, and this behaviour is so common I saw it myself on a bus once, when a man pinched this girls ass. My mother saw it and went mental. The old pervert then said to my man, “Shut up or i’ll smack you” and then the crowd on the bus joined in and forced the man of the bus. This is not an uncommon event, but a common event.
While in hostels in India in 2001 I saw all kinds of discrimination behaviour which left me appalled. There was regionalism, where people would discriminate against somebody just because of the region they were from(Bengali vs Punjabi vs South vs Maharastaran) There was discrimination on religion. There was discirmination on nationality. A friend of mine Farhan was a foreign student from Pakistan, and he often faced a lot of hatred against him. One particular guy, a Bihari, hated him so much that he pushed him down the stairs, saying, “I hate your kind” There was discrimination on all fronts.
When I got back to the UK after living 6 months in India on my own I was shocked by the contrast in the civility and openness of society vis-a-vis Indian. There was absolutely no doubt in my mind the UK is a more civilised society. It is not surprising though, India is a developing country. All developing countries lack in civility compared to the West.
For all the faults of the West, the West is better than every other part of the world in every area of life, including spirituality. Compared to the West and other advanced countries, all other parts of the world are a degree of backwards.
You are very much going against the vision of the founders of Hinduism, the Risis, who wanted Hinduism to spread all over the world and indeed in antiquity Hinduism did spread everywhere. You are trying to limit the eternal religion to just one geographical location i.e., you are claiming ownership of spirituality. That would be like the West claiming ownership of science.[/QUOTE]
Is that so? Here, all the women are “easy.” There are so many underage girls who have had sex that it is sickening. Pornography is extremely rampant here. When I once expressed consternation from my friend’s admission to watching porn, a girl intervened and said “Seriously dude, who HASN’T watched porn?” Additionally, I get called “gay” for my innocence and lack of “drive.”
White women have to cover themselves up? WHAT THE HELL? Every white woman/girl I have talked to who has visited India never said ANYTHING like this. All I hear are positive stories about their vacation, along with the obligatory anecdotes on the poverty in India.
Interracial couples get stared at here too. What is your point? Lets face it, they ARE unique.
Yes, the thing about poor people is believable. I remember a time when our family had this servant. One of my uncles was always very mean and rude to her for some reason and the rest of my family always hated him for it. Unfortunately, he had the most influence in our home and I admit that I was rude to her at times simply because I had watched my uncle do the same (the resulting spanking I got from my parents was painful :D).
Girls are teased on the streets in every city. What are you talking about? I saw much the same in New York City when I visited there; boorish street people were always saying mean and crass things to the women walking on the streets. Same with Houston, Dallas, etc. Nothing special.
I too witnessed the same thing MANY times. I once saw this random guy walk up behind a girl I knew and actually SMACK her on the behind. The response? Predictable. But you know whats weird? They started dating each other that very week. Another time, a guy in my class who started throwing peebles at an opening in a girl’s shirt sitting next to me. I really could go on an on about the messed up things that happen here.
Wait, what? Thats not an uncommon event but a common event? Was that a typo?
Guess what man? There is discrimination here too. I have already told you how much discrimination here I receive every day. Every white kid here laughs at the idea of “Black [B]History[/B] Month.” Black stereotypes abound insanely. Our black president is hated by most white people in America. Muslims? I shouldn’t have to explain this and 9-11 do I? Most of America screamed at the idea of the plan for a mosque near Ground Zero. Mexicans are portrayed as nothing but stupid, drug-trafficking lawnmowers (I live in Texas where this discrimination is the worst; after all, we are the closest to Mexico). East/S.E Asians? Obvious. Indians? Yeah…
My father says the exact opposite of India vs U.S. Sure there is poverty and ignorance. But there is something about the average Indian and the very atmosphere of India that makes it better than the West, not in terms of materialism but in terms of goodness and spirituality.
The West is also backwards in many areas just like every other part of the world. You are simply too blind to see it in the same way you say I am too blind to see what India “really” is.
Our black president is hated by most white people in America.
He is “hated” because he is a crappy president. Skin color has nothing to do with it.
[QUOTE=thomas;51258]He is “hated” because he is a crappy president. Skin color has nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE]
He is simply a president in the wrong place at the wrong time. Let’s face it, McCain couldn’t have done a better job in the first place himself. The times are too unique for that. Look at the history of the U.S; similar fiscal crises and every president who was in the midst of it is forgotten or hated.
I can almost guarantee you that McCain would have been tolerated longer than Obama is now.
I was not thrilled with McCain, but he would have been better. I would rather have had Mit Romney. But McCain would not have increased spending as Obama did.
Obama has been a big spender and has enlarged the size of government.
Anyway, for the vast majority of those who dislike Obama as a president, it has nothing to do with skin color. I have the same dislike for him for the same reasons I disliked Jimmy Carter, a white man. I would be extremely happy with a Republican conservative black man or woman, or Hindu conservative Republican man or woman.
[QUOTE=thomas;51261]I was not thrilled with McCain, but he would have been better. I would rather have had Mit Romney. But McCain would not have increased spending as Obama did.
Obama has been a big spender and has enlarged the size of government.
Anyway, for the vast majority of those who dislike Obama as a president, it has nothing to do with skin color. I have the same dislike for him for the same reasons I disliked Jimmy Carter, a white man. I would be extremely happy with a Republican conservative black man or woman, or Hindu conservative Republican man or woman.[/QUOTE]
Thomas, of course YOU would.
Maybe you have a point. I think Mit Romney was rejected by evangelical Christians because he is a Mormon.
[QUOTE=thomas;51264]Maybe you have a point. I think Mit Romney was rejected by evangelical Christians because he is a Mormon.[/QUOTE]
Now we are getting somewhere. Watch this.