Is the OT the most barbaric and savage scripture in the world?

Spirituality Religion
#76

It is to be noted and something I would like to bring to the attention of the objective reader of the type kinds of claims that are seen in threads in the religion forum. They are

  1. Claims which are supported with evidence such as citations, logical arguments, empirical evidence, historical evidence. These claimants put in the most effort to make sure they make a coherent case supported by evidence to support their claims. They often write in neutral/academic style of language and are critical

  2. Claims which are not supported with evidence. These claimants put in the least effort and do not feel they need to make a coherent case. They engage in little more than rheotric, character assassination or supposition. They often appeal to known formal and informal fallacies, such as the appeal to faith. They often write in emotional style of language and are not critical of differences.

This thread is an example of 1 for a claim has been made that the OT is a barbaric and savage scripture, and then evidence is provided by citing from a peer reivewed expert source on religion which has collected passages in the OT where barbaric and savage acts are described explicitly such as Moses ordering people to kill 32,000 children in front of their mothers, then having the mothers killed and then having 32,000 young women taken captive to be raped.

Biblical scholars have been referenced who have documented the number of savage and barbaric passages in the OT, and have verified that such savagry and barbarism is the most commonly mentioned activity described in the OT.

The objective reader will clearly see that the case the OP has made has been demonstrated beyond a reason of doubt.

#77

Hi Surya Deva,
I have spent a bit of time now and read some of your posts. The earliest one was July 2010 “Living Masters-authentic traditions”. Here is your post for your memory:

Namaste,

I[I] would really appreciate any help or pointers from members here on whether you know any living masters or authentic spiritual traditions that I can join.
I am looking to spend up to 2 years or more practicing in the tradition under a master, during which I do not want any involvement in the world, I just want to dedicte myself to my spiritual practice.

Do you know of any such tradition and masters where I can do this? [/I]

From your most recent posts I have learnt that you are a Hindu, of Hindu parents, but born in England? So why do you go on-line and ask us people from the West to find an authentic living master? Surely your Hindu community in England would have plenty of Yoga Masters at hand?

You changed from your first post (humbly asking advice)into a venom spitting Hindu Cobra! I don’t like the Old Testament myself, but I think you are way too fanatical. And I really don’t understand why you ask this forum to provide you with an authentic Yoga Master, when you no doubt have Hindu contacts in England and abroad?? A simple google search will give you plenty of so called “Yoga Masters”.

My Ex-Master’s name is Swami Maheshwarananda, founder of Yoga in Daily Life. www.yogaindailylife.org. You will probably fit in quite well there. Elisabeth

#78

SD,

You claimed that bestiality was condoned in the Bible, when in fact it is condemned.

I asked you many times to address this, and you ignorned it.

Careless assertions like this make me wonder if you are careless in other assertions, and makes me question your credibility. Some credibility could be restored if you could admit you made a mistake.

#79

in the OT where barbaric and savage acts are described explicitly such as Moses ordering people to kill 32,000 children in front of their mothers, then having the mothers killed and then having 32,000 young women taken captive to be raped.

Let’s take this incident and see if we can put it in perspective and find some context.

Please cite the verse and chapter from the Bible, and I’ll see what I can do with it.

#80

You should never underestimate how much others may be able to help you. I have done plenty of research myself for living or authentic masters, and part of my research has been asking around people who know them. This is a Yoga forum and it is one of the best places to ask as there is good possibility people here have contacts with masters.

It is ironic that I am the one fanatical and yet I am the one of the few on this forum who is condemning genocide, racism, superstition, censorship and fighting for free thinking, progress and democracy. The truth is, people like you who admit they do not like the OT, have not let their voice be heard. You speak up against false-gurus and even have made a web site against them, but you do not speak up against the obvious barbarism and savagry in the OT, in fact on the contrary you speak up against the one speaking against it.

The problem with many people on this forum is they censor all criticism of the Abrahamic religions. Anybody criticising these religions is demonized. It is clear then that these people have vested interests in maintaining Abrahamic values - yes the same Abrahamic values which lead to the crusades, inqusitions, witch burnings and Moses ordering the torture, slaughter and rape of 32,000 children, mothers and virgins. The same Abrahamic values that are responsible for the dire state of the world today.

When you set up a web site to rile against the above than I will take your criticisms of myself more seriously.

[QUOTE=elisabeth111;46526]Hi Surya Deva,
I have spent a bit of time now and read some of your posts. The earliest one was July 2010 “Living Masters-authentic traditions”. Here is your post for your memory:

Namaste,

I[I] would really appreciate any help or pointers from members here on whether you know any living masters or authentic spiritual traditions that I can join.
I am looking to spend up to 2 years or more practicing in the tradition under a master, during which I do not want any involvement in the world, I just want to dedicte myself to my spiritual practice.

Do you know of any such tradition and masters where I can do this? [/I]

From your most recent posts I have learnt that you are a Hindu, of Hindu parents, but born in England? So why do you go on-line and ask us people from the West to find an authentic living master? Surely your Hindu community in England would have plenty of Yoga Masters at hand?

You changed from your first post (humbly asking advice)into a venom spitting Hindu Cobra! I don’t like the Old Testament myself, but I think you are way too fanatical. And I really don’t understand why you ask this forum to provide you with an authentic Yoga Master, when you no doubt have Hindu contacts in England and abroad?? A simple google search will give you plenty of so called “Yoga Masters”.

My Ex-Master’s name is Swami Maheshwarananda, founder of Yoga in Daily Life. www.yogaindailylife.org. You will probably fit in quite well there. Elisabeth[/QUOTE]

#81

Please cite the verse and chapter from the Bible, and I’ll see what I can do with it.

All citations are provided in the OP, with excerpts from the bible.

#82

[QUOTE=elisabeth111;46526]
Namaste,

I[I] would really appreciate any help or pointers from members here on whether you know any living masters or authentic spiritual traditions that I can join.
I am looking to spend up to 2 years or more practicing in the tradition under a master, during which I do not want any involvement in the world, I just want to dedicte myself to my spiritual practice.

Do you know of any such tradition and masters where I can do this? [/I]

From your most recent posts I have learnt that you are a Hindu, of Hindu parents, but born in England? So why do you go on-line and ask us people from the West to find an authentic living master?..[/QUOTE]

LOL you think some master will be able to break your ego’s Hindutva conditioning?

Whoa, the correlations between SD & Teitan become more and more clear.
It’s kinda creepy actually… :eek:

#83

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;46552]All citations are provided in the OP, with excerpts from the bible.[/QUOTE]

OK, I’ll check it.

But does your claim that bestiality is condoned in the OT still stand, or do you withdraw it? Or are you going to continue to weasel on this one? Weasels have little credibility in my book.

#84

FINALLY!!!

:smiley:

#85

[QUOTE=thomas;46557]OK, I’ll check it.

But does your claim that bestiality is condoned in the OT still stand, or do you withdraw it? Or are you going to continue to weasel on this one? Weasels have little credibility in my book.[/QUOTE]

I will withdraw that statement for now. I do recall a reference to beastality in the OT once, but I think my memory maybe in error as I cannot find anything of the sort in the recent research I did.

#86

Thank you. That’s being intellectually honest, and you have restored my faith in Hindus, message board posters, and mankind in general.

#87

Surya,
I am new to the forum, but I was quite shocked to the read the title of this thread. The first post in this thread was a bullet point list of the everything that is wrong in the OT. While I agree that there a lot of things wrong in the OT, how does this thread help you with your path to enlightenment? It seems want to list everything wrong with someone’s religious text, but cannot take any criticism of your own. If you think that someone who criticizes your religious text is racist against Hindus, then the claim can be made that you are anti-semitic.

#88

I can take criticisms of my own religion and invite it :slight_smile: If I can answer the criticism, then I will, if not I will accept it.

I am surprised however by people on a Yoga forum who lightly take to genocide in OT scriptures :wink:

As I said elsewhere if I had found anything even remotely as bad as the OT in my own religious scripture I would
have dropped my religion in a heart beat.

#89

It is understandable that some people are in shock with respect to the contents of this post. It is always so with Westerners, who love pointing out the supposed supremacy and fanaticism in others and the faults of other belief systems when they clearly have their own share of Western supremacist views and ideological faults. After all, who likes hearing the negative aspects of their own belief systems? Grow up fools. We Hindus in the Western world have dealt with enough of your “holier-than-thou” attitudes and have had more than enough of any misconceptions and ignorance on Hinduism and our ways. Courtesy of the Christian run media. Learn to accept the faults within your religions and learn to recognize the hypocrisy you utter every time you open your mouths to denounce other religions and people who are outspoken against the intolerance in yours.

You think what I say is false? Look at the posts of some of those supposedly egalitarian and Universalistic people on this forum. Comments have been made on the right of the West to do whatever it wants. Comments have been made degrading our culture, skin color, and religion. And yet I hear no comments on those posts. Sad. No wonder the West, especially the oh-so-powerful-and-great America, is falling.

#90

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;46665]It is understandable that some people are in shock with respect to the contents of this post. It is always so with Westerners, who love pointing out the supposed supremacy and fanaticism in others and the faults of other belief systems when they clearly have their own share of Western supremacist views and ideological faults. After all, who likes hearing the negative aspects of their own belief systems? Grow up fools. We Hindus in the Western world have dealt with enough of your “holier-than-thou” attitudes and have had more than enough of any misconceptions and ignorance on Hinduism and our ways. Courtesy of the Christian run media. Learn to accept the faults within your religions and learn to recognize the hypocrisy you utter every time you open your mouths to denounce other religions and people who are outspoken against the intolerance in yours.[/QUOTE]

I in no way think that I am superior to anyone else. Nor do I follow a specific belief system, especially a Judeo/Christian one. I also do not take genocide lightly in any form for any reason. Many wars have been fought and many people have died in the name of religions across the globe. I also have a problem with the “Christian Run Media” in the US. I think it is despicable. I have always questioned the views of others especially my christian acquaintances. I consider myself a citizen of the earth. I am simply intolerant of intolerance.

#91

[QUOTE=Star Light;46666]I in no way think that I am superior to anyone else. Nor do I follow a specific belief system, especially a Judeo/Christian one. I also do not take genocide lightly in any form for any reason. Many wars have been fought and many people have died in the name of religions across the globe. I also have a problem with the “Christian Run Media” in the US. I think it is despicable. I have always questioned the views of others especially my christian acquaintances. I consider myself a citizen of the earth. I am simply intolerant of intolerance.[/QUOTE]

As am I Star Light. Intolerant of intolerance. A phrase I have used to describe myself multiple times. But the Western World is the environment you grew up in and no Westerner is entirely free of even the slightest bit of Christianized/Western bias and PC. I understand it is hard for you to come out of the shell of Universalism and the belief of the equality of all religions. But how else would you characterize a scripture with such barbaric and evil content in it, content that is more prevalent in that particular scripture than in any other scripture? A scripture, (along with the NT), that was responsible for galvanizing crusades, genocides, witch burnings, colonialism/imperialism justifications, White supremacy, and so forth? More or less barbaric? More or less wrong than others? No. Simply barbaric and wrong. Relativism does not (not should it be used) need to be used in a belief system that is the most prevalent in the world (and the cause of much ruin).

#92

Funny, most Christians think of the US media a liberal and godless. They don’t seem to be friendly towards Christians at all.

#93

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;46681]As am I Star Light. Intolerant of intolerance. A phrase I have used to describe myself multiple times. But the Western World is the environment you grew up in and no Westerner is entirely free of even the slightest bit of Christianized/Western bias and PC. I understand it is hard for you to come out of the shell of Universalism and the belief of the equality of all religions. But how else would you characterize a scripture with such barbaric and evil content in it, content that is more prevalent in that particular scripture than in any other scripture? A scripture, (along with the NT), that was responsible for galvanizing crusades, genocides, witch burnings, colonialism/imperialism justifications, White supremacy, and so forth? More or less barbaric? More or less wrong than others? No. Simply barbaric and wrong. Relativism does not (not should it be used) need to be used in a belief system that is the most prevalent in the world (and the cause of much ruin).[/QUOTE]
All religions have caused harm. Yes I agree that the OT in some parts is barbaric, but I also believe that all war is wrong. Whether you kill one person or kill 1,000 it’s still wrong. Also, you have no idea how I was raised. Not everyone who is from the US has the same values. I was raised to have an open mind and to love all. I agree that the US media is very much run by Christians and anyone that questions it is squashed quickly. I do not like being lumped into a box of your typical westerner. I am not. I truly believe no religion is better than another. They all have their faults.

#94

[QUOTE=thomas;46698]Funny, most Christians think of the US media a liberal and godless. They don’t seem to be friendly towards Christians at all.[/QUOTE]

I am defining media as methods of communication that influence the masses. It is obvious that US media has Christian biases. Even those who are godless and liberal have blatantly obvious Christian biases.

Look around you. Hatred against homosexuals, people thinking their country was founded on Christian ideals, people believing in the superiority of their precious “Christian” values, and so forth. You would be surprised what people really think once you begin to speak with candor about such topics. That shows you how biased the media and the education system is.

I even had a Chinese guy come and tell me he believed Whites, and pretty much everything they touched, were superior. He began to spout SUCH misconceptions…misconceptions I used to have when I stuck to what Western schools and media “taught” and implied; until I did research and found out the truth for myself.

#95

I truly believe no religion is better than another. They all have their faults.

Then show us any equivalent Hindu scripture that ordains genocide and rape of women. If you cannot, then clearly we have a case here that Hinduism is a more peaceful and civilised religion than Christianity.