[QUOTE=thomas;51258]He is “hated” because he is a crappy president. Skin color has nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE]
He is simply a president in the wrong place at the wrong time. Let’s face it, McCain couldn’t have done a better job in the first place himself. The times are too unique for that. Look at the history of the U.S; similar fiscal crises and every president who was in the midst of it is forgotten or hated.
I can almost guarantee you that McCain would have been tolerated longer than Obama is now.
I was not thrilled with McCain, but he would have been better. I would rather have had Mit Romney. But McCain would not have increased spending as Obama did.
Obama has been a big spender and has enlarged the size of government.
Anyway, for the vast majority of those who dislike Obama as a president, it has nothing to do with skin color. I have the same dislike for him for the same reasons I disliked Jimmy Carter, a white man. I would be extremely happy with a Republican conservative black man or woman, or Hindu conservative Republican man or woman.
[QUOTE=thomas;51261]I was not thrilled with McCain, but he would have been better. I would rather have had Mit Romney. But McCain would not have increased spending as Obama did.
Obama has been a big spender and has enlarged the size of government.
Anyway, for the vast majority of those who dislike Obama as a president, it has nothing to do with skin color. I have the same dislike for him for the same reasons I disliked Jimmy Carter, a white man. I would be extremely happy with a Republican conservative black man or woman, or Hindu conservative Republican man or woman.[/QUOTE]
I think what we have established in this thread that both India and America have problems when it comes to things like discrimination and ignorance. We have also established that India is a developing country and its growth is similar to America’s several decades ago. It is a rising country, which means that most people still lack the basic living standards that we here in the West enjoy, but this situation will change in a few decades as the Indian economy grows.
My point is that you are wasting your time and energy by investing them in a developing country rather than a developed country. You complain so much about America, but it is easy for any objective person to see America is manifold times in a better state than India is in all areas: living standards, civil and human rights, infrastructure, welfare, social development. The West in general are high in these areas.
India is not ready for spiritualiy. America is. Again, you seem to be completely unaware of the growing spirituality in America and the West in general. I don’t know where to begin to put you in touch with this. I am very much in touch with the spirtual community in the West so I know the big changes that are happening in the West.
As much as I love and admire India, I am not limited to India. The world is my wider home and humanity is my wider family. I have the interests of humanity and the world in my mind, you have the interests of India in your mind. I am a humanist, you are a nationalist.
I think what we have established in this thread that both India and America have problems when it comes to things like discrimination and ignorance. We have also established that India is a developing country and its growth is similar to America’s several decades ago. It is a rising country, which means that most people still lack the basic living standards that we here in the West enjoy, but this situation will change in a few decades as the Indian economy grows.
My point is that you are wasting your time and energy by investing them in a developing country rather than a developed country. You complain so much about America, but it is easy for any objective person to see America is manifold times in a better state than India is in all areas: living standards, civil and human rights, infrastructure, welfare, social development. The West in general are high in these areas.
India is not ready for spiritualiy. America is. Again, you seem to be completely unaware of the growing spirituality in America and the West in general. I don’t know where to begin to put you in touch with this. I am very much in touch with the spirtual community in the West so I know the big changes that are happening in the West.
As much as I love and admire India, I am not limited to India. The world is my wider home and humanity is my wider family. I have the interests of humanity and the world in my mind, you have the interests of India in your mind. I am a humanist, you are a nationalist.[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
Of course, I do not deny this. They are better of in all material/infrastructural aspects.
That’s fine. People thought much the same of America back in the good ol’ days. The thing is, change will NEVER come in India if we fortunate and educated Indians do not use our education/skills to help our own people. Change will never come if we continually side with those who seek to undermine us. Change will never come if you just give up the fight against oppression and destitution so easily. You are seriously starting to remind me of the moderate white majority of America during the Civil Rights movement who deplored the actions of the supremacists and yet made no effort to change it. As always, it is from the oppressed from which a leader and the desire to change comes. It wasn’t the supposedly benevolent and well-off white people; it was the black Martin Luther King Jr.
I am sorry but I simply have to disagree with this fatalistic notion. As MLK said, time is neutral. Time alone does not cure all things. The people have to take the initiative to write their own destinies. Wallowing in your despair, suffering, and pessimism does nothing. In a similar manner, simply saying that India isn’t receptive enough for spirituality based off of some social theory and from negative experiences is simply false.
No, I believe is it you who is wasting your time by choosing to be on the waning side. The West, like the waning moon, is declining. The East, like the waxing moon, is rising. It is hard to see it now, but it will happen. At the end of the day, New Ager ideals won’t save the day; the people here are still too immersed in their Western esoteric traditions and dogma. You misunderstand the Western fabric of ideology here. They consume whatever pleases them but in the end, it all makes no impression upon them. At the end of the day, it is their rich and affluent society versus the poor and ignorant rest of the world. At the end of the day, it is their “right” way versus the rest of the world who is emulating their ways.
Have you ever lived in America? Do you know what is happening here? Are you aware of the societal changes taking place? Britain is not America. Far from it actually. Besides, I know of the Osho/ISKCON movement stuff here. They are not what they once were SD. They have gained much disrepute due to scandals and etc and have declined in popularity. There is an ISKCON temple my family visits all the time. I only see 1 Asian and 1 white devotee there, the same ones I have seen for 4 years. The main devotees are the Hindu Indians who literally dance and sing in the middle of the room, praising Krishna and Radha. Life in America goes as it always has these days. The only thing Americans care about now is themselves, their economy, their international power, and so forth.
I wish this was the case SD. I wish it was the time for Hinduism to go global. However, its not. America is still ridiculously bound by its Christian and Western dogma. Bible-thumpers abound everywhere. Even the most “progressive” Christians are still tied to their religious dogma. You don’t have to look further than Thomas to see that.
The truth is that no real progress will be made until its values and ideals are shown to be as ignorant and destructive as everyone else makes it out to be. They are convinced their way works, works the best in fact. They are convinced that they have the “right” ideas and the best ideas. Abrahamic and Dharmic ideals are opposed to one another. You cannot deny that. The latter set of ideals have weakened, but only slightly. The time is not ripe yet SD. More preliminary work must be done to show the validity of our ways. Otherwise, you will just be seen as nothing more than a fanciful pundit whose ways will not supersede the established order but rather be assimilated into it, without making any serious general changes.
I am simply a realist who is bound to my country. I see no need to help those who need no help and in fact, largely have no interest in reforming themselves.
No, I believe is it you who is wasting your time by choosing to be on the waning side. The West, like the waning moon, is declining. The East, like the waxing moon, is rising. It is hard to see it now, but it will happen. At the end of the day, New Ager ideals won’t save the day; the people here are still too immersed in their Western esoteric traditions and dogma. You misunderstand the Western fabric of ideology here. They consume whatever pleases them but in the end, it all makes no impression upon them. At the end of the day, it is their rich and affluent society versus the poor and ignorant rest of the world. At the end of the day, it is their “right” way versus the rest of the world who is emulating their ways.
The West is not really waning, but it has progressed. Before the West was an industrial economy and today it is a knowledge economy based on service industries like information technology, multimedia and education. Today, most of its industrial needs are outsourced to the East. The East are industralizing. The West has already surpassed that stage; the East is clearly behind.
The East is only starting to enjoy the same kind of lifestyle we in the West have enjoyed for decades. The East have a taste for it and are living it up. On the other hand, we are in the West are developing a distaste for it and want something more meaningful. Now, again as you are not in touch with the spiritual community in the West, you are not aware of the massive changes that are taking place in the landscape of the West.
India, China etc are treading a path the West has already treaded. They are backwards compared to the West. They are not as developed, and hence why they are recognised as developing countries.
The West is the bringer of the future of this planet man. India is no longer the centre of the world. You are too attached to India. Let go.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51594]
India, China etc are treading a path the West has already treaded. They are backwards compared to the West. They are not as developed, and hence why they are recognised as developing countries.
The West is the bringer of the future of this planet man. India is no longer the centre of the world.[/QUOTE]
I doubt it. The west has only brought materialism and a heavily “me” oriented culture. Most of the undesirable changes which we see in India today are a result of mindless aping of the west, especially by the younger generation of Indians. Unfortunately many of my generation have lost touch with the values of their parents and have failed to impart it to thier children. This is perhaps the reason and of course the need for “success” -the parameters for success are defined by more money, bigger houses, bigger cars and so on… And more psychiatrists…
Why talk about the centre of the world ? Let us first centre ourselves …
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51594]The West is not really waning, but it has progressed. Before the West was an industrial economy and today it is a knowledge economy based on service industries like information technology, multimedia and education. Today, most of its industrial needs are outsourced to the East. The East are industralizing. The West has already surpassed that stage; the East is clearly behind.
The East is only starting to enjoy the same kind of lifestyle we in the West have enjoyed for decades. The East have a taste for it and are living it up. On the other hand, we are in the West are developing a distaste for it and want something more meaningful. Now, again as you are not in touch with the spiritual community in the West, you are not aware of the massive changes that are taking place in the landscape of the West.
India, China etc are treading a path the West has already treaded. They are backwards compared to the West. They are not as developed, and hence why they are recognised as developing countries.
The West is the bringer of the future of this planet man. India is no longer the centre of the world. You are too attached to India. Let go.[/QUOTE]
SURYA DEVA! These forums were incredibly boring without you! Where were you?
In depends on the area in question. Materially = West. Spiritually = East. West = Mockery of that Spirituality.
No, there is no widespread New Ager movement here. My parents have never mentioned such a thing (besides the ISKCON, Osho stuff) and they have lived here for 30 years. I have lived all over the U.S and have never seen such a thing. I have seen all the statistics of the U.S and nowhere do I see that such a change has penetrated this depressing society.
The truth is that America, in many ways, is not like the rest of the West (it rhymes :D). America is still deeply bound to its Christian roots to which it identifies itself strongly. Sure, Christianity is dying; however, people are still clinging embarrassingly onto Christian biases and Western chauvinism. Look at Indra Deva, Flex Penguin, The Scales, Lotusgirl, and others on the forum. Those are the SAME TYPE OF PEOPLE I come across every day; all talk and no show. I have seen very few people, even intellectuals, who do not have these biases. For example, I had this one brilliant Chinese kid in my class tell me that “White people are superior. Think about China. What else is there besides deserts and mountains?..Without the British, India would just be a bunch of tribes.” Something is unmistakable wrong here and you cannot deny that once you get around to living here and seeing what I have seen.
It is not a matter of letting go. It is a matter of pride and honor, suffering and wealth, ignorance and knowledge. When I see Hinduism insulted by the people on this forum with remarks like “Hinduism is in a pile of deep shit! All talk but shadowy reality” it doesn’t just hurt me as a Hindu but as an Indian. And you know what is sad? Its true. Most of it anyway, but enough of it is enough to strike you at the core.
Surya, I know you want to spread the glories of Hinduism but that cannot happen yet. Hinduism is identified to much with India and its culture and societal systems. In fact, if it weren’t for the caste system, imagine how much more receptive the world world would have been for the past century! The truth is that in order to get rid of these ad populum logical fallacies and ignorance, we must seek to better the very causes of those misconceptions: the poverty and misery in India. Let’s face it, hardly any Westerners want to wade through “a pile of shit” to get to the core of Hinduism and then have to face all the discrimination and ignorance and THEN waste the time to educate the ignorant people.
This isn’t a matter of nationalism or India. Its about restoring the integrity of the Indian people, a people among whom I was lucky enough to be reincarnated amongst, and its cultural, intellectual, and societal fabric.
Seriously, do you think anyone would have gave a rat’s ass about Greek philosophy if the region was poor and not a military and naval powerhouse and was constantly being invaded by Persia and what not? Do you think anyone would give much the same regard to Western and Chinese philosophy if the above conditions were true?
Lets face it, Hinduism is a joke the way it currently is and it is most certainly a bad joke to those who see the wisdom in our teachings AND, for example, the ignorant Indian pissing on the streets. In fact, I even contemplated converting to Buddhism just to escape from the misery of having to deal with all this inferiority complex. As shocking as it may sound, I even prayed to Jesus and Allah to help me find the right path.
No Indian, no HINDU should have to go through that. It shouldn’t be necessary considering the Truth in our scriptures. But of what avail is the Truth when it is hidden beneath a “pile of shit,” and hundreds of lies? Of what avail is the Truth when the very people and nations who seek to undermine us are the masters in this world?
This is why I want to help my country because I recognize that when it becomes great, the world will have no problem seeing the glories of Hinduism and the sameness of Indians. The same applies of any nation whose current state is akin to that of India and whose culture and history and rich in reality, but forgotten because of superficial considerations.
Secondly, SD…are you ready for this? I agree with you! Yes, it is true! 100% I just heard lightning strike! lol
Third, I love our President! Sorry Thomas! BTW, deficits have plummeted under Republicans. And Mr. Obama was left a mess to deal with.
Fourth, I do understand about bigotry in this country. But we have come such a long way recently. Where I live, Cincinnati Ohio, I am seeing less and less racism and more compassion and understanding. I am noticing and sensing more and more a subtle, but constant change spiritually. My yogini’s have notcied it too. We’ve had some great discussions about how differently this time feels. Like we are on the verge of something great. (speaking more globally here) And Nietzsche, where I live I really don’t see bias against Indians/Hindu’s. What I see is respect. It is unfortunate you have not had this experience. Perhaps it is the yoga and it’s community that I’ve surrounded myself with that leads me to think this way. I don’t know. But, take it from someone who grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, we have made great strides. We aren’t there yet, but I have faith we’ll get there. But then again, as SD knows, I’m a 1/2 full cup sort of gal. Suits me fine.
Thanks, I have been a bit busy recently and been living it large
This notion that East = spirituality and West = materialism is common and unquestioned stereotype that only belongs in history now and does not apply to the world of today. Just take a look at the major Eastern countries today, India, China and Japan, and ask where is this so-called spirituality? Most people are interested in only wealth, materials, gadgets, lifestyle in these places. Japan has the highest rate of suicide in the world, because so many people cannot keep up with the fast paced and shallow lifestyle. China is predominatly atheist, has largely killed of its own spiritual heritage in the Culture revolutions and quells any new spiritual movements. And India is dominated by an elite, English speaking middle class that craves Western lifestyle and Western products.
Have these countries been forced to accept Western materialism and Western culture? No, they accepted it themselves. India gained indepedence in 1947, but it never rejected materialism. In 1990's, due to outdated socialist policies, India had to open up its economy to the free market economy and allow unbridled capitalism and Westernization. Today, India is one of the most capitalist countries in the world. It chose capitalsim for itself - it was not forced on it.
What you are not showing the maturity to acknowledge is the East has chosen materialism for itself, it has not been forced to accept materialism. The West can be blamed for corrupting these countries historically, but it cannot be blamed for them choosing to stay with the corruption. They gained independence - they had a choice to go back to their spirituality - they chose not to. The more important question is to ask why did they not go back to spirituality? The answer is resoundingly clear: they were too poor to be spiritual again. They wanted wealth, materials, products, lifestyle - not spirituality. It makes a lot of logical sense really that first a man wants to feed, clothe and house himself, before he has the luxury to meditate and contemplate the nature of reality and soul. Even in Hindu traditional way of life, the last stage of life which is spirituality was entered into by first fulfilling the material desires: artha. There is no poor place anywhere in the world that is spiritual: All poor places in the world are ravaged by corruption, crime, poverty, illiteracy and disease.
I don't care what you say about the majority of India not being poor, the statistics do not lie:
Poverty in India:
Poverty is widespread in India, with the nation estimated to have a third of the world's poor. World Bank estimates, 80% of India's population lives on less than $2 a day.[1] According to a 2005 World Bank estimate, 41% of India falls below the international poverty line of US$ 1.25 a day (PPP, in nominal terms 21.6 a day in urban areas and 14.3 in rural areas); having reduced from 60% in 1981.[2]
Although the Indian economy has grown steadily over the last two decades, its growth has been uneven when comparing different social groups, economic groups, geographic regions, and rural and urban areas.[7] Between 1999 and 2008, the annualized growth rates for Gujarat (8.8%), Haryana (8.7%), or Delhi (7.4%) were much higher than for Bihar (5.1%), Uttar Pradesh (4.4%), or Madhya Pradesh (3.5%).[12] Poverty rates in rural Orissa (43%) and rural Bihar (41%) are among the world's most extreme.[13] A study by the Oxford Poverty and Human Development Initiative using a Multi-dimensional Poverty Index (MPI) found that there were 645 million[14] poor living under the MPI in India, 421 million of whom are concentrated in Bihar, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal. This number is higher than the 410 million poor living in the 26 poorest African nations.[5]
The statistics collected by reliable and reputable economic organizationns are not lying and nor are the observations of foreigners, such as myself to India, where we are greeted to images of mass poverty wherever we go in India, even in Mumbai the financial capital. Also, what does not go amiss is the massive gap between poor and the rich in India, and the rich in India are amongst the richest people in the world:
On the other end of the scale, the wealthy few in India have amassed great riches. While impacted by the global financial crisis, the number of US dollar billionaires in India on the Forbes list rebounded to 49 in 2010, after falling to 24 last year. The figure falls just short of the record high of 53 in 2008.
The Financial Express commented that year: “The wealth amassed by Indian billionaires—estimated at 340.9 billion dollars by the US business magazine Forbes—is nearly 31 percent of the country’s total GDP. This gives them nearly three times more weight in the economy than their American counterparts and over ten times of those in China. The GDP share of Indian billionaires’ wealth is more than four times of the global average.”
The situation is similar this year. While 49 individuals preside over what for most Indians is unimaginable wealth, the majority of people are struggling to survive from day to day. In India’s financial capital of Mumbai, more than six million desperately poor people, half of the city’s population, eke out an existence in the slums. Mumbai’s gleaming skyscrapers that symbolise India’s economic growth sit alongside makeshift hovels.
Like their counterparts around the world, India’s business elite likes to justify their position in society on the basis of their own personal initiative, acumen and drive. In reality, their wealth is the product of the exploitation of the country’s huge reserves of cheap labour and depends on the continued impoverishment of the rest of the population. This worsening social divide will inevitably produce a rebellion against the appalling conditions created by profit system and the ruling elites that defend and benefit from it.
Yes, India does have a success story - a success story for the few wealthy people who are increasingly become richer and richer and more powerful. If you don't have a problem with the fact that 70% of Indians are living in extreme poverty and only 30% enjoy a middle-class life comparable to the near 100% of people enjoy in Western countries, then then is something seriously wrong with you. I actually am starting to think you have no compassion or sympathy at all for the poor in India, by the way that you continue to deny or downplay their existence and suffering and trumpet the elite few. At the same time, I understand, why you would do this - your attitude is no different to the wealthy and elite in other capitalist countries. Thank your lucky stars that you were born in a wealthy family and not in an average Indian household, because otherwise your life would have been drastically different and you would not been so insensitive to the plight of the poor.
The rishawala and chaiwala have no time for the luxury of Yoga and meditation, they struggle to make ends meet in their daily life. They cannot even feed and house themselves adequately. Yes, Yoga and meditation is a luxury for those who can afford it. This is why Yoga has taken off in the West even before it retook of in India recently with Baba Ramdev and it is a massive industry in the West with a $6 billion dollar turnover in America alone:
It is no coincidence that Yoga was developed by a country that was the richest country on this planet right up until the 18th century. Why? Because of what I said: poor countries cannot afford and appreciate the luxury of Yoga and meditation. Rich countries can. Just as you seem to be in denial about how poor Indians are downplaying them, likewise you seem to be downplaying the rise of spiritual Westerners. You are quick to the point out the rise of a few wealthy Indians, but downplay the rise of a few spiritual Westerners. Your double standards are painfully clear.
The rishawala and chaiwala have no time for the luxury of Yoga and meditation, they struggle to make ends meet in their daily life. They cannot even feed and house themselves adequately. Yes, Yoga and meditation is a luxury for those who can afford it. This is why Yoga has taken off in the West even before it retook of in India recently with Baba Ramdev and it is a massive industry in the West with a $6 billion dollar turnover in America alone:
It is no coincidence that Yoga was developed by a country that was the richest country on this planet right up until the 18th century. Why? Because of what I said: poor countries cannot afford and appreciate the luxury of Yoga and meditation. Rich countries can. Just as you seem to be in denial about how poor Indians are downplaying them, likewise you seem to be downplaying the rise of spiritual Westerners. You are quick to the point out the rise of a few wealthy Indians, but downplay the rise of a few spiritual Westerners. Your double standards are painfully clear.[/QUOTE]
I would tend to agree with SD on some of the points he has made. There are several very very wealthy people in India, but there are also millions below the poverty line. However, SD overlooks the fact that the average income has climbed. The middle and lower middle class earn much more than their parents and grandparents did and have higher disposable incomes. This is not to deny that the poverty levels of the poor have remained as bad as before- but there is more awareness now. There are also several among the wealthy who recognise this fact and have turned their efforts towards improving the lot of these people. I know youngsters who have after passing out from IIM, Ahmedabad (THE B school in India) , who have chosen to work in relatively low paying jobs in NGOs which work for the less privileged. The unfortunate reality is that the political system in India , is still highly corrupt, and has not found the will to do anything for the poor, beyond lip service. In fact , I would suspect that they have a vested interest in keeping them poor so that they get easy votes during elections by thowing a few rupees. But things are improving- as awareness grows -I put a huge amount of faith in the youth of India for they are already showing that they are capable of independent thought and it is my hope that they will do for the country ,what thier parents could not.
And I see hope in their eyes. and as long as Hope subsists, so does the possibility of success.
And SD, while I agree with what you have stated about yoga being practiced by the wealthy, I have seen a change in that. The studio where I got my teacher training has a policy that if you cannot afford to pay, pay whatever you can or pay nothing. During our training, they really stressed the importance of Karma yoga. Most of those I graduated with are very giving of their time with regards to yoga. As a teacher, I have offered to many students who expressed their concern about paying, that I would forgo my pay to allow them to take my class. Yoga should be available to all. And I do see more and more studio’s offering free classes, or at least reduced, to those who cannot pay. I have gained from my students as much as I hope they’ve gained from me, so I look at it as a way to give back.
For better or worse, the West have become stewards of Yoga. It is up to them to uphold the standards. I see less emphasis on ONLY the asana and more on the Whole of Yoga. I see this here and it will spread in time to the west and east coasts.
Perhaps, down the road, there will be a beautiful blending of east and west. I think we are closer than imagined. The current economic crisis showed the immense flaws in capitalism (greed) and there is a shift toward questioning which will only retune or rethink our capitalistic society. As we become less capitalistic we become more spiritual.
The West will never be truly spiritual as long as chauvinism exists. Their ignorance and bigotry exists in the deepest levels of their subconscious. You don’t have to look much further than the people on this forum who spout “Yoga is older than Hinduism.”
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;51615]First off, I am not a Christian!
Secondly, SD…are you ready for this? I agree with you! Yes, it is true! 100% I just heard lightning strike! lol
Third, I love our President! Sorry Thomas! BTW, deficits have plummeted under Republicans. And Mr. Obama was left a mess to deal with.
Fourth, I do understand about bigotry in this country. But we have come such a long way recently. Where I live, Cincinnati Ohio, I am seeing less and less racism and more compassion and understanding. I am noticing and sensing more and more a subtle, but constant change spiritually. My yogini’s have notcied it too. We’ve had some great discussions about how differently this time feels. Like we are on the verge of something great. (speaking more globally here) And Nietzsche, where I live I really don’t see bias against Indians/Hindu’s. What I see is respect. It is unfortunate you have not had this experience. Perhaps it is the yoga and it’s community that I’ve surrounded myself with that leads me to think this way. I don’t know. But, take it from someone who grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, we have made great strides. We aren’t there yet, but I have faith we’ll get there. But then again, as SD knows, I’m a 1/2 full cup sort of gal. Suits me fine.[/QUOTE]
You are a Christian in that you share many of their biases. (I paraphrase) “Oh hoW HORRIBLE! Woman are treated badly in Hinduism because of Hinduism! The violent and barbaric teachings in the Bible are really just parables! The artificial insertions of caste system bigotry are representative of Hinduism!”
I would hazard a guess and say that the people you associate with have been civilized by the influence of Yoga.
What is truly unfortunate is that the majority of Americans have not felt this influence. Most of America is a depressing cesspool of Western chauvinism and ignorance.
I don’t understand how you all think spirituality can flourish alongside such antithetical ideals.
I agree with you the West will not be truily spiritual as long chauvanism and ignorance exists, the West still has a long way to go before it reaches the levels India had reached in the past. But India has an even longer way to go before it reaches the levels it had reached in the past. Again, the stats are not lying India lags behind America significantly in all areas of development: civil and human rights, human development index, infrastructure, regulation, science and research.
Again, I will point out I have never had to get off a moving bus in the UK. In fact, here we press a bell, the bus driver stops, we say thank you and then get off our spot. I have never faced once in my entire life a girl getting harrassed on the bus. I have never faced cripples lying on the street and people walking past them as if they are not there. I have never seen tourists here get hassled on the streets. I have never been asked for a bribe and getting through airport customs is smoothe sailing.
In the words of the wise man Jesus: do not try to remove the splinter from your neighbours eye, when you have a beam in your own. You are making yourself look very silly and immature by condemning the West for its ignorance and chauvanism, when India suffers far worse from these problems. Like I said, I have lived both in the West and in India, and although India is my motherland, it is clear to any rational and sensible person the West is more civilised.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51658]I look forward to your response.
I agree with you the West will not be truily spiritual as long chauvanism and ignorance exists, the West still has a long way to go before it reaches the levels India had reached in the past. But India has an even longer way to go before it reaches the levels it had reached in the past. Again, the stats are not lying India lags behind America significantly in all areas of development: civil and human rights, human development index, infrastructure, regulation, science and research.
Again, I will point out I have never had to get off a moving bus in the UK. In fact, here we press a bell, the bus driver stops, we say thank you and then get off our spot. I have never faced once in my entire life a girl getting harrassed on the bus. I have never faced cripples lying on the street and people walking past them as if they are not there. I have never seen tourists here get hassled on the streets. I have never been asked for a bribe and getting through airport customs is smoothe sailing.
In the words of the wise man Jesus: do not try to remove the splinter from your neighbours eye, when you have a beam in your own. You are making yourself look very silly and immature by condemning the West for its ignorance and chauvanism, when India suffers far worse from these problems. Like I said, I have lived both in the West and in India, and although India is my motherland, it is clear to any rational and sensible person the West is more civilised.[/QUOTE]
…Assuming America will survive by then and not politically and economically fracture. From what I can see, the signs aren’t good at all.
Yes, I do not deny this.
Funny thing about buses in “civilized” countries. When my family and I were vacationing in London, my parents got into an argument (furious whisper type) on the best spot to get off of. The tour guide overheard our argument and walked to the part of the bus we were on. What he did next was shocking; he yelled at us for not listening properly, in fact yelled into the microphone so that the whole bus and the people on the adjacent streets could hear. It was honestly the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to me or my family in our entire lives.
Another situation was when during the morning of the day we were meant to leave London, the manager of the hotel told us to get some breakfast, saying that the workers in the breakfast area would let us in on his command even though there was still a 30 minute more wait for the area to open. We went to the breakfast area and told the white lady there what the manager had told us. She refused to let us in despite the fact that there were two or three (white) families already eating in the area.
Additionally, a hotel employee told us that the hotel could book a taxi for us on the first day of our arrival. Now, we are not the most cognizant of tourists and the commission factor slipped out of our minds since
1). We were busy just trying to take in the city.
2). They never told us.
Imagine our infuriation when the taxi driver asked for double the money so he could go back and pay the hotel the commission.
In France, we were waiting for a bus to take us back to our hotel. It was beginning to get dark and we were tired from a day full of touring and so forth. We confirmed the timings, route number, and the location of the stop so we would get picked up by the right bus. The bus arrived, we got on, and patiently waited. As time drew on, we realized that the bus was actually taking us [I]further[/I] away from the hotel and into the heart of Paris. We checked the routes in the brochure, saw that everything was part of the route and patiently waited again. However, more and more people began to get off and we were beginning to get worried. When the last person got off the bus, we told the driver about our predicament and asked him whether he could drop us to a location closer to our hotel. He simply said “No, it is getting late and I have to go. Get out” and kicked us out at a stop almost twice as far as we were previously. The walk was long and hard and my parents, who have back and leg problems, had to sit out the next day.
Uhm, the crippled on the streets are ignored here as well. The impoverished and the destitute are ignored everywhere, in every city. They are not ignored out of malice but rather out of a desire to not associate oneself with such poignant and painful events. This is especially true in developing countries.
Lol, I have seen girls here get harassed everywhere and all the time here SD. In India, all the people I have seen are modest. You honestly sound like you take vacations in Bihar or some other poor Northern state. You still haven’t answered WHERE you visit. I seriously want to know now. In Hyderabad, I have never seen anything similar to what you describe.
My family has never been asked for a bribe in any airport in India. Again, what place do you visit? You seem awfully unwilling to tell me this crucial factor.
India suffers far worse than the West in ignorance and chauvinism? What are you saying? Do you really think any India would think they are materially superior to the West? The idea is laughable, even for me. Besides, I have never seen an Indian from India say anything like this. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of Americans scorn other nations, religions, and cultures while being confident about theirs.
You are a very silly young man Nietzsche I must say! You do come up with some wild things!
Regarding the paraphrasing:
The reason for me posting this is to shed light on the plight of women. It is not just women in India, it is women across the globe. Another reason for posting this is to point out that India and Hinduism does indeed have a history of violence. Violence against women. This is contrary to what Surya Deva has written. The women of India have fought long and hard for their independence and should be commended and respected by both other cultures and their Hindu culture.
This is what I actually wrote. Your paraphrasing took it out of context. I was trying to show SD that India/HInduism does have some violence in their history.
The parable thing, well, it’s a dead horse in the religious thread. Been there done that, tried to explain but to no avail. 2 camps, 2 interpretations.
And yes, I’d like to think that yoga has “enlightened” some people I associate with. Especially my students! Civilized is not the correct word and was an unnecessary comment.
Again, I find it sad that you’ve experienced such chauvinism and ignorance in the US.
Another irony that needs to be exposed that although you are condemning Western culture, it is blatantly clear Indians want Western culture. If we look at the everyday Indian media and entertainment industry, it is clear to see just how much Indians want Western culture:
Western sex:
Britney spears wannabe:
Cheeky girl, pole dancer wananbe:
Western youth and college culture:
Western hip hop and music:
English song wannabe:
Hollywood special effects wannabe:
Do not pretend that that these are isolated examples, they are highly common and fill Indian television and media. The Indian public are constantly bombarded by this imagery and look up to this culture. Now, where exactly is the Indian culture in all of this? Where is Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Ayurveda, dharma? Nowhere to be seen. Instead all you can see is imitations of Western culture. Indians at large are not interested in spirituality.
