Hindutva

Spirituality Religion
#101

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;51698]Nietzsche,

If you so hate the west and America in particular, do you plan on moving back to India?

And one final thought for you to ponder. When you surround yourself with negativity, that is all you receive. Its like with raising children, I found it better to use positive reinforcement with our children than negative/punishment. When you surround yourself with a positive environment and think in those terms, even the negative can be looked at as something positive. Much healthier then having a more “victim-like” mentality.[/QUOTE]

In fact, I do. Good riddance. I will use America to educate myself, in the way most Western nations have used the rest of the world, and go back and help India in whatever way I can and to get away from the madness here.

Perhaps I might also stop by Surya Deva’s place. I certainly feel that I need a opinion boost on the West.

#102

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;51757]Wow, you finally realized that? Besides, I came to realize that something was wrong with this society after being continually put down, scorned, and rejected. I constantly set aside these negative experiences in the hope that I would come across someone/something better. This has yet to be the case. I assure you the problem is as rampant as segregation was in the olden days. It is not as easy to see however, because the problem is more temperamental and physcological. Part of the blame lies within American culture, among which its staples are an excessive pride America, and a feeling of superiority.

Although I certainly hope I am experiencing a “chip on my shoulder,” I assure you that it isn’t the case for the majority of the West. That much is evident in the way the conservative and chauvinistic American political party called the “Republicans” or the “G.O.P” literally took over Congress last year.[/QUOTE]

Wait wait wait, no not the Western people! Rather its the ideology and the prejudices I hate.

Thanks for the links Surya. I will read them.

EDIT: By the way, your statistics are based on the Western world’s criterion. I would rather trust the relativist PPP’s statistics as they reflect Indian standards.

EDIT 2: I will be ready to face the facts when you can provide LEGITIMATE and CREDIBLE sources on corruption in Indian airports today, instead of blogs or anecdotes on forums.

#103

Neitzsche,

I think I agree with you we have to terminate this discussion, but mostly because you are simply not being reasonable anymore. You are not facing obvious facts. Such as the blatantly obvious corruption issues which I and my family had to face, and I showed you links where dozens of other people have had to face the same. Nor are you acknowleding the obvious spiritual movements in the West. On top of that you consider producing a large number of engineers and doctors a mark of spirituality, but ecological living where one tries to remain in harmony with nature(a Vedic attitude to boot) not spirituality.

Your language is highly emotional. You are simply refusing to be reasonable about this discussion and I don’t see this changing. Perhaps, it may change with age and experience. I do remember how patriotic I was when I was your age, but as I matured I realised how limiting those beliefs were.

I am a soul who has incarnated as a human, who just happens to be Indian born this life, but nonetheless born in the UK. My aim is to realise my spiritual nature and to spiritualize this world. This has long been what Hinduism is all about, but unfortunately, perhaps because of age or misplaced nationalistic ideologies, you are missing out on this.

Good luck in trying to get to see India see the light. But I think you will have as much luck as trying to play a flute before a cow.

#104

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51794]Neitzsche,

I think I agree with you we have to terminate this discussion, but mostly because you are simply not being reasonable anymore. You are not facing obvious facts. Such as the blatantly obvious corruption issues which I and my family had to face, and I showed you links where dozens of other people have had to face the same. Nor are you acknowleding the obvious spiritual movements in the West. On top of that you consider producing a large number of engineers and doctors a mark of spirituality, but ecological living where one tries to remain in harmony with nature(a Vedic attitude to boot) not spirituality.

Your language is highly emotional. You are simply refusing to be reasonable about this discussion and I don’t see this changing. Perhaps, it may change with age and experience. I do remember how patriotic I was when I was your age, but as I matured I realised how limiting those beliefs were.

I am a soul who has incarnated as a human, who just happens to be Indian born this life, but nonetheless born in the UK. My aim is to realise my spiritual nature and to spiritualize this world. This has long been what Hinduism is all about, but unfortunately, perhaps because of age or misplaced nationalistic ideologies, you are missing out on this.

Good luck in trying to get to see India see the light. But I think you will have as much luck as trying to play a flute before a cow.[/QUOTE]

Define “obvious fact.”

Now provide me links that show the same of all 1.1 Billion Indians.

No, I said that the fact India produces millions of doctors and engineers in evidence that its morals and ethics have not declined, despite what it professes to be spiritually.

It is not a Vedic attitude. It is an attitude characteristic of many cultural and religious groups throughout the world. In the case of the West, it is out of pragmatism, not spirituality. You clearly do not know your history. I suggest reading about post-WW2 environmental activism.

I was being intentionally cynical lol. Perhaps SD, perhaps…

I too could also say “you will have as much luck as trying to play a flute before a cow” at this point.

P.S: Check your PM’s SD! I need your help with something!

#105

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;51821]Define “obvious fact.”

Now provide me links that show the same of all 1.1 Billion Indians.

No, I said that the fact India produces millions of doctors and engineers in evidence that its morals and ethics have not declined, despite what it professes to be spiritually.

It is not a Vedic attitude. It is an attitude characteristic of many cultural and religious groups throughout the world. In the case of the West, it is out of pragmatism, not spirituality. You clearly do not know your history. I suggest reading about post-WW2 environmental activism.

I was being intentionally cynical lol. Perhaps SD, perhaps…

I too could also say “you will have as much luck as trying to play a flute before a cow” at this point.

P.S: Check your PM’s SD! I need your help with something![/QUOTE]

Need to correct typos:

“Despite what it professes to be in terms of its ‘wannabe-culture’.”

#106

I thought I would respond to some of the points you made in response to my points and also to show just how badly you exaggerate some things and thereby taint your objectivity.

On the other hand, ecological awareness here goes all the way back pre-WW2 times. It isn’t a product of increasing spirituality. It is the product of the activism of scientists and environmentalists who clearly saw the effects of industrialization on the environment. As such, they aren’t concerned about spirituality but rather on preserving the beauty of their nation. I don’t see anything but nationalism and pride. It is a natural, pragmatic, and understandable response and not the product of the Dharmic ideology flooding the West.

I think what you conveniantly forget that the approx 50 million(of whom 15-20 million practice Yoga) market did not just refer to environmentalism, but other practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

This is not the product of activism of scientists, but a growing awareness amongst people to moving towards a more natural and holistic lifestyle that is in harmony with nature and the world. Hence why it also includes organic and natural personal care products, socially responsible investing, alternative medicine and literature in mind-body-soul. This market is very closely affilated with the new age movement.

Why are you denying that there is a growing number of spiritual Westerners?
By the way you claimed there was a growing number of spiritual Indians - where? Do you have demographical figures like I cited?

The U.S has a crappy education system. In fact, their spot in the world has been FAST declining. I see news everyday where Americans are bemoaning the fate of their education system. Talk to any American and they will tell you that their education system sucks.

Yeah, sure the US education system is falling in standards, compared to other Western countries. Not compared to developing countries. Hence, why Indians go to the West, US, UK, Australia for education. India lacks a single world-classed university.

India should produce more doctors and engineers, because it has a population of 1.1 billlion people. However, I just did some research and it appears your claims are - surprise - exaggerated:

The US produces on average 20,000 doctors a year. India on average produces 27,000 doctors a year. Yet, the quality of all of these doctors is not actually up to par with Western standards:

Concerns over the deterioration in the quality of physician training have been front and center of late as a result of a proliferation of private medical colleges, not all of which produce the high-quality physicians for which India is known. Allegations have continually surfaced over the past decade that some private medical colleges have been taking bribes to admit less qualified students, while delivering substandard education. For example, in the state of Maharashtra, considered India’s most progressive, a recent inspection report indicated that 9 of 17 private medical colleges were severely understaffed and often lacked essential infrastructure, including teaching beds and clinical materials.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1785175/

If we work by average US graduates 20,000 doctors a year from a population of 307 million people. India graduates 27,000 from a population of 1.1 billion people. Literacy rate in US is 99%, 1% or 3.7 million people are illiterate. In India literacy rate is 68%(2007) 34% or 374 million people are illiterate(significantly more than the entire population of America) making it the country with the highest number of illiterate people in the world.

To compare, the literacy rate of China is 93.3%, Mexico 92.5%, Zimbabwe 91.2%, Brazil 90%. India comes at no 149 out of 180 countries.

How can you at all claim that India today is this great place of education when 374 million people cannot even read or write and 148 countries, including African countries have higher literacy. Do you realise how ridiculous you are looking? Anybody from a country which has 374 million illiterate people, 800 million poor people should not boast of greatness in weath and education lest they want to look like a fool.

What are you talking about? Everyone here is SICK of Chinese Kung Fu movies these days. No one wants to see “Karate Kid ‘n’” and Bruce Li movies for the millionth time. In fact, those kinds of movies generally flop unless they actually have a good PLOT, which most of them don’t. Besides, part of the reason such Asian movies are doing relatively OK here, despite their low quality, is because of the ubiquitous Western interest in Asian culture.

Really? Then why is there a market for them then and appreciation for them amongst world critics? Here are the gross of top 5 subtitled and dubbed Chinese movies in the US:

  1. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon: $128,067,808
  2. Hero: $53,583,486
  3. Kung Fu hustle: $17,104,669
  4. House of flying daggers: $11,041,228
  5. Curse of the golden flower: $6,565,495

In terms of critical acclaim:

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon: Won 4 Oscars, 4 BAFTAS and 2 Golden globes, nominated for 6 Oscars, 10 BAFTAS, 1 Golden Globe

Hero: Oscar, BAFTA and Golden globe nomination. Won best director by national society of film critics USA.

House of flying daggers: nine BAFTA nominations plus a Golden Globe nomination for Best Foreign film

Curse of the Golden Flower: Oscar Nomination for Best cosume design
Kung fu hustle: BAFTA and Golden Globe nomination

Critically acclaimed Chinese movies: Farewell My Concubine, 2046, Suzhou River, The Road Home and House of Flying Dagg

The majority audience for Chinese movies in the US are Caucasians

Top 5 subtitled and dubbed Indian movies in the US:

1 3 Idiots:$ 6,540,000
2 My Name Is Khan $4,020,000
3.Om Shanti Om $3,600,000
4. Jodhaa Akbar $3,450,000
5.Kabhi Alvida Naa Kehna $3,290,000

In terms of critical acclaim:

Lagaan: Nominated for an Oscar
Rang De Basanti: Nominated for a BAFTA
Devdas: Nominated for a BAFTA

The vast majority audience for Indian movies in the US are Indians
According to the critical community in the US, Indian movies are obviously not considered high quality, but Chinese movies are. Chinese movies are more respected and appreciated and have a significant market. The least most succesfull Chinese movie is more succesfull than the most successful Indian movie.

Again how can you deny such a blatant fact? Chinese cinema is globally appreciated and respected, and ironically the most succesful Chinese films have all been the unique Wuxia genre.

Whose fault is it that Indians do not represent their own culture? Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedanta-Samkhya? Indians themselves.

As for why there aren’t Indian-culture like hits here, the answer lies within the way Indians know they are portrayed and scorned in the West. Whereas the Japanese and Chinese cultures and traditions are seen as “cool” and exotic, India’s culture just seems silly. I mean, comon, many gods, drinking from a polluted river, worshipping stones, no martial arts (seriously, what is a skinny half naked man going around preaching non-violence going to do against Jet Li or Jackie Chan?), so much poverty, and so forth. Many Indians are ashamed of their heritage, and so was I at one point. The sad thing is that this is not without reason, considering all the misinformation and lies on that abound throughout the West about India. It is part of the reason why I think India deserves more help than the West (which is DOING all this cultural subversion).

Again, whose fault is it that Indians do not get better representation in the world? Rather than sit there and rant like a madman at the negative streotypes that circulate in the world against India and vituperating against every Westerner who believes in those stereotypes, do something about it by spreading the right information.

Why are you so glum about India’s prospects? It is only about 2 decades into its economic high-times, a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things. Besides, it sure as hell won’t come if all Indians are depressed about their true heritage, culture, and nation (like you) and if SOMEONE doesn’t make the effort.

Actually, Neitzsche it is very ironic that you should say this. You are the one trumpeting India’s so-called rising success based on Western capitalism and the capitalist work ethic(producing armes of doctors and engineers) You are the one trumpeting the elite Westernized middle class. In short you are the one that is not accepting your own heritage and culture.

I am the one that am saying that India needs to return to its Vedic roots. It needs to restore all its traditional systems and bring them up to date with modern technology.

Replace the capitalist and social system with the varnashrama dharma system.
Replace the secularism with pure Vedic Hinduism
Replace the medicine system with Ayurveda
Replace the education system with gurukula system
Replace the city planning system with Vaastu system
Replace gyms with Yoga studios
Replace English with Sanskrit
Replace popular music with Sargam
Revive the study of Vedic philosophy and Vedic sciences and once again make it compulsory to study Sanskrit grammar, Darsanas, epics.

You are actually arguing in favour of capitalism and Westernism. In fact, you are part of reason I am so glum about India’s propects, because you represent a voice of Indians who are happy with continuing capitalism and follow a similar growth pattern the West has, while pretending that you will not face the same economic meltdown the West is facing today.
Indirectly, you are the one campaigning for Westernization of India. Hence why you poo-poo my call to bring India back to its Vedic roots as idealist.

So pray/tell who really is the one glum about their own culture and heritage?
What is hilarious here is that you are trumpeting a Westernized elite middle class in India who crave Western lifestyle and culture - while condemning the West.

Let us summarize the main points made in this post all of which are facts:

  • There is a rising class of spiritual Americans who are affluent, highly educated and affluent estimated to be approx 50 million people who are striving for holistic and mind-body-spirit living. Around 15-20 million of them practice Yoga.

  • US education system is falling in its global ranking against other developed countries, not developed countries. India only produces 7000 more doctors than US does despite having a population of 1.1 billion people. A sizable portion of these doctors are of inferior quality, corrupt and get substandard education. India has the highest number of illiterate people in the world at 374million people and is ranked 149 out of 180 countries, behind many African countries.

  • Chinese movies, subtitled and dubbed enjoy wide appreciation in the world and have enjoyed significant boxoffice success, critical acclaim and recognised by the highest awarding bodies. The least grossing Chinese film is higher than the highesr grossing Indian film and have a majority Caucasian audience, as opposed to the vast majority Indian audience for Indian films.

  • I am supporting the return of India to its Vedic roots, you are the one
    trumpeting Western capitalism and Western education.

#107

On the latter point, even though I want India to return to its Vedic roots. I know that Indian people like you are not ready for it, you have only just got the taste for wealth and capitalism is great to produce temporary wealth and great living standards. If India is still around by 2040, then by 2040 India will be materially identical to America(but I think India will be taken out by China before that happens) But I know 50 million people in the US are ready for it and in fact yearning for it. It is no coincidence that Indian gurus have been flocking to the West since the last century.

A guru does not refuse to impart Vedic knowledge to somebody just because they are not Indian. None of our Risis have every done so. The only requirement is ears that want to hear and eyes that want to see. Ready souls. Western souls are ready and they will receive.

#108

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51723]By the way, regarding the commmon corruption problems at Indian airports:

http://hindustan.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88
http://grommit.com/blogs/poorna/?p=38

In the above links various people have experienced high levels of corruption, demands for bribes and hassles at the following international airports: Indira Ghandi International(New Delhi), Mumbai international, and Bangalore international.

Are you ready to face the facts?[/QUOTE]

I have chosen take premature retirement and will retire next week. Having said that, My work required me to travel extensively within India. I used to travel at least four times a month for the last ten years and have been thorough all the airports you name very frequently. I have also had several overseas trips and again used these airports in those trips. Not Once I will repeat NOT ONCE have I met with anything but unfailing courtesy and the pleasant expereinces and certainly never any corruption- even when on certain trips my baggage carried electronic and other goods in excess of the permited limits.

#109

I have chosen take premature retirement and will retire next week. Having said that, My work required me to travel extensively within India. I used to travel at least four times a month for the last ten years and have been thorough all the airports you name very frequently. I have also had several overseas trips and again used these airports in those trips. Not Once I will repeat NOT ONCE have I met with anything but unfailing courtesy and the pleasant expereinces and certainly never any corruption- even when on certain trips my baggage carried electronic and other goods in excess of the permited limits.

You see another person’s experiences cannot negate a common experience that many people have. I have talked to many people who have travelled to India, even recently a caucasian friend of mine who actually said he had no problems with Indian airport customs, but his Indians friends told him they were bastards with them.

I really do not appreciate how both N and you are denying this rather common experience. Everybody knows India is a very corrupt country - bribes are demanded in every section of society.

It makes you look little to deny obvious facts. Nobody ever makes any progress without accepting facts. If you want the demon of corruption to be exorcised from India, you need to first accept it exists. Denying corruption makes you just as corrupt as the corruption of India.

#110

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51857]I thought I would respond to some of the points you made in response to my points and also to show just how badly you exaggerate some things and thereby taint your objectivity.

I think what you conveniantly forget that the approx 50 million(of whom 15-20 million practice Yoga) market did not just refer to environmentalism, but other practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

This is not the product of activism of scientists, but a growing awareness amongst people to moving towards a more natural and holistic lifestyle that is in harmony with nature and the world. Hence why it also includes organic and natural personal care products, socially responsible investing, alternative medicine and literature in mind-body-soul. This market is very closely affilated with the new age movement.

Why are you denying that there is a growing number of spiritual Westerners?
By the way you claimed there was a growing number of spiritual Indians - where? Do you have demographical figures like I cited?

Yeah, sure the US education system is falling in standards, compared to other Western countries. Not compared to developing countries. Hence, why Indians go to the West, US, UK, Australia for education. India lacks a single world-classed university.

India should produce more doctors and engineers, because it has a population of 1.1 billlion people. However, I just did some research and it appears your claims are - surprise - exaggerated:

The US produces on average 20,000 doctors a year. India on average produces 27,000 doctors a year. Yet, the quality of all of these doctors is not actually up to par with Western standards:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1785175/

If we work by average US graduates 20,000 doctors a year from a population of 307 million people. India graduates 27,000 from a population of 1.1 billion people. Literacy rate in US is 99%, 1% or 3.7 million people are illiterate. In India literacy rate is 68%(2007) 34% or 374 million people are illiterate(significantly more than the entire population of America) making it the country with the highest number of illiterate people in the world.

To compare, the literacy rate of China is 93.3%, Mexico 92.5%, Zimbabwe 91.2%, Brazil 90%. India comes at no 149 out of 180 countries.

How can you at all claim that India today is this great place of education when 374 million people cannot even read or write and 148 countries, including African countries have higher literacy. Do you realise how ridiculous you are looking? Anybody from a country which has 374 million illiterate people, 800 million poor people should not boast of greatness in weath and education lest they want to look like a fool.

Really? Then why is there a market for them then and appreciation for them amongst world critics? Here are the gross of top 5 subtitled and dubbed Chinese movies in the US:

  1. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon: $128,067,808
  2. Hero: $53,583,486
  3. Kung Fu hustle: $17,104,669
  4. House of flying daggers: $11,041,228
  5. Curse of the golden flower: $6,565,495

In terms of critical acclaim:

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon: Won 4 Oscars, 4 BAFTAS and 2 Golden globes, nominated for 6 Oscars, 10 BAFTAS, 1 Golden Globe

Hero: Oscar, BAFTA and Golden globe nomination. Won best director by national society of film critics USA.

House of flying daggers: nine BAFTA nominations plus a Golden Globe nomination for Best Foreign film

Curse of the Golden Flower: Oscar Nomination for Best cosume design
Kung fu hustle: BAFTA and Golden Globe nomination

Critically acclaimed Chinese movies: Farewell My Concubine, 2046, Suzhou River, The Road Home and House of Flying Dagg

The majority audience for Chinese movies in the US are Caucasians

Top 5 subtitled and dubbed Indian movies in the US:

1 3 Idiots:$ 6,540,000
2 My Name Is Khan $4,020,000
3.Om Shanti Om $3,600,000
4. Jodhaa Akbar $3,450,000
5.Kabhi Alvida Naa Kehna $3,290,000

In terms of critical acclaim:

Lagaan: Nominated for an Oscar
Rang De Basanti: Nominated for a BAFTA
Devdas: Nominated for a BAFTA

The vast majority audience for Indian movies in the US are Indians
According to the critical community in the US, Indian movies are obviously not considered high quality, but Chinese movies are. Chinese movies are more respected and appreciated and have a significant market. The least most succesfull Chinese movie is more succesfull than the most successful Indian movie.

Again how can you deny such a blatant fact? Chinese cinema is globally appreciated and respected, and ironically the most succesful Chinese films have all been the unique Wuxia genre.

Whose fault is it that Indians do not represent their own culture? Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedanta-Samkhya? Indians themselves.

Again, whose fault is it that Indians do not get better representation in the world? Rather than sit there and rant like a madman at the negative streotypes that circulate in the world against India and vituperating against every Westerner who believes in those stereotypes, do something about it by spreading the right information.

Actually, Neitzsche it is very ironic that you should say this. You are the one trumpeting India’s so-called rising success based on Western capitalism and the capitalist work ethic(producing armes of doctors and engineers) You are the one trumpeting the elite Westernized middle class. In short you are the one that is not accepting your own heritage and culture.

I am the one that am saying that India needs to return to its Vedic roots. It needs to restore all its traditional systems and bring them up to date with modern technology.

Replace the capitalist and social system with the varnashrama dharma system.
Replace the secularism with pure Vedic Hinduism
Replace the medicine system with Ayurveda
Replace the education system with gurukula system
Replace the city planning system with Vaastu system
Replace gyms with Yoga studios
Replace English with Sanskrit
Replace popular music with Sargam
Revive the study of Vedic philosophy and Vedic sciences and once again make it compulsory to study Sanskrit grammar, Darsanas, epics.

You are actually arguing in favour of capitalism and Westernism. In fact, you are part of reason I am so glum about India’s propects, because you represent a voice of Indians who are happy with continuing capitalism and follow a similar growth pattern the West has, while pretending that you will not face the same economic meltdown the West is facing today.
Indirectly, you are the one campaigning for Westernization of India. Hence why you poo-poo my call to bring India back to its Vedic roots as idealist.

So pray/tell who really is the one glum about their own culture and heritage?
What is hilarious here is that you are trumpeting a Westernized elite middle class in India who crave Western lifestyle and culture - while condemning the West.

Let us summarize the main points made in this post all of which are facts:

  • There is a rising class of spiritual Americans who are affluent, highly educated and affluent estimated to be approx 50 million people who are striving for holistic and mind-body-spirit living. Around 15-20 million of them practice Yoga.

  • US education system is falling in its global ranking against other developed countries, not developed countries. India only produces 7000 more doctors than US does despite having a population of 1.1 billion people. A sizable portion of these doctors are of inferior quality, corrupt and get substandard education. India has the highest number of illiterate people in the world at 374million people and is ranked 149 out of 180 countries, behind many African countries.

  • Chinese movies, subtitled and dubbed enjoy wide appreciation in the world and have enjoyed significant boxoffice success, critical acclaim and recognised by the highest awarding bodies. The least grossing Chinese film is higher than the highesr grossing Indian film and have a majority Caucasian audience, as opposed to the vast majority Indian audience for Indian films.

  • I am supporting the return of India to its Vedic roots, you are the one
    trumpeting Western capitalism and Western education.[/QUOTE]

Once again, these developments are mostly not the product of an increasing spiritual lifestyle, as reflected in so-called “Vedic” roots and New-Ager movements (though admittedly, there are some influences from herbal medicine and Ayurveda and such), but the activism of environmental reformers (ever since post-WW2 era) and health reformers (from the fattest nation on Earth).

I am not denying that there are spiritual Westerners. I am denying that they are continuing to grow and that they will eventually influence the West to change itself. The West will NOT change itself by any means until the validity of our ways can be shown. So far, considering the state of India, this has yet to be the case.

Point taken. I already said that India’s education was relatively sub-par. I also said that this education system discussion was irrelevant because my point was that Indians, compared to Americans, are the ones making the most of what they have. Most Americans I come across are lazy hedonists who focus on being cool rather than getting an education.

27k per 1.1 BILLION people?!?! LAWL! This is the funniest statistic I have ever heard. Forgive me but I too need to do a bit of research myself. In the meantime, can you please cite more REPUTABLE sources and statistics?

What is your point with the literacy rates? Why do you keep pointing out these statistics in a matter not closely interrelated to the way a place appeals to your heart? Besides, I have already long known this.

This is a simple breakdown:

In America, I have known nothing but materialism, scorn, bigotry, racism, supremacy, ignorance, and so forth. This is quite shocking for a place as developed and prosperous as it is. The more I live here, the more I feel alienated.

In India, I have met only kind and hard-working people. Sure there is poverty. Sure there is illiteracy. Sure there is a tendency to superficially develop along lines paralleling the West. But this is where I am at peace and this is where my heart lies.

That wasn’t the point SD. My point was that despite all these lack of opportunities and chances, Indian students are generally making the best of what they have and outperforming students in other parts of the world, in India and within other countries.

Additionally, have you ever heard of a world class Brazilian, Mexican, and Zimbabwean student? Reading and writing is one thing. Knowing what to do with them is another.

LOL!? Any movie that grosses so low is considered a “tank” or a “flop” ANYWHERE. Those numbers are PATHETIC.

I actually remember watching the movie “Crouching Tiger and Hidden Dragon.” Simply put, we walked out within 20 minutes because:

1). It was in Chinese and we didn’t want to read subtitles the entire time.
2). The movie sucked.
3). The audience was full of mostly Chinese people, making it awkward for a family of Indians to watch the movie in a theater full of Chinese families.

The awards are nice and all. You do realize that Indians movies don’t have as much of an appeal primarily because of the misconceptions and its lack of “theme versatility” and its “musical-like” nature? And you do know I HATE Bollywood right? :smiley: Any you do realize that these martial arts movies trump Indian movies any day because watching Martial arts is considered cooler than watching Indian girls dance?

No, Chinese Kung-Fu movies are generally not respected. They suffer from the same problems as Bollywood movies (lack of variety). I don’t care how much you like to cite award nominations from a biased committee of movie-choosing members. Its the gross that matters and is a true reflection of popularity among the masses. Once again, those numbers are HORRIBLE. Comon, 128 M? The actors must have been PISSED! Any person on these forums can tell you that!

Now look here for statistics of highest grossing films ever, by series, year, and etc:

Are you serious? How do you expect any Indian to make any successful movie on dealing with Yoga, Ayurveda, and etc? And what are you talking about? Have you looked at all the movements worldwide regarding Hinduism? Osho, ISKCON/Hare Krishna, Swami Vivekananda, [insert name of any Indian who introduced form of Yoga], and etc?

Which is what is currently happening in the U.S. If I recall correctly, there are movements all across the U.S that have sprouted to combat the stereotypes and misinformation on India and Hinduism in the media and academia. I think you have already seen the one about “Take back Yoga.” There was also a huge court case in which Indians fought to edit the history textbooks in California sporting derogatory and false information on Hinduism and India. It is unfortunate that the Dalit community and a group of influential Eurocentric historians were successful in convincing the court that the AIT did not need to be removed (despite testimony from a biologist who examined all the genetic evidence and stated that there was no AIT).

Besides, it is ridiculous of you to expect much from 1st generation Indian immigrants into the U.S. The 1st generation of any given immigrant group is too busy trying to settle down and secure a livelihood for their children. It is the second generation, and on, from which such changes come, and we are still in school for heaven’s sake. Give us some time SD. I still have to complete high school. :frowning:

And that is indeed what I do. Every time someone asks me about the caste system or Hinduism and etc, I do my best to educate them about the truth and the misinformation in Western media. During my sophomore year (when I was taking AP World History), I managed to raise considerable awareness about the falsehood of the AIT among the history staff (though one of them did say to me that she doesn’t care about the AIT and just ‘teaches it’) and the students alike. It is only when people are willfully ignorant that I do what you and I normally do on these forums. :smiley:

The truth is SD, I also agree that India needs to return to its Vedic roots. But I also believe that it won’t be possible. Call me pessimistic or a capitalism supporter, but this is truly the case. The world has seen the wonders of capitalism and is unwilling to make any serious changes. In fact, anyone who does so has to immediately risk losing their spot in the world echelon, particularly the U.S and other developed countries. The world, at this stage, has more to lose than gain by relinquishing capitalism.

I agree with these plans. I wish you the best of luck in trying to implement them in this era.

One more thing; I need your help with Philosophy. What book or philosopher should I start with? How should I advance?

#111

Namaste N,

I am glad you now accept that there are spiritual Westerners. It is difficult to estimate the size of this group, because they are not an organized group. The best measures have been done by sociologists by examining consumerist practices and have found they number in terms of 50 million. Now, whether they are growing in number, is another statistic, but going by the growth in the Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability market, including the mind-body-spirit and Yoga market, there is good reason to believe this market is growing.

Spirituality has gone mainstream in America. For instance, on mass-media programs like Oprah winfery with a massive mainstream viewing audience, new-age guru Ekhart Tolle has found a huge audience and mass acceptance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk36JT77Tmc

There have been mainstream spiritual films appearing in American media: The Celestine Prophecies, The Secret, What the bleep do we know, Eat Pray Love, The Peaceful warrior, What Dreams May come. Spiritual symbolism is also starting to appear in other mainstream films, albeit in fictionalized form(Narnia, Harry potter, lord of the rings, Sorcerers apprentice, 2012)

Major Hollywood celebrities are now starting to endorse spirituality openly: Julia Roberts, Jim Carry, Oprah

Why is this not happening in India? In India you see an a copy of Western materialism, except spirituality of the West. Again, because India is not ready for spirituality, but the West is. The universe works on the basis of supply and demand, if there is a demand for something there will be a supply. In India there is demand for wealth, so there is a supply of wealth. In the West there is a demand for spirituality, so there is a supply of spirituality.

I am really surprised you cannot comprehend this very simple notion. India is not ready for spirituality. You are making it very clear yourself by saying India is not ready for returning to its Vedic roots - you are saying pretty much what I am saying. India is not ready for spirituality. The West is several decades ahead of India in its capitalistic development, and now a growing, sizable and influencial number of Westerners are starting to see the limitations of capitalism and are demanding a more holistic and ethical way of life.

I think either because of your age or you being sheltered from the Western world you live in you have not been in touch with the changes taking place in Western society. You are familiar with the economic changes going in India, but not the spiritual changes going on in the West. Fortunately, I am familiar with both, and know the merits and demerits of both.

#112

I am no longer going to debate with you on Indian education and living standards. Like I said before for anybody to debate about greatness in education and wealth of a country where 800 million or 70% live in extreme poverty, 374 million or 32% are illiterate and a country which ranks below the most poorest African countries in terms of literacy ranking 149 out of 180 countries is an out and out fool.

You are looking like a fool N, seriously. Before you even dare to boast about India’s wealth and education first get to the average global standards. Then from there get to the Western standards. You are talking about a few more decades in development.

India is a developing country. If you dispute this fact you are an idiot. Nobody boasts of the wealth and education of a developing country.

#113

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51907]You see another person’s experiences cannot negate a common experience that many people have. I have talked to many people who have travelled to India, even recently a caucasian friend of mine who actually said he had no problems with Indian airport customs, but his Indians friends told him they were bastards with them.

I really do not appreciate how both N and you are denying this rather common experience. Everybody knows India is a very corrupt country - bribes are demanded in every section of society.

It makes you look little to deny obvious facts. Nobody ever makes any progress without accepting facts. If you want the demon of corruption to be exorcised from India, you need to first accept it exists. Denying corruption makes you just as corrupt as the corruption of India.[/QUOTE]

Of course we don’t deny corruption exists! We are denying the airport part of it. I have never experienced such a thing while in India and neither have my family nor many of my friends.

Trust me, if I was the PM of India, I would jail almost every so-called “secularist” politician in India.

#114

We are denying the airport part of it. I have

Then you are accusing me and my family, 81% NRI’s who were surveyed in one the links I gave and the experiences of others I linked who have experienced horrible corruption at Indian airports of lying.

The irony is you admit there is corruption in India, but deny there is corruption at airports? N you are becoming a joker :stuck_out_tongue:

#115

India continues to be one of the most corrupt nations in the world with many of its public institutions given to rampant misdeeds. Corruption is India’s bane and threatens to derail its rapidly growing economy.

The country ranks a dismal 84th in a list of 180 countries, according to Transparency International’s 2009 Corruption Perceptions Index, a measure of domestic and public sector corruption.

The corruption watchdog says that many African, East European and Latin American nations fare much better than India

#116

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51919]I am no longer going to debate with you on Indian education and living standards. Like I said before for anybody to debate about greatness in education and wealth of a country where 800 million or 70% live in extreme poverty, 374 million or 32% are illiterate and a country which ranks below the most poorest African countries in terms of literacy ranking 149 out of 180 countries is an out and out fool.

You are looking like a fool N, seriously. Before you even dare to boast about India’s wealth and education first get to the average global standards. Then from there get to the Western standards. You are talking about a few more decades in development.

India is a developing country. If you dispute this fact you are an idiot. Nobody boasts of the wealth and education of a developing country.[/QUOTE]

It isn’t a debate on materialistic aspects, but rather the temperamental and spiritual qualities of India. I don’t deny most of the statistics you have quoted, but rather your interpretation of them as India having no hope for reform.

When did I debate the general wealth and education of India? I was debating the spiritual and temperamental aspects of India, not these superficial aspects.

The whole problem is that you are misinterpreting what I am saying. If this was actually a debate on India’s wealth and education, I would, hands-down, agree with you.

I have seen the worst of India’s “wealth” and education. I have seen people dying on the streets, begging for food and water. I remember the shitty education I received in India. One of our vocab “tests” was literally “spell ‘dog’ in Hindi. Turn in when you are done.” Many of our teachers weren’t even there for half the year. I remember having to learn so many different things at different times, without any rhyme or reason, that I ended up sleeping in class (and getting beatings :cry:).

No need for such language, Surya Deva, especially when the entirety of the forum populace considers you to be much the same and especially when you are misinterpreting my words as a statement of how India is materially better.

#117

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51926]Then you are accusing me and my family, 81% NRI’s who were surveyed in one the links I gave and the experiences of others I linked who have experienced horrible corruption at Indian airports of lying.

The irony is you admit there is corruption in India, but deny there is corruption at airports? N you are becoming a joker :p[/quote]

Where in India do you visit? This might clear up any misunderstandings.

#118

I did not intend this thread to become an anti-India thread. But unfortunately when Indian nationalistic members make repeated silly exaggerations, sling mud at other countries when worse problems exist in their own, and deny obvious truths about India, I cannot but help myself put the record straight :smiley:

Just stick to the facts and you won’t attract anti-India material.

#119

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51928]India continues to be one of the most corrupt nations in the world with many of its public institutions given to rampant misdeeds. Corruption is India’s bane and threatens to derail its rapidly growing economy.

The country ranks a dismal 84th in a list of 180 countries, according to Transparency International’s 2009 Corruption Perceptions Index, a measure of domestic and public sector corruption.

The corruption watchdog says that many African, East European and Latin American nations fare much better than India

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/nov/18/slide-show-1-india-amongst-worlds-most-corrupt-nations.htm[/QUOTE]

In fact, I remember my dad forwarding a message to me from one of his friends dealing with the corruption in India. Let me see if I can find it.

Ah, here you go.

#120

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51931]I did not intend this thread to become an anti-India thread. But unfortunately when Indian nationalistic members make repeated silly exaggerations, sling mud at other countries when worse problems exist in their own, and deny obvious truths about India, I cannot but help myself put the record straight :smiley:

Just stick to the facts and you won’t attract anti-India material.[/QUOTE]

Yes, worse infrastructural problems exist in India.

Worse temperamental problems exist in the West.

There are things which are backwards about the West and India.

The problem arises when those are at the top of the world do nothing but denounce and scorn those below them, instead of helping them. With great power comes great responsibility, not chauvinism, racism, and arrogance. I consider this to be a greater evil, more so than anything else.