I have been to lots of yoga classes.
I would say I’m an “intermediate” as far as asanas go.
Neitzche, the poverty in India is there on open display for everybody to see. I think you might be in denial how poor India is overall. You are not going to convince me or anybody really that most Indians are not dirt poor. There was not a single place I went to in India, where I did not find rampant poverty. Yes, I did find pockets of wealth, but right next door to the pockets of wealth, there was seas of poverty.
The reason I bought up the multiplex vs single screen and Mcdonlads vs street vendor example was to show the difference in living standards between those living in the West and those living in India. In the West, almost everybody in the country can afford to regularly go to multiplexes, shop at malls, eat out at fast food chains, go to bars and clubs. In India, about 70% of the population cannot afford it. Ironically, what wealthy middle class Indians enjoy in India, is what the average working class enjoys here.
In India eating out at Mcdonalds/pizza hut/sub way etc, going to TFI fridays etc is a sign of prestige. You can see those wealthy Indians prance about like gods, completely oblivious to the seas of poverty that surround them. Their class can be recognised by their Western clothes, appreciation for MTV and Hollywood and their English speaking. I recall when I walkled into an Indian mall in Delhi, everybody was walking around speaking English and even the shop announcements were being given in English. What was most shameful was to see these wealthy Indians eating out in Mcdonalds at 8pm with their rich and spoilt kids running around.
India is going to become just as debauched as the West is, if not more. It is already apparent in the lifestyle and behaviour of the middle class. Now you find that sex before marriage is on a rise amongst the next generation Indians, the local media often includes articles on sex and lifestyle(like the West) and Indian girls are often found drunk and collapsed in the big cities like Delhi and Mumbai(like the West) So if by 2020 50% of Indians are going to be middle class, you can only expect this behaviour to become even more and more common.
India is on track for becoming America no 2. It is nowhere near at this point to returning to its spirituality. America, on the other hand, is on its way to becoming India no 2(prior to the colonization) You are wasting your breath and energy on India, Indians want what America has and America wants what India has. If there is any place in the world where spirituality will be embraced it is in America - the West.
You seem to be completely out of touch with the new age movement and how much it has proliferated and penetrated into Western society. I have been involved in it, and still am to an extent through my association with the Theosophical society and Gnostic groups. Practically all my friends are new-agers. My aim is to abridge the Western new-age movement with Hinduism and bring the torch of Hinduism into the West, so that eventually the torch of Hinduism become globalized. This is what our risis said as well, “Make the whole world Aryan” You are too blinded by nationalism to heed their request. But you are wasting your time with India, trust me. Indians WANT capitalism and it is clear you do too.
Sure the people in developing countries may be ignorant, but that is largely due to a lack of opportunities and education. Its different in the West; the people here are so immersed in hedonistic lifestyles and American chauvinism, it isn’t even funny. You try to point it out, you get scorned. Of course, what would a pagan from a dirt poor country know about these matters?
Sure, Western people maybe ignorant, prejudiced and racist, but to a much LESSER extent than Indian people are. In India discrimination is rampant in every area. White women coming to India are seen as sluts, and Indian men leer at them disrespectfully and think they are easy - because of this Western white girls are told by their travel advisory to cover themselves up. Interracial couples get stared at everywhere. Poor people get treated like shit by the rich and often they are not even called by their name, they are called a common name for servants. Girls get eve-teased on the streets, and this behaviour is so common I saw it myself on a bus once, when a man pinched this girls ass. My mother saw it and went mental. The old pervert then said to my man, “Shut up or i’ll smack you” and then the crowd on the bus joined in and forced the man of the bus. This is not an uncommon event, but a common event.
While in hostels in India in 2001 I saw all kinds of discrimination behaviour which left me appalled. There was regionalism, where people would discriminate against somebody just because of the region they were from(Bengali vs Punjabi vs South vs Maharastaran) There was discrimination on religion. There was discirmination on nationality. A friend of mine Farhan was a foreign student from Pakistan, and he often faced a lot of hatred against him. One particular guy, a Bihari, hated him so much that he pushed him down the stairs, saying, “I hate your kind” There was discrimination on all fronts.
When I got back to the UK after living 6 months in India on my own I was shocked by the contrast in the civility and openness of society vis-a-vis Indian. There was absolutely no doubt in my mind the UK is a more civilised society. It is not surprising though, India is a developing country. All developing countries lack in civility compared to the West.
For all the faults of the West, the West is better than every other part of the world in every area of life, including spirituality. Compared to the West and other advanced countries, all other parts of the world are a degree of backwards.
You are very much going against the vision of the founders of Hinduism, the Risis, who wanted Hinduism to spread all over the world and indeed in antiquity Hinduism did spread everywhere. You are trying to limit the eternal religion to just one geographical location i.e., you are claiming ownership of spirituality. That would be like the West claiming ownership of science.
Dear Thomas,
I think we have already established that suppressing desire does not work. It leads to according to Yoga psychology and modern psychology to all kinds of psychological imbalances. This is all too clear to see with the spate of child molestation that goes on in Christian monestaries, and as Neitzsche has pointed out, the sexual deviancy amongst Christians. Even by your own admittance suppression does not work for you have said that you keep yourself insulated from stimulus that may cause you to act sinfully, which basically means the desire remains lingering and festering inside your mind and all it needs is a stimulus to erupt out.
Hinduism has recognised that desire cannot be suppressed and has recognised that desire is very much a part of our nature. Hence, why capitalism is so popular in the world, capitalism provides for our desires. Even China, despite being originally communist, is increasingly capitalist today. Likewise, Indians despite being socialist originally, are fully fledged capitalists today. We naturally defend capitalism because without capitalism, as you said yourself, we would not have our desires met.
So instead of denying our desires and thus denying our nature(which never ever works) we must embrace our desires and find ways of dealilng with them. How? If your desire was sex, here is how you could deal with them:
-
Act out your desires without hindrance. Have as much as sex, with as many partners as you want. Enjoy and have fun.
-
Act out your desire and regulate it. Have sex, but do it discriminately, such as with your girlfriend.
This is better than suppression, because by acting out your desires you are not closeting in your desires and destroying yourself from within. But, it does not really get rid of the desire, but rather just perpetuates it. If you have sex once, you want sex twice, thrice and so on. Each time you act out a desire, you make that desire stronger. It can even turn into an addiction. Hence why there are ways in Hinduism to deal with them.
Right hand way: One-pointed focus on your goal of enlightenment and liberation, whenever desires occur simply watch them, be with them and let them dissipate. Do not feed the desire by acting it out or suppressing it.
Left hand way: Act out your desire to the extreme, to the point of self oblivion, and do it with full awareness that you are doing it, experience exactly what it is like to act out your desire, every sensation it gives.
If you wanted to deal with your lust using a left hand path here is what you could do. Rather than see a prostitute every week, see one every few hours for the entire week! Trust me, by the end of the week you will be sick of it. You will then realise that the actual sensations of sex are not all that great and you can grow sick of them, this is when transcendence of lust occurrs.
[QUOTE=thomas;51119]The Church is a hospital for sinners.
Christianity is not screwed up, but many Christians are, including me, and were it not for the Church, I would be much worse.[/QUOTE]
Yea, according to Christianity, it itself is not screwed up while if any follower does something one would consider blatantly wrong in today’s world, its the follower’s fault.
So much hypocrisy within Christianity. The day I meet a Christian who admits his religion is flawed is the day the earth stands still.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51157]Neitzche, the poverty in India is there on open display for everybody to see. I think you might be in denial how poor India is overall. You are not going to convince me or anybody really that most Indians are not dirt poor. There was not a single place I went to in India, where I did not find rampant poverty. Yes, I did find pockets of wealth, but right next door to the pockets of wealth, there was seas of poverty.
The reason I bought up the multiplex vs single screen and Mcdonlads vs street vendor example was to show the difference in living standards between those living in the West and those living in India. In the West, almost everybody in the country can afford to regularly go to multiplexes, shop at malls, eat out at fast food chains, go to bars and clubs. In India, about 70% of the population cannot afford it. Ironically, what wealthy middle class Indians enjoy in India, is what the average working class enjoys here.
In India eating out at Mcdonalds/pizza hut/sub way etc, going to TFI fridays etc is a sign of prestige. You can see those wealthy Indians prance about like gods, completely oblivious to the seas of poverty that surround them. Their class can be recognised by their Western clothes, appreciation for MTV and Hollywood and their English speaking. I recall when I walkled into an Indian mall in Delhi, everybody was walking around speaking English and even the shop announcements were being given in English. What was most shameful was to see these wealthy Indians eating out in Mcdonalds at 8pm with their rich and spoilt kids running around.
India is going to become just as debauched as the West is, if not more. It is already apparent in the lifestyle and behaviour of the middle class. Now you find that sex before marriage is on a rise amongst the next generation Indians, the local media often includes articles on sex and lifestyle(like the West) and Indian girls are often found drunk and collapsed in the big cities like Delhi and Mumbai(like the West) So if by 2020 50% of Indians are going to be middle class, you can only expect this behaviour to become even more and more common.
India is on track for becoming America no 2. It is nowhere near at this point to returning to its spirituality. America, on the other hand, is on its way to becoming India no 2(prior to the colonization) You are wasting your breath and energy on India, Indians want what America has and America wants what India has. If there is any place in the world where spirituality will be embraced it is in America - the West.
You seem to be completely out of touch with the new age movement and how much it has proliferated and penetrated into Western society. I have been involved in it, and still am to an extent through my association with the Theosophical society and Gnostic groups. Practically all my friends are new-agers. My aim is to abridge the Western new-age movement with Hinduism and bring the torch of Hinduism into the West, so that eventually the torch of Hinduism become globalized. This is what our risis said as well, “Make the whole world Aryan” You are too blinded by nationalism to heed their request. But you are wasting your time with India, trust me. Indians WANT capitalism and it is clear you do too.[/QUOTE]
Yes. I disagree with the statistic but not on the fact that India is still massively poor.
Wait, thats isn’t even what I want convince someone of. I just want to point out that though there is rampant poverty, it is declining fast and isn’t as bad anymore as the West has exaggerated it to be.
Again, can I see where you found the statistic? Yes, I agree with you though.
That’s saddening. But can you tell me where in India you visit? I want to know. It definitely seems like somewhere in Northern India. In Hyderabad, the conditions aren’t nearly as bad. I see pictures of Hyderabad several times throughout the year and input from creditable sources to know that this is the case.
Is that so? What scope of experience do you have which indicates that is the case with middle class Indian girls? As for sexuality, I can certainly believe that. Then again, in America, it isn’t unusual to find the typical porno magazine stuffed under any kid’s bed. I remember a time when I was playing wall-ball with some of my friends by using the door the of the garbage can as the wall. Eventually, the ball landed in the trash can and some of my friends went to get it. They ended up staying there for so long that the rest of us went to see what was going on. Let’s just say that I glanced and beat it out of there. Luckily they were too busy gawking at the dirty material to notice and call me “gay” (circumstances like these are where my confusion about the term arose). Nowadays, you find gigabytes of porn in the average American kid’s computer. I had to distance myself from so many friends of their dirty minded nature, that I was lonely for a while.
The same was said of America back in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries. And change did come not only because of the “magic wonders” of capitalism but because individuals cared for the welfare of their country and took the initiative to better the lives of the unfortunate. You, on the other hand, have simply seen the worst of the country and based your opinion of it on that. I can relate. I too have seen and experienced the worst of America to the point where I could care less about the welfare of this damned nation. You can scorn my decision for trying to use my education to better my country but I am sticking by it. That’s final.
You know, India didn’t become independent because Western educated Indians despaired about the future of India. If you are so glum about India’s prospects at its zenith in these times, then I can’t imagine what you would have thought about India in pre-Independence times.
I think you are as foolish for siding with America as you say I am for siding with India. America is failing and dying. It will never again be what it once was. The conservative parties are on the rise and the people are becoming increasingly ignorant, chauvinistic, and nationalistic. Recently, the Republican party wiped the floor in the House of Representatives to the point where all Washington can do is debate and not act. Anything the Democrats want is getting vetoed. The intellectuals here have much the same sentiments as I do, in that they despair about the future of this country. For example, things like this this are what is on our news channels nowadays.
Because it is nowhere to be found here, at least on levels deeper than the nominal. For heaven’s sake, no one here even knows what “New Age” is! Trust me, if there was such a society, I would have immediately joined it and FAST.
And you are blinded highly idealistic goals. Of course, you could say the same of me. But I have lived in the U.S for 11 years and my parents have been here for 30+. They have lived ALL over the U.S. Despite that, my parents still have a VERY low opinion of most Americans. They frequently tell me of how much shit they received while living here, which includes, but isn’t limited to, racism, ignorance, threats, and etc. I of course, can tell you much the same. Even here in the upper levels of society, the people are incredibly ignorant. They are blinded by far too much intellectual idealism and dogmatism to learn anything; that I can guarantee you. Even in my AP World history course, I could remember my teacher scorning the (lack of) history of India and Hinduism. I remember even my best “friends’” constant scorn of Hinduism and India, friends who have received national recognition in many areas. You are wasting your time with America. Trust me. America LOVES itself too much to care about anything else.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51169]Dear Thomas,
I think we have already established that suppressing desire does not work. It leads to according to Yoga psychology and modern psychology to all kinds of psychological imbalances. This is all too clear to see with the spate of child molestation that goes on in Christian monestaries, and as Neitzsche has pointed out, the sexual deviancy amongst Christians. Even by your own admittance suppression does not work for you have said that you keep yourself insulated from stimulus that may cause you to act sinfully, which basically means the desire remains lingering and festering inside your mind and all it needs is a stimulus to erupt out.
Hinduism has recognised that desire cannot be suppressed and has recognised that desire is very much a part of our nature. Hence, why capitalism is so popular in the world, capitalism provides for our desires. Even China, despite being originally communist, is increasingly capitalist today. Likewise, Indians despite being socialist originally, are fully fledged capitalists today. We naturally defend capitalism because without capitalism, as you said yourself, we would not have our desires met.
So instead of denying our desires and thus denying our nature(which never ever works) we must embrace our desires and find ways of dealilng with them. How? If your desire was sex, here is how you could deal with them:
-
Act out your desires without hindrance. Have as much as sex, with as many partners as you want. Enjoy and have fun.
-
Act out your desire and regulate it. Have sex, but do it discriminately, such as with your girlfriend.
This is better than suppression, because by acting out your desires you are not closeting in your desires and destroying yourself from within. But, it does not really get rid of the desire, but rather just perpetuates it. If you have sex once, you want sex twice, thrice and so on. Each time you act out a desire, you make that desire stronger. It can even turn into an addiction. Hence why there are ways in Hinduism to deal with them.
Right hand way: One-pointed focus on your goal of enlightenment and liberation, whenever desires occur simply watch them, be with them and let them dissipate. Do not feed the desire by acting it out or suppressing it.
Left hand way: Act out your desire to the extreme, to the point of self oblivion, and do it with full awareness that you are doing it, experience exactly what it is like to act out your desire, every sensation it gives.
If you wanted to deal with your lust using a left hand path here is what you could do. Rather than see a prostitute every week, see one every few hours for the entire week! Trust me, by the end of the week you will be sick of it. You will then realise that the actual sensations of sex are not all that great and you can grow sick of them, this is when transcendence of lust occurrs.[/QUOTE]
SD, Thomas is a married man, does this mean nothing?..you are encouraging him to sin!
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51159]Sure, Western people maybe ignorant, prejudiced and racist, but to a much LESSER extent than Indian people are. In India discrimination is rampant in every area. White women coming to India are seen as sluts, and Indian men leer at them disrespectfully and think they are easy - because of this Western white girls are told by their travel advisory to cover themselves up. Interracial couples get stared at everywhere. Poor people get treated like shit by the rich and often they are not even called by their name, they are called a common name for servants. Girls get eve-teased on the streets, and this behaviour is so common I saw it myself on a bus once, when a man pinched this girls ass. My mother saw it and went mental. The old pervert then said to my man, “Shut up or i’ll smack you” and then the crowd on the bus joined in and forced the man of the bus. This is not an uncommon event, but a common event.
While in hostels in India in 2001 I saw all kinds of discrimination behaviour which left me appalled. There was regionalism, where people would discriminate against somebody just because of the region they were from(Bengali vs Punjabi vs South vs Maharastaran) There was discrimination on religion. There was discirmination on nationality. A friend of mine Farhan was a foreign student from Pakistan, and he often faced a lot of hatred against him. One particular guy, a Bihari, hated him so much that he pushed him down the stairs, saying, “I hate your kind” There was discrimination on all fronts.
When I got back to the UK after living 6 months in India on my own I was shocked by the contrast in the civility and openness of society vis-a-vis Indian. There was absolutely no doubt in my mind the UK is a more civilised society. It is not surprising though, India is a developing country. All developing countries lack in civility compared to the West.
For all the faults of the West, the West is better than every other part of the world in every area of life, including spirituality. Compared to the West and other advanced countries, all other parts of the world are a degree of backwards.
You are very much going against the vision of the founders of Hinduism, the Risis, who wanted Hinduism to spread all over the world and indeed in antiquity Hinduism did spread everywhere. You are trying to limit the eternal religion to just one geographical location i.e., you are claiming ownership of spirituality. That would be like the West claiming ownership of science.[/QUOTE]
Is that so? Here, all the women are “easy.” There are so many underage girls who have had sex that it is sickening. Pornography is extremely rampant here. When I once expressed consternation from my friend’s admission to watching porn, a girl intervened and said “Seriously dude, who HASN’T watched porn?” Additionally, I get called “gay” for my innocence and lack of “drive.”
White women have to cover themselves up? WHAT THE HELL? Every white woman/girl I have talked to who has visited India never said ANYTHING like this. All I hear are positive stories about their vacation, along with the obligatory anecdotes on the poverty in India.
Interracial couples get stared at here too. What is your point? Lets face it, they ARE unique.
Yes, the thing about poor people is believable. I remember a time when our family had this servant. One of my uncles was always very mean and rude to her for some reason and the rest of my family always hated him for it. Unfortunately, he had the most influence in our home and I admit that I was rude to her at times simply because I had watched my uncle do the same (the resulting spanking I got from my parents was painful :D).
Girls are teased on the streets in every city. What are you talking about? I saw much the same in New York City when I visited there; boorish street people were always saying mean and crass things to the women walking on the streets. Same with Houston, Dallas, etc. Nothing special.
I too witnessed the same thing MANY times. I once saw this random guy walk up behind a girl I knew and actually SMACK her on the behind. The response? Predictable. But you know whats weird? They started dating each other that very week. Another time, a guy in my class who started throwing peebles at an opening in a girl’s shirt sitting next to me. I really could go on an on about the messed up things that happen here.
Wait, what? Thats not an uncommon event but a common event? Was that a typo?
Guess what man? There is discrimination here too. I have already told you how much discrimination here I receive every day. Every white kid here laughs at the idea of “Black [B]History[/B] Month.” Black stereotypes abound insanely. Our black president is hated by most white people in America. Muslims? I shouldn’t have to explain this and 9-11 do I? Most of America screamed at the idea of the plan for a mosque near Ground Zero. Mexicans are portrayed as nothing but stupid, drug-trafficking lawnmowers (I live in Texas where this discrimination is the worst; after all, we are the closest to Mexico). East/S.E Asians? Obvious. Indians? Yeah…
My father says the exact opposite of India vs U.S. Sure there is poverty and ignorance. But there is something about the average Indian and the very atmosphere of India that makes it better than the West, not in terms of materialism but in terms of goodness and spirituality.
The West is also backwards in many areas just like every other part of the world. You are simply too blind to see it in the same way you say I am too blind to see what India “really” is.
Our black president is hated by most white people in America.
He is “hated” because he is a crappy president. Skin color has nothing to do with it.
[QUOTE=thomas;51258]He is “hated” because he is a crappy president. Skin color has nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE]
He is simply a president in the wrong place at the wrong time. Let’s face it, McCain couldn’t have done a better job in the first place himself. The times are too unique for that. Look at the history of the U.S; similar fiscal crises and every president who was in the midst of it is forgotten or hated.
I can almost guarantee you that McCain would have been tolerated longer than Obama is now.
I was not thrilled with McCain, but he would have been better. I would rather have had Mit Romney. But McCain would not have increased spending as Obama did.
Obama has been a big spender and has enlarged the size of government.
Anyway, for the vast majority of those who dislike Obama as a president, it has nothing to do with skin color. I have the same dislike for him for the same reasons I disliked Jimmy Carter, a white man. I would be extremely happy with a Republican conservative black man or woman, or Hindu conservative Republican man or woman.
[QUOTE=thomas;51261]I was not thrilled with McCain, but he would have been better. I would rather have had Mit Romney. But McCain would not have increased spending as Obama did.
Obama has been a big spender and has enlarged the size of government.
Anyway, for the vast majority of those who dislike Obama as a president, it has nothing to do with skin color. I have the same dislike for him for the same reasons I disliked Jimmy Carter, a white man. I would be extremely happy with a Republican conservative black man or woman, or Hindu conservative Republican man or woman.[/QUOTE]
Thomas, of course YOU would.
Maybe you have a point. I think Mit Romney was rejected by evangelical Christians because he is a Mormon.
[QUOTE=thomas;51264]Maybe you have a point. I think Mit Romney was rejected by evangelical Christians because he is a Mormon.[/QUOTE]
Now we are getting somewhere. Watch this.
Dear Nietzche,
I think what we have established in this thread that both India and America have problems when it comes to things like discrimination and ignorance. We have also established that India is a developing country and its growth is similar to America’s several decades ago. It is a rising country, which means that most people still lack the basic living standards that we here in the West enjoy, but this situation will change in a few decades as the Indian economy grows.
My point is that you are wasting your time and energy by investing them in a developing country rather than a developed country. You complain so much about America, but it is easy for any objective person to see America is manifold times in a better state than India is in all areas: living standards, civil and human rights, infrastructure, welfare, social development. The West in general are high in these areas.
India is not ready for spiritualiy. America is. Again, you seem to be completely unaware of the growing spirituality in America and the West in general. I don’t know where to begin to put you in touch with this. I am very much in touch with the spirtual community in the West so I know the big changes that are happening in the West.
As much as I love and admire India, I am not limited to India. The world is my wider home and humanity is my wider family. I have the interests of humanity and the world in my mind, you have the interests of India in your mind. I am a humanist, you are a nationalist.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51352]Dear Nietzche,
I think what we have established in this thread that both India and America have problems when it comes to things like discrimination and ignorance. We have also established that India is a developing country and its growth is similar to America’s several decades ago. It is a rising country, which means that most people still lack the basic living standards that we here in the West enjoy, but this situation will change in a few decades as the Indian economy grows.
My point is that you are wasting your time and energy by investing them in a developing country rather than a developed country. You complain so much about America, but it is easy for any objective person to see America is manifold times in a better state than India is in all areas: living standards, civil and human rights, infrastructure, welfare, social development. The West in general are high in these areas.
India is not ready for spiritualiy. America is. Again, you seem to be completely unaware of the growing spirituality in America and the West in general. I don’t know where to begin to put you in touch with this. I am very much in touch with the spirtual community in the West so I know the big changes that are happening in the West.
As much as I love and admire India, I am not limited to India. The world is my wider home and humanity is my wider family. I have the interests of humanity and the world in my mind, you have the interests of India in your mind. I am a humanist, you are a nationalist.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
Of course, I do not deny this. They are better of in all material/infrastructural aspects.
That’s fine. People thought much the same of America back in the good ol’ days. The thing is, change will NEVER come in India if we fortunate and educated Indians do not use our education/skills to help our own people. Change will never come if we continually side with those who seek to undermine us. Change will never come if you just give up the fight against oppression and destitution so easily. You are seriously starting to remind me of the moderate white majority of America during the Civil Rights movement who deplored the actions of the supremacists and yet made no effort to change it. As always, it is from the oppressed from which a leader and the desire to change comes. It wasn’t the supposedly benevolent and well-off white people; it was the black Martin Luther King Jr.
I am sorry but I simply have to disagree with this fatalistic notion. As MLK said, time is neutral. Time alone does not cure all things. The people have to take the initiative to write their own destinies. Wallowing in your despair, suffering, and pessimism does nothing. In a similar manner, simply saying that India isn’t receptive enough for spirituality based off of some social theory and from negative experiences is simply false.
No, I believe is it you who is wasting your time by choosing to be on the waning side. The West, like the waning moon, is declining. The East, like the waxing moon, is rising. It is hard to see it now, but it will happen. At the end of the day, New Ager ideals won’t save the day; the people here are still too immersed in their Western esoteric traditions and dogma. You misunderstand the Western fabric of ideology here. They consume whatever pleases them but in the end, it all makes no impression upon them. At the end of the day, it is their rich and affluent society versus the poor and ignorant rest of the world. At the end of the day, it is their “right” way versus the rest of the world who is emulating their ways.
Have you ever lived in America? Do you know what is happening here? Are you aware of the societal changes taking place? Britain is not America. Far from it actually. Besides, I know of the Osho/ISKCON movement stuff here. They are not what they once were SD. They have gained much disrepute due to scandals and etc and have declined in popularity. There is an ISKCON temple my family visits all the time. I only see 1 Asian and 1 white devotee there, the same ones I have seen for 4 years. The main devotees are the Hindu Indians who literally dance and sing in the middle of the room, praising Krishna and Radha. Life in America goes as it always has these days. The only thing Americans care about now is themselves, their economy, their international power, and so forth.
I wish this was the case SD. I wish it was the time for Hinduism to go global. However, its not. America is still ridiculously bound by its Christian and Western dogma. Bible-thumpers abound everywhere. Even the most “progressive” Christians are still tied to their religious dogma. You don’t have to look further than Thomas to see that.
The truth is that no real progress will be made until its values and ideals are shown to be as ignorant and destructive as everyone else makes it out to be. They are convinced their way works, works the best in fact. They are convinced that they have the “right” ideas and the best ideas. Abrahamic and Dharmic ideals are opposed to one another. You cannot deny that. The latter set of ideals have weakened, but only slightly. The time is not ripe yet SD. More preliminary work must be done to show the validity of our ways. Otherwise, you will just be seen as nothing more than a fanciful pundit whose ways will not supersede the established order but rather be assimilated into it, without making any serious general changes.
I am simply a realist who is bound to my country. I see no need to help those who need no help and in fact, largely have no interest in reforming themselves.
No, I believe is it you who is wasting your time by choosing to be on the waning side. The West, like the waning moon, is declining. The East, like the waxing moon, is rising. It is hard to see it now, but it will happen. At the end of the day, New Ager ideals won’t save the day; the people here are still too immersed in their Western esoteric traditions and dogma. You misunderstand the Western fabric of ideology here. They consume whatever pleases them but in the end, it all makes no impression upon them. At the end of the day, it is their rich and affluent society versus the poor and ignorant rest of the world. At the end of the day, it is their “right” way versus the rest of the world who is emulating their ways.
The West is not really waning, but it has progressed. Before the West was an industrial economy and today it is a knowledge economy based on service industries like information technology, multimedia and education. Today, most of its industrial needs are outsourced to the East. The East are industralizing. The West has already surpassed that stage; the East is clearly behind.
The East is only starting to enjoy the same kind of lifestyle we in the West have enjoyed for decades. The East have a taste for it and are living it up. On the other hand, we are in the West are developing a distaste for it and want something more meaningful. Now, again as you are not in touch with the spiritual community in the West, you are not aware of the massive changes that are taking place in the landscape of the West.
India, China etc are treading a path the West has already treaded. They are backwards compared to the West. They are not as developed, and hence why they are recognised as developing countries.
The West is the bringer of the future of this planet man. India is no longer the centre of the world. You are too attached to India. Let go.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51594]
India, China etc are treading a path the West has already treaded. They are backwards compared to the West. They are not as developed, and hence why they are recognised as developing countries.
The West is the bringer of the future of this planet man. India is no longer the centre of the world.[/QUOTE]
I doubt it. The west has only brought materialism and a heavily “me” oriented culture. Most of the undesirable changes which we see in India today are a result of mindless aping of the west, especially by the younger generation of Indians. Unfortunately many of my generation have lost touch with the values of their parents and have failed to impart it to thier children. This is perhaps the reason and of course the need for “success” -the parameters for success are defined by more money, bigger houses, bigger cars and so on… And more psychiatrists…
Why talk about the centre of the world ? Let us first centre ourselves …
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51594]The West is not really waning, but it has progressed. Before the West was an industrial economy and today it is a knowledge economy based on service industries like information technology, multimedia and education. Today, most of its industrial needs are outsourced to the East. The East are industralizing. The West has already surpassed that stage; the East is clearly behind.
The East is only starting to enjoy the same kind of lifestyle we in the West have enjoyed for decades. The East have a taste for it and are living it up. On the other hand, we are in the West are developing a distaste for it and want something more meaningful. Now, again as you are not in touch with the spiritual community in the West, you are not aware of the massive changes that are taking place in the landscape of the West.
India, China etc are treading a path the West has already treaded. They are backwards compared to the West. They are not as developed, and hence why they are recognised as developing countries.
The West is the bringer of the future of this planet man. India is no longer the centre of the world. You are too attached to India. Let go.[/QUOTE]
SURYA DEVA! These forums were incredibly boring without you! Where were you?
In depends on the area in question. Materially = West. Spiritually = East. West = Mockery of that Spirituality.
No, there is no widespread New Ager movement here. My parents have never mentioned such a thing (besides the ISKCON, Osho stuff) and they have lived here for 30 years. I have lived all over the U.S and have never seen such a thing. I have seen all the statistics of the U.S and nowhere do I see that such a change has penetrated this depressing society.
The truth is that America, in many ways, is not like the rest of the West (it rhymes :D). America is still deeply bound to its Christian roots to which it identifies itself strongly. Sure, Christianity is dying; however, people are still clinging embarrassingly onto Christian biases and Western chauvinism. Look at Indra Deva, Flex Penguin, The Scales, Lotusgirl, and others on the forum. Those are the SAME TYPE OF PEOPLE I come across every day; all talk and no show. I have seen very few people, even intellectuals, who do not have these biases. For example, I had this one brilliant Chinese kid in my class tell me that “White people are superior. Think about China. What else is there besides deserts and mountains?..Without the British, India would just be a bunch of tribes.” Something is unmistakable wrong here and you cannot deny that once you get around to living here and seeing what I have seen.
It is not a matter of letting go. It is a matter of pride and honor, suffering and wealth, ignorance and knowledge. When I see Hinduism insulted by the people on this forum with remarks like “Hinduism is in a pile of deep shit! All talk but shadowy reality” it doesn’t just hurt me as a Hindu but as an Indian. And you know what is sad? Its true. Most of it anyway, but enough of it is enough to strike you at the core.
Surya, I know you want to spread the glories of Hinduism but that cannot happen yet. Hinduism is identified to much with India and its culture and societal systems. In fact, if it weren’t for the caste system, imagine how much more receptive the world world would have been for the past century! The truth is that in order to get rid of these ad populum logical fallacies and ignorance, we must seek to better the very causes of those misconceptions: the poverty and misery in India. Let’s face it, hardly any Westerners want to wade through “a pile of shit” to get to the core of Hinduism and then have to face all the discrimination and ignorance and THEN waste the time to educate the ignorant people.
This isn’t a matter of nationalism or India. Its about restoring the integrity of the Indian people, a people among whom I was lucky enough to be reincarnated amongst, and its cultural, intellectual, and societal fabric.
Seriously, do you think anyone would have gave a rat’s ass about Greek philosophy if the region was poor and not a military and naval powerhouse and was constantly being invaded by Persia and what not? Do you think anyone would give much the same regard to Western and Chinese philosophy if the above conditions were true?
Lets face it, Hinduism is a joke the way it currently is and it is most certainly a bad joke to those who see the wisdom in our teachings AND, for example, the ignorant Indian pissing on the streets. In fact, I even contemplated converting to Buddhism just to escape from the misery of having to deal with all this inferiority complex. As shocking as it may sound, I even prayed to Jesus and Allah to help me find the right path.
No Indian, no HINDU should have to go through that. It shouldn’t be necessary considering the Truth in our scriptures. But of what avail is the Truth when it is hidden beneath a “pile of shit,” and hundreds of lies? Of what avail is the Truth when the very people and nations who seek to undermine us are the masters in this world?
This is why I want to help my country because I recognize that when it becomes great, the world will have no problem seeing the glories of Hinduism and the sameness of Indians. The same applies of any nation whose current state is akin to that of India and whose culture and history and rich in reality, but forgotten because of superficial considerations.
First off, I am not a Christian!
Secondly, SD…are you ready for this? I agree with you! Yes, it is true! 100% I just heard lightning strike! lol
Third, I love our President! Sorry Thomas! BTW, deficits have plummeted under Republicans. And Mr. Obama was left a mess to deal with.
Fourth, I do understand about bigotry in this country. But we have come such a long way recently. Where I live, Cincinnati Ohio, I am seeing less and less racism and more compassion and understanding. I am noticing and sensing more and more a subtle, but constant change spiritually. My yogini’s have notcied it too. We’ve had some great discussions about how differently this time feels. Like we are on the verge of something great. (speaking more globally here) And Nietzsche, where I live I really don’t see bias against Indians/Hindu’s. What I see is respect. It is unfortunate you have not had this experience. Perhaps it is the yoga and it’s community that I’ve surrounded myself with that leads me to think this way. I don’t know. But, take it from someone who grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, we have made great strides. We aren’t there yet, but I have faith we’ll get there. But then again, as SD knows, I’m a 1/2 full cup sort of gal. Suits me fine.