Hindutva

Spirituality Religion
#77

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51617]Poverty in India:

The rishawala and chaiwala have no time for the luxury of Yoga and meditation, they struggle to make ends meet in their daily life. They cannot even feed and house themselves adequately. Yes, Yoga and meditation is a luxury for those who can afford it. This is why Yoga has taken off in the West even before it retook of in India recently with Baba Ramdev and it is a massive industry in the West with a $6 billion dollar turnover in America alone:

In America Yoga is practiced by the wealthy: Median Household Income: $82,200, 44% of yogis have household incomes of $75,000 or more; 24% have more than $100,000: http://www.yogabusinessacademy.com/blog/2011/01/31/15-things-you-did-not-know-about-yoga-industry/

It is no coincidence that Yoga was developed by a country that was the richest country on this planet right up until the 18th century. Why? Because of what I said: poor countries cannot afford and appreciate the luxury of Yoga and meditation. Rich countries can. Just as you seem to be in denial about how poor Indians are downplaying them, likewise you seem to be downplaying the rise of spiritual Westerners. You are quick to the point out the rise of a few wealthy Indians, but downplay the rise of a few spiritual Westerners. Your double standards are painfully clear.[/QUOTE]

I would tend to agree with SD on some of the points he has made. There are several very very wealthy people in India, but there are also millions below the poverty line. However, SD overlooks the fact that the average income has climbed. The middle and lower middle class earn much more than their parents and grandparents did and have higher disposable incomes. This is not to deny that the poverty levels of the poor have remained as bad as before- but there is more awareness now. There are also several among the wealthy who recognise this fact and have turned their efforts towards improving the lot of these people. I know youngsters who have after passing out from IIM, Ahmedabad (THE B school in India) , who have chosen to work in relatively low paying jobs in NGOs which work for the less privileged. The unfortunate reality is that the political system in India , is still highly corrupt, and has not found the will to do anything for the poor, beyond lip service. In fact , I would suspect that they have a vested interest in keeping them poor so that they get easy votes during elections by thowing a few rupees. But things are improving- as awareness grows -I put a huge amount of faith in the youth of India for they are already showing that they are capable of independent thought and it is my hope that they will do for the country ,what thier parents could not.

And I see hope in their eyes. and as long as Hope subsists, so does the possibility of success.:stuck_out_tongue:

#78

And SD, while I agree with what you have stated about yoga being practiced by the wealthy, I have seen a change in that. The studio where I got my teacher training has a policy that if you cannot afford to pay, pay whatever you can or pay nothing. During our training, they really stressed the importance of Karma yoga. Most of those I graduated with are very giving of their time with regards to yoga. As a teacher, I have offered to many students who expressed their concern about paying, that I would forgo my pay to allow them to take my class. Yoga should be available to all. And I do see more and more studio’s offering free classes, or at least reduced, to those who cannot pay. I have gained from my students as much as I hope they’ve gained from me, so I look at it as a way to give back.

For better or worse, the West have become stewards of Yoga. It is up to them to uphold the standards. I see less emphasis on ONLY the asana and more on the Whole of Yoga. I see this here and it will spread in time to the west and east coasts.

Perhaps, down the road, there will be a beautiful blending of east and west. I think we are closer than imagined. The current economic crisis showed the immense flaws in capitalism (greed) and there is a shift toward questioning which will only retune or rethink our capitalistic society. As we become less capitalistic we become more spiritual.

#79

I will respond to your posts in due time.

The West will never be truly spiritual as long as chauvinism exists. Their ignorance and bigotry exists in the deepest levels of their subconscious. You don’t have to look much further than the people on this forum who spout “Yoga is older than Hinduism.”

#80

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;51615]First off, I am not a Christian!

Secondly, SD…are you ready for this? I agree with you! Yes, it is true! 100% I just heard lightning strike! lol

Third, I love our President! Sorry Thomas! BTW, deficits have plummeted under Republicans. And Mr. Obama was left a mess to deal with.

Fourth, I do understand about bigotry in this country. But we have come such a long way recently. Where I live, Cincinnati Ohio, I am seeing less and less racism and more compassion and understanding. I am noticing and sensing more and more a subtle, but constant change spiritually. My yogini’s have notcied it too. We’ve had some great discussions about how differently this time feels. Like we are on the verge of something great. (speaking more globally here) And Nietzsche, where I live I really don’t see bias against Indians/Hindu’s. What I see is respect. It is unfortunate you have not had this experience. Perhaps it is the yoga and it’s community that I’ve surrounded myself with that leads me to think this way. I don’t know. But, take it from someone who grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, we have made great strides. We aren’t there yet, but I have faith we’ll get there. But then again, as SD knows, I’m a 1/2 full cup sort of gal. Suits me fine.[/QUOTE]

You are a Christian in that you share many of their biases. (I paraphrase) “Oh hoW HORRIBLE! Woman are treated badly in Hinduism because of Hinduism! The violent and barbaric teachings in the Bible are really just parables! The artificial insertions of caste system bigotry are representative of Hinduism!”

I would hazard a guess and say that the people you associate with have been civilized by the influence of Yoga. :wink:

What is truly unfortunate is that the majority of Americans have not felt this influence. Most of America is a depressing cesspool of Western chauvinism and ignorance.

I don’t understand how you all think spirituality can flourish alongside such antithetical ideals.

#81

I look forward to your response.

I agree with you the West will not be truily spiritual as long chauvanism and ignorance exists, the West still has a long way to go before it reaches the levels India had reached in the past. But India has an even longer way to go before it reaches the levels it had reached in the past. Again, the stats are not lying India lags behind America significantly in all areas of development: civil and human rights, human development index, infrastructure, regulation, science and research.

Again, I will point out I have never had to get off a moving bus in the UK. In fact, here we press a bell, the bus driver stops, we say thank you and then get off our spot. I have never faced once in my entire life a girl getting harrassed on the bus. I have never faced cripples lying on the street and people walking past them as if they are not there. I have never seen tourists here get hassled on the streets. I have never been asked for a bribe and getting through airport customs is smoothe sailing.

In the words of the wise man Jesus: do not try to remove the splinter from your neighbours eye, when you have a beam in your own. You are making yourself look very silly and immature by condemning the West for its ignorance and chauvanism, when India suffers far worse from these problems. Like I said, I have lived both in the West and in India, and although India is my motherland, it is clear to any rational and sensible person the West is more civilised.

#82

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51658]I look forward to your response.

I agree with you the West will not be truily spiritual as long chauvanism and ignorance exists, the West still has a long way to go before it reaches the levels India had reached in the past. But India has an even longer way to go before it reaches the levels it had reached in the past. Again, the stats are not lying India lags behind America significantly in all areas of development: civil and human rights, human development index, infrastructure, regulation, science and research.

Again, I will point out I have never had to get off a moving bus in the UK. In fact, here we press a bell, the bus driver stops, we say thank you and then get off our spot. I have never faced once in my entire life a girl getting harrassed on the bus. I have never faced cripples lying on the street and people walking past them as if they are not there. I have never seen tourists here get hassled on the streets. I have never been asked for a bribe and getting through airport customs is smoothe sailing.

In the words of the wise man Jesus: do not try to remove the splinter from your neighbours eye, when you have a beam in your own. You are making yourself look very silly and immature by condemning the West for its ignorance and chauvanism, when India suffers far worse from these problems. Like I said, I have lived both in the West and in India, and although India is my motherland, it is clear to any rational and sensible person the West is more civilised.[/QUOTE]

…Assuming America will survive by then and not politically and economically fracture. From what I can see, the signs aren’t good at all. :wink:

Yes, I do not deny this.

Funny thing about buses in “civilized” countries. When my family and I were vacationing in London, my parents got into an argument (furious whisper type) on the best spot to get off of. The tour guide overheard our argument and walked to the part of the bus we were on. What he did next was shocking; he yelled at us for not listening properly, in fact yelled into the microphone so that the whole bus and the people on the adjacent streets could hear. It was honestly the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to me or my family in our entire lives.

Another situation was when during the morning of the day we were meant to leave London, the manager of the hotel told us to get some breakfast, saying that the workers in the breakfast area would let us in on his command even though there was still a 30 minute more wait for the area to open. We went to the breakfast area and told the white lady there what the manager had told us. She refused to let us in despite the fact that there were two or three (white) families already eating in the area.

Additionally, a hotel employee told us that the hotel could book a taxi for us on the first day of our arrival. Now, we are not the most cognizant of tourists and the commission factor slipped out of our minds since

1). We were busy just trying to take in the city.
2). They never told us.

Imagine our infuriation when the taxi driver asked for double the money so he could go back and pay the hotel the commission.

In France, we were waiting for a bus to take us back to our hotel. It was beginning to get dark and we were tired from a day full of touring and so forth. We confirmed the timings, route number, and the location of the stop so we would get picked up by the right bus. The bus arrived, we got on, and patiently waited. As time drew on, we realized that the bus was actually taking us [I]further[/I] away from the hotel and into the heart of Paris. We checked the routes in the brochure, saw that everything was part of the route and patiently waited again. However, more and more people began to get off and we were beginning to get worried. When the last person got off the bus, we told the driver about our predicament and asked him whether he could drop us to a location closer to our hotel. He simply said “No, it is getting late and I have to go. Get out” and kicked us out at a stop almost twice as far as we were previously. The walk was long and hard and my parents, who have back and leg problems, had to sit out the next day.

Uhm, the crippled on the streets are ignored here as well. The impoverished and the destitute are ignored everywhere, in every city. They are not ignored out of malice but rather out of a desire to not associate oneself with such poignant and painful events. This is especially true in developing countries.

Lol, I have seen girls here get harassed everywhere and all the time here SD. In India, all the people I have seen are modest. You honestly sound like you take vacations in Bihar or some other poor Northern state. You still haven’t answered WHERE you visit. I seriously want to know now. In Hyderabad, I have never seen anything similar to what you describe.

My family has never been asked for a bribe in any airport in India. Again, what place do you visit? You seem awfully unwilling to tell me this crucial factor.

India suffers far worse than the West in ignorance and chauvinism? What are you saying? Do you really think any India would think they are materially superior to the West? The idea is laughable, even for me. Besides, I have never seen an Indian from India say anything like this. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of Americans scorn other nations, religions, and cultures while being confident about theirs.

#83

You are a very silly young man Nietzsche I must say! You do come up with some wild things!

Regarding the paraphrasing:

The reason for me posting this is to shed light on the plight of women. It is not just women in India, it is women across the globe. Another reason for posting this is to point out that India and Hinduism does indeed have a history of violence. Violence against women. This is contrary to what Surya Deva has written. The women of India have fought long and hard for their independence and should be commended and respected by both other cultures and their Hindu culture.

This is what I actually wrote. Your paraphrasing took it out of context. I was trying to show SD that India/HInduism does have some violence in their history.

The parable thing, well, it’s a dead horse in the religious thread. Been there done that, tried to explain but to no avail. 2 camps, 2 interpretations.

And yes, I’d like to think that yoga has “enlightened” some people I associate with. Especially my students! Civilized is not the correct word and was an unnecessary comment.

Again, I find it sad that you’ve experienced such chauvinism and ignorance in the US.

#84

Another irony that needs to be exposed that although you are condemning Western culture, it is blatantly clear Indians want Western culture. If we look at the everyday Indian media and entertainment industry, it is clear to see just how much Indians want Western culture:

Western sex:


Britney spears wannabe:

Cheeky girl, pole dancer wananbe:

Western youth and college culture:


Western hip hop and music:

English song wannabe:

Hollywood special effects wannabe:

Do not pretend that that these are isolated examples, they are highly common and fill Indian television and media. The Indian public are constantly bombarded by this imagery and look up to this culture. Now, where exactly is the Indian culture in all of this? Where is Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Ayurveda, dharma? Nowhere to be seen. Instead all you can see is imitations of Western culture. Indians at large are not interested in spirituality.

#85

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;51661]You are a very silly young man Nietzsche I must say! You do come up with some wild things!

Regarding the paraphrasing:

This is what I actually wrote. Your paraphrasing took it out of context. I was trying to show SD that India/HInduism does have some violence in their history.

The parable thing, well, it’s a dead horse in the religious thread. Been there done that, tried to explain but to no avail. 2 camps, 2 interpretations.

And yes, I’d like to think that yoga has “enlightened” some people I associate with. Especially my students! Civilized is not the correct word and was an unnecessary comment.

Again, I find it sad that you’ve experienced such chauvinism and ignorance in the US.[/QUOTE]

Lol. So wrong. It isn’t “HINDUISM” silly but rather INDIAN SOCIETY. HOW HARD IS THAT TO GRASP?

You are basically saying the same thing as what I “paraphrased.”

No, "enlightened " is not the correct word. No one is enlightened, especially Westerners with their materialism and so forth.

They are “civilized” in the sense that they have outgrown their discriminatory views of “inferior” cultures, religions, and nations (a natural viewpoint that comes out of being raised in the West) and learned to see the inner qualities, so to speak.

I too find it sad that I have been subjected to the most common temperamental deficiencies in the U.S.

#86

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51662]Another irony that needs to be exposed that although you are condemning Western culture, it is blatantly clear Indians want Western culture. If we look at the everyday Indian media and entertainment industry, it is clear to see just how much Indians want Western culture:

Western sex:


Britney spears wannabe:

Cheeky girl, pole dancer wananbe:

Western youth and college culture:


Western hip hop and music:

English song wannabe:

Hollywood special effects wannabe:

Do not pretend that that these are isolated examples, they are highly common and fill Indian television and media. The Indian public are constantly bombarded by this imagery and look up to this culture. Now, where exactly is the Indian culture in all of this? Where is Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Ayurveda, dharma? Nowhere to be seen. Instead all you can see is imitations of Western culture. Indians at large are not interested in spirituality.[/QUOTE]

Lol? Is this a joke? And where do you think is the spirituality in the Western counterparts? You say nothing of it and yet, Westerners are “constantly bombarded by this imagery and look up to this culture.” In fact, more Americans know more about pop culture stuff than about anything academic related. Several statistics have been done in this area. Again, where is the spirituality in that?

If I wasn’t so paranoid about sexual stuff (no, I did not look at your links because of…you know :D), I too could search up millions of similar things, including porn and what not.

#87

In every single area of Indian society Indians want Western culture. Not only that, they want to look like Western people.

In the West ads for skin bleaching and whitening creams would be decried as racist and be taken down by civil rights organizations, in India they are common:


So obsessed with the West Indians are, that it not an uncommon practice to have white backup dancers in Indian films just to make it more cooler. All of India today is a copy and imitation of the West.

#88

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51666]In every single area of Indian society Indians want Western culture. Not only that, they want to look like Western people.

In the West ads for skin bleaching and whitening creams would be decried as racist and be taken down by civil rights organizations, in India they are common:


So obsessed with the West Indians are, that it not an uncommon practice to have white backup dancers in Indian films just to make it more cooler. All of India today is a copy and imitation of the West.[/QUOTE]

Again, where is the supposed rise in spirituality in the Western world in its own media, which is also heavily bombard with crude and crass material on sex, incest, drugs, porn, and so forth?

You are far to idealistic about the West’s progress. It is failing. I more unrest and more ignorance on a daily basis. I can feel it in the atmosphere, this depressing and patronizing atmosphere.

#89

Nietzsche, we will get to that eventually, but first we need to make it visibly clear here on this forum that you have absolutely no right to criticise the Western people, when Indians themselves wants to be the West and craves for its culture and lifestyle. You have no right to complain about Western behaviour, when India compared to the West lags behind significantly in human and civil rights and human development index.

You are starting to look like a hypocrite and your double standards are far too obvious. For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.

#90

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51670]Nietzsche, we will get to that eventually, but first we need to make it visibly clear here on this forum that you have absolutely no right to criticise the Western people, when Indians themselves wants to be the West and craves for its culture and lifestyle. You have no right to complain about Western behaviour, when India compared to the West lags behind significantly in human and civil rights and human development index.

You are starting to look like a hypocrite and your double standards are far too obvious. For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I have long acknowledged that these problems exist in India. The reason I don’t even mention them is because EVERYONE knows about it. What person hasn’t heard of the wannabe-Hollywood Bollywood film industry? What person doesn’t know that India is besieged with masses of ignorant poor people? What person doesn’t think that Indian people are uncivilized trash that are living hypocrites of their supposedly great religion?

There is one big difference though. While India is emulating the West, it is doing so out of ignorance and the misconception that simply because the West is rich because of its ideology and culture, India must follow in its footsteps to become the same.

The West, on the other hand, is lordly and awfully stuffy about all this. They laugh at the pathetic attempts of the countries to emulate their ways. Everything they do regarding the rest of the world is tinged with scorn and a degree of patronization.

I don’t know about you, but these arrogant and supremacist views are exactly what caused them to eff up the world for the past century or two.

The reason I point out the West’s faults is because they think they are civilized when their very pop-culture, culture, ideology, and etc is in dire contradiction to that.

India on the other hand can make no such real claim; it has nothing to brag about materially and while it is spiritually more advanced, its material condition has nothing to reflecting that in its infrastructure. Most Indians, including myself, are aware of this. However, that does not mean the Indian people are spiritually lacking. It is one thing to do what Westerners do and absorb themselves in this hedonism. Indians, on the other hand, know their limits. For all the ridiculous and factually false claims you make about the entire Indian populace, it still produces some of the highest numbers of engineers and doctors in the world. If Indians were as so drunk and debased as you say they are, something on that scale would never happen. The West, especially, America, can make no similar claim. In fact, their spot in the International education system rankings is DROPPING.

I am a hypocrite? You said “For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.” This means you just admitted the West also has the same faults as India.

Another time? No, lets discuss it now. You certainly seem to have no problem pulling up links from Youtube (:lol:) that depict the supposed debauchery of the WHOLE Indian societal fabric. Why not pull up similar links on the West? If the faults are one and the same, why the hesitation? It should be easy. You c/p’d a link on a wannabe Indian Brittney Spears, so why not post a link on Brittney Spears herself? In fact, I could have easily pulled up a Western counterpart to each and every one of those links you posted. However, I didn’t want to primarily because I don’t look for sentimental material to prove a point. I stick to experiences and objective fact.

You still haven’t told me where in India you visit. This would be the 4th or 5th time you have not answered this question. You seem to visit an area in the Northern India, the poorest region. Why don’t you try visiting the South? You will get a much better reflection of Indian culture there. There, Bollywood isn’t as rampant (they have what I think is called Tollywood) and the film industry there actually makes INTELLIGENT and UNIQUE (shocking isn’t it? :D) movies. The media there is much more toned down, Hindu philosophy and spirituality are on the rise, the poor are in fewer numbers, and the Indians are generally more rich.

Besides, I have every right to exercise my right of free speech and criticize the faults of the West. In conclusion, the faults in the West are more serious because

1). They are arrogant.
2). They rule the world.
3). This combination of exactly arrogance combined with the justification for that arrogance doesn’t make for a very nice world.

EDIT: Sorry for any bad grammar. I got only 4 hours of sleep last night since I had to study for so many tests…

#91

The growing spirituality in the West. Spirituality in the West can be traced to the age of enlightenment with the rise of an intellectual class of Westerners comprising philosophers, poets, writers, scientists and artists, which were also called romantics or transcendentalists. They were characterized by generally a love for nature, criticism of capitalism and religion, upholding secular and humanist values and openess towards integrating Eastern spirituality. This antipode towards the materialism and capitalism later engendered the new age movement, counter-cultural movement, feminist movements and human potential movement. The actual size of this demographic of Westerners is difficult to estimate because it is not an organized group, but rather consists of individuals who share common beliefs and attitudes and consumerist practices.

In terms of common consumerist practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

The size of this demographic in the West alone is estimated to be approx 50 million people. These generally comprise of the more affluent sector of society, and their influence and share of the US consumer market is large. Their influence on US society in general can be gauged by the acceptance of spirituality in the mainstream media, lifestyle and even in academia. Although, spirituality is still not the most popular cultural activity in the West, its influence is growing significantly.

Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability (LOHAS) is a demographic defining a particular market segment related to sustainable living, "green" ecological initiatives, and generally composed of a relatively upscale and well-educated population segment. Researchers have reported a range of sizes of the LOHAS market segment. For example, Worldwatch Institute reported that the LOHAS market segment in the year 2006 was estimated at $300 billion, approximately 30% of the U.S. consumer market;[1][2][3] and, a study by the Natural Marketing Institute showed that in 2007, 40 million Americans were included within the LOHAS demographic.[citation needed] The author Paul H. Ray, who coined the term Cultural Creatives in his book by the same name, explains that "What you're seeing is a demand for products of equal quality that are also virtuous."[4][5] Included in the cultural creative demographic are consumers of New Age goods and services.[1][6]

#92

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51673]The growing spirituality in the West. Spirituality in the West can be traced to the age of enlightenment with the rise of an intellectual class of Westerners comprising philosophers, poets, writers, scientists and artists, which were also called romantics or transcendentalists. They were characterized by generally a love for nature, criticism of capitalism and religion, upholding secular and humanist values and openess towards integrating Eastern spirituality. This antipode towards the materialism and capitalism later engendered the new age movement, counter-cultural movement, feminist movements and human potential movement. The actual size of this demographic of Westerners is difficult to estimate because it is not an organized group, but rather consists of individuals who share common beliefs and attitudes and consumerist practices.

In terms of common consumerist practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

The size of this demographic in the West alone is estimated to be approx 50 million people. These generally comprise of the more affluent sector of society, and their influence and share of the US consumer market is large. Their influence on US society in general can be gauged by the acceptance of spirituality in the mainstream media, lifestyle and even in academia. Although, spirituality is still not the most popular cultural activity in the West, its influence is growing significantly.

Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability (LOHAS) is a demographic defining a particular market segment related to sustainable living, “green” ecological initiatives, and generally composed of a relatively upscale and well-educated population segment. Researchers have reported a range of sizes of the LOHAS market segment. For example, Worldwatch Institute reported that the LOHAS market segment in the year 2006 was estimated at $300 billion, approximately 30% of the U.S. consumer market;[1][2][3] and, a study by the Natural Marketing Institute showed that in 2007, 40 million Americans were included within the LOHAS demographic.[citation needed] The author Paul H. Ray, who coined the term Cultural Creatives in his book by the same name, explains that “What you’re seeing is a demand for products of equal quality that are also virtuous.”[4][5] Included in the cultural creative demographic are consumers of New Age goods and services.[1][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOHAS[/QUOTE]

You know, there is a reason these people were called PHILOSOPHERS. They have nice ideas that shaped individual lives but I have yet to see a philosopher that transforms a Western nation PERMANENTLY based on ideology alone. For example, I have yet to see Nietzsche’s ideas…you get the point. I have yet to see capitalism overthrown. I have yet to see people WANTING capitalism to be destroyed on a large scale and not simply be blaming the government and the elites.

What the heck? How does organic food and hybrid cars reflect a trend in spirituality? If anything, it reflects a pragmatic concern for the environment and one’s well being. For example, the fact that America has the fattest people in the world is the very reason people try out health products and herbal supplements and what not. If anything else, it reflects a “me” orientation rather than “self” orientation.

Ecological conditions != +spirituality. Just so you know, China is making the very same advancements and I don’t see an ounce of spirituality there.

As for New Age stuff, thats nice. I have yet to see a Westerner who actually reforms himself based on this material and doesn’t think he is superior in every way. Look at Indra Deva, for example, and you will know what I mean.

#93

Well, the point here is clear the West has such a movement, India and China does not. India and China are in the process of industralizing and are now like the West once did, polluting the atmosphere, cutting down the forests and raping the Earth of its resources. The air quality in an average Indian and Chinese city is virtually toxic. This is because they lack ecological awareness, which is certainly part and parcel of spirituality, because it reflects what the sociologist quoted above called a demand for equal quality and virtuous products.

Spirituality is very intimately tied in with ecology for it reflects that one is aware of nature and the need to live an ethical lifestyle to maintain balance. Indeed, this is what Vedic teachings also teach. While, India and China are shamelessly polluting the world, the West is striving for clean, greener and healthier lifestyles.

You are really behaving like a silly billy now. You are exaggering the rise of 30% Indians of which even a fewer percentage have comparable living standards to the West and downplaying the 70% Indians living in extreme poverty under rampant corruption, illiteracy and malnutition. And you are downplaying the 20-30% spiritual westerners who are striving for ecological living and mind-body-spirit harmony.

For the record I have visited the following areas of India: Delhi, Jaipur, Mumbai, Goa, Kerela, Hyderabad, Bangalore. I have not found a single place in India where the majority landscape was not poverty, corruption and illiteracy.

You are obviously not facing facts.

Edit: I really don’t know how you can claim Indians are spiritually superior to the West, when they allow skin bleaching ads to be shown and have a corruption rating many times higher that of USA, UK, Japan etc.

#94

Nietzsche,

If you so hate the west and America in particular, do you plan on moving back to India?

And one final thought for you to ponder. When you surround yourself with negativity, that is all you receive. Its like with raising children, I found it better to use positive reinforcement with our children than negative/punishment. When you surround yourself with a positive environment and think in those terms, even the negative can be looked at as something positive. Much healthier then having a more “victim-like” mentality.

#95

Normally, Lotusgirl I would dismiss the argument of why do you stay in the West, if you are so critical of it as a logical fallacy. Surely, one can be critical of the West and still remain in the West. But in the case of Neitzsche, his gripe does not actually appear to be with Western philosophy and culture i.e.,the conceptual part, but with Western people itself. He seems to find no redeeming value of Western people at all, and ironically the Indian people he is trumpeting, want to be like Western people, even look like them. So it is not a fallacy to ask Neitzsche what the heck is he doing living in the West for 11 years if he hates Western people so much and considers himself a constant victim of ignorance and chauvanism?

Another ironic thing is Neitzsche has faced so many bad experiences with Western people, when most Indians I know have not actually faced bad experiences with Western people and integrated very well into Western culture. On the other hand, he claims the common experiences foreingers have in India of being hassled by touts on the streets, Western women travellers having to cover up to avoid sexual advances, and having to bribe authorities at airports etc are not common.

I have seen a very different world to Neitzsche. This is either because it all subjective and we just happened to have had different experiences, or because Neitzsche is biassed towards seeing the worst in the West and the best in India. I would be inclined to thinking it is the latter, because I know my experiences are more common than Neitzsche’s. It sounds like Neitzsche has a bit of a chip on his shoulder.

#96

Indians, on the other hand, know their limits. For all the ridiculous and factually false claims you make about the entire Indian populace, it still produces some of the highest numbers of engineers and doctors in the world. If Indians were as so drunk and debased as you say they are, something on that scale would never happen. The West, especially, America, can make no similar claim. In fact, their spot in the International education system rankings is DROPPING.

I find this funny. You just said that having ecological awareness and ethical consumerist practices have nothing to do with spirituality, but you think producing an army of doctors and engineers is? India produces more doctors and engineers because it has a bigger population and a strong work ethic because it is poor. It is the same in China. It was the same in the West at the dawn of capitalism, it has a strong work ethic and everybody wanted to be an engineer or doctor. Later on, these values fell as Western society started to rise up against modernism. India is going through a similar growth phase.

By the way India does not have better education than the West. If this was true, why do wealthy Indians go abroad to study? India lacks a single world-class university. Look at the global ranking of universities, Indian universities are barely to be seen anywhere on them.

I am having to point out all these anti-India facts because of the silly exaggerations you are making. You are inviting anti-India material. Now, is that not ironic, considering I am Indian myself and love India to bits.

The West, on the other hand, is lordly and awfully stuffy about all this. They laugh at the pathetic attempts of the countries to emulate their ways. Everything they do regarding the rest of the world is tinged with scorn and a degree of patronization.

I mean come on, look at the above youtube clips they are indeed laughable to a Westerner. They are trying so hard to be like the West. Indian would get a lot more respect in the world if it did not try so hard to be like the West, but retained its Indianess. The Chinese, for example, produce martial arts epics and they are hugely appreciated and respected around the world. India, too has a vast culture of Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Natya etc, why does it not represent that? There is a huge market for Yoga in the world, which Indians are not tapping - why - because they don’t really care about spirituality as I have said over and over again - they crave Western culture. But this is exactly what makes them laughable.

I am a hypocrite? You said “For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.” This means you just admitted the West also has the same faults as India.

Nope, what I am showing here that if you criticise the West for something, a similar fault can be found in India. So why are you engaging in a pointless mudslinging contest by slinging mud at the West, when the West can sling the same kind of mud back at you?
You should stop pretending that India is any better than the West. For better or worse, India is following in the footsteps of the West today. The West is not following India.

Why not pull up similar links on the West?

Because we already know that stuff exists in the West because obviously it has to, for the Indian one to be an imitation. I never claimed the West was a bastion of virtue, it is an incredibly debauched place. But India is no less debauched, and by many indices much more debauched. However, there is a rising class of spiritual Westerners, who are affluent and influencial in all spheres of Western society. They are the product of disenchantment with modernism, materialism and capitalism, and they are craving spirituality and a spiritual world.

Where there is demand, there is supply. In India, there is little to no demand for spirituality - hence little supply in terms of spirituality. In the West there is demand for spirituality - hence a supply of spirituality. Even if we look at mainstream movies, such as Julia Roberts recent spiritual movie, “Eat, Pray, Love” that managed to be a significant success in the West. Not in India. In India, Western imports that have been succesfull have been Spiderman 1 and 2, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter - enough said, yes?

Where is the Indian equivalent of the Secret, What the bleep do we know, Celestine prophecies, The peaceful warrior, the alchemist, what dreams may come?

Why is almost all Yoga research and parapsychological research done in the West?

Why is Yoga such a massive industry in the West, whereas back home only in the last few years has it been revived?

The answer is resoundingly clear: The West has demand for spirituality. India does not. Therefore Hinduism cannot take off in India, but it will take off in the West. The new-age movement in the West is lacking the scientific and sacred rigour of Hinduism, but it is Hinduism in the making. In order to catalyse its development Hindus like you and me need to join it and and expose it to the pure Vedic Hinduism. Recently, I was in the city centre with my friend and I bumped into this man who was new-age and spiritual, without me saying anything he surprised me when he told us, “I have looked all kinds of traditions of spirituality, and the Vedic tradition is the best, most scientific, most comprehensive and precise” My mate then said, “Don’t get my friend started on the Vedic tradition” in humour and he said rather seriously, “No, I want him to get started, because the Vedic stuff needs to be heard by all”

Do your dharma as a Hindu and make the whole world Aryan just as our Risis wanted.