Clarification:
When I use the term “Magick” (with a k at the end) this is indeed the Magick as defined by Aleister Crowley.
I get the impression many people commenting in this thread have not read my first post. The thread is now diverging towards a new topic, namely tantra vs. yoga. Although there are some correspondences between Tantra and Magick they are certainly not the same, the rituals are very different etc.
It is known to me that Crowley in his later years got a rather strange reputation. That does not mean that the book Magick is of no value. As explained, in the first chapters thereof a comprehensive and mostly correct practice is described of yoga.
What for me is lacking is a good definition of what “Crowley” calls “will”. If you analyse the concept of “Will”, the ultimate “Will” can only be that of Brahman and not of our individual personality. To try to use the false Ego (Ahamkara) to get to enlightenment is a way most likely to be doomed. It is your biggest obstacle.
What I do appreciate about Tantra though is that by immersion in the senses you try to detach therefrom. Interesting techniques for destroying the Ego have been described by willfully allowing jealousy to occur so as to overcome the greed of the Ego. Read the book Tantric Yoga (ISBN 81-208-1231-4). Unlike SD I believe certain practices in tantra (not all, I certainly dislike the substance smearing activities, the eating of red meat at full moon etc.) have added value when it comes to overcoming our pettiness. That said, I am not ready for that, I continue practising the path of the traditional eight-fold Yoga. Note that I also do not practise Magick. However as you can see I invest time in exploring different spiritual traditions and distilling those few techniques that I can add as a supplement to my repertoire of techniques of yoga.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50027]
In Yoga there are no temporal goals of overcoming anger, then overcoming lust, then overcoming greed. [/QUOTE]
Perhaps not necessarily in a sequential manner, but Yamas and Niyamas imply that you do overcome these vices. It is the hardest and most essential part of yoga.
Yes, because Yoga is to be done in a holistic manner. In fact, theoretically Yoga can be done in a single sitting. However, few people in the world today have the physical health, time and energy to sit for several hours in meditation, let alone several months or several years.
Again there is only one goal in Yoga: self-realization by realising the divine reality.
[QUOTE=Awwware;50124]Clarification:
When I use the term “Magick” (with a k at the end) this is indeed the Magick as defined by Aleister Crowley.
I get the impression many people commenting in this thread have not read my first post. The thread is now diverging towards a new topic, namely tantra vs. yoga. Although there are some correspondences between Tantra and Magick they are certainly not the same, the rituals are very different etc.
It is known to me that Crowley in his later years got a rather strange reputation. That does not mean that the book Magick is of no value. As explained, in the first chapters thereof a comprehensive and mostly correct practice is described of yoga.
What for me is lacking is a good definition of what “Crowley” calls “will”. If you analyse the concept of “Will”, the ultimate “Will” can only be that of Brahman and not of our individual personality. To try to use the false Ego (Ahamkara) to get to enlightenment is a way most likely to be doomed. It is your biggest obstacle.
What I do appreciate about Tantra though is that by immersion in the senses you try to detach therefrom. Interesting techniques for destroying the Ego have been described by willfully allowing jealousy to occur so as to overcome the greed of the Ego. Read the book Tantric Yoga (ISBN 81-208-1231-4). Unlike SD I believe certain practices in tantra (not all, I certainly dislike the substance smearing activities, the eating of red meat at full moon etc.) have added value when it comes to overcoming our pettiness. That said, I am not ready for that, I continue practising the path of the traditional eight-fold Yoga. Note that I also do not practise Magick. However as you can see I invest time in exploring different spiritual traditions and distilling those few techniques that I can add as a supplement to my repertoire of techniques of yoga.[/QUOTE]
Do you really think God’s “will” wants “you” specifically to do something?
Your wrestling with this because down deep you know the right answer but it isn’t apparent (at this time) to your waking consciousness. When you reconcile this problem intellectually there will no longer be conflict. keep working through it.
Its the same with SD and his belief that “he’s God.” This creates internal conflict…
That will be 10 dollars.
[QUOTE=The Scales;50150]Do you really think God’s “will” wants “you” specifically to do something?[/QUOTE]Not necessarily to do something, but to avoid certain things. When I feel unrest, unhappiness, grief, sorrow, it would appear I am in disharmony with that “Will”.
[QUOTE=The Scales;50150]
That will be 10 dollars.[/QUOTE] The pursuit of material goods can only come from an obscured Mind. Tell me your price once you have attained samadhi.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50099]Absolutely. I am living a left hand type path right now myself, but to be honest my left hand path is what is normal for most people in Western society; sex, drugs and rock and roll. I do not drink blood out of human skulls, eat feaces, smear myself with ashes of dead people or eat corpses… just yet 
Anyway my point was to show the crucial differences between Yoga and tantra. Tantra is the original religion of primitive humans, involving magic, voodoo, drug taking, animal and human sacrifices, sexual practices etc, it is basically the human playing around with subtle forces without really understanding them. This eventually evolved into Yoga, at which point we understood what those subtle forces are.[/QUOTE]
Tantra has two clear paths: Vamachar & Dakshinachar. Vamachar is tilted towards what you have referred to as “religion of primitive humans, involving magic, voodoo, drug taking, animal and human sacrifices, sexual practices etc”. All our yogic practices have emanated from the Dakshinachar (the southern path also called the right handed path ( I dont know why ?). All Yoga asan’s, chakra philosophy etc are owed to Tantra. All Tantrics do not go around indulging in “degraded practices”. Nor all all tantric practices, even the vamachar ones for one’s enjoyment.
It would be a serious mistake at dismiss even all Vamachar as “primitive” and playing around with forces with no understanding. Consider tantric sex for example. It puts the female partner on par with the Devi. While there is penetration into the female yoni, tantric sex does not permit ejaculation. The purpose is quite the opposite- the absorption of the female juices by the male organ.
Similarily worshipping in a grave yard, drug taking, these are all practices aimed at enhancing one sensitiveness and presumably taking one into self realisation faster. Any serious Tantric aspirant knows that the danger to one 's own self in Tantra (vamachar) is much higher due to the speed with which it exposes one to new awareness zones. Practices like meditation etc are more of Dakshinachar and move more slowly but are safer.
Much of the bad name given to Tantra is on account of inadequate understanding by western researchers who, I suspect, have used sex and other practices to sell their books. I would suspect many of them have used only superficial research in their work. For genuine tantric seekers are difficult to find and even if found do not open up. These researchers have probably had some cursory meetings at the Kumbha mela or similar forums.
Genuine tantrics are difficult to find
I am aware of this distinction of tantra into left and right/black and white, but to be honest I think a lot of tantra practices blur the divide. I think they are just the Eastern equivalent of black and white magik. I see them as distinct from Yoga because Yoga has no distinctions, Yoga simply refers to any method that can cause the stilling of the mind and take you to self-realization by realising the divine reality.
I think historically. Trace the evolution of humans(at least in our current cycle) from the first modern humans in stoneage to to modern scientific humans. You will note that you will see the early modern humans did indeed have religion, but their religion consisted of worshipping fire and natural elements in the form of gods, animal and human sacrifices to gods. They accidentally would have stumbled upon drugs and learned about alternative realities(like the Australian and Native American aborigines) They would have had instead of sages witch docotors and a religion consisting of magik and voodo.
Later on, as the humans developed intellectually they formed a better understanding of religion. The gods they worshipped were then recognised as powers(devas) Rather than doing animal and human sacrifices, they realised inner-sacrifice through meditations. They developed understanding of how the world worked(prana, chakras, nadis; gross, subtle and causal; dharma, karma, samkhya) Yoga was the acme of their intellectual development of humans.
To me tantra represents a regression into primitive human religion. I see no need for it, when Raja Yoga is more than sufficient to get you to the final goal of spirituality: self realization by knowing divine reality.
Seriously what is difficult about Raja yoga? You sit and you simply witness and maintain this process until you reach the goal. Why unnecessarily overcomplicate it?
To me Tantra is for those who want to create their own rules to suit their own needs, perhaps because other paths require more discipline in the areas they are weak in…
[QUOTE=Awwware;50155]Not necessarily to do something, but to avoid certain things. When I feel unrest, unhappiness, grief, sorrow, it would appear I am in disharmony with that “Will”.
The pursuit of material goods can only come from an obscured Mind. Tell me your price once you have attained samadhi.[/QUOTE]
10 dollars.
You have no idea who I am. I gave you good advice chum. But you like most want to be a smart ass because it contradicts your thought processes.
[QUOTE=The Scales;50189]10 dollars.You have no idea who I am. I gave you good advice chum. But you like most want to be a smart ass because it contradicts your thought processes.[/QUOTE]
What is your intention with this remark?
Kareng,
"To me Tantra is for those who want to create their own rules to suit their own needs, perhaps because other paths require more discipline in the areas they are weak in… "
In coming to communion with the Way, there are no absolute standards. In this sense, every path is itself creating it’s own “rules”, it’s own approach in the expansion of consciousness.
As far as other disciplines requiring more effort, it is not really the case. This is in tself shows that one has not done enough research into the matter, let alone moved beyond knowledge and into practice. You are not the only one, several others here have also spoken of Tantra without doing the necessary research into the matter.
Most of the Tantric systems follow a specific methodology which requires in some cases even more effort and energy than the other yogic sciences. The other yogic sciences are focused either on coming to awakening through skillful means of intellect, or emotion, intuition, or instinct, or action, or meditation - but each of the approaches are one-dimensional. Raja Yoga is only centered around the intuition of meditation, jnana yoga around the intellect, bhakhti yoga around emotion, karma yoga around physical action - and they can all be used as gateways to the divine. Every part of one’s being can be used as a doorway to the beyond. But Tantra is and all or nothing matter. You either transform every dimension of your being, dealing with every part of your mechanism, or nothing at all. Nothing is to be rejected or repressed - one is to develop every part of one’s being, one’s body, one’s emotion, one’s intellect, one’s instinct, one’s intuition, and after developing all the parts, one is to bring them into equilibrium so that each part is functioning as a support for the whole structure. That is why the methods of Tantra tend to be more dangerous, because you are dealing with the mechanisms of your system with minute detail. And because everything in our system is interconnected, if there is just one small imbalance, it can create an imbalance in the whole system. That is why the possibility of either becoming overwhelmed with ego, or madness, insanity, or any number of psychological disorders is tremendous. It is not because the techniques are not potent, it is because they are tremendously potent. But potent energy in the wrong hands, without the right understanding, can be disasterous.
The reality is that if you are capable of using the methods of Tantra with the right understanding and intelligence, though it requires much more time and effort during the practice, in just a short time one’s expansion can be accelerated tremendously. It is like a short-cut, but while in the short-cut, you will have to invest every fiber of your being without wavering for even a moment. All of the methods which awaken Kundalini energy, which are all tantric, are intended for this. But the reason why very few ever come to it’s awakening is because of this - they were unable to exert the necessary amount of discipline that was needed. In fact, most people assume that “Kundalini” is something which is already there. It is not. It is something that has to be created. It is a kind of explosion that takes place once certain subtle energies of the body collide together, just as when hydrogen and oxygen collide together there is an explosion. But once one awakens the Kundalini with enough intensity, then one’s expansion is tremendous. In just a short amount of time, it is possible to come to one’s liberation where others may be striving for it for lifetimes.
[QUOTEAmirmourandAs far as other disciplines requiring more effort, it is not really the case. This is in tself shows that one has not done enough research into the matter, let alone moved beyond knowledge and into practice. You are not the only one, several others here have also spoken of Tantra without doing the necessary research into the matter.
[/QUOTE]
You are rude and inaccurate in your assumptions as to my level of practice but accurate as to my knowledge of Tantra… Its experience of individuals that practice it that has lowered my opinion of it…
kareng,
I was simply being straightforward. You are ignorant about the subject. You should do some research into the matter.
“Its experience of individuals that practice it that has lowered my opinion of it…”
One should absolutely dissolve all opinions on the matter. Tantra is a very vague term. It does not specify a particular method, but a whole range of different strategies and approaches. There seems to be only few common factors involved, one of which is the awakening of Kundalini - the other of which is using stimulation of the senses as a method for the expansion of consciousness. Otherwise it is like a vast science which subdivides into many streams, just as there is chemistry, physics, biology, biophysics, algebra, geometry, and so on. And the use of any field of knowledge, of any method, is largely dependent on the kind of mind which is using it. One should be able to discriminate between the method itself, and the way the method is being used. Often times, because of a misguided few, the whole technology is condemned without understanding that it can be used in a million different ways.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;50171] (a) Yoga simply refers to any method that can cause the stilling of the mind and take you to self-realization by realising the divine reality.
(b)To me tantra represents a regression into primitive human religion. I see no need for it, when Raja Yoga is more than sufficient to get you to the final goal of spirituality: self realization by knowing divine reality.
©Seriously what is difficult about Raja yoga? You sit and you simply witness and maintain this process until you reach the goal. Why unnecessarily overcomplicate it?[/QUOTE]
(a) Yoga’s etymology lies in the Sanskrit Yuk-meaning union - implied- union of atman with Parmatman. I am not sure I agree with you that it refers to any method at all. except in a very generic sense like say the words Physics or Chemistry. I know you are extensively read so all this is something you already know, but I am just penning it for the sake of summarisation:- Broadly (1)there is the Patanjali’s method of ashtaanga yoga which be begins by defining yoga as the stilling of modifications of the mind. (2) There are the paths as mentioned in Bhagavad Geeta -Bhakti, Karma and Gyan (Rajayoga as this is referred to by Swami Vivekananda) (3) the more estoteric path of Tantra. Please correct me if I have missed something.
(b) Gyan /Raja Yoga is the cleanest path - I agree with you. But it is not the path for all, since it is requires a great deal of mental clarity and powers of concentration. If you will recall Lord Krishna’s words:-
Lokasmine dwidha nishta,
pura prokta mayanagha,
Gyanyogena sankhya nam
Karmayogena yoginam.
The path of knowledge is therefore for the person who is strongly intellectually inclined, while the path of work (karma) is for the rajasic person, who is very active. Similarily there are persons who are very loving by nature and for these people the path of Bhakti is suited. You are fortunate that your temparement lets you use the path of gyan/raja yoga. But not all can do it. There are people whose karmic nature is more suited for Tantra. I do agree that it is natural to feel a bit offended by many of the tantric rites, but let us leave it to them and wish them all the best. (Human and animal sacrifices excluded- No one who cannot give life has any right to take it.-Basic precept).
© As I said earlier, this is the cleanest way and being followed by millions of people, but it can be combined with great benefit with either karma or Bhakti Yoga.
reaswaran,
You are right, Yoga does not refer to any particular method. If you come to a state of consciousness where you are in direct living communion with your original nature, that is a state of yoga. Any method that can be used as a means towards one’s awakening is a method towards Yoga.
is your choad clean? Thats what I want to know. Because without a clean choad how on earth are you going to actualize your potential divinity and become GOD and have your own planet and stuff with slaves you can control to do your bidding?
Gotta have a clean choad for that. No ifs ands or butts. THE CHOAD MUST BE SPOTLESS.
Ain’t - no - Taint - on my Choad.
In all seriousness. The external rituals associated with Tantric Cults are for the foolish. Seriously.
HA. HA.
Drinking from a skull cup? Ritual group sex? Following the Calendar to the TEEE?
Yeah have fun with that…
lol…
I had to look that word up.
Here is what i uncovered:-
‘a penis that is wider than it is long.’
Yip, somewhat obscure what you’ve written but it sort of makes sense.Not too sure about the choad bit but i guess that could just be slang-speak in Bengal Paradise…
Tantra in all it’s scope and it is a vague term that could refer to many practices incl. yoga is probably misuunderstood because of a)ignorance and b)combined with that fact that there are probably few who practice it in all it’s scope…possibly because you need to do alot of requisite training and cultivation for it. It’s not impossible but you need to do the reasearch, put in the work.So those that know are sometimes reticent about speaking about the sexual aspect of it but not always because they can see how man and woman is controlled by ut…by lust etc. And to frown on tantra is like denying we are governed by these lower forces.
I cannot see how you can use tantra or sexual tantra for that matter for egotisitical selfish non-spiritual purposes. It is simply not possible, a contradiction, at least without karmic repercusions.
The thing is the odds are that a man & a woman needs requisite training and the odds of these happening and the two coming toegther become even rarer.Traditionally in Kashmir say the student was taught or initiaated by a woman guru adept, the goddess, who intiated the disciple but not after a certain period of training beforehand.At least i don’t know alot about it but that’s what i did read from one source. I think it’s probably increasingly hard to find this unless you joined some kind of cult or ventured to the East.What is in the west is neo tantra and the empahsis tends to be more towards sex in itself.For example there’s no meditation or asana etc.Someone gives you a massage and it’s called tantra.It does’nt involve raising base energies up to cause mini-orgasm explosions in the brain.
I would’nt want people to think i’m making this up.But there’d be training and energy invested in this before the person(s) was ready…Uusually one partner is behind the other and needs more training , more cultivation.They could just sit in an embrace. They don’t need to have sex.A couple can just look at each other.
Yoga is a personal practice and you are the one who chooses how you want to practice. It is called a practice because there is no perfection to achieve. You simply practice to learn more and the physical results will manifest in time. True, there are correct ways to do poses; however, each body is made differently. Therefore, what works for one person may not work for another. You make it work for yourself and never worry about what the person next to you is doing, for they are on their own journey as well. The beautiful truth is that you simply get to share each other?s positive energy. The energy that radiates around your body exists and you know what it feels like to be near someone with negative energy. During a good group yoga practice, positive energy is generated and it literally expands to fill the room and it is very gratifying and uplifting.
aaa
[QUOTE=The Scales;50659]is your choad clean? Thats what I want to know. Because without a clean choad how on earth are you going to actualize your potential divinity and become GOD and have your own planet and stuff with slaves you can control to do your bidding?
Gotta have a clean choad for that. No ifs ands or butts. THE CHOAD MUST BE SPOTLESS.
Ain’t - no - Taint - on my Choad.
In all seriousness. The external rituals associated with Tantric Cults are for the foolish. Seriously.
HA. HA.
Drinking from a skull cup? Ritual group sex? Following the Calendar to the TEEE?
Yeah have fun with that…[/QUOTE]
Scream …hahahahahaha