I am God


#1

Namaste,

This is one of the prevailing views in world spirituality today that the self is god or that god is nothing more than the human potential. In Advaita we are to realise our identity with god and meditate on the great sayings “I am god” To remind ourselves that we are the infinite, absolute and whole. I must admit that when I do this I feel very powerful and my entire being becomes energized, but at the same time a part of me kicks in that thinks that I am doing something very wrong by declaring this and actually pushing away from god by declaring myself as god. That I should be humble and instead say, “I am a child of god or I am one with god” but not actually say “I am god”

Now this has got me thinking why is it that great Hindu, Sufi and Christian mystics and sages have outright declared they are god. Do I really have any reason to believe there is a father up there in the heavens who is looking after me, loving me, and to whom I must return? If this was true then why is it that nothing good happens in my life unless I actually do something about it myself. Nobody bails me out, certainly not god, I have to make the effort myself to change my destiny. If there really was this great loving being then why would he allow all the suffering and evil on this planet? The more I look at this concept of some personal father god out waiting for his child to come back home, the more unfounded it seems.

What if the main reason we are lowly human beings is because we defer all our potential to some personal father god who is almighty and great and we are merely his children, servants or workers. What if this is the reason that we have not become gods ourselves. And what if we did start thinking of ourselves as gods and creators of our own destiny who are not accountable to anybody or anything. What would happen then?


#2

So I went to this Kriya Initiation sales pitch right a while back I guess. To check them. They were making all these bold claims. Dah dah dah. Selling the service! Intiiation wasn’t that day. It was the next. This was the primer. So question and answer comes up and everbody is basically waiting for me. I laugh. ANd then get into it. “I’ve done this but How do I replicate it reliably?” Or this showed up and what the heck does that mean? I was doing this and this appeared why?" (at this time I didn’t have my mojo activated)

“WHO INITATED YOU?” the one man says. Not the traveling swami…

I had no answer.

The Traveling Swami is like “your doing good keep going.”

After the pitch I start talking to this adorable older motherly type Indian lady. She’s all “wonderful to hear of your experiences.” Are you going to initiation tomorrow? I don’t have the money I says to her. Shes all “I’ll pay!” I thanked her for her kindness but declined.

I wait for everybody who was gonna bow at the feet to bow at the feet. and here comes the swami.

I give him my story - show the marks and he says. "Don’t think so much."
Don’t Think So much?
I started fuming. Even though the sun was in Libra my moon was in Leo.

Some time later I’m watching a show on the Kumbhamela right and in this one scene these kids go up to what looks like a red american parking meter with a television in its head. Swami in a TV. THey are all giggling and excited. I think they had to borrow some money from someone.

They put the money in the slot.
In the green fuzz of the screen A face pops up and the tinny cheap voice says -
“Don’t think so much.”

LOL

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32915]Namaste,

This is one of the prevailing views in world spirituality today that the self is god or that god is nothing more than the human potential.

[B]I was chatting with this guy selling dead sea salt at the mall. ANd I was all well Praise Alah and stuff. He goes “there is no god we are god.” LOL. I was thinking then well dude if I was God I wouldn’t be hawking sea salt in a mall. Nor would I be bald…[/B]

In Advaita we are to realise our identity with god and meditate on the great sayings “I am god” To remind ourselves that we are the infinite, absolute and whole. I must admit that when I do this I feel very powerful and my entire being becomes energized, but at the same time a part of me kicks in that thinks that I am doing something very wrong by declaring this and actually pushing away from god by declaring myself as god.

[B]The Conflict arises due to misunderstanding. [/B]

That I should be humble and instead say, “I am a child of god or I am one with god” but not actually say “I am god”

Now this has got me thinking why is it that great Hindu, Sufi and Christian mystics and sages have outright declared they are god.

[B]For they are ever in union with that, being identified with that. They are like that. [/B]

Do I really have any reason to believe there is a father up there in the heavens who is looking after me, loving me, and to whom I must return?

[B]I don’t know do you have any reason to believe? [/B]

If this was true then why is it that nothing good happens in my life unless I actually do something about it myself. Nobody bails me out, certainly not god, I have to make the effort myself to change my destiny. If there really was this great loving being then why would he allow all the suffering and evil on this planet?

[B] Free Will. Virtue brings happiness. Unvirtue brings suffering. People can’t just have free reign to do whatever they want. Not here. There would be chaos. Harmony must be maintained, spiritual progress. [/B]

The more I look at this concept of some personal father god out waiting for his child to come back home, the more unfounded it seems.

[B]He ain’t OUT THERE!!! He’s right here behind you. [/B]

What if the main reason we are lowly human beings is because we defer all our potential to some personal father god who is almighty and great and we are merely his children, servants or workers.

[B]Lowly Human Beings? Human being is great. You think you got responsibilites now? Try being Brahma! Brahma not free. Indra not free. You can be free!
[/B]

What if this is the reason that we have not become gods ourselves.

[B]Go on Become a God. Then I’ll get to say I told you so![/B]

And what if we did start thinking of ourselves as gods and creators of our own destiny who are not accountable to anybody or anything. What would happen then?

[B]Your free to create your own destiny. If it wasn’t so nobody would play the game.

Strutting about performing actions without accountablity? Law will remedy the disruption. Your free to try this. Please post your findings.
[/B]
[/QUOTE]


#3

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32915]Now this has got me thinking why is it that great Hindu, Sufi and Christian mystics and sages have outright declared they are god. [/QUOTE]

I just wanted to drop in something “for the record” to stop the spread of misinformation. I grow up in Christian tradition (catholic) and I’m 100% sure Christian mystics do not claim that they are god. They talk about communion with God. Declaration “I am god” is considered delusional at best. I’m pretty sure Muslims think along the same line. So I would also conclude that its not exactly prevailing view in today spirituality.


#4

I grow up in Christian tradition (catholic) and I’m 100% sure Christian mystics do not claim that they are god. They talk about communion with God. Declaration “I am god” is considered delusional at best.

This explains a lot about your emotional resistance to New age thought, Hindu thought and quantum idealism and why you were defending “faith” and opposed a reconcilation between science and faith.

Anyway. In fact Christian and Sufi mystics have said words to the effect of “I am god”

ttp://www.peterrussell.com/SG/Ch7.php

To many, the statement “I am God” rings of blasphemy. God, according to conventional religion, is the supreme deity, the almighty eternal omniscient creator. How can any lowly human being claim that he or she is God?

When the fourteenth-century Christian priest and mystic Meister Eckhart preached that “God and I are One” he was brought before Pope John XXII and forced to “recant everything that he had falsely taught.” Others suffered a worse fate. The tenth-century Islamic mystic al-Hall?j was crucified for using language that claimed an identity with God.

Yet when mystics say “I am God,” or words to that effect, they are not talking of an individual person. Their inner explorations have revealed the true nature of the self, and it is this that they identify with God. They are claiming that the essence of self, the sense of “I am” without any personal attributes, is God.

The contemporary scholar and mystic Thomas Merton put it very clearly:

If I penetrate to the depths of my own existence and my own present reality, the indefinable am that is myself in its deepest roots, then through this deep center I pass into the infinite I am which is the very Name of the Almighty.

“I am” is one of the Hebrew names of God, Yahweh. Derived from the Hebrew YHWH, the unspeakable name of God, it is often translated as “I AM THAT I AM.”

I am the infinite deep
In whom all the worlds appear to rise.
Beyond all form, forever still.
So am I

Ashtavakra Gita

Similar claims appear in Eastern traditions. The great Indian sage Sri Ramana Maharshi said:

“I am” is the name of God… God is none other than the Self.

In the twelfth century, Ibn-Al-Arabi, one of the most revered Sufi mystics, wrote:

If thou knowest thine own self, thou knowest God.


#5

The more I look at this concept of some personal father god out waiting for his child to come back home, the more unfounded it seems.

He ain’t OUT THERE!!! He’s right here behind you.

I assuming you are saying he is underlying me. Well, then he is me and I am him. Then what you are calling “god” is nothing more than a potential within me that I can realise. It is this potential that gives rise to this concept of god. However, if the self is god than the referring to god as something distinct from me is completely superflous. I should just say “I am god” and realise my divinity.


#6

While I respect this gentleman (Peter Russel) views on spirituality he doesn’t qualify as a Christian mystic. I’m afraid neither do you so please be more careful when interpreting such subtle statements as those made by mystics. Please have a look at writings of an actual Christian mystic (st. John of Cross). E.g. poem about unity with God:

"(Songs that the soul sings in her intimate union with God, her beloved Bridegroom.)
O Love’s living flame,
Tenderly you wound
My soul’s deepest center!
Since you no longer evade me,
Will you, please, at last conclude:
Rend the veil of this sweet encounter!

O cautery so tender!
O pampered wound!
O soft hand! O touch so delicately strange,
Tasting of eternal life
And canceling all debts!
Killing, death into life you change!

O lamps of fiery lure,
In whose shining transparence
The deep cavern of the senses,
Blind and obscure,
Warmth and light, with strange flares,
Gives with the lover’s caresses!

How tame and loving
Your memory rises in my breast,
Where secretly only you live,
And in your fragrant breathing,
Full of goodness and grace,
How delicately in love you make me feel!"

It’s a bit different from feeling all powerful and all knowledgeable. It’s more about unity in love relationship. He is not describing greatness of his God identity but a RELATIONSHIP with God.


#7

If god creates something, where is it created from? Does God say, Oh, I am god and over there are some atoms and dirt so I will create man out of that. Or did God create man from himself, and if it is created from himself how can it not be him? Jesus said, “I and the father are one” But people will say that Jesus was God in the form of man and therefore hollier then us, especially because of the virgin inception thing.

So pawel, the body you are in is not the fullness of God, but that does not mean it is not God. Can you say, with all certainty, “I am not god”? where does god end and you begin? also, where do you end? are you the air you breath, the sun you see? The human body, where does it end? Does it end at the flesh of the skin? Does it end at the heat it creates, does it end at hte vibrations it gives off?

R. Kelly says in one of his songs that he accepted christ "I accepted Christ that day hallelujah now I’m free"
He also says in another song,
"I am a mountain
I am a tall tree
Oh, I am a swift wind
Sweepin’ the country
I am a river
Down in the valley
Oh, I am a vision
And I can see clearly "

But then again, who would listen to what R. Kelly has to say, He is a sinner who has been with underage woman. Then again one of jesus’s disciples was an alchoholic if im not mistaken.

Is brother Neil gonna say “I am God”? well Ill say this, I am what I am, whatever that may be. Im not trying to convince you that you are God however I would wonder if you were to claim that you are separate from God. If nothing is separate from God then what is it?
best to you
Brother Neil


#8

The difference between us and God or Jesus is [U]Sin[/U]. We are not and cannot be perfect human beings, God and Jesus are perfection. This is my Christian point of view…

Surya Deva, please don’t make general assumptions about Christianity based on the people of this world. If you want to make inferences on behalf of Christians please refer to the scriptures in the Bible. And, please show me in the Bible where it says ‘we are god?!’.


#9

[QUOTE=Brother Neil;32970]So pawel, the body you are in is not the fullness of God, but that does not mean it is not God. Can you say, with all certainty, “I am not god”? where does god end and you begin? also, where do you end? are you the air you breath, the sun you see? The human body, where does it end? Does it end at the flesh of the skin? Does it end at the heat it creates, does it end at hte vibrations it gives off?[/QUOTE]

Oh, I don’t want to give answer to any of such questions. They are way beyond my head. When I try to answer I just feel my brain reporting going into “operating on misconceptions mode”. So in some sense I don’t feel my thoughts on those subjects correspond with reality. I just wanted to say that Christian mystics do not say those things in such sense “I am god”. I know Christian tradition and just don’t want it to be misunderstood.

Playing with logic: in some sense, “I am not god” is the only true thing anyone can say. Because if you say “I am god” it means that you are still in dualistic perception of the existence and thus you are sort of distortion of reality - and whatever you say reflects this distortion. However, if you are in this non dual state (which would be fullness of existence) - can you still say things starting with “I”? :wink:


#10

omamana,
Does it matter what he shows you in the scripture? Would it matter what anyone shows you?

Where do you end and something else begin? where do you end and god begin. The bible has so many words it can be used to support any point of view in the eyes of the reader.

The scriptures say that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. People can use ten thousand words to explain what that means, in simpleton terms, God is everywhere, rules everything, and know everything.

So if god is everywhere how can God and something else occupy the same space


#11

[QUOTE=Pawel;32974]Oh, I don’t want to give answer to any of such questions. They are way beyond my head. When I try to answer I just feel my brain reporting going into “operating on misconceptions mode”. So in some sense I don’t feel my thoughts on those subjects correspond with reality. I just wanted to say that Christian mystics do not say those things in such sense “I am god”. I know Christian tradition and just don’t want it to be misunderstood.

Playing with logic: in some sense, “I am not god” is the only true thing anyone can say. Because if you say “I am god” it means that you are still in dualistic perception of the existence and thus you are sort of distortion of reality - and whatever you say reflects this distortion. However, if you are in this non dual state (which would be fullness of existence) - can you still say things starting with “I”? ;)[/QUOTE]
well you must have been in the dual state when you said this “I don’t want to give answer to any of such questions.” oopps, you started with I, oopps I just said you and I said I :slight_smile:
best to you brother
Neil


#12

[QUOTE=Brother Neil;32977]well you must have been in the dual state when you said this “I don’t want to give answer to any of such questions.” oopps, you started with I, oopps I just said you and I said I :slight_smile:
best to you brother
Neil[/QUOTE]

:smiley: :smiley: Good one!


#13

[QUOTE=Pawel;32978]:smiley: :smiley: Good one![/QUOTE]
Rock on brother


#14

[QUOTE=Brother Neil;32975]omamana,
The bible has so many words it can be used to support any point of view in the eyes of the reader.

The scriptures say that God is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient. People can use ten thousand words to explain what that means, in simpleton terms, God is everywhere, rules everything, and know everything.

So if god is everywhere how can God and something else occupy the same space[/QUOTE]

Hi Neil,

The scriptures matter to me as I am a Christian, so yes to your question. In other words if Surya Deva wants to make inferences about Christians then should he not refer to the Christian Bible? It may not matter to you, but you may not be a Christian.

I totally agree with everything quoted above, where it ends and where it begins is irrelevant to me and I don’t have an answer for you. My statement was simply in response to the initial thread, which is that I believe ‘I am not God’. God may be within me, around me, but I am not Him, I am not perfect without sin and therefore according to my belief I am not God.


#15

[QUOTE=omamana;32983]Hi Neil,

The scriptures matter to me as I am a Christian, so yes to your question. In other words if Surya Deva wants to make inferences about Christians then should he not refer to the Christian Bible? It may not matter to you, but you may not be a Christian.

I totally agree with everything quoted above, where it ends and where it begins is irrelevant to me and I don’t have an answer for you. My statement was simply in response to the initial thread, which is that I believe ‘I am not God’. God may be within me, around me, but I am not Him, I am not perfect without sin and therefore according to my belief I am not God.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough brother, :slight_smile:
Best to you
Brother Neil


#16

[QUOTE=Brother Neil;32990]Fair enough brother, :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps ‘sister’ is better suited :smiley:


#17

[QUOTE=omamana;32991]Perhaps ‘sister’ is better suited :D[/QUOTE]
Jeeze, I cant win LOL


#18

I think it is rather clear that Christianity is open to interpretation. There are some elements in Christianity which sound like they are equating man with god for example where Jesus says “I am and my father are one” or tells everybody else “ye are gods”

Then there is this:

In Christian theology, particularly in Eastern Orthodox and Catholic[1][2][3][4][5][6] theology, theosis (written also: theiosis, theopoiesis, theōsis; Greek: Θέωσις, meaning divinization, deification, or making divine, Unitio in Latin) is the process of transformation of a believer who is putting into practice (called praxis) the spiritual teachings of Jesus Christ and his gospel. In particular, theosis refers to the attainment of likeness to or union with God, that is the final stage of this process of transformation and is as such the goal of the spiritual life.

St. Athanasius of Alexandria wrote, “God became man so that man might become god” (On the Incarnation 54:3, PG 25:192B).

St. Maximus the Confessor wrote, "A sure warrant for looking forward with hope to deification of human nature is provided by the incarnation of God, which makes man god to the same degree as God himself became man… Let us become the image of the one whole God, bearing nothing earthly in ourselves, so that we may consort with God and become gods, receiving from God our existence as gods. For it is clear that He who became man without sin (cf. Heb. 4:15)

“God was made man and man was made God.” (St. Catherine of Siena, Dialogue 15)

“The Word of God became flesh in order that… the flesh might be elevated to God the Word. He…elevates us to the nature of His Godhead.” (St. Hilary of Poitiers, On the Trinity, 1:11, 13)

I am sorry but it seems quite clear that some of these Christian figures are saying that man can become god/s. Something that became possible due to Jesus Christ showing the way.

I just want to repeat what Meister Ekhart says and Sufi mystics are saying, because I don’t think they were properly considered:

When the fourteenth-century Christian priest and mystic Meister Eckhart preached that “God and I are One” he was brought before Pope John XXII and forced to “recant everything that he had falsely taught.” Others suffered a worse fate. The tenth-century Islamic mystic al-Hall?j was crucified for using language that claimed an identity with God.

I am reading the same passages as you and to me it is clear these mystics are claiming identity with god.


#19

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;32995]for example where Jesus says “I am and my father are one” or tells everybody else “ye are gods”[/QUOTE]

All religion is open to interpretation Surya Deva, that is what makes it all so wonderfully awesome and spiritual. I can only comment on the Jesus part of you reply as I am not Catholic and do not believe in Saints, nor what they claim.

I think the scripture you were looking for was Psalm 82:6 ‘Ye are gods; and all of you are [U]children of the most High[/U].’ * Note gods are not Capitalised to claim ‘God’, but rather that we are children of God.* I do not believe I am Jesus, I do believe Jesus was God on earth in human form, so I maintain my previous statement.

You asked for my view, and I gave it, based on my own interpretation of the Bible. I don’t want to justify myself or enter a religious debate with you, nor do I want to prove you wrong or myself right.

You take care Surya Deva.


#20

Some logical arguments for why there cannot be a god distinct from the self:

  1. If there a separate god who created the world what did he create the world out of if there was nothing in existence? The only logic that makes sense that god created or projected the world out of himself. In which case the whole is made out of god. Including us.

  2. If god is infinite and omnipresent than can be no place where god is not. If there is something that is not god then god is not infinite and omnipresent. The only logic that make sense is that god is everywhere including within us.

  3. If god is an all benevolent, all forgiving and pure love then there should be no evil and suffering in the world. If god has given us free will to choose our destiny then we are the architects of our destiny and god plays no role in the world. Therefore the only logic that makes sense here is that we are our own gods.

  4. If god is perfect and we are imperfect then we should not know what perfect is because it is not our quality. However, this is not true, we have natural ideals for perfect and are always being driven by the quest for perfection, immortality, power. The only logic to explain this god is only a potential within us that we can realise.

  5. If god and us are so absolutely different in that we are imperfect and finite and he is infinite and perfect then there cannot be any contact between us. There will always be an infinite gap between us and we will never be able to reach him. In that god cannot be known, however we do know god. The only logic to explain this there is not an infinite gap between us and we are one with god.

  6. The knowledge of god comes from humans. In other words god is within the psychology of the human. There is no empirical proof for god. If there was then we could find god in the world. Therefore we have no reason to believe god is outside of us but must be within us at the core of our own being. Therefore by realising self we realise god.

  7. It is clear that the world obeys scientific laws and everything within the world can be explained by principles of nature(physical, mental, spiritual) Therefore there is no role for god to play it can all be explained by nature. In other words god is nature. As we are within nature then it means we too are god.

Finally, the ultimate reduction is to get rid of the word god because it is identical with the word “self” So rather than saying we are one with god. We should say that “self is god” or “I am god” I think Neitzche was onto something when he said that god is dead and we should all become our own gods. In fact, it seems this seems to be the message within some interpretations of Christianity itself.