Hindutva

Spirituality Religion
#81

I look forward to your response.

I agree with you the West will not be truily spiritual as long chauvanism and ignorance exists, the West still has a long way to go before it reaches the levels India had reached in the past. But India has an even longer way to go before it reaches the levels it had reached in the past. Again, the stats are not lying India lags behind America significantly in all areas of development: civil and human rights, human development index, infrastructure, regulation, science and research.

Again, I will point out I have never had to get off a moving bus in the UK. In fact, here we press a bell, the bus driver stops, we say thank you and then get off our spot. I have never faced once in my entire life a girl getting harrassed on the bus. I have never faced cripples lying on the street and people walking past them as if they are not there. I have never seen tourists here get hassled on the streets. I have never been asked for a bribe and getting through airport customs is smoothe sailing.

In the words of the wise man Jesus: do not try to remove the splinter from your neighbours eye, when you have a beam in your own. You are making yourself look very silly and immature by condemning the West for its ignorance and chauvanism, when India suffers far worse from these problems. Like I said, I have lived both in the West and in India, and although India is my motherland, it is clear to any rational and sensible person the West is more civilised.

#82

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51658]I look forward to your response.

I agree with you the West will not be truily spiritual as long chauvanism and ignorance exists, the West still has a long way to go before it reaches the levels India had reached in the past. But India has an even longer way to go before it reaches the levels it had reached in the past. Again, the stats are not lying India lags behind America significantly in all areas of development: civil and human rights, human development index, infrastructure, regulation, science and research.

Again, I will point out I have never had to get off a moving bus in the UK. In fact, here we press a bell, the bus driver stops, we say thank you and then get off our spot. I have never faced once in my entire life a girl getting harrassed on the bus. I have never faced cripples lying on the street and people walking past them as if they are not there. I have never seen tourists here get hassled on the streets. I have never been asked for a bribe and getting through airport customs is smoothe sailing.

In the words of the wise man Jesus: do not try to remove the splinter from your neighbours eye, when you have a beam in your own. You are making yourself look very silly and immature by condemning the West for its ignorance and chauvanism, when India suffers far worse from these problems. Like I said, I have lived both in the West and in India, and although India is my motherland, it is clear to any rational and sensible person the West is more civilised.[/QUOTE]

…Assuming America will survive by then and not politically and economically fracture. From what I can see, the signs aren’t good at all. :wink:

Yes, I do not deny this.

Funny thing about buses in “civilized” countries. When my family and I were vacationing in London, my parents got into an argument (furious whisper type) on the best spot to get off of. The tour guide overheard our argument and walked to the part of the bus we were on. What he did next was shocking; he yelled at us for not listening properly, in fact yelled into the microphone so that the whole bus and the people on the adjacent streets could hear. It was honestly the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to me or my family in our entire lives.

Another situation was when during the morning of the day we were meant to leave London, the manager of the hotel told us to get some breakfast, saying that the workers in the breakfast area would let us in on his command even though there was still a 30 minute more wait for the area to open. We went to the breakfast area and told the white lady there what the manager had told us. She refused to let us in despite the fact that there were two or three (white) families already eating in the area.

Additionally, a hotel employee told us that the hotel could book a taxi for us on the first day of our arrival. Now, we are not the most cognizant of tourists and the commission factor slipped out of our minds since

1). We were busy just trying to take in the city.
2). They never told us.

Imagine our infuriation when the taxi driver asked for double the money so he could go back and pay the hotel the commission.

In France, we were waiting for a bus to take us back to our hotel. It was beginning to get dark and we were tired from a day full of touring and so forth. We confirmed the timings, route number, and the location of the stop so we would get picked up by the right bus. The bus arrived, we got on, and patiently waited. As time drew on, we realized that the bus was actually taking us [I]further[/I] away from the hotel and into the heart of Paris. We checked the routes in the brochure, saw that everything was part of the route and patiently waited again. However, more and more people began to get off and we were beginning to get worried. When the last person got off the bus, we told the driver about our predicament and asked him whether he could drop us to a location closer to our hotel. He simply said “No, it is getting late and I have to go. Get out” and kicked us out at a stop almost twice as far as we were previously. The walk was long and hard and my parents, who have back and leg problems, had to sit out the next day.

Uhm, the crippled on the streets are ignored here as well. The impoverished and the destitute are ignored everywhere, in every city. They are not ignored out of malice but rather out of a desire to not associate oneself with such poignant and painful events. This is especially true in developing countries.

Lol, I have seen girls here get harassed everywhere and all the time here SD. In India, all the people I have seen are modest. You honestly sound like you take vacations in Bihar or some other poor Northern state. You still haven’t answered WHERE you visit. I seriously want to know now. In Hyderabad, I have never seen anything similar to what you describe.

My family has never been asked for a bribe in any airport in India. Again, what place do you visit? You seem awfully unwilling to tell me this crucial factor.

India suffers far worse than the West in ignorance and chauvinism? What are you saying? Do you really think any India would think they are materially superior to the West? The idea is laughable, even for me. Besides, I have never seen an Indian from India say anything like this. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of Americans scorn other nations, religions, and cultures while being confident about theirs.

#83

You are a very silly young man Nietzsche I must say! You do come up with some wild things!

Regarding the paraphrasing:

The reason for me posting this is to shed light on the plight of women. It is not just women in India, it is women across the globe. Another reason for posting this is to point out that India and Hinduism does indeed have a history of violence. Violence against women. This is contrary to what Surya Deva has written. The women of India have fought long and hard for their independence and should be commended and respected by both other cultures and their Hindu culture.

This is what I actually wrote. Your paraphrasing took it out of context. I was trying to show SD that India/HInduism does have some violence in their history.

The parable thing, well, it’s a dead horse in the religious thread. Been there done that, tried to explain but to no avail. 2 camps, 2 interpretations.

And yes, I’d like to think that yoga has “enlightened” some people I associate with. Especially my students! Civilized is not the correct word and was an unnecessary comment.

Again, I find it sad that you’ve experienced such chauvinism and ignorance in the US.

#84

Another irony that needs to be exposed that although you are condemning Western culture, it is blatantly clear Indians want Western culture. If we look at the everyday Indian media and entertainment industry, it is clear to see just how much Indians want Western culture:

Western sex:


Britney spears wannabe:

Cheeky girl, pole dancer wananbe:

Western youth and college culture:


Western hip hop and music:

English song wannabe:

Hollywood special effects wannabe:

Do not pretend that that these are isolated examples, they are highly common and fill Indian television and media. The Indian public are constantly bombarded by this imagery and look up to this culture. Now, where exactly is the Indian culture in all of this? Where is Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Ayurveda, dharma? Nowhere to be seen. Instead all you can see is imitations of Western culture. Indians at large are not interested in spirituality.

#85

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;51661]You are a very silly young man Nietzsche I must say! You do come up with some wild things!

Regarding the paraphrasing:

This is what I actually wrote. Your paraphrasing took it out of context. I was trying to show SD that India/HInduism does have some violence in their history.

The parable thing, well, it’s a dead horse in the religious thread. Been there done that, tried to explain but to no avail. 2 camps, 2 interpretations.

And yes, I’d like to think that yoga has “enlightened” some people I associate with. Especially my students! Civilized is not the correct word and was an unnecessary comment.

Again, I find it sad that you’ve experienced such chauvinism and ignorance in the US.[/QUOTE]

Lol. So wrong. It isn’t “HINDUISM” silly but rather INDIAN SOCIETY. HOW HARD IS THAT TO GRASP?

You are basically saying the same thing as what I “paraphrased.”

No, "enlightened " is not the correct word. No one is enlightened, especially Westerners with their materialism and so forth.

They are “civilized” in the sense that they have outgrown their discriminatory views of “inferior” cultures, religions, and nations (a natural viewpoint that comes out of being raised in the West) and learned to see the inner qualities, so to speak.

I too find it sad that I have been subjected to the most common temperamental deficiencies in the U.S.

#86

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51662]Another irony that needs to be exposed that although you are condemning Western culture, it is blatantly clear Indians want Western culture. If we look at the everyday Indian media and entertainment industry, it is clear to see just how much Indians want Western culture:

Western sex:


Britney spears wannabe:

Cheeky girl, pole dancer wananbe:

Western youth and college culture:


Western hip hop and music:

English song wannabe:

Hollywood special effects wannabe:

Do not pretend that that these are isolated examples, they are highly common and fill Indian television and media. The Indian public are constantly bombarded by this imagery and look up to this culture. Now, where exactly is the Indian culture in all of this? Where is Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Ayurveda, dharma? Nowhere to be seen. Instead all you can see is imitations of Western culture. Indians at large are not interested in spirituality.[/QUOTE]

Lol? Is this a joke? And where do you think is the spirituality in the Western counterparts? You say nothing of it and yet, Westerners are “constantly bombarded by this imagery and look up to this culture.” In fact, more Americans know more about pop culture stuff than about anything academic related. Several statistics have been done in this area. Again, where is the spirituality in that?

If I wasn’t so paranoid about sexual stuff (no, I did not look at your links because of…you know :D), I too could search up millions of similar things, including porn and what not.

#87

In every single area of Indian society Indians want Western culture. Not only that, they want to look like Western people.

In the West ads for skin bleaching and whitening creams would be decried as racist and be taken down by civil rights organizations, in India they are common:


So obsessed with the West Indians are, that it not an uncommon practice to have white backup dancers in Indian films just to make it more cooler. All of India today is a copy and imitation of the West.

#88

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51666]In every single area of Indian society Indians want Western culture. Not only that, they want to look like Western people.

In the West ads for skin bleaching and whitening creams would be decried as racist and be taken down by civil rights organizations, in India they are common:


So obsessed with the West Indians are, that it not an uncommon practice to have white backup dancers in Indian films just to make it more cooler. All of India today is a copy and imitation of the West.[/QUOTE]

Again, where is the supposed rise in spirituality in the Western world in its own media, which is also heavily bombard with crude and crass material on sex, incest, drugs, porn, and so forth?

You are far to idealistic about the West’s progress. It is failing. I more unrest and more ignorance on a daily basis. I can feel it in the atmosphere, this depressing and patronizing atmosphere.

#89

Nietzsche, we will get to that eventually, but first we need to make it visibly clear here on this forum that you have absolutely no right to criticise the Western people, when Indians themselves wants to be the West and craves for its culture and lifestyle. You have no right to complain about Western behaviour, when India compared to the West lags behind significantly in human and civil rights and human development index.

You are starting to look like a hypocrite and your double standards are far too obvious. For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.

#90

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51670]Nietzsche, we will get to that eventually, but first we need to make it visibly clear here on this forum that you have absolutely no right to criticise the Western people, when Indians themselves wants to be the West and craves for its culture and lifestyle. You have no right to complain about Western behaviour, when India compared to the West lags behind significantly in human and civil rights and human development index.

You are starting to look like a hypocrite and your double standards are far too obvious. For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I have long acknowledged that these problems exist in India. The reason I don’t even mention them is because EVERYONE knows about it. What person hasn’t heard of the wannabe-Hollywood Bollywood film industry? What person doesn’t know that India is besieged with masses of ignorant poor people? What person doesn’t think that Indian people are uncivilized trash that are living hypocrites of their supposedly great religion?

There is one big difference though. While India is emulating the West, it is doing so out of ignorance and the misconception that simply because the West is rich because of its ideology and culture, India must follow in its footsteps to become the same.

The West, on the other hand, is lordly and awfully stuffy about all this. They laugh at the pathetic attempts of the countries to emulate their ways. Everything they do regarding the rest of the world is tinged with scorn and a degree of patronization.

I don’t know about you, but these arrogant and supremacist views are exactly what caused them to eff up the world for the past century or two.

The reason I point out the West’s faults is because they think they are civilized when their very pop-culture, culture, ideology, and etc is in dire contradiction to that.

India on the other hand can make no such real claim; it has nothing to brag about materially and while it is spiritually more advanced, its material condition has nothing to reflecting that in its infrastructure. Most Indians, including myself, are aware of this. However, that does not mean the Indian people are spiritually lacking. It is one thing to do what Westerners do and absorb themselves in this hedonism. Indians, on the other hand, know their limits. For all the ridiculous and factually false claims you make about the entire Indian populace, it still produces some of the highest numbers of engineers and doctors in the world. If Indians were as so drunk and debased as you say they are, something on that scale would never happen. The West, especially, America, can make no similar claim. In fact, their spot in the International education system rankings is DROPPING.

I am a hypocrite? You said “For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.” This means you just admitted the West also has the same faults as India.

Another time? No, lets discuss it now. You certainly seem to have no problem pulling up links from Youtube (:lol:) that depict the supposed debauchery of the WHOLE Indian societal fabric. Why not pull up similar links on the West? If the faults are one and the same, why the hesitation? It should be easy. You c/p’d a link on a wannabe Indian Brittney Spears, so why not post a link on Brittney Spears herself? In fact, I could have easily pulled up a Western counterpart to each and every one of those links you posted. However, I didn’t want to primarily because I don’t look for sentimental material to prove a point. I stick to experiences and objective fact.

You still haven’t told me where in India you visit. This would be the 4th or 5th time you have not answered this question. You seem to visit an area in the Northern India, the poorest region. Why don’t you try visiting the South? You will get a much better reflection of Indian culture there. There, Bollywood isn’t as rampant (they have what I think is called Tollywood) and the film industry there actually makes INTELLIGENT and UNIQUE (shocking isn’t it? :D) movies. The media there is much more toned down, Hindu philosophy and spirituality are on the rise, the poor are in fewer numbers, and the Indians are generally more rich.

Besides, I have every right to exercise my right of free speech and criticize the faults of the West. In conclusion, the faults in the West are more serious because

1). They are arrogant.
2). They rule the world.
3). This combination of exactly arrogance combined with the justification for that arrogance doesn’t make for a very nice world.

EDIT: Sorry for any bad grammar. I got only 4 hours of sleep last night since I had to study for so many tests…

#91

The growing spirituality in the West. Spirituality in the West can be traced to the age of enlightenment with the rise of an intellectual class of Westerners comprising philosophers, poets, writers, scientists and artists, which were also called romantics or transcendentalists. They were characterized by generally a love for nature, criticism of capitalism and religion, upholding secular and humanist values and openess towards integrating Eastern spirituality. This antipode towards the materialism and capitalism later engendered the new age movement, counter-cultural movement, feminist movements and human potential movement. The actual size of this demographic of Westerners is difficult to estimate because it is not an organized group, but rather consists of individuals who share common beliefs and attitudes and consumerist practices.

In terms of common consumerist practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

The size of this demographic in the West alone is estimated to be approx 50 million people. These generally comprise of the more affluent sector of society, and their influence and share of the US consumer market is large. Their influence on US society in general can be gauged by the acceptance of spirituality in the mainstream media, lifestyle and even in academia. Although, spirituality is still not the most popular cultural activity in the West, its influence is growing significantly.

Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability (LOHAS) is a demographic defining a particular market segment related to sustainable living, "green" ecological initiatives, and generally composed of a relatively upscale and well-educated population segment. Researchers have reported a range of sizes of the LOHAS market segment. For example, Worldwatch Institute reported that the LOHAS market segment in the year 2006 was estimated at $300 billion, approximately 30% of the U.S. consumer market;[1][2][3] and, a study by the Natural Marketing Institute showed that in 2007, 40 million Americans were included within the LOHAS demographic.[citation needed] The author Paul H. Ray, who coined the term Cultural Creatives in his book by the same name, explains that "What you're seeing is a demand for products of equal quality that are also virtuous."[4][5] Included in the cultural creative demographic are consumers of New Age goods and services.[1][6]

#92

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51673]The growing spirituality in the West. Spirituality in the West can be traced to the age of enlightenment with the rise of an intellectual class of Westerners comprising philosophers, poets, writers, scientists and artists, which were also called romantics or transcendentalists. They were characterized by generally a love for nature, criticism of capitalism and religion, upholding secular and humanist values and openess towards integrating Eastern spirituality. This antipode towards the materialism and capitalism later engendered the new age movement, counter-cultural movement, feminist movements and human potential movement. The actual size of this demographic of Westerners is difficult to estimate because it is not an organized group, but rather consists of individuals who share common beliefs and attitudes and consumerist practices.

In terms of common consumerist practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

The size of this demographic in the West alone is estimated to be approx 50 million people. These generally comprise of the more affluent sector of society, and their influence and share of the US consumer market is large. Their influence on US society in general can be gauged by the acceptance of spirituality in the mainstream media, lifestyle and even in academia. Although, spirituality is still not the most popular cultural activity in the West, its influence is growing significantly.

Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability (LOHAS) is a demographic defining a particular market segment related to sustainable living, “green” ecological initiatives, and generally composed of a relatively upscale and well-educated population segment. Researchers have reported a range of sizes of the LOHAS market segment. For example, Worldwatch Institute reported that the LOHAS market segment in the year 2006 was estimated at $300 billion, approximately 30% of the U.S. consumer market;[1][2][3] and, a study by the Natural Marketing Institute showed that in 2007, 40 million Americans were included within the LOHAS demographic.[citation needed] The author Paul H. Ray, who coined the term Cultural Creatives in his book by the same name, explains that “What you’re seeing is a demand for products of equal quality that are also virtuous.”[4][5] Included in the cultural creative demographic are consumers of New Age goods and services.[1][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOHAS[/QUOTE]

You know, there is a reason these people were called PHILOSOPHERS. They have nice ideas that shaped individual lives but I have yet to see a philosopher that transforms a Western nation PERMANENTLY based on ideology alone. For example, I have yet to see Nietzsche’s ideas…you get the point. I have yet to see capitalism overthrown. I have yet to see people WANTING capitalism to be destroyed on a large scale and not simply be blaming the government and the elites.

What the heck? How does organic food and hybrid cars reflect a trend in spirituality? If anything, it reflects a pragmatic concern for the environment and one’s well being. For example, the fact that America has the fattest people in the world is the very reason people try out health products and herbal supplements and what not. If anything else, it reflects a “me” orientation rather than “self” orientation.

Ecological conditions != +spirituality. Just so you know, China is making the very same advancements and I don’t see an ounce of spirituality there.

As for New Age stuff, thats nice. I have yet to see a Westerner who actually reforms himself based on this material and doesn’t think he is superior in every way. Look at Indra Deva, for example, and you will know what I mean.

#93

Well, the point here is clear the West has such a movement, India and China does not. India and China are in the process of industralizing and are now like the West once did, polluting the atmosphere, cutting down the forests and raping the Earth of its resources. The air quality in an average Indian and Chinese city is virtually toxic. This is because they lack ecological awareness, which is certainly part and parcel of spirituality, because it reflects what the sociologist quoted above called a demand for equal quality and virtuous products.

Spirituality is very intimately tied in with ecology for it reflects that one is aware of nature and the need to live an ethical lifestyle to maintain balance. Indeed, this is what Vedic teachings also teach. While, India and China are shamelessly polluting the world, the West is striving for clean, greener and healthier lifestyles.

You are really behaving like a silly billy now. You are exaggering the rise of 30% Indians of which even a fewer percentage have comparable living standards to the West and downplaying the 70% Indians living in extreme poverty under rampant corruption, illiteracy and malnutition. And you are downplaying the 20-30% spiritual westerners who are striving for ecological living and mind-body-spirit harmony.

For the record I have visited the following areas of India: Delhi, Jaipur, Mumbai, Goa, Kerela, Hyderabad, Bangalore. I have not found a single place in India where the majority landscape was not poverty, corruption and illiteracy.

You are obviously not facing facts.

Edit: I really don’t know how you can claim Indians are spiritually superior to the West, when they allow skin bleaching ads to be shown and have a corruption rating many times higher that of USA, UK, Japan etc.

#94

Nietzsche,

If you so hate the west and America in particular, do you plan on moving back to India?

And one final thought for you to ponder. When you surround yourself with negativity, that is all you receive. Its like with raising children, I found it better to use positive reinforcement with our children than negative/punishment. When you surround yourself with a positive environment and think in those terms, even the negative can be looked at as something positive. Much healthier then having a more “victim-like” mentality.

#95

Normally, Lotusgirl I would dismiss the argument of why do you stay in the West, if you are so critical of it as a logical fallacy. Surely, one can be critical of the West and still remain in the West. But in the case of Neitzsche, his gripe does not actually appear to be with Western philosophy and culture i.e.,the conceptual part, but with Western people itself. He seems to find no redeeming value of Western people at all, and ironically the Indian people he is trumpeting, want to be like Western people, even look like them. So it is not a fallacy to ask Neitzsche what the heck is he doing living in the West for 11 years if he hates Western people so much and considers himself a constant victim of ignorance and chauvanism?

Another ironic thing is Neitzsche has faced so many bad experiences with Western people, when most Indians I know have not actually faced bad experiences with Western people and integrated very well into Western culture. On the other hand, he claims the common experiences foreingers have in India of being hassled by touts on the streets, Western women travellers having to cover up to avoid sexual advances, and having to bribe authorities at airports etc are not common.

I have seen a very different world to Neitzsche. This is either because it all subjective and we just happened to have had different experiences, or because Neitzsche is biassed towards seeing the worst in the West and the best in India. I would be inclined to thinking it is the latter, because I know my experiences are more common than Neitzsche’s. It sounds like Neitzsche has a bit of a chip on his shoulder.

#96

Indians, on the other hand, know their limits. For all the ridiculous and factually false claims you make about the entire Indian populace, it still produces some of the highest numbers of engineers and doctors in the world. If Indians were as so drunk and debased as you say they are, something on that scale would never happen. The West, especially, America, can make no similar claim. In fact, their spot in the International education system rankings is DROPPING.

I find this funny. You just said that having ecological awareness and ethical consumerist practices have nothing to do with spirituality, but you think producing an army of doctors and engineers is? India produces more doctors and engineers because it has a bigger population and a strong work ethic because it is poor. It is the same in China. It was the same in the West at the dawn of capitalism, it has a strong work ethic and everybody wanted to be an engineer or doctor. Later on, these values fell as Western society started to rise up against modernism. India is going through a similar growth phase.

By the way India does not have better education than the West. If this was true, why do wealthy Indians go abroad to study? India lacks a single world-class university. Look at the global ranking of universities, Indian universities are barely to be seen anywhere on them.

I am having to point out all these anti-India facts because of the silly exaggerations you are making. You are inviting anti-India material. Now, is that not ironic, considering I am Indian myself and love India to bits.

The West, on the other hand, is lordly and awfully stuffy about all this. They laugh at the pathetic attempts of the countries to emulate their ways. Everything they do regarding the rest of the world is tinged with scorn and a degree of patronization.

I mean come on, look at the above youtube clips they are indeed laughable to a Westerner. They are trying so hard to be like the West. Indian would get a lot more respect in the world if it did not try so hard to be like the West, but retained its Indianess. The Chinese, for example, produce martial arts epics and they are hugely appreciated and respected around the world. India, too has a vast culture of Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Natya etc, why does it not represent that? There is a huge market for Yoga in the world, which Indians are not tapping - why - because they don’t really care about spirituality as I have said over and over again - they crave Western culture. But this is exactly what makes them laughable.

I am a hypocrite? You said “For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.” This means you just admitted the West also has the same faults as India.

Nope, what I am showing here that if you criticise the West for something, a similar fault can be found in India. So why are you engaging in a pointless mudslinging contest by slinging mud at the West, when the West can sling the same kind of mud back at you?
You should stop pretending that India is any better than the West. For better or worse, India is following in the footsteps of the West today. The West is not following India.

Why not pull up similar links on the West?

Because we already know that stuff exists in the West because obviously it has to, for the Indian one to be an imitation. I never claimed the West was a bastion of virtue, it is an incredibly debauched place. But India is no less debauched, and by many indices much more debauched. However, there is a rising class of spiritual Westerners, who are affluent and influencial in all spheres of Western society. They are the product of disenchantment with modernism, materialism and capitalism, and they are craving spirituality and a spiritual world.

Where there is demand, there is supply. In India, there is little to no demand for spirituality - hence little supply in terms of spirituality. In the West there is demand for spirituality - hence a supply of spirituality. Even if we look at mainstream movies, such as Julia Roberts recent spiritual movie, “Eat, Pray, Love” that managed to be a significant success in the West. Not in India. In India, Western imports that have been succesfull have been Spiderman 1 and 2, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter - enough said, yes?

Where is the Indian equivalent of the Secret, What the bleep do we know, Celestine prophecies, The peaceful warrior, the alchemist, what dreams may come?

Why is almost all Yoga research and parapsychological research done in the West?

Why is Yoga such a massive industry in the West, whereas back home only in the last few years has it been revived?

The answer is resoundingly clear: The West has demand for spirituality. India does not. Therefore Hinduism cannot take off in India, but it will take off in the West. The new-age movement in the West is lacking the scientific and sacred rigour of Hinduism, but it is Hinduism in the making. In order to catalyse its development Hindus like you and me need to join it and and expose it to the pure Vedic Hinduism. Recently, I was in the city centre with my friend and I bumped into this man who was new-age and spiritual, without me saying anything he surprised me when he told us, “I have looked all kinds of traditions of spirituality, and the Vedic tradition is the best, most scientific, most comprehensive and precise” My mate then said, “Don’t get my friend started on the Vedic tradition” in humour and he said rather seriously, “No, I want him to get started, because the Vedic stuff needs to be heard by all”

Do your dharma as a Hindu and make the whole world Aryan just as our Risis wanted.

#97

Agree. I just honestly feel so sad that anyone would have so many bad experiences at such a young age. Perhaps it is where he is living currently and it’s more isolated to that area. I don’t know. Of course I do see some of what N says from time to time, but not to the extreme extend he is sharing with us.

I live in a very conservative area. The midwest in general is very conservative. They like things to stay the way they were. They don’t like progress. Cincinnati is always the last to “get” anything. We had a racial riot back in 2001 I believe. Can’t remember what it was about now, but since then, so much has changed. Changed for the better. And it keeps changing for the better. We also have a large percentage of Indian Doctors here and they are highly respected. I have never seen any mistreatment of Indian/Hindu’s here.

And while I have not traveled beyond North America, I have traveled extensively throughout. I, in all my almost 53 years, haven’t seen what N has shared. I’ve been North, South, East and West. My experiences, like yours, have been for the most part good. And that is not to say bad things don’t happen. I know they do. Not everyone is kind and compassionate. With having said that, have I heard jokes about Indians running convenient stores? Yes. Just like I hear jokes about Italians being stallions and their mafia connections, Poles not being able to change light bulbs, Irish drinking,etc. You understand my point I hope. No one culture or group seems to have escaped the jokes.

The west has as much to offer as the east. A perfect society would be a blending of the two. Perhaps it is heading that way with India becoming more of a global player in economics and the West becoming more spiritual. Kind of a role reversal, but maybe at some point we’ll get it that east and west can coexist and thrive together.

#98

By the way, regarding the commmon corruption problems at Indian airports:

http://hindustan.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88
http://grommit.com/blogs/poorna/?p=38

In the above links various people have experienced high levels of corruption, demands for bribes and hassles at the following international airports: Indira Ghandi International(New Delhi), Mumbai international, and Bangalore international.

Are you ready to face the facts?

#99

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51716]I find this funny. You just said that having ecological awareness and ethical consumerist practices have nothing to do with spirituality, but you think producing an army of doctors and engineers is? India produces more doctors and engineers because it has a bigger population and a strong work ethic because it is poor. It is the same in China. It was the same in the West at the dawn of capitalism, it has a strong work ethic and everybody wanted to be an engineer or doctor. Later on, these values fell as Western society started to rise up against modernism. India is going through a similar growth phase.

By the way India does not have better education than the West. If this was true, why do wealthy Indians go abroad to study? India lacks a single world-class university. Look at the global ranking of universities, Indian universities are barely to be seen anywhere on them.

I am having to point out all these anti-India facts because of the silly exaggerations you are making. You are inviting anti-India material. Now, is that not ironic, considering I am Indian myself and love India to bits.

I mean come on, look at the above youtube clips they are indeed laughable to a Westerner. They are trying so hard to be like the West. Indian would get a lot more respect in the world if it did not try so hard to be like the West, but retained its Indianess. The Chinese, for example, produce martial arts epics and they are hugely appreciated and respected around the world. India, too has a vast culture of Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Natya etc, why does it not represent that? There is a huge market for Yoga in the world, which Indians are not tapping - why - because they don’t really care about spirituality as I have said over and over again - they crave Western culture. But this is exactly what makes them laughable.

Nope, what I am showing here that if you criticise the West for something, a similar fault can be found in India. So why are you engaging in a pointless mudslinging contest by slinging mud at the West, when the West can sling the same kind of mud back at you?
You should stop pretending that India is any better than the West. For better or worse, India is following in the footsteps of the West today. The West is not following India.

Because we already know that stuff exists in the West because obviously it has to, for the Indian one to be an imitation. I never claimed the West was a bastion of virtue, it is an incredibly debauched place. But India is no less debauched, and by many indices much more debauched. However, there is a rising class of spiritual Westerners, who are affluent and influencial in all spheres of Western society. They are the product of disenchantment with modernism, materialism and capitalism, and they are craving spirituality and a spiritual world.

Where there is demand, there is supply. In India, there is little to no demand for spirituality - hence little supply in terms of spirituality. In the West there is demand for spirituality - hence a supply of spirituality. Even if we look at mainstream movies, such as Julia Roberts recent spiritual movie, “Eat, Pray, Love” that managed to be a significant success in the West. Not in India. In India, Western imports that have been succesfull have been Spiderman 1 and 2, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter - enough said, yes?

Where is the Indian equivalent of the Secret, What the bleep do we know, Celestine prophecies, The peaceful warrior, the alchemist, what dreams may come?

Why is almost all Yoga research and parapsychological research done in the West?

Why is Yoga such a massive industry in the West, whereas back home only in the last few years has it been revived?

The answer is resoundingly clear: The West has demand for spirituality. India does not. Therefore Hinduism cannot take off in India, but it will take off in the West. The new-age movement in the West is lacking the scientific and sacred rigour of Hinduism, but it is Hinduism in the making. In order to catalyse its development Hindus like you and me need to join it and and expose it to the pure Vedic Hinduism. Recently, I was in the city centre with my friend and I bumped into this man who was new-age and spiritual, without me saying anything he surprised me when he told us, “I have looked all kinds of traditions of spirituality, and the Vedic tradition is the best, most scientific, most comprehensive and precise” My mate then said, “Don’t get my friend started on the Vedic tradition” in humour and he said rather seriously, “No, I want him to get started, because the Vedic stuff needs to be heard by all”

Do your dharma as a Hindu and make the whole world Aryan just as our Risis wanted.[/QUOTE]

No, I said that the fact that producing an army of QUALITY doctors an engineers to such degrees is clearly not indicative of the moral corruption of Indians to such ridiculous proportions as you tout.

Regardless, even the percentages of engineers and doctors produced are higher in India/China than in the U.S.

On the other hand, ecological awareness here goes all the way back pre-WW2 times. It isn’t a product of increasing spirituality. It is the product of the activism of scientists and environmentalists who clearly saw the effects of industrialization on the environment. As such, they aren’t concerned about spirituality but rather on preserving the beauty of their nation. I don’t see anything but nationalism and pride. It is a natural, pragmatic, and understandable response and not the product of the Dharmic ideology flooding the West.

Are you serious? It WASN’T the same in the West. Everybody didn’t want to be a doctor or an engineer. In fact, most people were either business owners or wage earners. You can easily see that in any AP Euro or AP U.S History textbook, like the one I have. Even after post-WW2, most people just became what they wanted to be rather than engineers or doctors. In fact, this country repeatedly has issues where the shortage of doctors and engineers have politicians scuttling on their toes.

The U.S has a crappy education system. In fact, their spot in the world has been FAST declining. I see news everyday where Americans are bemoaning the fate of their education system. Talk to any American and they will tell you that their education system sucks. Even may of the supremacist and chauvinistic friends I have laugh at our education system. The only thing education related that is world-class in the U.S is the colleges and universities. But even then, most Americans have nothing to show for it. Thats the point I am making. India, on the other hand, is making the most out of what little it is has (I already know that Indian education system is still relatively subpar) and is still producing some of the most educated and brightest people in the world. Despite different educational opportunities, Americans are still largely ignorant whereas the younger generation of Indians are not. You can easily see that when someone comes up and asks you “Is India is Africa?” (I am not joking, some person actually asked me that)

Lol? I have been living in the U.S ever since I was 6 and my parents have been living here for 30 years approx. I have moved and traveled extensively throughout the U.S. On the other hand, you are just someone in Britain who THINKS they know about America just because of outdated statistics and about India because they lived in a poor North Indian place. Once again, where in India have you visited? I suggest you visit South India fast.

What are you talking about? Everyone here is SICK of Chinese Kung Fu movies these days. No one wants to see “Karate Kid ‘n’” and Bruce Li movies for the millionth time. In fact, those kinds of movies generally flop unless they actually have a good PLOT, which most of them don’t. Besides, part of the reason such Asian movies are doing relatively OK here, despite their low quality, is because of the ubiquitous Western interest in Asian culture. Asian culture, especially martial arts and anime, is the craze here whereas Yoga is generally thought of as more of a “fitness” trend. Martial arts trumps Yoga any day, in many Westerner’s eyes. I honestly don’t know one American who prefers India to, say, China or Japan in terms of their culture and “awesomeness.” After all, who cares about a poor country that can’t feed half its people? “Eat, Love, and Pray”? Never heard of it, not one bit and I am well in tuned with the media here. In fact, Inception and the Dark Knight were the craze here, and they were actually GOOD movies. I have watched them both many times over and am still not tired of them. In fact, I just can’t resist logging off of these forums and watching some good bits again.

Shows like “Outsourced,” on the other hand, are scorned here. That show is highly degrading and promotes many stereotypes about Hinduism and India.

As for why there aren’t Indian-culture like hits here, the answer lies within the way Indians know they are portrayed and scorned in the West. Whereas the Japanese and Chinese cultures and traditions are seen as “cool” and exotic, India’s culture just seems silly. I mean, comon, many gods, drinking from a polluted river, worshipping stones, no martial arts (seriously, what is a skinny half naked man going around preaching non-violence going to do against Jet Li or Jackie Chan?), so much poverty, and so forth. Many Indians are ashamed of their heritage, and so was I at one point. The sad thing is that this is not without reason, considering all the misinformation and lies on that abound throughout the West about India. It is part of the reason why I think India deserves more help than the West (which is DOING all this cultural subversion).

Hey guess what? Those have also been top hits here and were, in fact, even more popular here than in India! W00T! Hai-FivE (Borat voice).

Actually, if I remember correctly, this whole convo got started when I was arguing with you about whether China would invade India. It got even more intense when you said India was a lost cause. I replied by saying that despite India’s faults the flame for revival still burns bright, unlike the West which is still sunk in its ignorance and chauvinism. And besides, you are right. The West does not want India.

You know what? I agree with you there! In fact, I too hate how many Indians and India in general try to be like the West! But it is scorned not because Indians aren’t being themselves but because an inferior and barbaric race with a baseless and mythological culture, is trying so hard to be civilized. However, you are wrong in thinking that this Western wannabe mindset has pervaded all throughout India and has completely eradicated all potential for spirituality. In fact, the first and second Great Awakenings, religious and cultural revivals in America, didn’t happen for decades after its religion and culture started declining. Such revivals happen everywhere. Why are you so glum about India’s prospects? It is only about 2 decades into its economic high-times, a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things. Besides, it sure as hell won’t come if all Indians are depressed about their true heritage, culture, and nation (like you) and if SOMEONE doesn’t make the effort. Scorn me all you want and shit on India all you want but that is where my heart lies. To me, even living in a relatively poor area is fine as long as I have opportunity to help someone and make personal and emotional connections.

Nope, I am criticizing the West for its chauvinism and supremacist ideologies, ideologies that pervade all throughout the West and reside within the hearts and minds of every Westerner. Look at Indra Deva, Flex Penguin, the Scales, Lotus Girl, and others on this forum who claim they are “spiritually advanced” but are actually so ignorant and hypocritical they don’t even realize it. And the West, instead of helping others (while respecting their views and cultures), scorns them and directly/indirectly puts pressure on them to adopts the “habits of civilized life.” They think they are superior in every way or path and I am trying to show that they are being hypocritical when doing so. The condition in India is besides the point. Instead of scorning India, why can’t Westerners just leave of the ignorance and the criticisms out of the question and, for once, lend a helping hand? Why ignore the fact that they were the ones who raped India to that condition in the first place? I don’t understand how you think I say India is better than the West overall (which is isn’t) when I am merely criticizing the arrogant and ignorant perceptions that form the backbone of Western society.

There is also a “a rising class of spiritual [Indians], who are affluent and influencial in all spheres of [Indian] society. They are the product of disenchantment with modernism, materialism and capitalism, and they are craving spirituality and a spiritual world.” My family back in India is one of them. You just haven’t seen the demand in spirituality throughout India. My family and I have seen it on a mass scale. I don’t understand how you can base India off of a poor North Indian place.

The West demands spirituality but it not spiritual. It cannot be spiritual as long as this “spirituality” runs parallel with its inherent chauvinism. India on the other hand is ready for Hinduism, in fact a different kind of Hinduism. The New Ager movement is a movement lacking any real backbone. It does not know itself.

No, I will not aid the West until it realizes its arrogant hypocrisy and reforms itself. Meanwhile, I will keep my retaded plans to help my shit colored, barbarian, uncivilized, wanna-Wester, dirt poor, debauched, idol-worshipping, and casteist bigoted race, mmk? I will try not to jump into a puddle of shit if I hear news of our dear (foolish is our pride in this wannabe Hollywood actor, no?) Amitabh happening to pass by the shantytown I might end up living in. I will try to restrain myself from drinking from the Ganges river even though my inherent desire to pay homage to baseless and stupid rituals is strong. I will try to not smell like curry and try not to have that odor exude from my armpits.

We are not going to change each others mind. I am growing weary of these arguments not because it wastes one to two hours of the time I could spend doing school work but because I LOVE arguing my point. It is an addiction I am proud to have but in this case, it is just tiring me. We are literally saying the same exact underlying thing to each other in every post. Of course, it isn’t as if there is much else to say in these matters…

In conclusion, I keep my views and you keep yours k? I will place my loyalities by my underdeveloped and “niggah” nation while you place your loyalties by the fair, beautiful, and civilized West.

EDIT: Where do you live in Britain? It seems like an awesome place because it seems to be full of educated and not-so-ignorant people. I just might move there in the future, so I can escape this wretched country and not have my positive opinions of the West be obliterated forever.

#100

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51712]Normally, Lotusgirl I would dismiss the argument of why do you stay in the West, if you are so critical of it as a logical fallacy. Surely, one can be critical of the West and still remain in the West. But in the case of Neitzsche, his gripe does not actually appear to be with Western philosophy and culture i.e.,the conceptual part, but with Western people itself. He seems to find no redeeming value of Western people at all, and ironically the Indian people he is trumpeting, want to be like Western people, even look like them. So it is not a fallacy to ask Neitzsche what the heck is he doing living in the West for 11 years if he hates Western people so much and considers himself a constant victim of ignorance and chauvanism?

Another ironic thing is Neitzsche has faced so many bad experiences with Western people, when most Indians I know have not actually faced bad experiences with Western people and integrated very well into Western culture. On the other hand, he claims the common experiences foreingers have in India of being hassled by touts on the streets, Western women travellers having to cover up to avoid sexual advances, and having to bribe authorities at airports etc are not common.

I have seen a very different world to Neitzsche. This is either because it all subjective and we just happened to have had different experiences, or because Neitzsche is biassed towards seeing the worst in the West and the best in India. I would be inclined to thinking it is the latter, because I know my experiences are more common than Neitzsche’s. It sounds like Neitzsche has a bit of a chip on his shoulder.[/QUOTE]

Wow, you finally realized that? Besides, I came to realize that something was wrong with this society after being continually put down, scorned, and rejected. I constantly set aside these negative experiences in the hope that I would come across someone/something better. This has yet to be the case. I assure you the problem is as rampant as segregation was in the olden days. It is not as easy to see however, because the problem is more temperamental and physcological. Part of the blame lies within American culture, among which its staples are an excessive pride America, and a feeling of superiority.

Although I certainly hope I am experiencing a “chip on my shoulder,” I assure you that it isn’t the case for the majority of the West. That much is evident in the way the conservative and chauvinistic American political party called the “Republicans” or the “G.O.P” literally took over Congress last year.