Intelligence and spirituality

Spirituality
#121

You shared this in one of your very earliest posts here: That you were desiring and searching for a teacher. I find what you’ve shared here in this quote to be both humble and self-reflective. And I have found that you’ve been very honest and consistent in sharing these facts, throughout any posts that I have read thoroughly. (Full disclosure, I do skip or skim many of threads that you’ve participate in because there tends to be too much provocation and agitation there-- flamed by many members–for me to want to keep company with at this stage of my pregnancy. Therefore, I am referring to only the threads and posts that I have read.)

If I could offer you a piece of unsolicited advice–something that you likely know for yourself already, something that you can take or leave–and that is to not forget that the mind is a tool, yes, but that your body and heart are wisdom-based tools as well.

It is obvious where your confidence and bias lies now, but my guess is this is because you have a sense of how tremendous and wise your heart is, which can make us all a bit giddy with fear and beautiful possibility. Surya, you are quiet radiant.

Being a Janai, you know that you will enter into your sadhana through your mind’s search, this is obviously right for you, but keep in your mind (this is a reminder, which i am taking again into myself too) that Janais will eventually merge with the Bhaktis and Karma Yogis, until it is all same-same-same. The Janai’s mind, the Bhakti’s heart and the Karma Yogi’s open-heartedness with the world will fully integrate and becoming interchangeable. Your bias toward the tool of your mind will fall away, and your logical mind will simply become a tool that you use when needed, as needed. It will just become one of many tools. And I know this to be true through the darshan I have kept with those who have achieved and sustain this, not through my own personal achievement at present. I am in practice with this too.

Surya, I do hope that you are blessed with a teacher whom you grow to love and respect; and who loves you and tends to you and your sadhana. May both your mind and your heart guide you to your teacher, and not blind you to the unexpected teacher. May you and your teacher both be blessed. And may we all be blessed.

Your own,
Nichole

#122

Surya Deva,

It is good to see you on the threshold of practice. Your 1% knowledge was dazzling at times and arguments quite engaging. Now the 99% practice would definitely make you a very enlightened man.

It should be no news to you that spiritual practice is replete with trials and errors. Knowing about many paths must have been fascinating, but following one poses severe challenge of making choices. When a follower approached Saint Jnaneshwar and told him he had finished reading Janeshwari, the Saint asked him ‘what have you experienced?’ To the confused follower then he said, ‘try and truly experience one stanza from it… it will take you a lifetime’.

Knowledge about Self is guna-driven and knowing Self is beyond guna; it is a long and arduous journey. To make room for Self, “I” has to dissolve. In your last 4 posts alone there are 35 "I"s.

May Ishvara give you courage and patience.

#123

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;41648]And look even you can’t maintain what Christianity teaches. Did you turn the other cheek there? Did you love your neighbour?

Face it, you’ve got nothing to teach me. I cannot learn a thing from you that I have not mastered already.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t this time, but previously weathered many insults, put-downs, and condescending comments from you, so I did have many successes in that regard, but you could not peceive my restraint and cannot perceive your own obnoxiosness.

You have immense knowledge of a belief system that I think is false, though well-intended and not without some truth, and I can be respectful of that and your good intentions to be the best you can be. But my spiritual growth and your spiritual growth should not include demeaning and insulting others who we perceive to have embraced error.

#124

Give up people. He said himself that there is nothing anyone on this forum can teach him. He has yet to experience what all the words crammed in his head has not been able to teach him. I suspect he will, at some future date, come to know first hand the story of Balaams jackass.

For my part, I am content to sit smiling as the clever Shakespearean fool dances and prances as a contstant source of amusement. Don’t spoil the fun :slight_smile:

#125

My two sons are good men, generally, all the things I wanted them to be.and all the things society generally expects me to raise them to be.
I had to correct them, at times when they were wrong. I wonder what they would be like if I hadn’t.
Would they still be the good men they are?

#126

[QUOTE=thomas;41682]I didn’t this time, but previously weathered many insults, put-downs, and condescending comments from you, so I did have many successes in that regard, but you could not peceive my restraint and cannot perceive your own obnoxiosness.

You have immense knowledge of a belief system that I think is false, though well-intended and not without some truth, and I can be respectful of that and your good intentions to be the best you can be. But my spiritual growth and your spiritual growth should not include demeaning and insulting others who we perceive to have embraced error.[/QUOTE]

Nor can you practice, “Thou shalt not judge”

I don’t blame you though. Nobody can practice what your religion teaches, because they are impractical. This is why you are slipping up all the time.

“Turn the other cheek” - Hell no, you give as good as you get.
“Love thy neighbour” - Yeah right, as soon as you perceive that your neighbour has attacked you, you strike them.

There is nothing wrong with you. You are human just like the rest of us. What is wrong is with your religion that teaches you things that go against your very nature. This is why I said I have nothing to learn from your religion. It’s useless to humans.

I have loads to learn from Hinduism, Buddhism and modern science. As it is rooted in human experience and reason. It is practical, rational, and it works. It is very useful to humans and this is why these religions have been widely accepted all over the world today.

Christianity was not accepted by anybody, it was forced on them. Convert or die. If we had a choice we would reject it. Nothing personal, but a religion which teaches that the cause of suffering and evil is a couple eating an apple from a tree and that tells you to deny your nature is naturally repungnant to the intellect.

Christianity could not take root in India because Indians had a better religion.

#127

Thank you for your good will and well wishes Nichole and Suhas :slight_smile:

#128

Nothing personal, but a religion which teaches that the cause of suffering and evil is a couple eating an apple from a tree and that tells you to deny your nature is naturally repungnant to the intellect.

That’s not what our religion teaches. Our religion teaches that the rebellion of man against God caused suffering and death to enter the world.

I’m not sure what “nature” you are referring to that we are to deny.

And where does it say “though shalt not judge”?

It’s wrong for me to judge you in the sense of saying you’re going to hell, but it’s not wrong to discern your behavior, and to point it out at times if necessary. It’s not wrong to call a spade a spade or a jackass a jackass, when necessary

#129

Matthew 7:1-6:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Luke 6:37, “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.”

You sure as hell are not following what your scripture tells you. And here is why not: it is impractical. Of course you need to judge.

I’m not sure what “nature” you are referring to that we are to deny.

The nature that if somebody wrongs you do not turn the other cheek, you retaliate. The nature that you cannot love your neighbour unconditionally, especially when you neighbour is opposed to your interests.

Face it Christianity cannot be followed literally. This is why there are 101 different interpretations of what your bible says and 101 different sects, in order to make sense of what is writtten nonsense.

#130

Surya, you have spent endless endless hours intellectually deriding other peoples faiths with intellectual emphatic precision…whilst you were doing this you showed little compassion for the hurt it was causing. Not everyone can detach themselves from the hurt as efficiently as you can.

I have very much admired your intellectual prowess, but, have been surprised by your very young soul that appears to accompany it.

#131

I do not yet know how to balance truth with compassion. It will come to me in due course in my evolution.

I do not think I am a young soul. Precisely because my vivek is very stong, and I am able to turn that vivek on myself and rectify myself, with the same ruthless objectivity as I turn it on others. The sign of objectivity and honesty is an indicator of an old soul. I asked my mother recently to give me her honest feedback on me as a person, because I was curious what I was like as a child. I take it with a pinch of salt as its my mother, but she said that my most notesworthy quality has always been my honesty. An honesty she finds very rarely in people. She also commended me for how I was able to change my life so many times all by myself, without little help.

If you recall the Brahmacharya thread I directed to you to show my evolution as a jnana yogi. The first stage of my life was depression and anxiety. I was able to come out of this phase of my life all by myself. They were already ready to put me on disability benefits and several years of psychotherapy. I attended half a dozen sessions before realising that I could do a better job than they could. When I talked to people there who were undoing similar therapy, I was appaled at how ineffective it was. Most people there had been there for decades and took glee when they told me what medication they were on. I then basically dropped my psychotherapist realising he could not help me, and decided to do a better job on myself. How many souls can do this? Few.

Then I became a new-ager. Practiced a “spiritual life” Listening to spiritual music, joining psychic development classes, socialising with new-agers, getting crystal healing, thinking positively. Yet, I could easily see through the superficiality of it all. I wanted more substance so I traced the evolution of new-age religion to its source: Hinduism. Read the primary texts studiously. Realised that it was OK to desire. Came across the left-hand-path and the teachings of Osho. Let myself go into utter hedonism, rejected spirituality. How many souls would do that? Few.

Then I simply lived like everybody else. Sex, drugs and rock and roll. Materialism to the hilt. Unabashed. But realised it was all transient and unsatisfying. Went through phases of genuine introspection, and by my own choice culled my hedonism(nobody forced me, I am my own man) How many souls do that? Few. Finally, pangs of spirituality hit me, genuine ones this time - not new age delusions of self-importance, but really painful feelings of emptiness and void. That I simply cannot fulfil with sex, drugs and rock and roll or with a few sessions of Yoga and meditation in the day. So I have made efforts such as going on weekend spiritual retreats, contacted Ashram and swamis and gurus in India. Next stop is a 10 day intensive vipasanna meditation course. Then off to India in search of a guru. How many souls would do this? Few.

Again I am not really boasting about my greatness, but seeing as you brought my spiritual development into question, I needed to clarify this. I am definitely not some enlightened soul, else I would have been born with pangs of spirituality from day one. But am I an old soul and a good soul. Yes. This was clear to everybody from my chilhood in how different I was to everybody else. Honest, innocent, jovial, loving, content. Then life experiences chocked me of my natural radience(Details are too personal and unimportant) and since it has been a journey to recapture that inner child. Despite the hiccups, most people who know me in real life, instantly realise this about me: I am always smiling and cheerful, I do not hold grudges, I am easy going.

I personally think I am a good and old soul. Most likely involved in some kind of spiritual practice in my past lives. But never going the full monty.

#132

Is intelligence an obstacle to spirituality ? I don’t know. Isn’t it intelligent to be spiritual ? Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.

#133

Surya…I do not yet know how to balance truth with compassion. It will come to me in due course in my evolution.

I am glad you have put this Surya because, in honesty, this is my only criticism of you.

I am willing to retract my statement that you are a young soul, mainly because how do I know? how does anyone know for sure, we only judge it by actions, words, deeds, I am sure it must be more complex than what meets the eyes or ears.

Honesty is a difficult thing in the world of spirituality and even when not.
I know people who always want to appear righteous but hide their true thoughts in silence, I have always assumed it is because they are sparing the other person from hurt and avoiding disruption of their own spiritual path.
On closer examination, is it being entirely honest? Do you check the person who is wrong or do you stay silent and leave them in their wrongness and potential ignorance so they do it over and over again…is that right? I am continually confused by this, especially when I joined this Forum. Hence my post #130. So I can see why you might find it difficult to separate truth and compassion. Perhaps it is as simple as the way it is delivered verbally or written. But then I need to correct that because even then it can still hurt a person, whichever tactful way you might deliver the truth.

I do think you are a good guy Surya x

I know you are a good guy, by the way.

#134

Then I simply lived like everybody else. Sex, drugs and rock and roll. Materialism to the hilt. Unabashed. But realised it was all transient and unsatisfying. Went through phases of genuine introspection, and by my own choice culled my hedonism(nobody forced me, I am my own man) How many souls do that? Few. Finally, pangs of spirituality hit me, genuine ones this time - not new age delusions of self-importance, but really painful feelings of emptiness and void. That I simply cannot fulfil with sex, drugs and rock and roll or with a few sessions of Yoga and meditation in the day. So I have made efforts such as going on weekend spiritual retreats, contacted Ashram and swamis and gurus in India. Next stop is a 10 day intensive vipasanna meditation course. Then off to India in search of a guru. How many souls would do this? Few.

You are not alone.

Many who have converted to Chrisitianity also lived sinful lives and ceased after their conversions.

Many Christians go on spiritual retreats and pilgrimage.

Many Christians understand that we are not to be attached to the things of this world, and strive for detachment and set their focus on God.

It’s admirable that you are on a spiritual quest, but there are many others who do likewise, and it is certainly not uique to your religion.

#135

[QUOTE=CityMonk;37573]I was thinking about relationships and interrelationships of these two.

The ego would defend intellect as a tool for acquiring spiritual knowledge. But the most truly spiritual people I ever met were in a deep-deep villages of different countries. They have never heard of any famous spiritual teachers, never read any books, never watched tv about “how to become spiritual” and etc.:wink:

But I still amazed by their pure spiritual faith, attitude towards the world and people around. It is absolutely fascinating how they keep their life simple and carry everyday routine tasks with a joy. (Of course, being spiritual in the rural mountain village is easier than in the “spiritual fever” of Modern World. There are so many “teachers” who want you to KNOW their way, read their books about how to get enlightened, watch endless utube videos of “jumping levitation miracle”, etc.

I think that we were born happy and “enlightened”, and connected with the spirit.:stuck_out_tongue:

The more we KNOW the LESS we tend to TRUST… :frowning:

Do you think that an intelligence is an obstacle on the spiritual path?:confused:[/QUOTE]

Please see if this from Imitation of Christ resonates with your post, CM:

EVERY man naturally desires knowledge; but what good is knowledge without fear of God? Indeed a humble rustic who serves God is better than a proud intellectual who neglects his soul to study the course of the stars. He who knows himself well becomes mean in his own eyes and is not happy when praised by men.

If I knew all things in the world and had not charity, what would it profit me before God Who will judge me by my deeds?

Shun too great a desire for knowledge, for in it there is much fretting and delusion. Intellectuals like to appear learned and to be called wise. Yet there are many things the knowledge of which does little or no good to the soul, and he who concerns himself about other things than those which lead to salvation is very unwise.

Many words do not satisfy the soul; but a good life eases the mind and a clean conscience inspires great trust in God.

The more you know and the better you understand, the more severely will you be judged, unless your life is also the more holy. Do not be proud, therefore, because of your learning or skill. Rather, fear because of the talent given you. If you think you know many things and understand them well enough, realize at the same time that there is much you do not know. Hence, do not affect wisdom, but admit your ignorance. Why prefer yourself to anyone else when many are more learned, more cultured than you?

If you wish to learn and appreciate something worth while, then love to be unknown and considered as nothing. Truly to know and despise self is the best and most perfect counsel. To think of oneself as nothing, and always to think well and highly of others is the best and most perfect wisdom. Wherefore, if you see another sin openly or commit a serious crime, do not consider yourself better, for you do not know how long you can remain in good estate. All men are frail, but you must admit that none is more frail than yourself.

http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imb1c01-10.html#RTFToC13

#136

Thomas, thank you very much for the post! this is what was eating me, because I found myself sometimes bragging with knowledge and intellect… and this article is helpful in resolving the issue.

are you a Thomas Keating by the chance:))) just kidding:)

#137

Thomas is not my real name. I don’t really like that name, but I chose it because I like Thomas Aquinas. But I had forgotten about the other Thomas–Thomas A Kemping, who wrote those words. There is much in his, “Imitation of Christ” that all those who are seeking souls would appreciate, I think, regardless of religion.

#138

oh, I did not paid attention that he wrote this article, just noted now:)) i just a big fan of him and I saw your avatar picture:) so it all reminded me of that other Thomas:)

#139

“The wise man knows he knows nothing, the fool thinks he knows all.”

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;41736]Surya Deva[/QUOTE]

The core message is simple. To be like Christ. It needs no other label.

Perhaps you should seek a true understanding of who and what Christ is before making such comparisons with buddhism and other religions.

It would also help for you to understand the true nature of the universe before undermining the teachings of Christ. Try the word ‘gnosis’ for example.

It is of my nature to crave heroin. This does not mean I am going to start shooting up simply because I have that desire. I understand the implications of a heroin addiction, thus even though it takes all of my strength to ‘say no’, it is a necessity. We teach children not to touch boiling water because it will hurt them, even though the child has no understanding of heat or pain.

Please do not fall for this Catholic/Christian illusion that has been created by mainstream society, but rather humble yourself, become child-like, but not child-ish, and seek truth.

#140

Ive just realised that when you enter a quote, there is a little arrow next to the persons name that you can click and it takes you to the original quote…how marvelous! and why didnt I know? This takes me to the intelligence part of this thread which I appear to have very little of :-x:-x:-x

Thank you Wonderland x