Hindutva

Spirituality Religion
#90

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51670]Nietzsche, we will get to that eventually, but first we need to make it visibly clear here on this forum that you have absolutely no right to criticise the Western people, when Indians themselves wants to be the West and craves for its culture and lifestyle. You have no right to complain about Western behaviour, when India compared to the West lags behind significantly in human and civil rights and human development index.

You are starting to look like a hypocrite and your double standards are far too obvious. For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I have long acknowledged that these problems exist in India. The reason I don’t even mention them is because EVERYONE knows about it. What person hasn’t heard of the wannabe-Hollywood Bollywood film industry? What person doesn’t know that India is besieged with masses of ignorant poor people? What person doesn’t think that Indian people are uncivilized trash that are living hypocrites of their supposedly great religion?

There is one big difference though. While India is emulating the West, it is doing so out of ignorance and the misconception that simply because the West is rich because of its ideology and culture, India must follow in its footsteps to become the same.

The West, on the other hand, is lordly and awfully stuffy about all this. They laugh at the pathetic attempts of the countries to emulate their ways. Everything they do regarding the rest of the world is tinged with scorn and a degree of patronization.

I don’t know about you, but these arrogant and supremacist views are exactly what caused them to eff up the world for the past century or two.

The reason I point out the West’s faults is because they think they are civilized when their very pop-culture, culture, ideology, and etc is in dire contradiction to that.

India on the other hand can make no such real claim; it has nothing to brag about materially and while it is spiritually more advanced, its material condition has nothing to reflecting that in its infrastructure. Most Indians, including myself, are aware of this. However, that does not mean the Indian people are spiritually lacking. It is one thing to do what Westerners do and absorb themselves in this hedonism. Indians, on the other hand, know their limits. For all the ridiculous and factually false claims you make about the entire Indian populace, it still produces some of the highest numbers of engineers and doctors in the world. If Indians were as so drunk and debased as you say they are, something on that scale would never happen. The West, especially, America, can make no similar claim. In fact, their spot in the International education system rankings is DROPPING.

I am a hypocrite? You said “For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.” This means you just admitted the West also has the same faults as India.

Another time? No, lets discuss it now. You certainly seem to have no problem pulling up links from Youtube (:lol:) that depict the supposed debauchery of the WHOLE Indian societal fabric. Why not pull up similar links on the West? If the faults are one and the same, why the hesitation? It should be easy. You c/p’d a link on a wannabe Indian Brittney Spears, so why not post a link on Brittney Spears herself? In fact, I could have easily pulled up a Western counterpart to each and every one of those links you posted. However, I didn’t want to primarily because I don’t look for sentimental material to prove a point. I stick to experiences and objective fact.

You still haven’t told me where in India you visit. This would be the 4th or 5th time you have not answered this question. You seem to visit an area in the Northern India, the poorest region. Why don’t you try visiting the South? You will get a much better reflection of Indian culture there. There, Bollywood isn’t as rampant (they have what I think is called Tollywood) and the film industry there actually makes INTELLIGENT and UNIQUE (shocking isn’t it? :D) movies. The media there is much more toned down, Hindu philosophy and spirituality are on the rise, the poor are in fewer numbers, and the Indians are generally more rich.

Besides, I have every right to exercise my right of free speech and criticize the faults of the West. In conclusion, the faults in the West are more serious because

1). They are arrogant.
2). They rule the world.
3). This combination of exactly arrogance combined with the justification for that arrogance doesn’t make for a very nice world.

EDIT: Sorry for any bad grammar. I got only 4 hours of sleep last night since I had to study for so many tests…

#91

The growing spirituality in the West. Spirituality in the West can be traced to the age of enlightenment with the rise of an intellectual class of Westerners comprising philosophers, poets, writers, scientists and artists, which were also called romantics or transcendentalists. They were characterized by generally a love for nature, criticism of capitalism and religion, upholding secular and humanist values and openess towards integrating Eastern spirituality. This antipode towards the materialism and capitalism later engendered the new age movement, counter-cultural movement, feminist movements and human potential movement. The actual size of this demographic of Westerners is difficult to estimate because it is not an organized group, but rather consists of individuals who share common beliefs and attitudes and consumerist practices.

In terms of common consumerist practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

The size of this demographic in the West alone is estimated to be approx 50 million people. These generally comprise of the more affluent sector of society, and their influence and share of the US consumer market is large. Their influence on US society in general can be gauged by the acceptance of spirituality in the mainstream media, lifestyle and even in academia. Although, spirituality is still not the most popular cultural activity in the West, its influence is growing significantly.

Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability (LOHAS) is a demographic defining a particular market segment related to sustainable living, "green" ecological initiatives, and generally composed of a relatively upscale and well-educated population segment. Researchers have reported a range of sizes of the LOHAS market segment. For example, Worldwatch Institute reported that the LOHAS market segment in the year 2006 was estimated at $300 billion, approximately 30% of the U.S. consumer market;[1][2][3] and, a study by the Natural Marketing Institute showed that in 2007, 40 million Americans were included within the LOHAS demographic.[citation needed] The author Paul H. Ray, who coined the term Cultural Creatives in his book by the same name, explains that "What you're seeing is a demand for products of equal quality that are also virtuous."[4][5] Included in the cultural creative demographic are consumers of New Age goods and services.[1][6]

#92

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51673]The growing spirituality in the West. Spirituality in the West can be traced to the age of enlightenment with the rise of an intellectual class of Westerners comprising philosophers, poets, writers, scientists and artists, which were also called romantics or transcendentalists. They were characterized by generally a love for nature, criticism of capitalism and religion, upholding secular and humanist values and openess towards integrating Eastern spirituality. This antipode towards the materialism and capitalism later engendered the new age movement, counter-cultural movement, feminist movements and human potential movement. The actual size of this demographic of Westerners is difficult to estimate because it is not an organized group, but rather consists of individuals who share common beliefs and attitudes and consumerist practices.

In terms of common consumerist practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

The size of this demographic in the West alone is estimated to be approx 50 million people. These generally comprise of the more affluent sector of society, and their influence and share of the US consumer market is large. Their influence on US society in general can be gauged by the acceptance of spirituality in the mainstream media, lifestyle and even in academia. Although, spirituality is still not the most popular cultural activity in the West, its influence is growing significantly.

Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability (LOHAS) is a demographic defining a particular market segment related to sustainable living, “green” ecological initiatives, and generally composed of a relatively upscale and well-educated population segment. Researchers have reported a range of sizes of the LOHAS market segment. For example, Worldwatch Institute reported that the LOHAS market segment in the year 2006 was estimated at $300 billion, approximately 30% of the U.S. consumer market;[1][2][3] and, a study by the Natural Marketing Institute showed that in 2007, 40 million Americans were included within the LOHAS demographic.[citation needed] The author Paul H. Ray, who coined the term Cultural Creatives in his book by the same name, explains that “What you’re seeing is a demand for products of equal quality that are also virtuous.”[4][5] Included in the cultural creative demographic are consumers of New Age goods and services.[1][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOHAS[/QUOTE]

You know, there is a reason these people were called PHILOSOPHERS. They have nice ideas that shaped individual lives but I have yet to see a philosopher that transforms a Western nation PERMANENTLY based on ideology alone. For example, I have yet to see Nietzsche’s ideas…you get the point. I have yet to see capitalism overthrown. I have yet to see people WANTING capitalism to be destroyed on a large scale and not simply be blaming the government and the elites.

What the heck? How does organic food and hybrid cars reflect a trend in spirituality? If anything, it reflects a pragmatic concern for the environment and one’s well being. For example, the fact that America has the fattest people in the world is the very reason people try out health products and herbal supplements and what not. If anything else, it reflects a “me” orientation rather than “self” orientation.

Ecological conditions != +spirituality. Just so you know, China is making the very same advancements and I don’t see an ounce of spirituality there.

As for New Age stuff, thats nice. I have yet to see a Westerner who actually reforms himself based on this material and doesn’t think he is superior in every way. Look at Indra Deva, for example, and you will know what I mean.

#93

Well, the point here is clear the West has such a movement, India and China does not. India and China are in the process of industralizing and are now like the West once did, polluting the atmosphere, cutting down the forests and raping the Earth of its resources. The air quality in an average Indian and Chinese city is virtually toxic. This is because they lack ecological awareness, which is certainly part and parcel of spirituality, because it reflects what the sociologist quoted above called a demand for equal quality and virtuous products.

Spirituality is very intimately tied in with ecology for it reflects that one is aware of nature and the need to live an ethical lifestyle to maintain balance. Indeed, this is what Vedic teachings also teach. While, India and China are shamelessly polluting the world, the West is striving for clean, greener and healthier lifestyles.

You are really behaving like a silly billy now. You are exaggering the rise of 30% Indians of which even a fewer percentage have comparable living standards to the West and downplaying the 70% Indians living in extreme poverty under rampant corruption, illiteracy and malnutition. And you are downplaying the 20-30% spiritual westerners who are striving for ecological living and mind-body-spirit harmony.

For the record I have visited the following areas of India: Delhi, Jaipur, Mumbai, Goa, Kerela, Hyderabad, Bangalore. I have not found a single place in India where the majority landscape was not poverty, corruption and illiteracy.

You are obviously not facing facts.

Edit: I really don’t know how you can claim Indians are spiritually superior to the West, when they allow skin bleaching ads to be shown and have a corruption rating many times higher that of USA, UK, Japan etc.

#94

Nietzsche,

If you so hate the west and America in particular, do you plan on moving back to India?

And one final thought for you to ponder. When you surround yourself with negativity, that is all you receive. Its like with raising children, I found it better to use positive reinforcement with our children than negative/punishment. When you surround yourself with a positive environment and think in those terms, even the negative can be looked at as something positive. Much healthier then having a more “victim-like” mentality.

#95

Normally, Lotusgirl I would dismiss the argument of why do you stay in the West, if you are so critical of it as a logical fallacy. Surely, one can be critical of the West and still remain in the West. But in the case of Neitzsche, his gripe does not actually appear to be with Western philosophy and culture i.e.,the conceptual part, but with Western people itself. He seems to find no redeeming value of Western people at all, and ironically the Indian people he is trumpeting, want to be like Western people, even look like them. So it is not a fallacy to ask Neitzsche what the heck is he doing living in the West for 11 years if he hates Western people so much and considers himself a constant victim of ignorance and chauvanism?

Another ironic thing is Neitzsche has faced so many bad experiences with Western people, when most Indians I know have not actually faced bad experiences with Western people and integrated very well into Western culture. On the other hand, he claims the common experiences foreingers have in India of being hassled by touts on the streets, Western women travellers having to cover up to avoid sexual advances, and having to bribe authorities at airports etc are not common.

I have seen a very different world to Neitzsche. This is either because it all subjective and we just happened to have had different experiences, or because Neitzsche is biassed towards seeing the worst in the West and the best in India. I would be inclined to thinking it is the latter, because I know my experiences are more common than Neitzsche’s. It sounds like Neitzsche has a bit of a chip on his shoulder.

#96

Indians, on the other hand, know their limits. For all the ridiculous and factually false claims you make about the entire Indian populace, it still produces some of the highest numbers of engineers and doctors in the world. If Indians were as so drunk and debased as you say they are, something on that scale would never happen. The West, especially, America, can make no similar claim. In fact, their spot in the International education system rankings is DROPPING.

I find this funny. You just said that having ecological awareness and ethical consumerist practices have nothing to do with spirituality, but you think producing an army of doctors and engineers is? India produces more doctors and engineers because it has a bigger population and a strong work ethic because it is poor. It is the same in China. It was the same in the West at the dawn of capitalism, it has a strong work ethic and everybody wanted to be an engineer or doctor. Later on, these values fell as Western society started to rise up against modernism. India is going through a similar growth phase.

By the way India does not have better education than the West. If this was true, why do wealthy Indians go abroad to study? India lacks a single world-class university. Look at the global ranking of universities, Indian universities are barely to be seen anywhere on them.

I am having to point out all these anti-India facts because of the silly exaggerations you are making. You are inviting anti-India material. Now, is that not ironic, considering I am Indian myself and love India to bits.

The West, on the other hand, is lordly and awfully stuffy about all this. They laugh at the pathetic attempts of the countries to emulate their ways. Everything they do regarding the rest of the world is tinged with scorn and a degree of patronization.

I mean come on, look at the above youtube clips they are indeed laughable to a Westerner. They are trying so hard to be like the West. Indian would get a lot more respect in the world if it did not try so hard to be like the West, but retained its Indianess. The Chinese, for example, produce martial arts epics and they are hugely appreciated and respected around the world. India, too has a vast culture of Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Natya etc, why does it not represent that? There is a huge market for Yoga in the world, which Indians are not tapping - why - because they don’t really care about spirituality as I have said over and over again - they crave Western culture. But this is exactly what makes them laughable.

I am a hypocrite? You said “For every criticism you make of the Westen people, an equal and opposite criticism can be made of Indian people.” This means you just admitted the West also has the same faults as India.

Nope, what I am showing here that if you criticise the West for something, a similar fault can be found in India. So why are you engaging in a pointless mudslinging contest by slinging mud at the West, when the West can sling the same kind of mud back at you?
You should stop pretending that India is any better than the West. For better or worse, India is following in the footsteps of the West today. The West is not following India.

Why not pull up similar links on the West?

Because we already know that stuff exists in the West because obviously it has to, for the Indian one to be an imitation. I never claimed the West was a bastion of virtue, it is an incredibly debauched place. But India is no less debauched, and by many indices much more debauched. However, there is a rising class of spiritual Westerners, who are affluent and influencial in all spheres of Western society. They are the product of disenchantment with modernism, materialism and capitalism, and they are craving spirituality and a spiritual world.

Where there is demand, there is supply. In India, there is little to no demand for spirituality - hence little supply in terms of spirituality. In the West there is demand for spirituality - hence a supply of spirituality. Even if we look at mainstream movies, such as Julia Roberts recent spiritual movie, “Eat, Pray, Love” that managed to be a significant success in the West. Not in India. In India, Western imports that have been succesfull have been Spiderman 1 and 2, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter - enough said, yes?

Where is the Indian equivalent of the Secret, What the bleep do we know, Celestine prophecies, The peaceful warrior, the alchemist, what dreams may come?

Why is almost all Yoga research and parapsychological research done in the West?

Why is Yoga such a massive industry in the West, whereas back home only in the last few years has it been revived?

The answer is resoundingly clear: The West has demand for spirituality. India does not. Therefore Hinduism cannot take off in India, but it will take off in the West. The new-age movement in the West is lacking the scientific and sacred rigour of Hinduism, but it is Hinduism in the making. In order to catalyse its development Hindus like you and me need to join it and and expose it to the pure Vedic Hinduism. Recently, I was in the city centre with my friend and I bumped into this man who was new-age and spiritual, without me saying anything he surprised me when he told us, “I have looked all kinds of traditions of spirituality, and the Vedic tradition is the best, most scientific, most comprehensive and precise” My mate then said, “Don’t get my friend started on the Vedic tradition” in humour and he said rather seriously, “No, I want him to get started, because the Vedic stuff needs to be heard by all”

Do your dharma as a Hindu and make the whole world Aryan just as our Risis wanted.

#97

Agree. I just honestly feel so sad that anyone would have so many bad experiences at such a young age. Perhaps it is where he is living currently and it’s more isolated to that area. I don’t know. Of course I do see some of what N says from time to time, but not to the extreme extend he is sharing with us.

I live in a very conservative area. The midwest in general is very conservative. They like things to stay the way they were. They don’t like progress. Cincinnati is always the last to “get” anything. We had a racial riot back in 2001 I believe. Can’t remember what it was about now, but since then, so much has changed. Changed for the better. And it keeps changing for the better. We also have a large percentage of Indian Doctors here and they are highly respected. I have never seen any mistreatment of Indian/Hindu’s here.

And while I have not traveled beyond North America, I have traveled extensively throughout. I, in all my almost 53 years, haven’t seen what N has shared. I’ve been North, South, East and West. My experiences, like yours, have been for the most part good. And that is not to say bad things don’t happen. I know they do. Not everyone is kind and compassionate. With having said that, have I heard jokes about Indians running convenient stores? Yes. Just like I hear jokes about Italians being stallions and their mafia connections, Poles not being able to change light bulbs, Irish drinking,etc. You understand my point I hope. No one culture or group seems to have escaped the jokes.

The west has as much to offer as the east. A perfect society would be a blending of the two. Perhaps it is heading that way with India becoming more of a global player in economics and the West becoming more spiritual. Kind of a role reversal, but maybe at some point we’ll get it that east and west can coexist and thrive together.

#98

By the way, regarding the commmon corruption problems at Indian airports:

http://hindustan.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88
http://grommit.com/blogs/poorna/?p=38

In the above links various people have experienced high levels of corruption, demands for bribes and hassles at the following international airports: Indira Ghandi International(New Delhi), Mumbai international, and Bangalore international.

Are you ready to face the facts?

#99

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51716]I find this funny. You just said that having ecological awareness and ethical consumerist practices have nothing to do with spirituality, but you think producing an army of doctors and engineers is? India produces more doctors and engineers because it has a bigger population and a strong work ethic because it is poor. It is the same in China. It was the same in the West at the dawn of capitalism, it has a strong work ethic and everybody wanted to be an engineer or doctor. Later on, these values fell as Western society started to rise up against modernism. India is going through a similar growth phase.

By the way India does not have better education than the West. If this was true, why do wealthy Indians go abroad to study? India lacks a single world-class university. Look at the global ranking of universities, Indian universities are barely to be seen anywhere on them.

I am having to point out all these anti-India facts because of the silly exaggerations you are making. You are inviting anti-India material. Now, is that not ironic, considering I am Indian myself and love India to bits.

I mean come on, look at the above youtube clips they are indeed laughable to a Westerner. They are trying so hard to be like the West. Indian would get a lot more respect in the world if it did not try so hard to be like the West, but retained its Indianess. The Chinese, for example, produce martial arts epics and they are hugely appreciated and respected around the world. India, too has a vast culture of Yoga, Vedanta, Samkhya, Natya etc, why does it not represent that? There is a huge market for Yoga in the world, which Indians are not tapping - why - because they don’t really care about spirituality as I have said over and over again - they crave Western culture. But this is exactly what makes them laughable.

Nope, what I am showing here that if you criticise the West for something, a similar fault can be found in India. So why are you engaging in a pointless mudslinging contest by slinging mud at the West, when the West can sling the same kind of mud back at you?
You should stop pretending that India is any better than the West. For better or worse, India is following in the footsteps of the West today. The West is not following India.

Because we already know that stuff exists in the West because obviously it has to, for the Indian one to be an imitation. I never claimed the West was a bastion of virtue, it is an incredibly debauched place. But India is no less debauched, and by many indices much more debauched. However, there is a rising class of spiritual Westerners, who are affluent and influencial in all spheres of Western society. They are the product of disenchantment with modernism, materialism and capitalism, and they are craving spirituality and a spiritual world.

Where there is demand, there is supply. In India, there is little to no demand for spirituality - hence little supply in terms of spirituality. In the West there is demand for spirituality - hence a supply of spirituality. Even if we look at mainstream movies, such as Julia Roberts recent spiritual movie, “Eat, Pray, Love” that managed to be a significant success in the West. Not in India. In India, Western imports that have been succesfull have been Spiderman 1 and 2, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter - enough said, yes?

Where is the Indian equivalent of the Secret, What the bleep do we know, Celestine prophecies, The peaceful warrior, the alchemist, what dreams may come?

Why is almost all Yoga research and parapsychological research done in the West?

Why is Yoga such a massive industry in the West, whereas back home only in the last few years has it been revived?

The answer is resoundingly clear: The West has demand for spirituality. India does not. Therefore Hinduism cannot take off in India, but it will take off in the West. The new-age movement in the West is lacking the scientific and sacred rigour of Hinduism, but it is Hinduism in the making. In order to catalyse its development Hindus like you and me need to join it and and expose it to the pure Vedic Hinduism. Recently, I was in the city centre with my friend and I bumped into this man who was new-age and spiritual, without me saying anything he surprised me when he told us, “I have looked all kinds of traditions of spirituality, and the Vedic tradition is the best, most scientific, most comprehensive and precise” My mate then said, “Don’t get my friend started on the Vedic tradition” in humour and he said rather seriously, “No, I want him to get started, because the Vedic stuff needs to be heard by all”

Do your dharma as a Hindu and make the whole world Aryan just as our Risis wanted.[/QUOTE]

No, I said that the fact that producing an army of QUALITY doctors an engineers to such degrees is clearly not indicative of the moral corruption of Indians to such ridiculous proportions as you tout.

Regardless, even the percentages of engineers and doctors produced are higher in India/China than in the U.S.

On the other hand, ecological awareness here goes all the way back pre-WW2 times. It isn’t a product of increasing spirituality. It is the product of the activism of scientists and environmentalists who clearly saw the effects of industrialization on the environment. As such, they aren’t concerned about spirituality but rather on preserving the beauty of their nation. I don’t see anything but nationalism and pride. It is a natural, pragmatic, and understandable response and not the product of the Dharmic ideology flooding the West.

Are you serious? It WASN’T the same in the West. Everybody didn’t want to be a doctor or an engineer. In fact, most people were either business owners or wage earners. You can easily see that in any AP Euro or AP U.S History textbook, like the one I have. Even after post-WW2, most people just became what they wanted to be rather than engineers or doctors. In fact, this country repeatedly has issues where the shortage of doctors and engineers have politicians scuttling on their toes.

The U.S has a crappy education system. In fact, their spot in the world has been FAST declining. I see news everyday where Americans are bemoaning the fate of their education system. Talk to any American and they will tell you that their education system sucks. Even may of the supremacist and chauvinistic friends I have laugh at our education system. The only thing education related that is world-class in the U.S is the colleges and universities. But even then, most Americans have nothing to show for it. Thats the point I am making. India, on the other hand, is making the most out of what little it is has (I already know that Indian education system is still relatively subpar) and is still producing some of the most educated and brightest people in the world. Despite different educational opportunities, Americans are still largely ignorant whereas the younger generation of Indians are not. You can easily see that when someone comes up and asks you “Is India is Africa?” (I am not joking, some person actually asked me that)

Lol? I have been living in the U.S ever since I was 6 and my parents have been living here for 30 years approx. I have moved and traveled extensively throughout the U.S. On the other hand, you are just someone in Britain who THINKS they know about America just because of outdated statistics and about India because they lived in a poor North Indian place. Once again, where in India have you visited? I suggest you visit South India fast.

What are you talking about? Everyone here is SICK of Chinese Kung Fu movies these days. No one wants to see “Karate Kid ‘n’” and Bruce Li movies for the millionth time. In fact, those kinds of movies generally flop unless they actually have a good PLOT, which most of them don’t. Besides, part of the reason such Asian movies are doing relatively OK here, despite their low quality, is because of the ubiquitous Western interest in Asian culture. Asian culture, especially martial arts and anime, is the craze here whereas Yoga is generally thought of as more of a “fitness” trend. Martial arts trumps Yoga any day, in many Westerner’s eyes. I honestly don’t know one American who prefers India to, say, China or Japan in terms of their culture and “awesomeness.” After all, who cares about a poor country that can’t feed half its people? “Eat, Love, and Pray”? Never heard of it, not one bit and I am well in tuned with the media here. In fact, Inception and the Dark Knight were the craze here, and they were actually GOOD movies. I have watched them both many times over and am still not tired of them. In fact, I just can’t resist logging off of these forums and watching some good bits again.

Shows like “Outsourced,” on the other hand, are scorned here. That show is highly degrading and promotes many stereotypes about Hinduism and India.

As for why there aren’t Indian-culture like hits here, the answer lies within the way Indians know they are portrayed and scorned in the West. Whereas the Japanese and Chinese cultures and traditions are seen as “cool” and exotic, India’s culture just seems silly. I mean, comon, many gods, drinking from a polluted river, worshipping stones, no martial arts (seriously, what is a skinny half naked man going around preaching non-violence going to do against Jet Li or Jackie Chan?), so much poverty, and so forth. Many Indians are ashamed of their heritage, and so was I at one point. The sad thing is that this is not without reason, considering all the misinformation and lies on that abound throughout the West about India. It is part of the reason why I think India deserves more help than the West (which is DOING all this cultural subversion).

Hey guess what? Those have also been top hits here and were, in fact, even more popular here than in India! W00T! Hai-FivE (Borat voice).

Actually, if I remember correctly, this whole convo got started when I was arguing with you about whether China would invade India. It got even more intense when you said India was a lost cause. I replied by saying that despite India’s faults the flame for revival still burns bright, unlike the West which is still sunk in its ignorance and chauvinism. And besides, you are right. The West does not want India.

You know what? I agree with you there! In fact, I too hate how many Indians and India in general try to be like the West! But it is scorned not because Indians aren’t being themselves but because an inferior and barbaric race with a baseless and mythological culture, is trying so hard to be civilized. However, you are wrong in thinking that this Western wannabe mindset has pervaded all throughout India and has completely eradicated all potential for spirituality. In fact, the first and second Great Awakenings, religious and cultural revivals in America, didn’t happen for decades after its religion and culture started declining. Such revivals happen everywhere. Why are you so glum about India’s prospects? It is only about 2 decades into its economic high-times, a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things. Besides, it sure as hell won’t come if all Indians are depressed about their true heritage, culture, and nation (like you) and if SOMEONE doesn’t make the effort. Scorn me all you want and shit on India all you want but that is where my heart lies. To me, even living in a relatively poor area is fine as long as I have opportunity to help someone and make personal and emotional connections.

Nope, I am criticizing the West for its chauvinism and supremacist ideologies, ideologies that pervade all throughout the West and reside within the hearts and minds of every Westerner. Look at Indra Deva, Flex Penguin, the Scales, Lotus Girl, and others on this forum who claim they are “spiritually advanced” but are actually so ignorant and hypocritical they don’t even realize it. And the West, instead of helping others (while respecting their views and cultures), scorns them and directly/indirectly puts pressure on them to adopts the “habits of civilized life.” They think they are superior in every way or path and I am trying to show that they are being hypocritical when doing so. The condition in India is besides the point. Instead of scorning India, why can’t Westerners just leave of the ignorance and the criticisms out of the question and, for once, lend a helping hand? Why ignore the fact that they were the ones who raped India to that condition in the first place? I don’t understand how you think I say India is better than the West overall (which is isn’t) when I am merely criticizing the arrogant and ignorant perceptions that form the backbone of Western society.

There is also a “a rising class of spiritual [Indians], who are affluent and influencial in all spheres of [Indian] society. They are the product of disenchantment with modernism, materialism and capitalism, and they are craving spirituality and a spiritual world.” My family back in India is one of them. You just haven’t seen the demand in spirituality throughout India. My family and I have seen it on a mass scale. I don’t understand how you can base India off of a poor North Indian place.

The West demands spirituality but it not spiritual. It cannot be spiritual as long as this “spirituality” runs parallel with its inherent chauvinism. India on the other hand is ready for Hinduism, in fact a different kind of Hinduism. The New Ager movement is a movement lacking any real backbone. It does not know itself.

No, I will not aid the West until it realizes its arrogant hypocrisy and reforms itself. Meanwhile, I will keep my retaded plans to help my shit colored, barbarian, uncivilized, wanna-Wester, dirt poor, debauched, idol-worshipping, and casteist bigoted race, mmk? I will try not to jump into a puddle of shit if I hear news of our dear (foolish is our pride in this wannabe Hollywood actor, no?) Amitabh happening to pass by the shantytown I might end up living in. I will try to restrain myself from drinking from the Ganges river even though my inherent desire to pay homage to baseless and stupid rituals is strong. I will try to not smell like curry and try not to have that odor exude from my armpits.

We are not going to change each others mind. I am growing weary of these arguments not because it wastes one to two hours of the time I could spend doing school work but because I LOVE arguing my point. It is an addiction I am proud to have but in this case, it is just tiring me. We are literally saying the same exact underlying thing to each other in every post. Of course, it isn’t as if there is much else to say in these matters…

In conclusion, I keep my views and you keep yours k? I will place my loyalities by my underdeveloped and “niggah” nation while you place your loyalties by the fair, beautiful, and civilized West.

EDIT: Where do you live in Britain? It seems like an awesome place because it seems to be full of educated and not-so-ignorant people. I just might move there in the future, so I can escape this wretched country and not have my positive opinions of the West be obliterated forever.

#100

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51712]Normally, Lotusgirl I would dismiss the argument of why do you stay in the West, if you are so critical of it as a logical fallacy. Surely, one can be critical of the West and still remain in the West. But in the case of Neitzsche, his gripe does not actually appear to be with Western philosophy and culture i.e.,the conceptual part, but with Western people itself. He seems to find no redeeming value of Western people at all, and ironically the Indian people he is trumpeting, want to be like Western people, even look like them. So it is not a fallacy to ask Neitzsche what the heck is he doing living in the West for 11 years if he hates Western people so much and considers himself a constant victim of ignorance and chauvanism?

Another ironic thing is Neitzsche has faced so many bad experiences with Western people, when most Indians I know have not actually faced bad experiences with Western people and integrated very well into Western culture. On the other hand, he claims the common experiences foreingers have in India of being hassled by touts on the streets, Western women travellers having to cover up to avoid sexual advances, and having to bribe authorities at airports etc are not common.

I have seen a very different world to Neitzsche. This is either because it all subjective and we just happened to have had different experiences, or because Neitzsche is biassed towards seeing the worst in the West and the best in India. I would be inclined to thinking it is the latter, because I know my experiences are more common than Neitzsche’s. It sounds like Neitzsche has a bit of a chip on his shoulder.[/QUOTE]

Wow, you finally realized that? Besides, I came to realize that something was wrong with this society after being continually put down, scorned, and rejected. I constantly set aside these negative experiences in the hope that I would come across someone/something better. This has yet to be the case. I assure you the problem is as rampant as segregation was in the olden days. It is not as easy to see however, because the problem is more temperamental and physcological. Part of the blame lies within American culture, among which its staples are an excessive pride America, and a feeling of superiority.

Although I certainly hope I am experiencing a “chip on my shoulder,” I assure you that it isn’t the case for the majority of the West. That much is evident in the way the conservative and chauvinistic American political party called the “Republicans” or the “G.O.P” literally took over Congress last year.

#101

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;51698]Nietzsche,

If you so hate the west and America in particular, do you plan on moving back to India?

And one final thought for you to ponder. When you surround yourself with negativity, that is all you receive. Its like with raising children, I found it better to use positive reinforcement with our children than negative/punishment. When you surround yourself with a positive environment and think in those terms, even the negative can be looked at as something positive. Much healthier then having a more “victim-like” mentality.[/QUOTE]

In fact, I do. Good riddance. I will use America to educate myself, in the way most Western nations have used the rest of the world, and go back and help India in whatever way I can and to get away from the madness here.

Perhaps I might also stop by Surya Deva’s place. I certainly feel that I need a opinion boost on the West.

#102

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;51757]Wow, you finally realized that? Besides, I came to realize that something was wrong with this society after being continually put down, scorned, and rejected. I constantly set aside these negative experiences in the hope that I would come across someone/something better. This has yet to be the case. I assure you the problem is as rampant as segregation was in the olden days. It is not as easy to see however, because the problem is more temperamental and physcological. Part of the blame lies within American culture, among which its staples are an excessive pride America, and a feeling of superiority.

Although I certainly hope I am experiencing a “chip on my shoulder,” I assure you that it isn’t the case for the majority of the West. That much is evident in the way the conservative and chauvinistic American political party called the “Republicans” or the “G.O.P” literally took over Congress last year.[/QUOTE]

Wait wait wait, no not the Western people! Rather its the ideology and the prejudices I hate.

Thanks for the links Surya. I will read them.

EDIT: By the way, your statistics are based on the Western world’s criterion. I would rather trust the relativist PPP’s statistics as they reflect Indian standards.

EDIT 2: I will be ready to face the facts when you can provide LEGITIMATE and CREDIBLE sources on corruption in Indian airports today, instead of blogs or anecdotes on forums.

#103

Neitzsche,

I think I agree with you we have to terminate this discussion, but mostly because you are simply not being reasonable anymore. You are not facing obvious facts. Such as the blatantly obvious corruption issues which I and my family had to face, and I showed you links where dozens of other people have had to face the same. Nor are you acknowleding the obvious spiritual movements in the West. On top of that you consider producing a large number of engineers and doctors a mark of spirituality, but ecological living where one tries to remain in harmony with nature(a Vedic attitude to boot) not spirituality.

Your language is highly emotional. You are simply refusing to be reasonable about this discussion and I don’t see this changing. Perhaps, it may change with age and experience. I do remember how patriotic I was when I was your age, but as I matured I realised how limiting those beliefs were.

I am a soul who has incarnated as a human, who just happens to be Indian born this life, but nonetheless born in the UK. My aim is to realise my spiritual nature and to spiritualize this world. This has long been what Hinduism is all about, but unfortunately, perhaps because of age or misplaced nationalistic ideologies, you are missing out on this.

Good luck in trying to get to see India see the light. But I think you will have as much luck as trying to play a flute before a cow.

#104

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51794]Neitzsche,

I think I agree with you we have to terminate this discussion, but mostly because you are simply not being reasonable anymore. You are not facing obvious facts. Such as the blatantly obvious corruption issues which I and my family had to face, and I showed you links where dozens of other people have had to face the same. Nor are you acknowleding the obvious spiritual movements in the West. On top of that you consider producing a large number of engineers and doctors a mark of spirituality, but ecological living where one tries to remain in harmony with nature(a Vedic attitude to boot) not spirituality.

Your language is highly emotional. You are simply refusing to be reasonable about this discussion and I don’t see this changing. Perhaps, it may change with age and experience. I do remember how patriotic I was when I was your age, but as I matured I realised how limiting those beliefs were.

I am a soul who has incarnated as a human, who just happens to be Indian born this life, but nonetheless born in the UK. My aim is to realise my spiritual nature and to spiritualize this world. This has long been what Hinduism is all about, but unfortunately, perhaps because of age or misplaced nationalistic ideologies, you are missing out on this.

Good luck in trying to get to see India see the light. But I think you will have as much luck as trying to play a flute before a cow.[/QUOTE]

Define “obvious fact.”

Now provide me links that show the same of all 1.1 Billion Indians.

No, I said that the fact India produces millions of doctors and engineers in evidence that its morals and ethics have not declined, despite what it professes to be spiritually.

It is not a Vedic attitude. It is an attitude characteristic of many cultural and religious groups throughout the world. In the case of the West, it is out of pragmatism, not spirituality. You clearly do not know your history. I suggest reading about post-WW2 environmental activism.

I was being intentionally cynical lol. Perhaps SD, perhaps…

I too could also say “you will have as much luck as trying to play a flute before a cow” at this point.

P.S: Check your PM’s SD! I need your help with something!

#105

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;51821]Define “obvious fact.”

Now provide me links that show the same of all 1.1 Billion Indians.

No, I said that the fact India produces millions of doctors and engineers in evidence that its morals and ethics have not declined, despite what it professes to be spiritually.

It is not a Vedic attitude. It is an attitude characteristic of many cultural and religious groups throughout the world. In the case of the West, it is out of pragmatism, not spirituality. You clearly do not know your history. I suggest reading about post-WW2 environmental activism.

I was being intentionally cynical lol. Perhaps SD, perhaps…

I too could also say “you will have as much luck as trying to play a flute before a cow” at this point.

P.S: Check your PM’s SD! I need your help with something![/QUOTE]

Need to correct typos:

“Despite what it professes to be in terms of its ‘wannabe-culture’.”

#106

I thought I would respond to some of the points you made in response to my points and also to show just how badly you exaggerate some things and thereby taint your objectivity.

On the other hand, ecological awareness here goes all the way back pre-WW2 times. It isn’t a product of increasing spirituality. It is the product of the activism of scientists and environmentalists who clearly saw the effects of industrialization on the environment. As such, they aren’t concerned about spirituality but rather on preserving the beauty of their nation. I don’t see anything but nationalism and pride. It is a natural, pragmatic, and understandable response and not the product of the Dharmic ideology flooding the West.

I think what you conveniantly forget that the approx 50 million(of whom 15-20 million practice Yoga) market did not just refer to environmentalism, but other practices:

Organic and locally grown food
Organic and natural personal care products
Hybrid and electric cars
Green and sustainable building
Energy efficient electronics/applicances
Socially responsible investing
Natural household products (paper goods and cleaning products)
Complementary, alternative and preventive medicine (Naturopathy, Chinese medicine, etc.)
Fair trade products
Literature in the Mind/Body/Soul, Holistic Health, and New Age genres

This is not the product of activism of scientists, but a growing awareness amongst people to moving towards a more natural and holistic lifestyle that is in harmony with nature and the world. Hence why it also includes organic and natural personal care products, socially responsible investing, alternative medicine and literature in mind-body-soul. This market is very closely affilated with the new age movement.

Why are you denying that there is a growing number of spiritual Westerners?
By the way you claimed there was a growing number of spiritual Indians - where? Do you have demographical figures like I cited?

The U.S has a crappy education system. In fact, their spot in the world has been FAST declining. I see news everyday where Americans are bemoaning the fate of their education system. Talk to any American and they will tell you that their education system sucks.

Yeah, sure the US education system is falling in standards, compared to other Western countries. Not compared to developing countries. Hence, why Indians go to the West, US, UK, Australia for education. India lacks a single world-classed university.

India should produce more doctors and engineers, because it has a population of 1.1 billlion people. However, I just did some research and it appears your claims are - surprise - exaggerated:

The US produces on average 20,000 doctors a year. India on average produces 27,000 doctors a year. Yet, the quality of all of these doctors is not actually up to par with Western standards:

Concerns over the deterioration in the quality of physician training have been front and center of late as a result of a proliferation of private medical colleges, not all of which produce the high-quality physicians for which India is known. Allegations have continually surfaced over the past decade that some private medical colleges have been taking bribes to admit less qualified students, while delivering substandard education. For example, in the state of Maharashtra, considered India’s most progressive, a recent inspection report indicated that 9 of 17 private medical colleges were severely understaffed and often lacked essential infrastructure, including teaching beds and clinical materials.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1785175/

If we work by average US graduates 20,000 doctors a year from a population of 307 million people. India graduates 27,000 from a population of 1.1 billion people. Literacy rate in US is 99%, 1% or 3.7 million people are illiterate. In India literacy rate is 68%(2007) 34% or 374 million people are illiterate(significantly more than the entire population of America) making it the country with the highest number of illiterate people in the world.

To compare, the literacy rate of China is 93.3%, Mexico 92.5%, Zimbabwe 91.2%, Brazil 90%. India comes at no 149 out of 180 countries.

How can you at all claim that India today is this great place of education when 374 million people cannot even read or write and 148 countries, including African countries have higher literacy. Do you realise how ridiculous you are looking? Anybody from a country which has 374 million illiterate people, 800 million poor people should not boast of greatness in weath and education lest they want to look like a fool.

What are you talking about? Everyone here is SICK of Chinese Kung Fu movies these days. No one wants to see “Karate Kid ‘n’” and Bruce Li movies for the millionth time. In fact, those kinds of movies generally flop unless they actually have a good PLOT, which most of them don’t. Besides, part of the reason such Asian movies are doing relatively OK here, despite their low quality, is because of the ubiquitous Western interest in Asian culture.

Really? Then why is there a market for them then and appreciation for them amongst world critics? Here are the gross of top 5 subtitled and dubbed Chinese movies in the US:

  1. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon: $128,067,808
  2. Hero: $53,583,486
  3. Kung Fu hustle: $17,104,669
  4. House of flying daggers: $11,041,228
  5. Curse of the golden flower: $6,565,495

In terms of critical acclaim:

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon: Won 4 Oscars, 4 BAFTAS and 2 Golden globes, nominated for 6 Oscars, 10 BAFTAS, 1 Golden Globe

Hero: Oscar, BAFTA and Golden globe nomination. Won best director by national society of film critics USA.

House of flying daggers: nine BAFTA nominations plus a Golden Globe nomination for Best Foreign film

Curse of the Golden Flower: Oscar Nomination for Best cosume design
Kung fu hustle: BAFTA and Golden Globe nomination

Critically acclaimed Chinese movies: Farewell My Concubine, 2046, Suzhou River, The Road Home and House of Flying Dagg

The majority audience for Chinese movies in the US are Caucasians

Top 5 subtitled and dubbed Indian movies in the US:

1 3 Idiots:$ 6,540,000
2 My Name Is Khan $4,020,000
3.Om Shanti Om $3,600,000
4. Jodhaa Akbar $3,450,000
5.Kabhi Alvida Naa Kehna $3,290,000

In terms of critical acclaim:

Lagaan: Nominated for an Oscar
Rang De Basanti: Nominated for a BAFTA
Devdas: Nominated for a BAFTA

The vast majority audience for Indian movies in the US are Indians
According to the critical community in the US, Indian movies are obviously not considered high quality, but Chinese movies are. Chinese movies are more respected and appreciated and have a significant market. The least most succesfull Chinese movie is more succesfull than the most successful Indian movie.

Again how can you deny such a blatant fact? Chinese cinema is globally appreciated and respected, and ironically the most succesful Chinese films have all been the unique Wuxia genre.

Whose fault is it that Indians do not represent their own culture? Yoga, Ayurveda, Vedanta-Samkhya? Indians themselves.

As for why there aren’t Indian-culture like hits here, the answer lies within the way Indians know they are portrayed and scorned in the West. Whereas the Japanese and Chinese cultures and traditions are seen as “cool” and exotic, India’s culture just seems silly. I mean, comon, many gods, drinking from a polluted river, worshipping stones, no martial arts (seriously, what is a skinny half naked man going around preaching non-violence going to do against Jet Li or Jackie Chan?), so much poverty, and so forth. Many Indians are ashamed of their heritage, and so was I at one point. The sad thing is that this is not without reason, considering all the misinformation and lies on that abound throughout the West about India. It is part of the reason why I think India deserves more help than the West (which is DOING all this cultural subversion).

Again, whose fault is it that Indians do not get better representation in the world? Rather than sit there and rant like a madman at the negative streotypes that circulate in the world against India and vituperating against every Westerner who believes in those stereotypes, do something about it by spreading the right information.

Why are you so glum about India’s prospects? It is only about 2 decades into its economic high-times, a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things. Besides, it sure as hell won’t come if all Indians are depressed about their true heritage, culture, and nation (like you) and if SOMEONE doesn’t make the effort.

Actually, Neitzsche it is very ironic that you should say this. You are the one trumpeting India’s so-called rising success based on Western capitalism and the capitalist work ethic(producing armes of doctors and engineers) You are the one trumpeting the elite Westernized middle class. In short you are the one that is not accepting your own heritage and culture.

I am the one that am saying that India needs to return to its Vedic roots. It needs to restore all its traditional systems and bring them up to date with modern technology.

Replace the capitalist and social system with the varnashrama dharma system.
Replace the secularism with pure Vedic Hinduism
Replace the medicine system with Ayurveda
Replace the education system with gurukula system
Replace the city planning system with Vaastu system
Replace gyms with Yoga studios
Replace English with Sanskrit
Replace popular music with Sargam
Revive the study of Vedic philosophy and Vedic sciences and once again make it compulsory to study Sanskrit grammar, Darsanas, epics.

You are actually arguing in favour of capitalism and Westernism. In fact, you are part of reason I am so glum about India’s propects, because you represent a voice of Indians who are happy with continuing capitalism and follow a similar growth pattern the West has, while pretending that you will not face the same economic meltdown the West is facing today.
Indirectly, you are the one campaigning for Westernization of India. Hence why you poo-poo my call to bring India back to its Vedic roots as idealist.

So pray/tell who really is the one glum about their own culture and heritage?
What is hilarious here is that you are trumpeting a Westernized elite middle class in India who crave Western lifestyle and culture - while condemning the West.

Let us summarize the main points made in this post all of which are facts:

  • There is a rising class of spiritual Americans who are affluent, highly educated and affluent estimated to be approx 50 million people who are striving for holistic and mind-body-spirit living. Around 15-20 million of them practice Yoga.

  • US education system is falling in its global ranking against other developed countries, not developed countries. India only produces 7000 more doctors than US does despite having a population of 1.1 billion people. A sizable portion of these doctors are of inferior quality, corrupt and get substandard education. India has the highest number of illiterate people in the world at 374million people and is ranked 149 out of 180 countries, behind many African countries.

  • Chinese movies, subtitled and dubbed enjoy wide appreciation in the world and have enjoyed significant boxoffice success, critical acclaim and recognised by the highest awarding bodies. The least grossing Chinese film is higher than the highesr grossing Indian film and have a majority Caucasian audience, as opposed to the vast majority Indian audience for Indian films.

  • I am supporting the return of India to its Vedic roots, you are the one
    trumpeting Western capitalism and Western education.

#107

On the latter point, even though I want India to return to its Vedic roots. I know that Indian people like you are not ready for it, you have only just got the taste for wealth and capitalism is great to produce temporary wealth and great living standards. If India is still around by 2040, then by 2040 India will be materially identical to America(but I think India will be taken out by China before that happens) But I know 50 million people in the US are ready for it and in fact yearning for it. It is no coincidence that Indian gurus have been flocking to the West since the last century.

A guru does not refuse to impart Vedic knowledge to somebody just because they are not Indian. None of our Risis have every done so. The only requirement is ears that want to hear and eyes that want to see. Ready souls. Western souls are ready and they will receive.

#108

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;51723]By the way, regarding the commmon corruption problems at Indian airports:

http://hindustan.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88
http://grommit.com/blogs/poorna/?p=38

In the above links various people have experienced high levels of corruption, demands for bribes and hassles at the following international airports: Indira Ghandi International(New Delhi), Mumbai international, and Bangalore international.

Are you ready to face the facts?[/QUOTE]

I have chosen take premature retirement and will retire next week. Having said that, My work required me to travel extensively within India. I used to travel at least four times a month for the last ten years and have been thorough all the airports you name very frequently. I have also had several overseas trips and again used these airports in those trips. Not Once I will repeat NOT ONCE have I met with anything but unfailing courtesy and the pleasant expereinces and certainly never any corruption- even when on certain trips my baggage carried electronic and other goods in excess of the permited limits.

#109

I have chosen take premature retirement and will retire next week. Having said that, My work required me to travel extensively within India. I used to travel at least four times a month for the last ten years and have been thorough all the airports you name very frequently. I have also had several overseas trips and again used these airports in those trips. Not Once I will repeat NOT ONCE have I met with anything but unfailing courtesy and the pleasant expereinces and certainly never any corruption- even when on certain trips my baggage carried electronic and other goods in excess of the permited limits.

You see another person’s experiences cannot negate a common experience that many people have. I have talked to many people who have travelled to India, even recently a caucasian friend of mine who actually said he had no problems with Indian airport customs, but his Indians friends told him they were bastards with them.

I really do not appreciate how both N and you are denying this rather common experience. Everybody knows India is a very corrupt country - bribes are demanded in every section of society.

It makes you look little to deny obvious facts. Nobody ever makes any progress without accepting facts. If you want the demon of corruption to be exorcised from India, you need to first accept it exists. Denying corruption makes you just as corrupt as the corruption of India.