Brother Neil<
I do see your point, to a point! What better way to practice tolerance than on a yoga forum, right? But, in the meantime, we have scared away future yogini’s due to abusive posts. So I do see both points though. Your words were full of wisdom. Thank you! Just hope they are not lost!
Realization is real religion.
-vivekananda
[QUOTE=TeeA;35363]Thanks for the links YogiAdam!! They were uplifting and encouraging.
And good luck with the downward dog.
Surya Diva
As for Abrahamic religions, it is sad that you lump us all into the same catagory. Many of the most peaceful and tolerant people I know are Christians. If you don't believe it here it is:
These churches/christians grew out of a violent time and in response to that live lives that avoid war and embrace tolerance of all religions. In fact many were persecuted for their objection to war during the Civil, WW1 and WW2 , but are now protected here in the States under Conscientious objector status (which means they can not be drafted for war) In fact some more liberal branches of these denominations feel that the Bible is not literal, but rather a guide to how we should live our lives. As a Christian we are to be living examples of Christ, and while that may have violent intolerant meanings for some, for the above denominations that means living a life that emphases peace, simplicity, equality of believers (of all religions) and (for only those who are followers of Christ) a consistent obedience to Christ.
When you "lump" us all together it is like calling all Musliums "terrorists", all Americans "greedy bastards", or all Indians "telemarketers with bad English accents and funny little dots on their heads". Its shallow and un-insightful and does nothing to accomplish whatever conversion you are attempting to gain. You can "brag" about the benefits of being Hindu all you want, but don't assume that one general population is the same. There are always shades of grey.[/QUOTE]
You hit the nail on the head! Wow!
The only intolerance I can see here is the intolerance over my opinions
Both of which are valid points
I am afraid some people on this forum are going to have to learn to tolerate opinions that they may not share. I say my opinions politely and confidently, without recourse to personal attacks or condemnation of another person stating another opinion. I am afraid the people who have engaged in this behaviour against me have only shown themselves to be intolerant.
[QUOTE=omamana;35380]All your energy spent on generalizing, judging, blaming, and unforgiveness…does these traits perhaps lead to your over active mind, as you referred to before?[/QUOTE]
Namaste, please tell me where I am generalizing about the fact that Christianity and Islam historically and still by in large hold beliefs that all non-believers are condemned and are going to hell.
Also point out the generalization where the crusades, jihads, inquisitions, genoide, persecutions which were done by the Islamic Caliphs and the Christian Church.
It is an uncontroversial historical fact how much war, death, destruction and violence has been done by Christianity and Islam. Where is the generalization?
Can we just brush under the carpet the millions that have been killed in cold blood by the religions of Christianity and Islam? Should we just pretend it did not happen, just so that we can maintain the farce that religions are equal and promote love and peace?
[QUOTE=Techne;35404]I offer a possibility: this is only true when we understand a faith’s claims to include a universal scope, rather than the scope of the faith’s own adherents. (which I notice many insist upon.) Isn’t it possible that each distinct religion is right when understood with the proper scope, and that at least several peoples have a distinct deal with a distinct god – or at the very least, a distinct deal with a god who insists upon diversity? (and here I notice that I’m definitely using my own Abrahamic words to describe a people’s relationship to their deity: a covenant. I intend more drastic inclusion than I can place in words quite yet.)
Rather than most religions being wrong about everything, it is possible that most religions are only wrong about one thing: that they matter to folks outside the fold? And we won’t get to know for sure until we reach the undiscovered country.[/QUOTE]
As a Hindu, and Hinduism is the only true tolerant religion on this planet, I believe that a Christian, Muslim, Jew can reach the highest spiritual heights provided they are good people. However, this does not mean we accept that all religions are equally true.
I mean come on your religion teaches that there will be a judgement day and everybody will rise out of their grave and stand judgement before a god who will judge them for what they did in this life.
Do you not find many problems in this belief? I will point them out
The body decomposes at death and all that remains are skeletons(which are destroyed on the cremation of a body) It is impossible for this process to be reversed. Nobody has ever seen a skeleton come back to life and turn back into a person.
If there is a judgement day then it only limited to earth-time. However, we know for a fact that the earth is just one planet in one solar system amongst trillions and trillions of other star systems and the entire history of earth is but a twinkling in the eye. The earth will be long gone and the rest of the universe will continue to exist.
How unfair is to make a judgement of a person just based on what they did in one life time and then either condemn to eternal hell or reward them eternal life. How is it fair when everybody is born in different circumstances. This makes the Abrahamic god seem like an irrational tyrant.
Therefore this belief cannot possibly be true. Those who believe this believe in irrationality. Now, let us contrast this with Hinduism which says that the soul will transmigrate after the death of the body take take on a new one whether on this planet or another.
It is logical that the body and the soul are not the same, because the soul remains even after the body changes. It is also impossible that the soul is inside the body because otherwise we could open up the body and see the soul. Therefore the soul merely associates with the body, and as it is an association, it can associate with another body.
There is actual scientific evidence for reincarnation in the form of people who remember their past lives. These accounts are reported in all religions. There is also scientic evidence for the existence of a spiritual body(astral body) which exists separately from the physical body.
Therefore this belief is supported by strong evidence.
Any rational person would accept what Hinduism is saying to be true over what the Abrahamic religions are saying. They are obviously not both true. Either skeletons will rise from the grave someday and transform into people or the soul departs and takes on a new body at the moment of the death of the physical body.
SD-No one is intolerant of your opinion. Only how you present it. And you cannot say you present your opinions politely and without condemnation. This is illogical.
As far as your argument about generalizing, you cannot say, absolutely, that every christian during the crusades supported them. Just as you cannot say every muslim is a terrorist. Again. It is not logical. And “WHO” is deciding equality of religions? You? Each religion thinks they are right in accordance to their doctrine/dogma. Does that make that particular religion wrong, or the people who follow it bad people? Only in the eyes of another religion. The truth is we don’t know the truth. We all only collect facts and base our beliefs on those facts and how they fit in our view of the world. We search for meaning and what makes sense. But it is subjective depending on so many variables like, environment, class, education etc. I see many religions all striving, for the most part, toward the same goal. I think it is a beautiful way to look at it. It may not be your way, but I celebrate your way too! Your way is good for you. It is logical and makes complete sense. Please understand that others do not see it this way, but it does not mean that they don’t respect you or your views.
Namaste
I am not politically correct. I say it as it is. I have no problem saying Hindusim is the one true religion and others need to jump ship.
There is scientific evidence to back up everything Hindusim says. All of its main beliefs are being confirmed by science. The practice of Yoga which you all practice actually works and you know it does, otherwise you would not be here. There are tons of scientiic studies proving Yoga works. How many scientific studies prove that baptism works? Or praying 5 times a day works? None.
I think there is more than a hint here folks that Hinduism is a true religion and the Abrahamic religions are false. The Abrahamic religions have taken so many people in this world for a ride. Jump ship.
SD-No one is intolerant of your opinion. Only how you present it. And you cannot say you present your opinions politely and without condemnation. This is illogical/
Yes, they are. I do present my opinions politely with no personal abusing, no condemnation of anothers opinion. In fact I pay that opinion respect by engaging it directly, no matter what is said. On the other hand, if I say something, I get personal abuses, I get gangs of people condemning me, and they do not engage my points. It is clear that I am practicing tolerance here and these others are not.
As far as your argument about generalizing, you cannot say, absolutely, that every christian during the crusades supported them. Just as you cannot say every muslim is a terrorist. Again. It is not logical.
I never said that. However, what I can say that the highest religious authorities, the Chrisitian popes and the Islamic Caliphs themselves ordained these acts. Do you know how many millions were slaughtered in cold blood by Christianity and Islam? Let us not pretend for a moment these are religions of peace. These are fundamentalist religions which preach that billions on this planet are condemned are going to hell. Yes, there maybe certain denominations that do not preach this, but by in large the majority of the religion teaches this.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35416]As a Hindu, and Hinduism is the only true tolerant religion on this planet, I believe that a Christian, Muslim, Jew can reach the highest spiritual heights provided they are good people. However, this does not mean we accept that all religions are equally true.
Yes, Hinduism does not have much of a history of violence. You are correct.
[QUOTE]
I mean come on your religion teaches that there will be a judgement day and everybody will rise out of their grave and stand judgement before a god who will judge them for what they did in this life.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
It is called faith, I believe. Jesus rose from the dead according to the bible. The bible is text of christians. It is written, therefore they have faith. Can they prove that Jesus did this? No. Again it is called faith. It is the same with the Veda’s, Upanishads, etc. It is written. You believe because you have faith. Can you prove all of it? No. But you have faith.
[QUOTE]
Any rational person would accept what Hinduism is saying to be true over what the Abrahamic religions are saying. They are obviously not both true. Either skeletons will rise from the grave someday and transform into people or the soul departs and takes on a new body at the moment of the death of the physical body.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
Again, it is faith. It is not an argument as to which religion is right. We will never know who is truly right until we pass. If you think you know definitively, you don’t, because it is faith.
Yes, they are. I do present my opinions politely with no personal abusing, no condemnation of anothers opinion. In fact I pay that opinion respect by engaging it directly, no matter what is said. On the other hand, if I say something, I get personal abuses, I get gangs of people condemning me, and they do not engage my points. It is clear that I am practicing tolerance here and these others are not.
I just deleted what I had written. I will end my conversation with the above statement is not true. You are not tolerant when you don’t listen to other viewpoints, don’t try to understand or make peace with the fact that neither will budge.
Believing in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy is also faith. Believing that jews are sub human and should be annhilated is also faith. Believing that all muslims are terrorists is also faith. Believing that commiting mass suicide when a commet passes over is also faith. Believing that killing in the name of god the non-believers is also faith.
You say “It is faith” as if it justifies people holding onto ridiculous, dangerous and and irrational beliefs.
The Vedas and Upanishads do not at all say believe, they tell you to come to your own conclusions using your own experience and intellect so it is based on actual evidence. There is no such thing as faith in Hinduism. Blind belief is poison.
Again, it is faith. It is not an argument as to which religion is right. We will never know who is truly right until we pass. If you think you know definitively, you don’t, because it is faith.
We don’t have to wait that long.
We already know half of what the bible and quran says is wrong. We know that the earth is not flat. We know that god did not create this universe in 7 days and we know that the sun and the moon were not created after man was created. We know the stars are not oil lamps in the sky. We know skeletons do not transform back into people. We know baptism does not change your body or mind. We know there is no such place called heaven or hell in the sky.
We know science works
We know Yoga works
We have scientific evidence for reincarnation, powers of the mind and the soul
It is silly claiming we don’t know anything, because if that was true, there would be no computers, space shuttles, lasers, nuclear bombs.
More fluffy new-ager talk to be honest.
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;35422]I just deleted what I had written. I will end my conversation with the above statement is not true. You are not tolerant when you don’t listen to other viewpoints, don’t try to understand or make peace with the fact that neither will budge.[/QUOTE]
Why should I budge if I am right? Your definition of tolerance sounds like agreeing with another person.
I damn right am not going to agree with absurd statements like “there is no self” “all religions are equal” or “we don’t know anything” These statements can be demonstrated to be absurd.
I think your problem is you don’t like being refuted. You like people who agree with you or do not challenge what you say. Many of your posts on this forum are just bigging up other people because you agree with them. Unfortunately, life is not like that. In life you will always find people who will challenge what you say.
I saw nothing in the terms and conditions of this forum which said, “Thou shalt not argue”
Your problem is clear you cannot defend your views from logical scrutiny. Then you do what most people do when they can’t win an argument, you resort to adhominems, rhetoric and politics.
"Your problem is clear you cannot defend your views from logical scrutiny. Then you do what most people do when they can’t win an argument, you resort to adhominems, rhetoric and politics."
and you are always tired because???, you are telling her of her problems and you cannot figure out your own? it would be nice SD if you would stop this and i realize my above post has poked the snake.
lotusgirl, why feed him?
I am not going to stop sharing my opinions. You can either put me on ignore, not respond to what I say, or just deal with it.
This is obviously not my problem. This is a problem with you, Lotus girl, Yogiadam and intolerance for hearing contradictory opinions. The impartial reader would agree.
The problem with you people is that you want to have your cake and eat it as well. You want to state opinions on a discussion forum, but you don’t want them to be challenged. You will argue, but when you can’t convince the other person, you want to bail out.
You can’t beat me in an argument, let’s just face the truth.
The points I have made are entirely valid
Learn to deal with the truth. It will save you a lot of a grief.
I have never been intolerant on this forum. I have, with you, often said I respect your opinion, this is not what I believe, let us agree to disagree, I respect Hinduism. It is you who has chosen to “try to win the argument”. I do not bail out. To me it is not a game to be played to see who can win. As you would say, it is illogical. I have my beliefs and you have yours. I am not trying to change your mind, only trying to help you see the bigger picture.
And regarding violence, please explain the violence in the Bhagavadgita. There is violence everywhere. I condemn the crusades for their violence, but I don’t condemn all christians. If you buy a bag of apples and one is bad, do you throw out the whole bag? No, you would not.
And contrary to what you may think I do not want you to stop sharing your views. I would like it if you would say these are your views and not that we are all wrong. When you do this Surya, it does not promote discussion which is the purpose of this forum. You have a wealth of information and knowledge that we all could and can benefit from. This is true!
And one final note, I have my own truth and do not suffer from grief, thank you.
In order to demonstrate my points here is an illustration from the Quran itself:
190-193 “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you … And slay them wherever ye catch them … And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression and there prevail justice and faith in God …”
2:216 “Fighting is prescribed for you and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth and ye know not.”
2:224 “Then fight in the cause of God and know that God heareth and knoweth all things.”
3:157-158 “And if ye are slain or die in the way of God, forgiveness and mercy from God are far better than all they could amass. And if ye die, or are slain, Lo! It is unto God that ye are brought together.”
3:169 “Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they live finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.”
3:195 “… Those who have … fought or been slain, verily I will blot out from them their iniquities and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath; a reward from the presence of God …”
4:101 “… For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.”
4:74, 75 “Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God whether he is slain or gets victory, soon shall we give him a reward of great (value). Those who believe fight in the cause of God and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil, so fight ye against the friends of Satan, feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.”
4:89 “They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they. But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them…”
4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit at (at home) and receive no hurt and those who strive and fight in the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than those who sit (at home).
5:36 “The punishment of those who wage war against God and His apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land. That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.”
5:54 “O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.”
8:12-17 "Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them. This because they contend against God and his apostle. If any contend against God and his apostle, God is strict in punishment … O ye who believe. When ye meet the unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day, unless it be a stratagem of war … he draws on himself the wrath of God and his abode is Hell, an evil refuge (indeed).”
8:59-60 “Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly). They will never frustrate (them). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of God and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know …”
8:65 “O apostle! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers, for these are a people without understanding.”
9:5 “… fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) …”
9:14 “Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame …”
9:29 “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and his apostle nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya [religious tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
47:4 “Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) … but if it had been God’s will, he could certainly have exacted retribution from them (himself), but (he lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of God, he will never let their deeds be lost.”
61:4 “Truly God loves those who fight in His cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.”
So this is a religion of peace?
Bhagavadgita:
I received this from a dear friend who is Hindu. It is from the Gita Press, Gorakhpur, India.
In chaprter 2, Lord Krisna and Arjuna are having a discussion having to do with battle. Arjuna does not want to do battle. Lord Krisna tries to explain why it is OK.
Ch. 2 Verses 30 & 31 Arjuna, this soul dwelling in the bodies of all can never be slain; therefore you should not mourn for anyone.
Besides, considering your own duty too you should not waiver, for there is nothing more welcome for a man of the warrior class than a righteous war.
Verse 33 Now if you refuse to fight the righteous war, then, shirking your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur sin.
Verse 37 Die, and you will win heaven; conquer, and you will enjoy sovereignty of the earth; therefore, stand up, Arjuna, determined to fight.
Can you honestly say this is a religion of peace?
In the Begining the christian movement was a mystic cult that supposedly began to form around the teachings of a prophet/avatar/saintly/messiah kind of person.
This mode of living (christianity) began to catch on very rapidly in the ERA and PLACE.
Having such a profound influence in the lives of Many for the ERA and PLACE, those who thirst for power and control began to slowly corrupt and or remove the original modes of knowledge within the movement in a carefully contemplated plan.
I believe it was the Emperor Constantine who intiated this plan inorder to use the prevalent religion of the Slaves, who could not read BTW, which was christianity, inorder to control them…
So yes taken [I]literally[/I] the Bible is full of darkness.
Silly Superstitions.
Some totally preposterous beliefs.
How do they make them buy the Sillyness?
You gotta have “the faith.” “the Faith” will be your boulder - and chain.
Now if one studies the Bible with the eyes and mind of a theologian who has studied all the major religions in depth, the bible comes to life.
[B]For it is with this mind of discrimination, gained by study, contemplation, and practical application, that one can cut through the ERA and PLACE and AGENDA to find the essentials . . . which are unitary and universal.[/B]
Islam? Who cares?
What is the ERA and PLACE and AGENDA. What are the essentials?
There are Renunciates in the traditional religious systems of india. Sadhus. Sanyassins.
So I don’t want to hear how Buddhist followers are unhappy, life denyers. You quit with that stupidity. Forsaking the world. Its in the religion you hold so dear . . . as it is in all religions. This renunicate type…
You speak of fighting in christianity and islam?
Isn’t the mahabharata about a war? There’s usually some fighting in war.
Lotusgirl,
I admire your attempt at trying to show me the violence in Hinduism as I have with Islam, but if you were even slightly honest with yourself, you would realise you are comparing apples with oranges. If you are at all familiar with the Gita, you will realise that the Gita is set on a battlefield between two armies which are about to clash. Arjuna is having misgivings at the last moment, so Krishna is helping his friend Arjuna deal with this misgivings.
Moreover, this war has not been waged by Krishna and the side Krishna is on, it has been waged by the opposite side which are hell-bent on destroying them. If you are at all familiar with the history, the Gita is set during the end of the Mahabharata, when the injustice against the Panadvas by the Kuruvs had reached tipping point. I have talked about these injusticed in another thread, but I will briefly mention them: assassination attempt on Bheema as a child; assassination attempt on the entire family of the Pandavas through conspiracy to have them burnt to death in a palace; denying them their share of the kingdom and giving barren land; a rigged-dice game to humilate the Pandavas, including disrobing their wife in a public assembly; another game of dice which leads to them being exiled for 15 years and many more atrocities that were done against them. After all of this finally does the war begin and now this war is inexorable. Krishna is advising Arjuna that if he backs out now, he will allow the unrighteous to prevail and the future society wil be suffer because of this. So it is his duty as a warrior to protect his people.
Now dear, pray/tell how can you compare this to the verses I just cited from the Quran which is outright saying that it is okay to kill non believers, and that you can actively seek them out wherever you find them, torture them, seize them and kill them?