Hindutva

Spirituality Religion
#74

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51594]The West is not really waning, but it has progressed. Before the West was an industrial economy and today it is a knowledge economy based on service industries like information technology, multimedia and education. Today, most of its industrial needs are outsourced to the East. The East are industralizing. The West has already surpassed that stage; the East is clearly behind.

The East is only starting to enjoy the same kind of lifestyle we in the West have enjoyed for decades. The East have a taste for it and are living it up. On the other hand, we are in the West are developing a distaste for it and want something more meaningful. Now, again as you are not in touch with the spiritual community in the West, you are not aware of the massive changes that are taking place in the landscape of the West.

India, China etc are treading a path the West has already treaded. They are backwards compared to the West. They are not as developed, and hence why they are recognised as developing countries.

The West is the bringer of the future of this planet man. India is no longer the centre of the world. You are too attached to India. Let go.[/QUOTE]

SURYA DEVA! These forums were incredibly boring without you! Where were you?

In depends on the area in question. Materially = West. Spiritually = East. West = Mockery of that Spirituality.

No, there is no widespread New Ager movement here. My parents have never mentioned such a thing (besides the ISKCON, Osho stuff) and they have lived here for 30 years. I have lived all over the U.S and have never seen such a thing. I have seen all the statistics of the U.S and nowhere do I see that such a change has penetrated this depressing society.

The truth is that America, in many ways, is not like the rest of the West (it rhymes :D). America is still deeply bound to its Christian roots to which it identifies itself strongly. Sure, Christianity is dying; however, people are still clinging embarrassingly onto Christian biases and Western chauvinism. Look at Indra Deva, Flex Penguin, The Scales, Lotusgirl, and others on the forum. Those are the SAME TYPE OF PEOPLE I come across every day; all talk and no show. I have seen very few people, even intellectuals, who do not have these biases. For example, I had this one brilliant Chinese kid in my class tell me that “White people are superior. Think about China. What else is there besides deserts and mountains?..Without the British, India would just be a bunch of tribes.” Something is unmistakable wrong here and you cannot deny that once you get around to living here and seeing what I have seen.

It is not a matter of letting go. It is a matter of pride and honor, suffering and wealth, ignorance and knowledge. When I see Hinduism insulted by the people on this forum with remarks like “Hinduism is in a pile of deep shit! All talk but shadowy reality” it doesn’t just hurt me as a Hindu but as an Indian. And you know what is sad? Its true. Most of it anyway, but enough of it is enough to strike you at the core.

Surya, I know you want to spread the glories of Hinduism but that cannot happen yet. Hinduism is identified to much with India and its culture and societal systems. In fact, if it weren’t for the caste system, imagine how much more receptive the world world would have been for the past century! The truth is that in order to get rid of these ad populum logical fallacies and ignorance, we must seek to better the very causes of those misconceptions: the poverty and misery in India. Let’s face it, hardly any Westerners want to wade through “a pile of shit” to get to the core of Hinduism and then have to face all the discrimination and ignorance and THEN waste the time to educate the ignorant people.

This isn’t a matter of nationalism or India. Its about restoring the integrity of the Indian people, a people among whom I was lucky enough to be reincarnated amongst, and its cultural, intellectual, and societal fabric.

Seriously, do you think anyone would have gave a rat’s ass about Greek philosophy if the region was poor and not a military and naval powerhouse and was constantly being invaded by Persia and what not? Do you think anyone would give much the same regard to Western and Chinese philosophy if the above conditions were true?

Lets face it, Hinduism is a joke the way it currently is and it is most certainly a bad joke to those who see the wisdom in our teachings AND, for example, the ignorant Indian pissing on the streets. In fact, I even contemplated converting to Buddhism just to escape from the misery of having to deal with all this inferiority complex. As shocking as it may sound, I even prayed to Jesus and Allah to help me find the right path.

No Indian, no HINDU should have to go through that. It shouldn’t be necessary considering the Truth in our scriptures. But of what avail is the Truth when it is hidden beneath a “pile of shit,” and hundreds of lies? Of what avail is the Truth when the very people and nations who seek to undermine us are the masters in this world?

This is why I want to help my country because I recognize that when it becomes great, the world will have no problem seeing the glories of Hinduism and the sameness of Indians. The same applies of any nation whose current state is akin to that of India and whose culture and history and rich in reality, but forgotten because of superficial considerations.

#75

First off, I am not a Christian!

Secondly, SD…are you ready for this? I agree with you! Yes, it is true! 100% I just heard lightning strike! lol

Third, I love our President! Sorry Thomas! BTW, deficits have plummeted under Republicans. And Mr. Obama was left a mess to deal with.

Fourth, I do understand about bigotry in this country. But we have come such a long way recently. Where I live, Cincinnati Ohio, I am seeing less and less racism and more compassion and understanding. I am noticing and sensing more and more a subtle, but constant change spiritually. My yogini’s have notcied it too. We’ve had some great discussions about how differently this time feels. Like we are on the verge of something great. (speaking more globally here) And Nietzsche, where I live I really don’t see bias against Indians/Hindu’s. What I see is respect. It is unfortunate you have not had this experience. Perhaps it is the yoga and it’s community that I’ve surrounded myself with that leads me to think this way. I don’t know. But, take it from someone who grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, we have made great strides. We aren’t there yet, but I have faith we’ll get there. But then again, as SD knows, I’m a 1/2 full cup sort of gal. Suits me fine.

#76

Thanks, I have been a bit busy recently and been living it large :wink:

This notion that East = spirituality and West = materialism is common and unquestioned stereotype that only belongs in history now and does not apply to the world of today. Just take a look at the major Eastern countries today, India, China and Japan, and ask where is this so-called spirituality? Most people are interested in only wealth, materials, gadgets, lifestyle in these places. Japan has the highest rate of suicide in the world, because so many people cannot keep up with the fast paced and shallow lifestyle. China is predominatly atheist, has largely killed of its own spiritual heritage in the Culture revolutions and quells any new spiritual movements. And India is dominated by an elite, English speaking middle class that craves Western lifestyle and Western products.
Have these countries been forced to accept Western materialism and Western culture? No, they accepted it themselves. India gained indepedence in 1947, but it never rejected materialism. In 1990's, due to outdated socialist policies, India had to open up its economy to the free market economy and allow unbridled capitalism and Westernization. Today, India is one of the most capitalist countries in the world. It chose capitalsim for itself - it was not forced on it.

What you are not showing the maturity to acknowledge is the East has chosen materialism for itself, it has not been forced to accept materialism. The West can be blamed for corrupting these countries historically, but it cannot be blamed for them choosing to stay with the corruption. They gained independence - they had a choice to go back to their spirituality - they chose not to. The more important question is to ask why did they not go back to spirituality? The answer is resoundingly clear: they were too poor to be spiritual again. They wanted wealth, materials, products, lifestyle - not spirituality. It makes a lot of logical sense really that first a man wants to feed, clothe and house himself, before he has the luxury to meditate and contemplate the nature of reality and soul. Even in Hindu traditional way of life, the last stage of life which is spirituality was entered into by first fulfilling the material desires: artha. There is no poor place anywhere in the world that is spiritual: All poor places in the world are ravaged by corruption, crime, poverty, illiteracy and disease.

I don't care what you say about the majority of India not being poor, the statistics do not lie:

Poverty in India:

Poverty is widespread in India, with the nation estimated to have a third of the world's poor. World Bank estimates, 80% of India's population lives on less than $2 a day.[1] According to a 2005 World Bank estimate, 41% of India falls below the international poverty line of US$ 1.25 a day (PPP, in nominal terms 21.6 a day in urban areas and 14.3 in rural areas); having reduced from 60% in 1981.[2]

Although the Indian economy has grown steadily over the last two decades, its growth has been uneven when comparing different social groups, economic groups, geographic regions, and rural and urban areas.[7] Between 1999 and 2008, the annualized growth rates for Gujarat (8.8%), Haryana (8.7%), or Delhi (7.4%) were much higher than for Bihar (5.1%), Uttar Pradesh (4.4%), or Madhya Pradesh (3.5%).[12] Poverty rates in rural Orissa (43%) and rural Bihar (41%) are among the world's most extreme.[13] A study by the Oxford Poverty and Human Development Initiative using a Multi-dimensional Poverty Index (MPI) found that there were 645 million[14] poor living under the MPI in India, 421 million of whom are concentrated in Bihar, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh and West Bengal. This number is higher than the 410 million poor living in the 26 poorest African nations.[5]

The statistics collected by reliable and reputable economic organizationns are not lying and nor are the observations of foreigners, such as myself to India, where we are greeted to images of mass poverty wherever we go in India, even in Mumbai the financial capital. Also, what does not go amiss is the massive gap between poor and the rich in India, and the rich in India are amongst the richest people in the world:

On the other end of the scale, the wealthy few in India have amassed great riches. While impacted by the global financial crisis, the number of US dollar billionaires in India on the Forbes list rebounded to 49 in 2010, after falling to 24 last year. The figure falls just short of the record high of 53 in 2008.

The Financial Express commented that year: “The wealth amassed by Indian billionaires—estimated at 340.9 billion dollars by the US business magazine Forbes—is nearly 31 percent of the country’s total GDP. This gives them nearly three times more weight in the economy than their American counterparts and over ten times of those in China. The GDP share of Indian billionaires’ wealth is more than four times of the global average.”
The situation is similar this year. While 49 individuals preside over what for most Indians is unimaginable wealth, the majority of people are struggling to survive from day to day. In India’s financial capital of Mumbai, more than six million desperately poor people, half of the city’s population, eke out an existence in the slums. Mumbai’s gleaming skyscrapers that symbolise India’s economic growth sit alongside makeshift hovels.
Like their counterparts around the world, India’s business elite likes to justify their position in society on the basis of their own personal initiative, acumen and drive. In reality, their wealth is the product of the exploitation of the country’s huge reserves of cheap labour and depends on the continued impoverishment of the rest of the population. This worsening social divide will inevitably produce a rebellion against the appalling conditions created by profit system and the ruling elites that defend and benefit from it.

Yes, India does have a success story - a success story for the few wealthy people who are increasingly become richer and richer and more powerful. If you don't have a problem with the fact that 70% of Indians are living in extreme poverty and only 30% enjoy a middle-class life comparable to the near 100% of people enjoy in Western countries, then then is something seriously wrong with you. I actually am starting to think you have no compassion or sympathy at all for the poor in India, by the way that you continue to deny or downplay their existence and suffering and trumpet the elite few. At the same time, I understand, why you would do this - your attitude is no different to the wealthy and elite in other capitalist countries. Thank your lucky stars that you were born in a wealthy family and not in an average Indian household, because otherwise your life would have been drastically different and you would not been so insensitive to the plight of the poor.

The rishawala and chaiwala have no time for the luxury of Yoga and meditation, they struggle to make ends meet in their daily life. They cannot even feed and house themselves adequately. Yes, Yoga and meditation is a luxury for those who can afford it. This is why Yoga has taken off in the West even before it retook of in India recently with Baba Ramdev and it is a massive industry in the West with a $6 billion dollar turnover in America alone:

In America Yoga is practiced by the wealthy: Median Household Income: $82,200, 44% of yogis have household incomes of $75,000 or more; 24% have more than $100,000: http://www.yogabusinessacademy.com/blog/2011/01/31/15-things-you-did-not-know-about-yoga-industry/

It is no coincidence that Yoga was developed by a country that was the richest country on this planet right up until the 18th century. Why? Because of what I said: poor countries cannot afford and appreciate the luxury of Yoga and meditation. Rich countries can. Just as you seem to be in denial about how poor Indians are downplaying them, likewise you seem to be downplaying the rise of spiritual Westerners. You are quick to the point out the rise of a few wealthy Indians, but downplay the rise of a few spiritual Westerners. Your double standards are painfully clear.

#77

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51617]Poverty in India:

The rishawala and chaiwala have no time for the luxury of Yoga and meditation, they struggle to make ends meet in their daily life. They cannot even feed and house themselves adequately. Yes, Yoga and meditation is a luxury for those who can afford it. This is why Yoga has taken off in the West even before it retook of in India recently with Baba Ramdev and it is a massive industry in the West with a $6 billion dollar turnover in America alone:

In America Yoga is practiced by the wealthy: Median Household Income: $82,200, 44% of yogis have household incomes of $75,000 or more; 24% have more than $100,000: http://www.yogabusinessacademy.com/blog/2011/01/31/15-things-you-did-not-know-about-yoga-industry/

It is no coincidence that Yoga was developed by a country that was the richest country on this planet right up until the 18th century. Why? Because of what I said: poor countries cannot afford and appreciate the luxury of Yoga and meditation. Rich countries can. Just as you seem to be in denial about how poor Indians are downplaying them, likewise you seem to be downplaying the rise of spiritual Westerners. You are quick to the point out the rise of a few wealthy Indians, but downplay the rise of a few spiritual Westerners. Your double standards are painfully clear.[/QUOTE]

I would tend to agree with SD on some of the points he has made. There are several very very wealthy people in India, but there are also millions below the poverty line. However, SD overlooks the fact that the average income has climbed. The middle and lower middle class earn much more than their parents and grandparents did and have higher disposable incomes. This is not to deny that the poverty levels of the poor have remained as bad as before- but there is more awareness now. There are also several among the wealthy who recognise this fact and have turned their efforts towards improving the lot of these people. I know youngsters who have after passing out from IIM, Ahmedabad (THE B school in India) , who have chosen to work in relatively low paying jobs in NGOs which work for the less privileged. The unfortunate reality is that the political system in India , is still highly corrupt, and has not found the will to do anything for the poor, beyond lip service. In fact , I would suspect that they have a vested interest in keeping them poor so that they get easy votes during elections by thowing a few rupees. But things are improving- as awareness grows -I put a huge amount of faith in the youth of India for they are already showing that they are capable of independent thought and it is my hope that they will do for the country ,what thier parents could not.

And I see hope in their eyes. and as long as Hope subsists, so does the possibility of success.:stuck_out_tongue:

#78

And SD, while I agree with what you have stated about yoga being practiced by the wealthy, I have seen a change in that. The studio where I got my teacher training has a policy that if you cannot afford to pay, pay whatever you can or pay nothing. During our training, they really stressed the importance of Karma yoga. Most of those I graduated with are very giving of their time with regards to yoga. As a teacher, I have offered to many students who expressed their concern about paying, that I would forgo my pay to allow them to take my class. Yoga should be available to all. And I do see more and more studio’s offering free classes, or at least reduced, to those who cannot pay. I have gained from my students as much as I hope they’ve gained from me, so I look at it as a way to give back.

For better or worse, the West have become stewards of Yoga. It is up to them to uphold the standards. I see less emphasis on ONLY the asana and more on the Whole of Yoga. I see this here and it will spread in time to the west and east coasts.

Perhaps, down the road, there will be a beautiful blending of east and west. I think we are closer than imagined. The current economic crisis showed the immense flaws in capitalism (greed) and there is a shift toward questioning which will only retune or rethink our capitalistic society. As we become less capitalistic we become more spiritual.

#79

I will respond to your posts in due time.

The West will never be truly spiritual as long as chauvinism exists. Their ignorance and bigotry exists in the deepest levels of their subconscious. You don’t have to look much further than the people on this forum who spout “Yoga is older than Hinduism.”

#80

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;51615]First off, I am not a Christian!

Secondly, SD…are you ready for this? I agree with you! Yes, it is true! 100% I just heard lightning strike! lol

Third, I love our President! Sorry Thomas! BTW, deficits have plummeted under Republicans. And Mr. Obama was left a mess to deal with.

Fourth, I do understand about bigotry in this country. But we have come such a long way recently. Where I live, Cincinnati Ohio, I am seeing less and less racism and more compassion and understanding. I am noticing and sensing more and more a subtle, but constant change spiritually. My yogini’s have notcied it too. We’ve had some great discussions about how differently this time feels. Like we are on the verge of something great. (speaking more globally here) And Nietzsche, where I live I really don’t see bias against Indians/Hindu’s. What I see is respect. It is unfortunate you have not had this experience. Perhaps it is the yoga and it’s community that I’ve surrounded myself with that leads me to think this way. I don’t know. But, take it from someone who grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, we have made great strides. We aren’t there yet, but I have faith we’ll get there. But then again, as SD knows, I’m a 1/2 full cup sort of gal. Suits me fine.[/QUOTE]

You are a Christian in that you share many of their biases. (I paraphrase) “Oh hoW HORRIBLE! Woman are treated badly in Hinduism because of Hinduism! The violent and barbaric teachings in the Bible are really just parables! The artificial insertions of caste system bigotry are representative of Hinduism!”

I would hazard a guess and say that the people you associate with have been civilized by the influence of Yoga. :wink:

What is truly unfortunate is that the majority of Americans have not felt this influence. Most of America is a depressing cesspool of Western chauvinism and ignorance.

I don’t understand how you all think spirituality can flourish alongside such antithetical ideals.

#81

I look forward to your response.

I agree with you the West will not be truily spiritual as long chauvanism and ignorance exists, the West still has a long way to go before it reaches the levels India had reached in the past. But India has an even longer way to go before it reaches the levels it had reached in the past. Again, the stats are not lying India lags behind America significantly in all areas of development: civil and human rights, human development index, infrastructure, regulation, science and research.

Again, I will point out I have never had to get off a moving bus in the UK. In fact, here we press a bell, the bus driver stops, we say thank you and then get off our spot. I have never faced once in my entire life a girl getting harrassed on the bus. I have never faced cripples lying on the street and people walking past them as if they are not there. I have never seen tourists here get hassled on the streets. I have never been asked for a bribe and getting through airport customs is smoothe sailing.

In the words of the wise man Jesus: do not try to remove the splinter from your neighbours eye, when you have a beam in your own. You are making yourself look very silly and immature by condemning the West for its ignorance and chauvanism, when India suffers far worse from these problems. Like I said, I have lived both in the West and in India, and although India is my motherland, it is clear to any rational and sensible person the West is more civilised.

#82

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51658]I look forward to your response.

I agree with you the West will not be truily spiritual as long chauvanism and ignorance exists, the West still has a long way to go before it reaches the levels India had reached in the past. But India has an even longer way to go before it reaches the levels it had reached in the past. Again, the stats are not lying India lags behind America significantly in all areas of development: civil and human rights, human development index, infrastructure, regulation, science and research.

Again, I will point out I have never had to get off a moving bus in the UK. In fact, here we press a bell, the bus driver stops, we say thank you and then get off our spot. I have never faced once in my entire life a girl getting harrassed on the bus. I have never faced cripples lying on the street and people walking past them as if they are not there. I have never seen tourists here get hassled on the streets. I have never been asked for a bribe and getting through airport customs is smoothe sailing.

In the words of the wise man Jesus: do not try to remove the splinter from your neighbours eye, when you have a beam in your own. You are making yourself look very silly and immature by condemning the West for its ignorance and chauvanism, when India suffers far worse from these problems. Like I said, I have lived both in the West and in India, and although India is my motherland, it is clear to any rational and sensible person the West is more civilised.[/QUOTE]

…Assuming America will survive by then and not politically and economically fracture. From what I can see, the signs aren’t good at all. :wink:

Yes, I do not deny this.

Funny thing about buses in “civilized” countries. When my family and I were vacationing in London, my parents got into an argument (furious whisper type) on the best spot to get off of. The tour guide overheard our argument and walked to the part of the bus we were on. What he did next was shocking; he yelled at us for not listening properly, in fact yelled into the microphone so that the whole bus and the people on the adjacent streets could hear. It was honestly the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to me or my family in our entire lives.

Another situation was when during the morning of the day we were meant to leave London, the manager of the hotel told us to get some breakfast, saying that the workers in the breakfast area would let us in on his command even though there was still a 30 minute more wait for the area to open. We went to the breakfast area and told the white lady there what the manager had told us. She refused to let us in despite the fact that there were two or three (white) families already eating in the area.

Additionally, a hotel employee told us that the hotel could book a taxi for us on the first day of our arrival. Now, we are not the most cognizant of tourists and the commission factor slipped out of our minds since

1). We were busy just trying to take in the city.
2). They never told us.

Imagine our infuriation when the taxi driver asked for double the money so he could go back and pay the hotel the commission.

In France, we were waiting for a bus to take us back to our hotel. It was beginning to get dark and we were tired from a day full of touring and so forth. We confirmed the timings, route number, and the location of the stop so we would get picked up by the right bus. The bus arrived, we got on, and patiently waited. As time drew on, we realized that the bus was actually taking us [I]further[/I] away from the hotel and into the heart of Paris. We checked the routes in the brochure, saw that everything was part of the route and patiently waited again. However, more and more people began to get off and we were beginning to get worried. When the last person got off the bus, we told the driver about our predicament and asked him whether he could drop us to a location closer to our hotel. He simply said “No, it is getting late and I have to go. Get out” and kicked us out at a stop almost twice as far as we were previously. The walk was long and hard and my parents, who have back and leg problems, had to sit out the next day.

Uhm, the crippled on the streets are ignored here as well. The impoverished and the destitute are ignored everywhere, in every city. They are not ignored out of malice but rather out of a desire to not associate oneself with such poignant and painful events. This is especially true in developing countries.

Lol, I have seen girls here get harassed everywhere and all the time here SD. In India, all the people I have seen are modest. You honestly sound like you take vacations in Bihar or some other poor Northern state. You still haven’t answered WHERE you visit. I seriously want to know now. In Hyderabad, I have never seen anything similar to what you describe.

My family has never been asked for a bribe in any airport in India. Again, what place do you visit? You seem awfully unwilling to tell me this crucial factor.

India suffers far worse than the West in ignorance and chauvinism? What are you saying? Do you really think any India would think they are materially superior to the West? The idea is laughable, even for me. Besides, I have never seen an Indian from India say anything like this. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of Americans scorn other nations, religions, and cultures while being confident about theirs.

#83

You are a very silly young man Nietzsche I must say! You do come up with some wild things!

Regarding the paraphrasing:

The reason for me posting this is to shed light on the plight of women. It is not just women in India, it is women across the globe. Another reason for posting this is to point out that India and Hinduism does indeed have a history of violence. Violence against women. This is contrary to what Surya Deva has written. The women of India have fought long and hard for their independence and should be commended and respected by both other cultures and their Hindu culture.

This is what I actually wrote. Your paraphrasing took it out of context. I was trying to show SD that India/HInduism does have some violence in their history.

The parable thing, well, it’s a dead horse in the religious thread. Been there done that, tried to explain but to no avail. 2 camps, 2 interpretations.

And yes, I’d like to think that yoga has “enlightened” some people I associate with. Especially my students! Civilized is not the correct word and was an unnecessary comment.

Again, I find it sad that you’ve experienced such chauvinism and ignorance in the US.

#84

Another irony that needs to be exposed that although you are condemning Western culture, it is blatantly clear Indians want Western culture. If we look at the everyday Indian media and entertainment industry, it is clear to see just how much Indians want Western culture:

Western sex:


Britney spears wannabe:

Cheeky girl, pole dancer wananbe:

Western youth and college culture:


Western hip hop and music:

English song wannabe:

Hollywood special effects wannabe:

Do not pretend that that these are isolated examples, they are highly common and fill Indian television and media. The Indian public are constantly bombarded by this imagery and look up to this culture. Now, where exactly is the Indian culture in all of this? Where is Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Ayurveda, dharma? Nowhere to be seen. Instead all you can see is imitations of Western culture. Indians at large are not interested in spirituality.

#85

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;51661]You are a very silly young man Nietzsche I must say! You do come up with some wild things!

Regarding the paraphrasing:

This is what I actually wrote. Your paraphrasing took it out of context. I was trying to show SD that India/HInduism does have some violence in their history.

The parable thing, well, it’s a dead horse in the religious thread. Been there done that, tried to explain but to no avail. 2 camps, 2 interpretations.

And yes, I’d like to think that yoga has “enlightened” some people I associate with. Especially my students! Civilized is not the correct word and was an unnecessary comment.

Again, I find it sad that you’ve experienced such chauvinism and ignorance in the US.[/QUOTE]

Lol. So wrong. It isn’t “HINDUISM” silly but rather INDIAN SOCIETY. HOW HARD IS THAT TO GRASP?

You are basically saying the same thing as what I “paraphrased.”

No, "enlightened " is not the correct word. No one is enlightened, especially Westerners with their materialism and so forth.

They are “civilized” in the sense that they have outgrown their discriminatory views of “inferior” cultures, religions, and nations (a natural viewpoint that comes out of being raised in the West) and learned to see the inner qualities, so to speak.

I too find it sad that I have been subjected to the most common temperamental deficiencies in the U.S.

#86

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51662]Another irony that needs to be exposed that although you are condemning Western culture, it is blatantly clear Indians want Western culture. If we look at the everyday Indian media and entertainment industry, it is clear to see just how much Indians want Western culture:

Western sex:


Britney spears wannabe:

Cheeky girl, pole dancer wananbe:

Western youth and college culture:


Western hip hop and music:

English song wannabe:

Hollywood special effects wannabe:

Do not pretend that that these are isolated examples, they are highly common and fill Indian television and media. The Indian public are constantly bombarded by this imagery and look up to this culture. Now, where exactly is the Indian culture in all of this? Where is Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Ayurveda, dharma? Nowhere to be seen. Instead all you can see is imitations of Western culture. Indians at large are not interested in spirituality.[/QUOTE]

Lol? Is this a joke? And where do you think is the spirituality in the Western counterparts? You say nothing of it and yet, Westerners are “constantly bombarded by this imagery and look up to this culture.” In fact, more Americans know more about pop culture stuff than about anything academic related. Several statistics have been done in this area. Again, where is the spirituality in that?

If I wasn’t so paranoid about sexual stuff (no, I did not look at your links because of…you know :D), I too could search up millions of similar things, including porn and what not.

#87

In every single area of Indian society Indians want Western culture. Not only that, they want to look like Western people.

In the West ads for skin bleaching and whitening creams would be decried as racist and be taken down by civil rights organizations, in India they are common:


So obsessed with the West Indians are, that it not an uncommon practice to have white backup dancers in Indian films just to make it more cooler. All of India today is a copy and imitation of the West.

#88

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51666]In every single area of Indian society Indians want Western culture. Not only that, they want to look like Western people.

In the West ads for skin bleaching and whitening creams would be decried as racist and be taken down by civil rights organizations, in India they are common:


So obsessed with the West Indians are, that it not an uncommon practice to have white backup dancers in Indian films just to make it more cooler. All of India today is a copy and imitation of the West.[/QUOTE]

Again, where is the supposed rise in spirituality in the Western world in its own media, which is also heavily bombard with crude and crass material on sex, incest, drugs, porn, and so forth?

You are far to idealistic about the West’s progress. It is failing. I more unrest and more ignorance on a daily basis. I can feel it in the atmosphere, this depressing and patronizing atmosphere.

#89

Nietzsche, we will get to that eventually, but first we need to make it visibly clear here on this forum that you have absolutely no right to criticise the Western people, when Indians themselves wants to be the West and craves for its culture and lifestyle. You have no right to complain about Western behaviour, when India compared to the West lags behind significantly in human and civil rights and human development index.

You are starting to look like a hypocrite and your double standards are far too obvious. For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.

#90

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51670]Nietzsche, we will get to that eventually, but first we need to make it visibly clear here on this forum that you have absolutely no right to criticise the Western people, when Indians themselves wants to be the West and craves for its culture and lifestyle. You have no right to complain about Western behaviour, when India compared to the West lags behind significantly in human and civil rights and human development index.

You are starting to look like a hypocrite and your double standards are far too obvious. For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I have long acknowledged that these problems exist in India. The reason I don’t even mention them is because EVERYONE knows about it. What person hasn’t heard of the wannabe-Hollywood Bollywood film industry? What person doesn’t know that India is besieged with masses of ignorant poor people? What person doesn’t think that Indian people are uncivilized trash that are living hypocrites of their supposedly great religion?

There is one big difference though. While India is emulating the West, it is doing so out of ignorance and the misconception that simply because the West is rich because of its ideology and culture, India must follow in its footsteps to become the same.

The West, on the other hand, is lordly and awfully stuffy about all this. They laugh at the pathetic attempts of the countries to emulate their ways. Everything they do regarding the rest of the world is tinged with scorn and a degree of patronization.

I don’t know about you, but these arrogant and supremacist views are exactly what caused them to eff up the world for the past century or two.

The reason I point out the West’s faults is because they think they are civilized when their very pop-culture, culture, ideology, and etc is in dire contradiction to that.

India on the other hand can make no such real claim; it has nothing to brag about materially and while it is spiritually more advanced, its material condition has nothing to reflecting that in its infrastructure. Most Indians, including myself, are aware of this. However, that does not mean the Indian people are spiritually lacking. It is one thing to do what Westerners do and absorb themselves in this hedonism. Indians, on the other hand, know their limits. For all the ridiculous and factually false claims you make about the entire Indian populace, it still produces some of the highest numbers of engineers and doctors in the world. If Indians were as so drunk and debased as you say they are, something on that scale would never happen. The West, especially, America, can make no similar claim. In fact, their spot in the International education system rankings is DROPPING.

I am a hypocrite? You said “For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.” This means you just admitted the West also has the same faults as India.

Another time? No, lets discuss it now. You certainly seem to have no problem pulling up links from Youtube (:lol:) that depict the supposed debauchery of the WHOLE Indian societal fabric. Why not pull up similar links on the West? If the faults are one and the same, why the hesitation? It should be easy. You c/p’d a link on a wannabe Indian Brittney Spears, so why not post a link on Brittney Spears herself? In fact, I could have easily pulled up a Western counterpart to each and every one of those links you posted. However, I didn’t want to primarily because I don’t look for sentimental material to prove a point. I stick to experiences and objective fact.

You still haven’t told me where in India you visit. This would be the 4th or 5th time you have not answered this question. You seem to visit an area in the Northern India, the poorest region. Why don’t you try visiting the South? You will get a much better reflection of Indian culture there. There, Bollywood isn’t as rampant (they have what I think is called Tollywood) and the film industry there actually makes INTELLIGENT and UNIQUE (shocking isn’t it? :D) movies. The media there is much more toned down, Hindu philosophy and spirituality are on the rise, the poor are in fewer numbers, and the Indians are generally more rich.

Besides, I have every right to exercise my right of free speech and criticize the faults of the West. In conclusion, the faults in the West are more serious because

1). They are arrogant.
2). They rule the world.
3). This combination of exactly arrogance combined with the justification for that arrogance doesn’t make for a very nice world.

EDIT: Sorry for any bad grammar. I got only 4 hours of sleep last night since I had to study for so many tests…

#91

The growing spirituality in the West. Spirituality in the West can be traced to the age of enlightenment with the rise of an intellectual class of Westerners comprising philosophers, poets, writers, scientists and artists, which were also called romantics or transcendentalists. They were characterized by generally a love for nature, criticism of capitalism and religion, upholding secular and humanist values and openess towards integrating Eastern spirituality. This antipode towards the materialism and capitalism later engendered the new age movement, counter-cultural movement, feminist movements and human potential movement. The actual size of this demographic of Westerners is difficult to estimate because it is not an organized group, but rather consists of individuals who share common beliefs and attitudes and consumerist practices.

In terms of common consumerist practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

The size of this demographic in the West alone is estimated to be approx 50 million people. These generally comprise of the more affluent sector of society, and their influence and share of the US consumer market is large. Their influence on US society in general can be gauged by the acceptance of spirituality in the mainstream media, lifestyle and even in academia. Although, spirituality is still not the most popular cultural activity in the West, its influence is growing significantly.

Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability (LOHAS) is a demographic defining a particular market segment related to sustainable living, "green" ecological initiatives, and generally composed of a relatively upscale and well-educated population segment. Researchers have reported a range of sizes of the LOHAS market segment. For example, Worldwatch Institute reported that the LOHAS market segment in the year 2006 was estimated at $300 billion, approximately 30% of the U.S. consumer market;[1][2][3] and, a study by the Natural Marketing Institute showed that in 2007, 40 million Americans were included within the LOHAS demographic.[citation needed] The author Paul H. Ray, who coined the term Cultural Creatives in his book by the same name, explains that "What you're seeing is a demand for products of equal quality that are also virtuous."[4][5] Included in the cultural creative demographic are consumers of New Age goods and services.[1][6]

#92

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51673]The growing spirituality in the West. Spirituality in the West can be traced to the age of enlightenment with the rise of an intellectual class of Westerners comprising philosophers, poets, writers, scientists and artists, which were also called romantics or transcendentalists. They were characterized by generally a love for nature, criticism of capitalism and religion, upholding secular and humanist values and openess towards integrating Eastern spirituality. This antipode towards the materialism and capitalism later engendered the new age movement, counter-cultural movement, feminist movements and human potential movement. The actual size of this demographic of Westerners is difficult to estimate because it is not an organized group, but rather consists of individuals who share common beliefs and attitudes and consumerist practices.

In terms of common consumerist practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

The size of this demographic in the West alone is estimated to be approx 50 million people. These generally comprise of the more affluent sector of society, and their influence and share of the US consumer market is large. Their influence on US society in general can be gauged by the acceptance of spirituality in the mainstream media, lifestyle and even in academia. Although, spirituality is still not the most popular cultural activity in the West, its influence is growing significantly.

Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability (LOHAS) is a demographic defining a particular market segment related to sustainable living, “green” ecological initiatives, and generally composed of a relatively upscale and well-educated population segment. Researchers have reported a range of sizes of the LOHAS market segment. For example, Worldwatch Institute reported that the LOHAS market segment in the year 2006 was estimated at $300 billion, approximately 30% of the U.S. consumer market;[1][2][3] and, a study by the Natural Marketing Institute showed that in 2007, 40 million Americans were included within the LOHAS demographic.[citation needed] The author Paul H. Ray, who coined the term Cultural Creatives in his book by the same name, explains that “What you’re seeing is a demand for products of equal quality that are also virtuous.”[4][5] Included in the cultural creative demographic are consumers of New Age goods and services.[1][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOHAS[/QUOTE]

You know, there is a reason these people were called PHILOSOPHERS. They have nice ideas that shaped individual lives but I have yet to see a philosopher that transforms a Western nation PERMANENTLY based on ideology alone. For example, I have yet to see Nietzsche’s ideas…you get the point. I have yet to see capitalism overthrown. I have yet to see people WANTING capitalism to be destroyed on a large scale and not simply be blaming the government and the elites.

What the heck? How does organic food and hybrid cars reflect a trend in spirituality? If anything, it reflects a pragmatic concern for the environment and one’s well being. For example, the fact that America has the fattest people in the world is the very reason people try out health products and herbal supplements and what not. If anything else, it reflects a “me” orientation rather than “self” orientation.

Ecological conditions != +spirituality. Just so you know, China is making the very same advancements and I don’t see an ounce of spirituality there.

As for New Age stuff, thats nice. I have yet to see a Westerner who actually reforms himself based on this material and doesn’t think he is superior in every way. Look at Indra Deva, for example, and you will know what I mean.

#93

Well, the point here is clear the West has such a movement, India and China does not. India and China are in the process of industralizing and are now like the West once did, polluting the atmosphere, cutting down the forests and raping the Earth of its resources. The air quality in an average Indian and Chinese city is virtually toxic. This is because they lack ecological awareness, which is certainly part and parcel of spirituality, because it reflects what the sociologist quoted above called a demand for equal quality and virtuous products.

Spirituality is very intimately tied in with ecology for it reflects that one is aware of nature and the need to live an ethical lifestyle to maintain balance. Indeed, this is what Vedic teachings also teach. While, India and China are shamelessly polluting the world, the West is striving for clean, greener and healthier lifestyles.

You are really behaving like a silly billy now. You are exaggering the rise of 30% Indians of which even a fewer percentage have comparable living standards to the West and downplaying the 70% Indians living in extreme poverty under rampant corruption, illiteracy and malnutition. And you are downplaying the 20-30% spiritual westerners who are striving for ecological living and mind-body-spirit harmony.

For the record I have visited the following areas of India: Delhi, Jaipur, Mumbai, Goa, Kerela, Hyderabad, Bangalore. I have not found a single place in India where the majority landscape was not poverty, corruption and illiteracy.

You are obviously not facing facts.

Edit: I really don’t know how you can claim Indians are spiritually superior to the West, when they allow skin bleaching ads to be shown and have a corruption rating many times higher that of USA, UK, Japan etc.