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Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#61

Now Surya, this is good discussion! Thank you.

But I am not saying that Islam or Christianity has not had their share of violence. In their beliefs, they felt justified in using violence to further their cause. But true Christians know that this is not what the Bible teaches. Many have misinterpreted and skewed its teachings. I guess my point in citing the Gita was does ANY violence justify further violence? One can always justify. Violence is violence, regardless. Was it justified for the US to go into Iraq? Was Saddham Hussein guilty of mass genocide? Yes he was. But we are no better if we use violence to combat violence. It keeps the cycle going which is counterproductive to producing peace.

#62

Islam and Christianity is full of violence, and the violence was justified simply on the basis that you were not a member of their religion. I know the bible does not teach this, but the Church which is the highest religious authority of Christianity ordained this violence. As for the Quran, the quran does in fact teach violence. If you look at the history of Islam it is full of blood shed and conquest. Here is an example of what the Muslims did to the Hindus:

http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/irin/genocide.html
There is no official estimate of the total death toll of Hindus at the hands of Islam. A first glance at important testimonies by Muslim chroniclers suggests that, over 13 centuries and a territory as vast as the Subcontinent, Muslim Holy Warriors easily killed more Hindus than the 6 million of the Holocaust. Ferishtha lists several occasions when the Bahmani sultans in central India (1347-1528) killed a hundred thousand Hindus, which they set as a minimum goal whenever they felt like “punishing” the Hindus; and they were only a third-rank provincial dynasty. The biggest slaughters took place during the raids of Mahmud Ghaznavi (ca. 1000 CE); during the actual conquest of North India by Mohammed Ghori and his lieutenants (1192 ff.); and under the Delhi Sultanate (1206-1526). The Moghuls (1526-1857), even Babar and Aurangzeb, were fairly restrained tyrants by comparison. Prof. K.S. Lal once estimated that the Indian population declined by 50 million under the Sultanate, but that would be hard to substantiate; research into the magnitude of the damage Islam did to India is yet to start in right earnest.

Note that attempts are made to deny this history. In Indian schoolbooks and the media, an idyllic picture of Hindu-Muslim harmony in the pre-British period is propagated in outright contradiction with the testimony of the primary sources. Like Holocaust denial, this propaganda can be called negationism. The really daring negationists don’t just deny the crimes against Hindus, they invert the picture and blame the Hindus themselves. Thus, it is routinely alleged that Hindus persecuted and destroyed Buddhism; in reality, Buddhist monasteries and universities flourished under Hindu rule, but their thousands of monks were killed by Ghori and his lieutenants.

Apart from actual killing, millions of Hindus disappeared by way of enslavement. After every conquest by a Muslim invader, slave markets in Bagdad and Samarkand were flooded with Hindus. Slaves were likely to die of hardship, e.g. the mountain range Hindu Koh, “Indian mountain”, was renamed Hindu Kush, “Hindu-killer”, when one cold night in the reign of Timur Lenk (1398-99), a hundred thousand Hindu slaves died there while on transport to Central Asia. Though Timur conquered Delhi from another Muslim ruler, he recorded in his journal that he made sure his pillaging soldiers spared the Muslim quarter, while in the Hindu areas, they took “twenty slaves each”. Hindu slaves were converted to Islam, and when their descendants gained their freedom, they swelled the numbers of the Muslim community.

#63

Scales,

Was not familiar with the Mahabharata, so Wikipedia’d it. Interesting and good point.
I must admit though, sometimes it is hard to understand what you are trying to say. I’m sure it’s me. I find it hard to read between the lines. I do find your humor amusing though! We need a dose of that from time to time. i.e your rock and roll mudra! Loved it.

#64

Surya, keep in mind I am not arguing the point about violence in religion. History has shown this. It is unfortunate that the hierarchy in the Christian faith ordered such violence in the name of God. But we must keep in mind that we cannot generalize that all of Christianity is violent. There are many good caring peace-loving Christians. I don’t think it is so black and white. And like I said in my previous post, ‘is it justified to use violence to combat violence?’ From a truly religious perspective I think not.

Did not know about all the deaths of Hindus and the hands of Islam. Sad indeed.

#65

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35415]Namaste, please tell me where I am generalizing about the fact that Christianity and Islam historically and still by in large hold beliefs that all non-believers are condemned and are going to hell.

Also point out the generalization where the crusades, jihads, inquisitions, genoide, persecutions which were done by the Islamic Caliphs and the Christian Church.

It is an uncontroversial historical fact how much war, death, destruction and violence has been done by Christianity and Islam. Where is the generalization?

Can we just brush under the carpet the millions that have been killed in cold blood by the religions of Christianity and Islam? Should we just pretend it did not happen, just so that we can maintain the farce that religions are equal and promote love and peace?[/QUOTE]

Hi Surya,

You make me feel like as a Christian I am a murderer, judgemental, intolerant and ignorant, I don’t believe I am, but this is how your statements make me feel. Is it your intention to make me feel this way, do you really think this is who I am? I’m not assuming you are, but you might be.

Regardless. I am simply pointing out that perhaps you receive a great deal of resistance because of your manner, you are after all talking to people with feelings and emotions, only sating your opinions without consideration of how it makes others feel will result in people focussing on how what you say makes them feel, rather than the content of what you have said. This is just human nature, and we are complex human beings with feelings and emotions which usually dominates the mind. Why do you think sales people with charisma and charm can sell us so many things we don’t need?! :smiley:

I agree that what you have said about Islam and Christianity is true, and to answer your question, YES, I do think we should brush under the carpet! I grew up during apartheid in South Africa, should we forget how black and Indian people were treated, NO not at all, should we brush it under the carpet, YES, because that is how we move forward together, fuelling the anger and blame over apartheid has recently lead to additional deaths…is this the solution you are after, revenge?

I also agree that all religions are fundamentally different, and one cannot pick and choose the parts you agree or disagree with based on new age fashion, or being accepted by society (*referring to people of religious domination). But we can all come together in peace, tolerance, and compassion regardless of our differences. Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, and Ghandi have proven this possible, they were/ are still followers of their religion but they did/ do not focus on war, hate, blame and difference.

#66

I am not generalizing all of Christianity or Islam to be violent. I know there are peace-loving Christians and Muslims. My point is that Abrahamic religions have a history of violence, death and destruction and they are not at all comparable to the dharmic religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism, which have little to no history of violence.
So it is absolutely incorrect to say all religions are equal. It is obvious that some religions are more peace-loving than others.

My other point is that the Abrahamic religions still hold onto the same intolerant doctrines that produced the violence historically. They still maintain that the non-believers are condemned. Therefore it is clear that of all religions in the world, the religions that are most in need of reform are the Abrahamic religions.

Another point is that not all the tenets/beliefs of the religions are equal. Some are grounded more in reason and evidence than others. For example the explanation for sin in Christianity is based on a mythical tale of Adam and Eve eating an apple from a tree that god forbade them to eat from, and as a result we have all inherited sin and are born sinners. In Hinduism and Buddhism, there is no such thing as sin, only wrong action which is born of desires which cloud our intellect and cause us to act wrongly. It is easy to see that the latter explanation is sensible and enlightened, and the former is pure mythology.

It is easy to see then the Abrahamic religions are not true religions. They are full of mythology which is nonsensical and have a history of violence, death and destruction. It is insulting to compare these primitive religions to enlightened religions like Hinduism and Buddhism.

#67

Release emotional attachment to your religion.

Study your religion.

Study other religions.

Take the essence.

Practice the yogas. In particular those leading to the highest knowledge.

#68

Excellent point Omamana regarding brushing under the carpet and moving forward. It only fans the flames of hatred and violence if we don’t. You’ve shown that with your example of apartheid. Beautiful last paragraph too. Thank you.

Surya-

My other point is that the Abrahamic religions still hold onto the same intolerant doctrines that produced the violence historically. They still maintain that the non-believers are condemned. Therefore it is clear that of all religions in the world, the religions that are most in need of reform are the Abrahamic religions

 Do you not do the same thing when you tell someone they are wrong with regards to their religious beliefs?  Are you not, in reality condemning them because as you put it, Hinduism is the only one true religion?
#69

Namaste Omamana,

No my intention is not to make you feel bad.

You see we cannot brush this under the carpet because it has all happened, it is real and the doctrines that produced them are still there. Islamic terrorism is still being practiced today. The Church by in large still does teach all non-Christians are condemned.

If we truly want to move forward into the future with tolerance and understanding we are going to have to be honest about the past and the present. We cannot build the future on a makeshift foundation.

Whichever way we look at it the future religion is going to have to be like Hinduism. The Abrahamic religions will have to adopt these Hindu tenets themselves to survive:

  1. Accepting all paths and ways lead to god
  2. Accepting karma and reincarnation
  3. Accepting dharma
  4. Accepting self-realization as the highest goal of life

Others should jump ship. There is nothing to gain from these primitive Abrahamic religions. They teach false history, mythology and intolerance. Hinduism, on the other hand, teaches genuine history, scientific facts and methods via which one tap their highest potentials.

There is no need for me to be politically correct. It is obvious Hinduism is the only one true religion on this planet.

#70

Do you not do the same thing when you tell someone they are wrong with regards to their religious beliefs? Are you not, in reality condemning them because as you put it, Hinduism is the only one true religion?

There is no doctrine of condemnation in Hinduism. Everybody is considered to be divine(hence why we say Namaste, the divinity within me bows to the divinity within you) However, different people will realise this divinity at different times.

#71

“The Church by in large still does teach all non-Christians are condemned.”

This one right here is a Doozy for me.

What does condemned mean?

Eternal - never ending suffering in a hell realm?

or

simply spiritual darkness?

#72

T

here is no doctrine of condemnation in Hinduism. Everybody is considered to be divine(hence why we say Namaste, the divinity within me bows to the divinity within you) However, different people will realise this divinity at different times.

I didn’t say there was a doctrine of condemnation. What I said was aren’t you condemning people for their views if they are not Hindu? You keep saying Hinduism is the only one true religion on the planet. What happens to those who are not Hindu? Are they condemned to eternal darkness or nothingness? Do Hindus view all people divine regardless of their religious beliefs? If so, what does it matter what they believe?

#73

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35459]Namaste Omamana,

No my intention is not to make you feel bad.

You see we cannot brush this under the carpet because it has all happened, it is real and the doctrines that produced them are still there. Islamic terrorism is still being practiced today. The Church by in large still does teach all non-Christians are condemned.

If we truly want to move forward into the future with tolerance and understanding we are going to have to be honest about the past and the present. We cannot build the future on a makeshift foundation.

Whichever way we look at it the future religion is going to have to be like Hinduism. The Abrahamic religions will have to adopt these Hindu tenets themselves to survive:

  1. Accepting all paths and ways lead to god
  2. Accepting karma and reincarnation
  3. Accepting dharma
  4. Accepting self-realization as the highest goal of life

Others should jump ship. There is nothing to gain from these primitive Abrahamic religions. They teach false history, mythology and intolerance. Hinduism, on the other hand, teaches genuine history, scientific facts and methods via which one tap their highest potentials.

There is no need for me to be politically correct. It is obvious Hinduism is the only one true religion on this planet.[/QUOTE]

For me this is not a debate of who’s religion is the right one, and I’d prefer not to enter one. Nothing you say will convert me, nothing I say will convert you, so in my opinion there is no point wasting our energies on this, regardless of how ignorant/ mythical/ stupid I may be perceived :smiley:

My heart is filled with love and I love by example, I EVEN LOVE YOU SURYA :lol:

#74

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;35462]T

I didn’t say there was a doctrine of condemnation. What I said was aren’t you condemning people for their views if they are not Hindu? You keep saying Hinduism is the only one true religion on the planet. What happens to those who are not Hindu? Are they condemned to eternal darkness or nothingness? Do Hindus view all people divine regardless of their religious beliefs? If so, what does it matter what they believe?[/QUOTE]

No, telling somebody they are wrong is not condemnation. Just as telling a child he is wrong is not condemning the child.

Those who are not Hindu and are following other religions are not condemned to eternal darkness or nothing, they will simply have to remain in samsara for longer until they are fortunate enough to be born on the right path. And those who are following other religions, but are living as a Hindu should, they can get liberation.

A Hindu is fortunate because they are born in an enlightened religion and get to learn about the truth about who they are, where they have come from, where they are going and how to do it. Others, born into false religions get half truths and end up wasting a lot of their time on Earth.

#75

Scales, it means that the condemned are people who will be punished with eternal damnation by god, who god hates. It is easy to see how such teachings would lead to crusades, jihads etc.

As long as he have 2 billion+ people on this planet who believe in religions that have doctrines like this there will never be peace on this earth.

#76

Surya,

I understand, from your perspective. But we each have our own. Ah…it’s what make the world go round!

Maybe instead of saying things like ‘false’ religions it is more easily digestible to say ‘other religions’. Just a suggestion so that others don’t get offended. This will help with dialog and continued interesting discussion.

#77

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35440]I am not going to stop sharing my opinions. You can either put me on ignore, not respond to what I say, or just deal with it.

This is obviously not my problem. This is a problem with you, Lotus girl, Yogiadam and intolerance for hearing contradictory opinions. The impartial reader would agree.

The problem with you people is that you want to have your cake and eat it as well. You want to state opinions on a discussion forum, but you don’t want them to be challenged. You will argue, but when you can’t convince the other person, you want to bail out.

You can’t beat me in an argument, let’s just face the truth.

The points I have made are entirely valid

  1. Not all religions are equal
  2. Abrahmic religions are fundamentalist religions with a history of violence

Learn to deal with the truth. It will save you a lot of a grief.[/QUOTE]
it is funny and once again you have ignored or choose not to respond to one of my posts, why is that, is it because you have no suitable answer. and yet you say no one can beat you in an argument. to recap, who was the first master? no suitable answer to that one, you are always tired because?, no answer to that one. some arguments have no winner, so while we cant beat the great SD, the great SD cant beat us. . My request to you is that you relax in arguing so much. now it is time to go back to my regularly scheduled program, watching the river from the shore
I wish you the best SD

#78

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;35471]Scales, it means that the condemned are people who will be punished with eternal damnation by god, who god hates. It is easy to see how such teachings would lead to crusades, jihads etc.

As long as he have 2 billion+ people on this planet who believe in religions that have doctrines like this there will never be peace on this earth.[/QUOTE]

It’s easy for me to see how such teachings would lead to a more harmonious society. Considering time, place and agenda.

The crusades or jihads if you will, are usually started by the party that feels another party is doing wrong.

Invasions.

Imperialism.
Poking noses were they don’t necissicarily belong.

Oppression of basic human rights and so on.

#79

I have no problem in calling a spade a spade Lotusgirl. These other religions are false. The Hindus called it the demon religions(asura dharma). They spread false knowledge, violence and oppression.

#80

Well then, I guess from end this discussion is over.

Namaste