Is the West becoming more spiritual?


#41

In response to the accelerating debate and certain amount of flaming here, I agree with SD about India - but you should keep your cool, which you recently lost :confused:

The times are changing. All we need to acknowledge is to acknowledge the storm that is about to come, rather than dwelling in the past, trying to escape toward an unlikely future. There is no point in resisting. It’ll soon be over and the required space for the new men will be open…


#42

The reason I am so harsh on India, despite being an avid lover of this country, is that that we cannot deny the blatantly obvious drawbacks of this country. 374 million people being illiterate and 800 million people living in poverty is not a small problem at all. It is a massive one and to pretend that this does not exist, and just look at the 30% Indian middle class is highly disingenious and deluded. If the Indians here are true patriots, and I am very patriotic, they would acknowledge the problems India has. When they acknowledge the problems, that is half of the solution.

But for Indian members here to a sit here and gloat foolishly about the army of engineers and doctors they produce and their great middle class is actually sickening. It means they do not realise the gravity of how severe India’s problems are. To sit there on their high horse criticising the West and condemning the West, when India has much severe problems, and not even acknowledging the positives about the West is the height of stupidity. This is why I have lost my cool with them.


#43

Surya Deva, my opinion of you just dropped to an all-time low. I am criticizing the West and you don’t see me flaming everyone and making racist remarks.

Okay, I am going to drop the the politeness now. Even my mother, bless her soul, gets this very basic point that poor people want wealth and rich people want spirituality. This is hardly rocket science. Your average chaiwala and riskhawala does not give a damn about Yoga and Vedanta, because you know what? They live in a country where more than 800 million people make less than 2 dollars a day and struggle to make ends meet.

I am honestly starting to think Indian is full of morons if they cannot even accept this fact about themselves. Stop talking about India’s so-called rise, when 374 million people cannot read or write, 800 million people are extremely poor and 100-200 million live in slums.

I have said it from the start, I have never liked Indians. I have consistently found Indians to be the most stupidest, rudest, ignorant and arrogant people I have had to deal with. I am not saying all Indians are like this, but the few Indians that are posting here on this forum are not doing much to my change my mind.

Now, that you know SD is no more playing mr nice guy. Lets proceed to answer your points.

Yes. Indians are nothing but bastards. Look at their skin color! Nandini must have taken a big shit on them. They are one-step removed from Hell and almost on the level of the blacks. In the name of Allah and Jesus, they must be wiped out. So sick I am of their monopolization of 7-11, the medical and scientific fields, their 1.1 billion magnitude dark blot upon the world, and other innumerable evils and depravities! They are the spawn of Satan and Shaitans and the world would not be the worse for having eliminated those sub-humans!

Surya Deva, you do not love India. You are nothing but a wannabe white supremacist. I honestly think you would would have been better of being born as an anti-Indian Pakistani. First, you say that the West is more spiritual than India because of certain trends that are intrinsic to the Western landscape alone, and in no way the result of Vedic influence. Then you say America is the epitome of the West and its “spirituality” while pointing out that it is becoming a third world country, in direct contradiction with your shepherd Maslow and his theories. You say you love India while pointing out its infrastructural/societal faults and making it seem these faults are increasing and not declining. You criticize India’s rise into another Western country, when it is the Western countries you adore and seem to think is the pinnacle of civilization/morality/spirituality. Tell me something. You seem to criticize India’s supposedly declining spirituality while ignoring the fact that India, like the West it emulates, will eventually, according to your theories and those of Maslow, become tired of materialism and go back to spirituality. I realized that you had anti-Indian biases at this point in our lovely debate in the “Hindutva” thread, but, of course, did not wish to point this out (after all, you were doing a fine job of showing them yourself). Nice job of being racist towards yourself.

Why do I criticize the West? Because of its arrogance. Its jingoism. Its willful ignorance. Arrogance/ignorance is worse than all the evils in this world combined. The West’s arrogance caused it to conquer other countries and “civilize” them. Their arrogance is the reason Christians are what they were and are. Their arrogance is the reason blacks were lynched/abused/enslaved/denied rights for 3 centuries, aborigines/Native Americans wiped out, white supremacy flourishes, and so forth. Their arrogance is the reason they continue to exploit other countries, gloat about their present status, and ignore their steady decline. Their arrogance is the reason they continue to reject proven scientific theories such as Evolution/BBT and resort to Creationism (which 80 million Americans, around 25%) to give them a fuzzy and warm feelings on the inside.

Lets get something straight. India is every bit of a shit-hole as you say it is. When I was a kid, I hated the place. Rude ass people, obtuse, superstitious, etc, etc. When I was growing up here, I was ashamed of being Indian. At one point, I wanted to CONVERT out of Hinduism and become a Buddhist. All I saw in my religion was nothing but idol/cow worship.

But, as High Wolf has stated, times are changing. India is slowly getting better. Give it time. It is only 1-2 decades into its rise, which is hardly anything important in the grand scheme of things. The old ways are dying out and the true religion of Hinduism is emerging. Sure there are bumps along the ride, with the average trend is that of “better.” The recent corruption scandal uncovered in India is a good sign for the BJP. Hopefully, Modi will be elected and lift the red-tape on business and promote more economic growth within India (Gujarat already has a 11% growth rate, the highest). As for America, it is as my dad put it: “When I came to America, this country was powerful. There was no better place in the world. Now she is a dying remnant of her former glory.” Ignorance is rising daily. More and more people are starting to become religious dogmatic Christians. Pornography is more rampant than ever. Divorce rates are at an all-time high. More and more people are starting to doubt science and mathematics and resorting to denial of GB/BBT/Evolution. This is the reality.

The bottom point is that the West has greater temperamental problems. India has greater infrastructural/material problems and it is our duty to prod it in the right direction. I myself plan to lend aid to India wherever I can. I have not the slightest clue where to start, but hopefully the opportunity will present itself before me after I am done with my degree and have secured myself a stable lifestyle.

By the way, your opinion of which is “better” is based on superficial aspects such as literacy/poverty/etc and your experiences in poor places in India.


#44

[QUOTE=High Wolf;52597]I disagree on this. There is shit load of evidence out there confirming that the current global warming and climate change as the direct cause of human industrial activity taking place for the last 200 years. If not satisfied, and wanna delve the issue, ‘IPCC’ website is a good start :smile:[/QUOTE]

Omg. I can’t believe my eyes! Finally, someone who sees reason. Why are you so amazing HW?


#45

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;52518]Neitzsche, I thought you were a young, critical and progressive Hindu thinker. I now think you are an ignorant, immature, hypocritical Indian nationalist. There is simply no justification to the massive amount of ignorance and hypocrisy you have shown regarding

  1. The problems that exist in India regading poverty, illiteracy, inequality, and the China threat.
  2. Your dismissal of an otherwise well known movement in the West of growing spirituality

First, I thought you were just not aware, so as I’ve always done in very discussion I presented you the information. I presented you tons of data on the China threat and loads of links for you to peruse. Initially, you poo-pooed it and demanded credible sources(even though my original post contained mostly credible sources) and then I provided you more and you still did not concede my point that China is a threat to India. I provided you tons of data on Indians problems, told you about mine and my families experience with corruption in India at Indian airports etc, and then you accused me of visiting some really poor part of India(which part of India is not poor?) I then posted links to other peoples experiences who have experieced the same corruption at all Indian airports, and you dismissed it as not credible. I had told you about my Western spiritual friends, first of all you accused my Western spiritual friends of being sinister, I did not take offence but thought it was a genuine misunderstanding. I then tried to put you in touch with the Western spiritual movement(beginning from the Romantic movemement), provided you demographical data, and then youtube links to some of the leading figures in Western spirituality and their material, only to be told by you they are quacks, hippies and pseudoscientists(What does that make all of Hindu gurus then?) and dismissing the movement as just environmental activism(did you actually even click on the links I gave?) and then finally the icing on the cake, you admit you are not spiritual.

Hang on if you are not spiritual, then how the heck are you Hindu? You’re hypocrite, that is what you are. You condemn the West constantly as evil, immoral, ignorant, and yet are in high praise of Western thinkers like Neitzsche, Newton, Einstein and celeberate capitalism, industralism and Western science and materialism.

You have shown yourself to be a dishonourable debater and have lost lot a lot of respect with me. It is highly rich you sould complain about others being ignorant or not facing up to the facts, considering your behaviour in this and the Hindutva thread. You have indeed shown your age. Much less a progressive and critical thinker, you have shown yourself to be a spoiled rich brat from Hyderabad with a very big mouth. Heck, if US is so bad, what are you doing there for the past 11 years? Do you have plans to move back to India? Doesn’t sound like it.

And for the record global warming and evolution is indeed questionable. Not just your “ignorant American peers” but several scientists have also bought them into question. In the documentary entitled, “An inconveniant truth” a bunch of ranking scientists ridicule this idea of global warming, showing that there have been several periods in the past when the Earth’s temperature was much warmer. Other scientists claim that the notion that carbon emissions are causing global warming is nonsense, but global warming is being caused by activity on the sun, which is causing other planets in our solar system to also experience it.

I am not going to bother providing you anymore information, facts and figures or arguments on this discussion. You are unreasonable, so I will not reason with you.[/QUOTE]

Surya Deva, I thought you were a wise, mature, critical and progressive Hindu thinker. I now think you are an ignorant, immature, hypocritical Western supremacist. There is simply no justification to the massive amount of ignorance and hypocrisy you have shown regarding:

  1. The lessening problems in India regading poverty, illiteracy, inequality, and the lack of a China threat.
  2. Your touting of an otherwise dying movement in the West.

First, I thought you were just not aware, so as I’ve always done in very discussion I presented you my experiences and fact. You presented me tons of unreliable and false data on the China threat and loads of links for you to peruse. I poo-pooed it and demanded credible sources and then you provided me more false facts. Still you do not understand the point that China is a not threat to India. You then provided me tons of data on Indians problems, told me about your and your families experience with corruption in India at Indian airports etc, and so I assumed that you visited Northern Indian parts of the country because I have never experienced this myself in South India. You then posted links to other peoples experiences who have experienced the same corruption at all Indian airports, and I dismissed it as not credible because it was the opinions of about 3-4 people on two links and on 1 airport in the other. You told me about your Western spiritual friends when I accused Westerners of being sinister in intent, bound by dogma as they are. You then tried to put me in touch with the Western spiritual movement (or the lack thereof) (beginning from the Romantic movement), provided me with demographical data (while assuming that there was a relationship between movements intrinsic to the fabric of the West and Vedic mindsets), and then youtube links to some of the leading figures in Western spirituality and their material, and I informed you of the fact that they are quacks, hippies, and pseudo-scientists, like most gurus, even Hindu ones, that the media whores on these days. I told you that certain aspects of such trends were a continuation of environmental activism from post-WW2 (did you actually even take a history course?). In response to your inquiry, I admitted I am not spiritual because I am a young teenager whose first priority is to get good grades, get scholarships so my parents don’t have to pay as much, and get into a good college. In other words, although I am spiritual in ideals, I am not in practice. Rest assured though, I have spirituality in mind once I have passed the appropriate stages in my life.

Hang on if you are spiritual, then why the heck are you resorting to intemperate invectives and racist attacks on YOUR race? You’re a hypocrite, that is what you are. You condemn India constantly as evil, immoral, ignorant, and yet are in high praise of its traditions, culture, Hinduism, philosophy, and so on and so forth.

You have shown yourself to be a dishonourable debater and have lost lot a lot of respect with me. It is highly rich you sould complain about others being ignorant or not facing up to the facts, considering your behaviour in this and the Hindutva thread. You have indeed proven true the maxim that “Age is not a measure of ability.” Much less a progressive and critical thinker, you have shown yourself to be an ignorant and overly-pretentious and dogmatic man with the mind of a 10 year old and with a very big mouth. Heck, if India is so bad, what are you doing practicing Hinduism? Do you have plans to convert to Christianity or get a skin change operation? Doesn’t sound like it.

And for the record global warming and evolution is indeed unquestionable. It is unfortunate that Americans and several scientists have been influenced by the growing trend of ignorance in the West. In the documentary entitled, “An inconvenient truth” Al Gore proved that Global warming is not just an ordinary climatic fluctuation characteristic of certain eras, but the product of increasing levels of destructive human activity.

I am not going to bother providing you anymore information, facts and figures or arguments on this discussion. You are unreasonable, so I will not reason with you.


#46

[QUOTE=reaswaran;52586]This and the outburst of rage in your earlier posts shows the immaturity of your mind. And you practice yoga ha ?[/QUOTE]

I am afraid that there are many on this forum who have shown us their true colors and proven they are not truly spiritual, though they love to TALK about it. The day I found this to be true of SD was a sad day indeed. It is very illogical of him to point out the material faults of India and praise that of the West, while claiming to think in spiritual terms. I don’t know what side of India he’s been on, but there are millions of Indians out there in India who are spiritual. You can expect as much from a country with 1.1+ BILLION people.


#47

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;52621]I am afraid that there are many on this forum who have shown us their true colors and proven they are not truly spiritual, though they love to TALK about it. The day I found this to be true of SD was a sad day indeed. It is very illogical of him to point out the material faults of India and praise that of the West, while claiming to think in spiritual terms. I don’t know what side of India he’s been on, but there are millions of Indians out there in India who are spiritual. You can expect as much from a country with 1.1+ BILLION people.[/QUOTE]

I could have pointed out to SD that the Kumbha mela at Prayag in 2007 had more than 70 million pilgrims in atttendance. And I am sure it is reasonable to assume that not all who would have liked to there were able to attend. But then I decided it was pointless to have a discussion with a person whose posts are full of rage and vitriol.


#48

[QUOTE=reaswaran;52654]I could have pointed out to SD that the Kumbha mela at Prayag in 2007 had more than 70 million pilgrims in atttendance. And I am sure it is reasonable to assume that not all who would have liked to there were able to attend. But then I decided it was pointless to have a discussion with a person whose posts are full of rage and vitriol.[/QUOTE]

Since he has never before shown such hatred to anyone before, we can safely assume that he has experienced many horrible things in India. That, or he, being brainwashed by Western dogma and the mindsets of irrational Westerners (sorry for redundancy), scorns the poverty in India instead of pitying it.

For all his so-called “knowledge” about poverty/corruption/etc in India, he has not done one single thing in order to make a difference. Not one. To cover it up, he resorts to racist attacks on his OWN race. No matter how much he says he maintains no regional allegiance, the world world will still see he is as “shit-colored” as you, me, or the other 1.1 billion Indians on this planet.


#49

Neitzsche, you still got some growing up to do. Repeating and caracterturizing what another person says I left back in high school. You evidently are not mature enough to have a discussion that is critical of India.

End of discussion.


#50

I missed the other reply prior to the silly mock reply, so I am responding to those points because there is something to respond to in here.

Yes. Indians are nothing but bastards. Look at their skin color!

This is why you clearly are an immature silly boy. I have not said Indians are bastards and
I certainly said nothing about their skin colour. This is your strawman. What I am doing is
making a sensible point, which is backed up by data on how overall Indian is a very corrupt
country. I am not saying this has anything to do with race, but rather to do with the economic
conditions. Even poor Eastern European countries have a lot of corruption, again because of economic
conditions.

Surya Deva, you do not love India. You are nothing but a wannabe white supremacist.

I evidently love India more than you do, because I am actually saying India needs to return to its
original roots, reject the Western socio-economic, political systems. You on the other hand, are championing those
western system. And I know why, because you family has recently come out of poverty because of those systems,
but you don’t give a damn about 800 million poor people living on less than 2 dollars a day and half of the Mumbai
population living in slums, because you are only interested in your economic interests. Hence, why you are no patriot.

I am the one who is very concerned about the 800 million people living on less than 2 dollars a day and the growing
economic inequality between the poor and rich in India. You don’t give two hoots you hypocrite.

First, you say that the West is more spiritual than India because of certain trends that are intrinsic to the Western landscape alone, and in no way the result of Vedic influence.

Nope, you silly boy. I never said the West has become spiritual all by itself. I have said on many occasions the growth of spirituality in the West can be traced to the enlightenment. This in turn was precipitated by the cultural intercourse between the East and West, where Eastern knowledge flowed into the West via the arabs, trade routes and colonialism. This later, bought about the Romantic movement and transcedentalist movement and since then spirituality has been growing in the West. The vast majority of the credit for the emergence of spirituality goes to the missionary activity of Hindu gurus flocking the West.

What you are doing by repeatedly misrepresenting what I am saying and then shooting the misrepresentation down is known as a strawman fallacy.
If you were an honest debator, you would represent accurately what I am saying.

You say you love India while pointing out its infrastructural/societal faults and making it seem these faults are increasing and not declining.

Nope, you silly boy(I have to keep calling you this now, because you are behaving like an immature boy, and not an adult) I said India’s situation is improving indeed, but only for the elites. 70% of the population has seen no benefit from the rise of a 30% middle class. India is shining only for those who are getting rich from its capitalism. Capital is falling into fewer and fewer hands, and the gap is widening between the common man of India and the rich man. Just recently, Mukesh Ambani bought himself a $1 billion home, the most expensive home in the world - in a country where 800 million live on less than 2 dollars a day, 100-200 million live in slums, and every second or thrid child is malnourished.

Again who is the real patriot here, you who simply don’t give a damn about your common man, or me who does?

You criticize India’s rise into another Western country, when it is the Western countries you adore and seem to think is the pinnacle of civilization/morality/spirituality.

No, you silly boy. The West is not the pinnacle of civilisation, morality and spirituality. I have repeatedly said the West is one of the most debauched places on face of this planet and is now experiencing a total socio-econoomic, polical and moral breakdown, which has been brewing in the West for decades now. But India is not the pinnacle either. Ancient India was, but ancient India is not modern India. If you can understand this, you will start to hear what I am saying.

Why do I criticize the West? Because of its arrogance. Its jingoism. Its willful ignorance. Arrogance/ignorance is worse than all the evils in this world combined.

Right now, you are the most arrogant, ignorant, fundamentalist and jingiostic member. While, I am talking of the need for a rise of global spirituality and the unification of all humanity so that in the future we live in in a global village where our only identity is human, you are only concerned with the rise of India to superpowerdom and are wishing for the destruction of the West.

But, as High Wolf has stated, times are changing. India is slowly getting better. Give it time. It is only 1-2 decades into its rise, which is hardly anything important in the grand scheme of things.

Slowing improving? The rich and getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. The economic gap is widening
expotentially every decade. Why should we wait a few decades the poor to slowly get a bit of crumbs to fall down from the
wealthy in India, and have a better living standard, when the whole situation can be changed in less than a decade
by redistributing the obscene amounts of wealth that the rich covert, where $1 billlion is spent on homes for the rich,
across society. When that happens, then you can say India is improving. Otherwise, India is on the same trajectory as
all capitalist countries which all ends up in total breakdown of society. That all late capitalist countries are experiencing
right now.


#51

And Nietzsche what have you done to change things that anger you here in America…your home? Are you a U.S. citizen?

Anger, blaming and resentment will do nothing to affect the change you seek. Didn’t Gandhi say, “Be the change you want to see in the world”?


#52

Neitzsche is clearly a spoiled brat from India, that has been sent off to the US for a better life and education by his recently rich family from Hyderabad. He does not give a damn about his common man in India, all he is cares about are the elites in India, the so-called army of doctors, engineers, scientists, ceos.

The irony is this is the total opposite of Hindu teachings. Hindu teachings teach that the world is one family and that we should all share and live together harmoniously.


#53

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;52711]And Nietzsche what have you done to change things that anger you here in America…your home? Are you a U.S. citizen?

Anger, blaming and resentment will do nothing to affect the change you seek. Didn’t Gandhi say, “Be the change you want to see in the world”?[/QUOTE]

Raised awareness of course. I am doing the best I can with the little free time I have available.

And neither will spreading lies about Hinduism, sending missionaries to poison the minds of Indians, criticizing Hinduism for the wrong reasons, and so forth.

Oh wait, I forgot that whites rule the world! So maybe what evil things people like you are doing WILL work.

Whoops, how silly of me to speak in future tense. It already has been happening for 4 centuries.


#54

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;52710]I missed the other reply prior to the silly mock reply, so I am responding to those points because there is something to respond to in here.

This is why you clearly are an immature silly boy. I have not said Indians are bastards and
I certainly said nothing about their skin colour. This is your strawman. What I am doing is
making a sensible point, which is backed up by data on how overall Indian is a very corrupt
country. I am not saying this has anything to do with race, but rather to do with the economic
conditions. Even poor Eastern European countries have a lot of corruption, again because of economic
conditions.

I evidently love India more than you do, because I am actually saying India needs to return to its
original roots, reject the Western socio-economic, political systems. You on the other hand, are championing those
western system. And I know why, because you family has recently come out of poverty because of those systems,
but you don’t give a damn about 800 million poor people living on less than 2 dollars a day and half of the Mumbai
population living in slums, because you are only interested in your economic interests. Hence, why you are no patriot.

I am the one who is very concerned about the 800 million people living on less than 2 dollars a day and the growing
economic inequality between the poor and rich in India. You don’t give two hoots you hypocrite.

Nope, you silly boy. I never said the West has become spiritual all by itself. I have said on many occasions the growth of spirituality in the West can be traced to the enlightenment. This in turn was precipitated by the cultural intercourse between the East and West, where Eastern knowledge flowed into the West via the arabs, trade routes and colonialism. This later, bought about the Romantic movement and transcedentalist movement and since then spirituality has been growing in the West. The vast majority of the credit for the emergence of spirituality goes to the missionary activity of Hindu gurus flocking the West.

What you are doing by repeatedly misrepresenting what I am saying and then shooting the misrepresentation down is known as a strawman fallacy.
If you were an honest debator, you would represent accurately what I am saying.

Nope, you silly boy(I have to keep calling you this now, because you are behaving like an immature boy, and not an adult) I said India’s situation is improving indeed, but only for the elites. 70% of the population has seen no benefit from the rise of a 30% middle class. India is shining only for those who are getting rich from its capitalism. Capital is falling into fewer and fewer hands, and the gap is widening between the common man of India and the rich man. Just recently, Mukesh Ambani bought himself a $1 billion home, the most expensive home in the world - in a country where 800 million live on less than 2 dollars a day, 100-200 million live in slums, and every second or thrid child is malnourished.

Again who is the real patriot here, you who simply don’t give a damn about your common man, or me who does?

No, you silly boy. The West is not the pinnacle of civilisation, morality and spirituality. I have repeatedly said the West is one of the most debauched places on face of this planet and is now experiencing a total socio-econoomic, polical and moral breakdown, which has been brewing in the West for decades now. But India is not the pinnacle either. Ancient India was, but ancient India is not modern India. If you can understand this, you will start to hear what I am saying.

Right now, you are the most arrogant, ignorant, fundamentalist and jingiostic member. While, I am talking of the need for a rise of global spirituality and the unification of all humanity so that in the future we live in in a global village where our only identity is human, you are only concerned with the rise of India to superpowerdom and are wishing for the destruction of the West.

Slowing improving? The rich and getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. The economic gap is widening
expotentially every decade. Why should we wait a few decades the poor to slowly get a bit of crumbs to fall down from the
wealthy in India, and have a better living standard, when the whole situation can be changed in less than a decade
by redistributing the obscene amounts of wealth that the rich covert, where $1 billlion is spent on homes for the rich,
across society. When that happens, then you can say India is improving. Otherwise, India is on the same trajectory as
all capitalist countries which all ends up in total breakdown of society. That all late capitalist countries are experiencing
right now.[/QUOTE]

Can you not tell when I am being cynical and when I am actually responding to a specific point you have made? It was meant to be sarcasm.

Every single point you made about me are extrapolations of what I have told you, designed to hurt my feelings. How spiritual of you.

Let’s get something straight. You are a 30 year old man with a degree with Philosophy and free to pursue whatever captures your interest. I am merely a teenager who is inundated with mounds of homework and whose main goal is to get out of high school. You clearly have more freedom regarding what you can do with your hands.

Moving on.

Once again, you misinterpret what I have been saying the WHOLE TIME. I do not LIKE capitalism. I just believe that there is NO WAY the world can get out of that trap. I have always maintained that the best that can be done is to go along with what we have and hope for the best.

Besides, Gandhi had almost the exact same thoughts as you on what he wanted India to become. Do you honestly think his ideas would have worked in an increasingly militarized, industrialized, and modernized world?

Your interpretation of my family history is VERY flawed.

Oh yes, you EVIDENTLY care for the majority of Indians living in poverty. That is EXACTLY why you called Indians the most stupidest, arrogant, and ignorant people on the planet. That is precisely why you recounted a family story to highlight the extent of the depravity of Indians. Nowhere in those self-racist statements do I find ANY inkling of you having ANY concern for India’s masses.

I am sorry. What degree do you have in History? What courses have you taken? Emerging spirituality in the West has largely NOTHING to do with the influence of Vedic mindsets. It was mostly the influence of Enlightenment ideals and so-called “Christian” idealism. Yeah sure, Thoreau may have read the Vedas, Nikola Tesla may have attended Vivekananda’s lectures, Schopenhauer may have adored the Upanishads, but those instances only ADDED to their beliefs. Sure Oppenheimer may have been heavily influenced by the BG but how many of the other scientists or Americans actually took his example and read the BG themselves? How often do we learn about these Indic influences? We don’t, and mostly because they didn’t have as significant a impact as you make it out to be.

Oh boo hoo, back in the 1800’s in this country, only the rich were getting richer, and the poor were getting poorer. 50-70% of the population lived in rural areas. Strikes were frequently broken by bringing in the state militia or the federal army. How did this change? By prolonged and continued protest, sometimes violent, sometimes peaceful. In the same way, we simply can’t give up on India and start helping those who are ALREADY better off. We have to protest, raise awareness, fight, go on strikes, and etc. Indians can’t simply give up on India like you and many others have.

Again, what have you done to change the situation in India? If you were truly a patriot, what have you done, what DIFFERENCE did you POSSIBLY make in the lives of even the tiniest proportion of India’s population? On the other hand, my family donates a shit load of money to charities and other such organizations to help the people of their city, annually. If a person looks like a genuine beggar (because of the whole organized begging thing), we don’t hesitate to give them money. My grandfather runs a school for underprivileged somewhere in Andra Pradesh. Recently, my father gave money to him so he could provide for one of his students who had the highest marks in the state, but was recently orphaned and poor. Also at the request of my grand-father, he also gave money to help one of our distant family relationships escape from poverty, after her husband died, leaving 3 or 4 year old children to her care. What has your family done?

But of course, you won’t believe me. You will continue to think I am a rich and spoiled brat from India, even though I was actually 6 years old when I moved to America and hence, would not have had time to develop such materialistic notions. Besides, you do realize that my family was considered lower-class when we moved here right? Why didn’t he use his family’s vast fortune you ask? Because my family wanted him and us to learn the lessons of hard work, integrity, education, and so forth.

Alright then, believe what you will.

Destruction of the West? No, the destruction of its arrogance, its chauvinism, its notions of superiority. For that to happen, they must know what it means to be a third world country, to be scorned as poor, illiterate, ignorant, and etc. Their decline is already happening and is visible enough for the unfaded eye to see.


#55

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;52713]Neitzsche is clearly a spoiled brat from India, that has been sent off to the US for a better life and education by his recently rich family from Hyderabad. He does not give a damn about his common man in India, all he is cares about are the elites in India, the so-called army of doctors, engineers, scientists, ceos.

The irony is this is the total opposite of Hindu teachings. Hindu teachings teach that the world is one family and that we should all share and live together harmoniously.[/QUOTE]

W.E you say man. Keeping reinforcing these ignorant comments to yourself.

And the irony is that the world is not like this. That is why we must make the most of what we have and mold it to meet this final goal. Yes, that means even capitalism.


#56

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;52711]And Nietzsche what have you done to change things that anger you here in America…your home? Are you a U.S. citizen?

Anger, blaming and resentment will do nothing to affect the change you seek. Didn’t Gandhi say, “Be the change you want to see in the world”?[/QUOTE]

I think he also said “I think it would be a good idea” in response an inquiry along the lines of “What do you think of Western civilization?”


#57

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;52711]Anger, blaming and resentment will do nothing to affect the change you seek. [/QUOTE]

Yes, Lotus Girl. This is true. And that’s the point of this debate. All of us need to accept reality as it is. India has several probems, corruption and poverty being two major ones. Both spring from our political system. The political system needs a change. And neither I nor millions like me in this country will give up on India. The old fogies on the political area will soon fade away or be forced away. There are millions of our youth who are idealistic and have not chased only money, even though opportunites are available. These are the ones we will nuture to be future leaders and I venture to hope under them India has a shining future.

Do we hate the west - Of course not !. There are many things which I and India can learn from the west. (But , ahem ! Spirituality is not one of them. )

And there are many things which the west can learn from us like being more balanced in consumption and the practice of economy even when one does not need to do so.

Nature has a plan for all of us. That is why we are here-whether we are white , black or brown. And we shall all be truly moving towards enlightenment when we accept and understand that each of us is born for a purpose . That is the beginning of universal brotherhood - What more can we ask ?


#58

Do we hate the west - Of course not !. There are many things which I and India can learn from the west. (But , ahem ! Spirituality is not one of them. )

It’s there, but you’ve been looking in the wrong places for it, if you’ve been looking at all.

And there are many things which the west can learn from us like being more balanced in consumption and the practice of economy even when one does not need to do so.

Agreed.

Nature has a plan for all of us. That is why we are here-whether we are white , black or brown. And we shall all be truly moving towards enlightenment when we accept and understand that each of us is born for a purpose . That is the beginning of universal brotherhood - What more can we ask ?

How does nature plan anything at all?

God has a plan for us, but God is not nature and nature is not God.


#59

[QUOTE=reaswaran;52752]Yes, Lotus Girl. This is true. And that’s the point of this debate. All of us need to accept reality as it is. India has several probems, corruption and poverty being two major ones. Both spring from our political system. The political system needs a change. And neither I nor millions like me in this country will give up on India. The old fogies on the political area will soon fade away or be forced away. There are millions of our youth who are idealistic and have not chased only money, even though opportunites are available. These are the ones we will nuture to be future leaders and I venture to hope under them India has a shining future.

Do we hate the west - Of course not !. There are many things which I and India can learn from the west. (But , ahem ! Spirituality is not one of them. )

And there are many things which the west can learn from us like being more balanced in consumption and the practice of economy even when one does not need to do so.

Nature has a plan for all of us. That is why we are here-whether we are white , black or brown. And we shall all be truly moving towards enlightenment when we accept and understand that each of us is born for a purpose . That is the beginning of universal brotherhood - What more can we ask ?[/QUOTE]

Thank you Ravi for your response. I agree with you and your last paragraph is beautifully stated. But I find it very disheartening when many of us, who are white, are painted to be biased and hateful. We are TOLD that we HATE India and HATE Hinduism. For most, this couldn’t be farther from the truth. Why on earth would we be practicing yoga if we thought this? We each have our own interpretation of what we see as the truth. Does it really matter if some think yoga predates Hinduism, or sanatana dharma as I was corrected, perhaps to some it does. But they are only looking at the surface, not what is underneath. Does thinking yoga predates Hinduism (using this because N keeps bringing this up) make those who believe this bigoted, biased, mean spirited or a bad person? Of course not. Again, one needs to look beyond the surface.

I cannot argue the points that SD, you and N have with regards to the India V west debate. I’ve not been to India so I cannot comment. But I do know that the west has put yoga on a fast track, right or wrong. Yoga is meant for all, not just a select few. The west has been given a beautiful gift. This gift has the capacity to change the world for the better. They must be good stewards though. The west has been spiritually hungry for many years. Do I think only affluent people do yoga? It does seem to be the trend here, but it seems to be changing. As I’ve mentioned, more and more studios and teachers are offering reduced or free classes to those who can’t afford it. (myself being one) But as SD has stated wealth affords indulgence. But they soon find this a very superficial form of happiness and begin searching for “something more”. Some are lucky enough to find yoga and soon realize that wealth can never bring true happiness or contentment without the spiritual component. My classes are spiritual with less emphasis on only asan. I can’t tell you how many have come to my classes because of this. They often times will comment that they don’t want just physical exercise. They know something is missing with only the physical part of yoga.

Whether it is Christian, Hindu, Buddhist yoga or an eclectic mix, it can be spiritual and lead the practitioner down the path toward enlightenment. Many means toward the same end.


#60

I could have pointed out to SD that the Kumbha mela at Prayag in 2007 had more than 70 million pilgrims in atttendance.

The operative word here is pilgrim. What you have given me an example of a religious festival, not spirituality. Having a massive carnival periodically, where millions of naked sadhu’s plunge into a toxic river they consider sacred, and there are dozens side shows of sadhus that stick needles, pins into their penis is hardly spirituality. It is a freak show.
In sanatana dharma, bodily and mental cleansiness is paramount. It is even one of the niyamas in the Yogasutras. Daily ritual bathing to keep the body clean is one of the distinguishing features of Vedic culture. In Ayurveda, dinacharya prescribes a thorough daily cleanse before the day begins. In the Harappa phase of Vedic civilisation, we see a civilisation that considers hygiene of paramount importance and has highly sophisticated sanitation systems, that some argue are even more sophisticated than India’s current sanitation systems.
To a Vedic Aryan, the behaviour of these millions of sadhus would be considered savage. No sensible and civilised person would go into a river that toxic which contains everything from human ashes, corposes, fecal matter, urine and filth in general, let alone bathe and drink from it.

As humanity gets more civilised naturally it becomes more cleaner, healthier and freer. It tends towards more holistic, way and harmonious ways of life. What you just described with India’s periodic freak show is the opposite.