Is the West becoming more spiritual?


#61

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;52756]Thank you Ravi for your response. I agree with you and your last paragraph is beautifully stated. But I find it very disheartening when many of us, who are white, are painted to be biased and hateful. We are TOLD that we HATE India and HATE Hinduism. For most, this couldn’t be farther from the truth. Why on earth would we be practicing yoga if we thought this? We each have our own interpretation of what we see as the truth. Does it really matter if some think yoga predates Hinduism, or sanatana dharma as I was corrected, perhaps to some it does. But they are only looking at the surface, not what is underneath. Does thinking yoga predates Hinduism (using this because N keeps bringing this up) make those who believe this bigoted, biased, mean spirited or a bad person? Of course not. Again, one needs to look beyond the surface.

I cannot argue the points that SD, you and N have with regards to the India V west debate. I’ve not been to India so I cannot comment. But I do know that the west has put yoga on a fast track, right or wrong. Yoga is meant for all, not just a select few. The west has been given a beautiful gift. This gift has the capacity to change the world for the better. They must be good stewards though. The west has been spiritually hungry for many years. Do I think only affluent people do yoga? It does seem to be the trend here, but it seems to be changing. As I’ve mentioned, more and more studios and teachers are offering reduced or free classes to those who can’t afford it. (myself being one) But as SD has stated wealth affords indulgence. But they soon find this a very superficial form of happiness and begin searching for “something more”. Some are lucky enough to find yoga and soon realize that wealth can never bring true happiness or contentment without the spiritual component. My classes are spiritual with less emphasis on only asan. I can’t tell you how many have come to my classes because of this. They often times will comment that they don’t want just physical exercise. They know something is missing with only the physical part of yoga.

Whether it is Christian, Hindu, Buddhist yoga or an eclectic mix, it can be spiritual and lead the practitioner down the path toward enlightenment. Many means toward the same end.[/QUOTE]

Lotus Girl, The tone of one’s communication is one indicator or progress in the spiritual path. In the case of this forum, the only communication we have is through the medium of the posts. Your posts are very mature and I have yet to see any harsh response from you. Obviously you have progressed significantly along the spiritual path. And in keeping with that I am quite sure that your classes are more oriented towards the spiritual.

If I or N have given the impression that we think that spirituality is not possible in the West, that was not the intention. Spirituality is in the nature of a human and as you have stated, there are many paths towards the same destination.

I am not able to agree with you that Money is an enabler for spirituality. Yes, I do agree that when the pursuit of power and money makes your soul weary, you do look for a higher meaning to life. But this is more of a reaction in cultures where at least in recent decades there has been a focus on only success in terms of money. In cultures where public life has embraced spirituality, the display of wealth has been considered vulgar. It is from the west that we have got completely forgettable ideas like “Greed is Good”. But it is also from the west that we have been able to learn how to market Yoga. And that marketing has led to the rapid spread of this science all over the world. Which is all to the good.

Why do I not agree with you on money being enabler of spirituality - In terms of number I would estimate persons who have a deep belief in the spiritual at at least 300 to 350 million in India ? I have arrived at this figure by assuming that only 20 % of those who wanted to go to the Kumbh Mela actually managed to. Actual numbers could be far more. (Estimated KM attendance is around 80 million for the KM 2010). I doubt very seriously if more than a small percentage of these pilgrims would be well off financially. In fact it would be the other way around -most of those who are wealthy would avoid these crowded gatherings. And for those who attended -it is difficult to conceive of any motivation but faith when one considers the far from comfortable experience that the KM is in terms of physical comforts.

And you are right when you say that it does not matter whether yoga predates Hinduism or other way around. It’s only a tool and the origin of the tool is immaterial. Let every soul in this world get enlightened.


#62

Ravi, thank you! I do think we agree on much and if I have given the impression that I believe money is the enabler for spirituality I am sorry. Deep down I don’t think this way at all. But as you correctly articulated the west has marketed yoga and widened its appeal. And yes that is good! But the west (I’ll speak for the U.S.) is wealthier than most countries and because of how yoga has been marketed, the more affluent have had the benefit of being introduced to yoga more often than those who are not. So in a way, I am agreeing with SD but I don’t agree that this is the right way. Like I said, I do believe and have seen changes in yoga’s appeal and marketing. Perhaps because yoga comes across as mystical (to the west) it lends more to the mindset of the affluent, thinking it will bring happiness. For some it will i.e. when they realize money really isn’t a good indicator of happiness. But unfortunately for some it won’t. Not sure if I’m articulating myself well enough. I hope so.

And I have not gotten the impression that you think spirituality is not possible in west. Quite the contrary! I’m not so sure about N though. He seems so bitter about the west. I hope that changes for him.

And while I struggle to learn and walk the path, I don’t always do a good job. But for those times that I’ve failed, I’ve also learned. SD and I have had our share of squabbles, and I’ve let my frustration get the better of me. But like I’ve said, I’ve learned from those times. At least I hope so!


#63

Every single point you made about me are extrapolations of what I have told you, designed to hurt my feelings. How spiritual of you

No, you are behaving like a paranoid wreck. Not everybody who has something good to say about the West and something bad about India is a white supremist. You have been freely labelling everybody on this forum a white supremist and now you have even labelled me one. This just makes you look like a paranoid wreck and no objective reader is going to take you seriously.

There is no agenda on my side to hurt you or your feelings. My only agenda, as it always has been is truth and this overrides everything else. Hence, why I did not hestitate to turn against you, despite your loyalty to me and the fact that you teamed up with me against the attacks I had to face on this forum. I am prepared to lose even my friends so truth can prevail. You are freely and irresponsibly exaggerating the merits of India and the demerits of the West. I ain’t having any of that, even if you are/were a friend. As I’ve always maintained be honest, be objective and be factual. It is easy to be honest - you simply stick to the facts. I have no double standards. I am very scathing in my criticisms of Abrahamic religions, and I am equally as scathing of modern India. You are very scathing in your criticisms of Abrahamic religions, but defensive of India.

To a Hindu, personal relationships, nationality, profit or loss is not as important as dharma. Dharma is the most important. This is also the message of the Gita. Be honest, be objective and be factual, even if that means going againist your friends and family, your nationality or incurring loss. I am a highly consistent person when it comes to honesty. I don’t have double standards. One thing cannot be wrong for the West and right for India. The things you condemn the West for, are the same things that India has, if not worse.

Once again, you misinterpret what I have been saying the WHOLE TIME. I do not LIKE capitalism. I just believe that there is NO WAY the world can get out of that trap. I have always maintained that the best that can be done is to go along with what we have and hope for the best.

Then you have absolutely no confidence in your own Indian systems. So how are you patriotic then? I have absolute confidence in the varna-ashrama dharma system, because it has been the socio-economic system of India for the past few millenias and India was reigning at the top of the world when this system was in place. It produced great development in science, technology, engineering, spirituality, arts, that went on to shape much of the world.

Then you are going along with British villification of Indian culture, which abolished the varna-ashrama dharma system, abolished Indian’s traditional industries, abolished Sanskrit education by calling it “inferior and paltry compared to Western education”

How on earth then can you claim you are patriotic about India? It has becoming exceeding clear in this discussion that I am the true patriot here, and you are a hypocrite who condemns the West, yet want to keep its systems intact and are celeberating the rewards a few Indians are getting from those systems, ignoring the hundreds of millions who are getting poorer vis a vis the elites, and ignoring the the ultimate fate of a capitalist country. You are only interested in delusions, not reality. Hence, why you even ignore the real Chinese threat, which even the Indian military has acknowledged and warned about.

Be honest, stick to facts and be factual. That is the Aryan way. Otherwise, don’t claim you are Hindu. You show more evidence of being a nationalist than a Hindu.

Besides, Gandhi had almost the exact same thoughts as you on what he wanted India to become. Do you honestly think his ideas would have worked in an increasingly militarized, industrialized, and modernized world?

Nope, Gandhi’s swadeshi system had nothing to do with reinstating the varna-ashrama dharma system. Gandhi’s solution was to close of the economy to foreign goods and only buy and sell indigenious goods. He did nothing to bring back the traditional Vedic systems. He did nothing to end capitalism.

am sorry. What degree do you have in History? What courses have you taken? Emerging spirituality in the West has largely NOTHING to do with the influence of Vedic mindsets. It was mostly the influence of Enlightenment ideals and so-called “Christian” idealism. Yeah sure, Thoreau may have read the Vedas, Nikola Tesla may have attended Vivekananda’s lectures, Schopenhauer may have adored the Upanishads, but those instances only ADDED to their beliefs. Sure Oppenheimer may have been heavily influenced by the BG but how many of the other scientists or Americans actually took his example and read the BG themselves? How often do we learn about these Indic influences? We don’t, and mostly because they didn’t have as significant a impact as you make it out to be.

You are really starting to sound like the complete opposite of an Indian patriot now. I wonder if you really are the wannabe white supremist? :smiley: Europe was going nowhere prior to the contact with the Arabs. The Arabs made huge contributions in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, but this knowledge the Arabs had was all plagiarised from India, Greece, Persia. This is how Europe got the Hindu numeral system. Hundreds of Sanskrit texts were translated into Arabic, often without credit and the Indian sciences were studied thorougly by Arabs. Mathematics even got the name “Hindusa” meaning from the Hindus.

The Europeans did pretty much what the Arabs did with the Indians, they inherited all the knowledge from Arabs, but pretended that this knowledge was all originally European anyway, from the Greeks. This triggered the Renissance in Europe and lead to the notion of white supriority, how all of science, technology and philosophy began in Greece(this is also referred to as Greek fetishism in comparative philosophy) This idea was challenged by the so-called Romantics, who pointed to the orient as the original source and seeked inspiration from there. But due to white superoity sentiments in the West, such ideas were derided by the mainstream community. Hence why the Romantics were called “Romantic” is was the 18th century equivalent of a hippy/new-ager/pseudoscientist. Europe freely borrowed(what today would be called plagiarised) from India in all areas, while deriding the source. It learned how to manufacture steel by reverse engineering Indian wootz steel, it developed a small pox vaccination and plastic surgery techniques by studying Ayurveda, it developed linguistics by studying Sanskrit. And Practically, all of modern psychology owes its debt to Yoga.

So the Vedic influence on Western enlightenment has been significant and vast. It is not acknowledged because of Western chauvanism or what in post-colonial studies is known as orientalism or eurocentrism. The Aryan invasion theory is another product of Eurocentrism. In the European narrative, everything has to be traced to the Greeks. This is why European scholars always try to give later dates to Indian scientists, philosophers etc, so they make it look like the Indians learned their knowledge from the Greeks. And where it is categorical that Indian knowledge precedes Greek dates, they argue the Greeks independently developed the same knowledge. The general rule of thumb is: if it is later than some Greek based on Western scholars, then the Indians borrowed. If it is earlier than some Greek based on Western scholars, then the Greeks and Indians developed it independently :wink:

But of course even to this very day plenty of brave non-eurocentric Western scholars point out the very obvious borrowing of Greek civilisation from India. The very fact that you are buying into the eurocentric propoganda makes you laughable as somebody who is suppose to be patrotic and a Hindu.

Oh boo hoo, back in the 1800’s in this country, only the rich were getting richer, and the poor were getting poorer. 50-70% of the population lived in rural areas. Strikes were frequently broken by bringing in the state militia or the federal army. How did this change? By prolonged and continued protest, sometimes violent, sometimes peaceful. In the same way, we simply can’t give up on India and start helping those who are ALREADY better off. We have to protest, raise awareness, fight, go on strikes, and etc. Indians can’t simply give up on India like you and many others have.

I tell you what has changed from 1800’s America and 2000 America - the rich are manifold times even richer. They are so rich they can buy out entire countries, have their own armies, private jets and own global business empires which are present in every country. In 1800’s, nobody was this powerful. But because Americans allowed the rich to continue to covert wealth, they became powerful. Now, these elites are so powerful they wield power on the government and affect its policies. The result is a society which is dominated by the few(What Weber called beuracratic capitalism) While, the living standards of the masses did improve from 1800 to 2000, the improvement is tanamount to crumbs falling down from the wealthy to the masses(the so-called trickle down effect) the masses still had to toil along working long hours and paying bills, even the so-called middle class, while the elite flew about in jet planes around the world lounging in 5-star resorts.

There is no such thing as a middle class really, there are those who have to work to earn a living and those who do not i.e., there is a working class and capitalist class. Now look at where America, the Western world, and other capitalist countries are today? With a figure approaching 60 million people living in poverty and middle class crumbling even the few crumbs the masses got are being taken away. All the wealth is being redistrubted to the elite at the top and the common man has become dirt poor. This is not just happening in America, it happening in all late-capitalist countries.

And this is what you want for India? Wah, what a patriot you are! No, Hindu Aryan would tolerate such an unfair and adharmic system where all the wealth generated in a society is coverted by the few at the top, rather than distributed equally across society for the betterment of all. I seriously think I have more grounds for calling you a wannabe white supremist, than you do me. I am the one fighting for the cause of India, and India really represents, the dharmic civilisation. You are fighting for the cause of the West, while thinking you are representing India, but actually you are representing the Abrahamic civilisation and its exploitative socio-economic structure.

Again, what have you done to change the situation in India? If you were truly a patriot, what have you done, what DIFFERENCE did you POSSIBLY make in the lives of even the tiniest proportion of India’s population? On the other hand, my family donates a shit load of money to charities and other such organizations to help the people of their city, annually. If a person looks like a genuine beggar (because of the whole organized begging thing), we don’t hesitate to give them money.

What am I doing? I am keeping India alive by maintaining awareness of Vedic culture. I have fought tough battles with my Eurocentric professor of philosophy and risked my degree and pretty much destroyed my prospects of getting a good reference from my supervisor. I have bought to light the great philosophy of Samkhya and what it has to contribute to modern science and technology. I have bought back several Indians back to their Vedic roots and exposed many people in my life to the Vedic culture - friends, family, strangers. I taught my mother how to meditate and now she meditates everyday. I have given talks at conferences on Vedic civilisation and the need to revive it.

I am sacrificing a potentially lucrative academic career, so I can go to India and follow the traditional Vedic path(where it is still offered) so I can become a spiritual teacher and make a bigger contribution to this world. Giving money to the poor in charity is all well and good, but it only cures the symptoms, not the root. The root of society is its socio-economic system, and when the root is so rotten(capitalism) you are going to have ills. There is a very simple solution to curing the root called capitalism: redistrbute the wealth in society along Vedic principles.

My goal is the total revival of the Vedic civilisation as it existed during Satya Yuga globally. This makes me the true patriot, not you, who rubbish this as idealism and want to maintain Western hegemony of India. Would you make the sacrifice I am making and renounce the world to dedicate yourself to the Vedic path?

Destruction of the West? No, the destruction of its arrogance, its chauvinism, its notions of superiority. For that to happen, they must know what it means to be a third world country, to be scorned as poor, illiterate, ignorant, and etc. Their decline is already happening and is visible enough for the unfaded eye to see.

This proves you are incredibly delusional. The common Western man is not your enemy, but rather the global elite capitalists are your enemy. The elite in the West are not getting any poorer, but richer. Recently, the American elite were awarded hundreds of millions of dollars in tax breaks. It is the common American man that is suffering. America, is still the richest country in the world, the only thing that has changed is the distribution of wealth, which has fallen into fewer and fewer hands.

This global elite class exists in every country, including India and China. To these global elites, there is no such thing as a nation state, but rather all that exist are markets. This is why under international trade unions, nation states are being collapsed. Under the EU, all of Europe is being collapsed. Under the NAFTA all of North America is being collapsed. Later, they too will merge to form a Western megastate. This is what globalization is all about.

But against the interests of the Western elites, are the interests of the Middle Eastern elites, Chinese elties and Russian elites. The Indian elites have pretty much acquiesed to the Western elites, settling for a Western dominated world where they can play some key role. But the Middle East, Chinese and Russian elites are a huge thorn in the butt of the Western elites - they are anti-Western and have their own plans for expansion.
It is all flaring up right now between the West, Middle East, China and Russia. Recently Afghanistan, then Iraq, now Iran, soon Lybia, Syriya etc. The key allies of these middle Eastern countries are China and Russia. So forget about a few decades of India’s rise, India future is in danger. While Indians sit there singing and dancing to the tune of their Westen-derived media, and slaving away at call centres and software centres for Western companies, the entire geopolitical landscape of the world is changing rapidly that has direct ramafications for the future of India’s existence itself.

Sometimes, I say to myself, the coming destruction of India is thoroughly deserved by the Indians of today, because they are such a hopelessly deluded and ignorant people.


#64

No, you are behaving like a paranoid wreck. Not everybody who has something good to say about the West and something bad about India is a white supremist. You have been freely labelling everybody on this forum a white supremist and now you have even labelled me one. This just makes you look like a paranoid wreck and no objective reader is going to take you seriously.

This isn’t a matter of being a paranoid wreck. It is a matter of bias. Everyone in the whole wide world has biases. Living in the West causes you to have your own biases, which in this age, entails unconscious feelings of superiority. This has nothing to do with being a white supremacist but rather persons bound by Western supremacist dogma and ideals. There is quite a difference between the two. The latter is an unfortunate outcome of living in the West and rather unavoidable. Who wouldn’t formulate those ideals when they compare their lifestyles with those of the people living in other parts of the world? Even I used to believe that whites were superior, that they invented everything from astronomy to biology. The problem arises, however, when one is still being willfully ignorant, despite ample opportunities to educate oneself. I, on the other hand, fortunately managed to bring myself up to date on the true history of the world.

There is no agenda on my side to hurt you or your feelings. My only agenda, as it always has been is truth and this overrides everything else. Hence, why I did not hestitate to turn against you, despite your loyalty to me and the fact that you teamed up with me against the attacks I had to face on this forum. I am prepared to lose even my friends so truth can prevail. You are freely and irresponsibly exaggerating the merits of India and the demerits of the West. I ain’t having any of that, even if you are/were a friend. As I’ve always maintained be honest, be objective and be factual. It is easy to be honest - you simply stick to the facts. I have no double standards. I am very scathing in my criticisms of Abrahamic religions, and I am equally as scathing of modern India. You are very scathing in your criticisms of Abrahamic religions, but defensive of India.

Fair enough. But I am defensive of India from those Westerners who continually mock our traditions and religion and the state of our nation while ignoring the massive temperamental problems within theirs. It becomes highly annoying to have to face this ignorance, especially in America where it is most rampant. I get so much anti-Indian sentiment here, it isn’t even funny. You are lucky to be living in Britain. The supremacist sentiment is far far far less there.

To a Hindu, personal relationships, nationality, profit or loss is not as important as dharma. Dharma is the most important. This is also the message of the Gita. Be honest, be objective and be factual, even if that means going againist your friends and family, your nationality or incurring loss. I am a highly consistent person when it comes to honesty. I don’t have double standards. One thing cannot be wrong for the West and right for India. The things you condemn the West for, are the same things that India has, if not worse…Then you have absolutely no confidence in your own Indian systems. So how are you patriotic then? I have absolute confidence in the varna-ashrama dharma system, because it has been the socio-economic system of India for the past few millenias and India was reigning at the top of the world when this system was in place. It produced great development in science, technology, engineering, spirituality, arts, that went on to shape much of the world.

Once again, fair enough. However, I regret to inform you that I believe you are far too idealistic. It won’t be work in the end. Now, I WILL admit that I may be wrong and that things MAY work out differently with Dharmic ideals, but at no time throughout history has any idealistic society ever lasted. It is bound to break down in the end…This was all too true of Ancient India…

Then you are going along with British villification of Indian culture, which abolished the varna-ashrama dharma system, abolished Indian’s traditional industries, abolished Sanskrit education by calling it “inferior and paltry compared to Western education”

Uhm no. I am a realist. Although I would LOVE to see these systems back into place again, I know that it won’t be possible, not until decades and centuries have passed and India has experienced at it wants to experience.

How on earth then can you claim you are patriotic about India? It has becoming exceeding clear in this discussion that I am the true patriot here, and you are a hypocrite who condemns the West, yet want to keep its systems intact and are celeberating the rewards a few Indians are getting from those systems, ignoring the hundreds of millions who are getting poorer vis a vis the elites, and ignoring the the ultimate fate of a capitalist country. You are only interested in delusions, not reality. Hence, why you even ignore the real Chinese threat, which even the Indian military has acknowledged and warned about.

Be honest, stick to facts and be factual. That is the Aryan way. Otherwise, don’t claim you are Hindu. You show more evidence of being a nationalist than a Hindu.

This isn’t a matter of celebrating Western systems but a matter of using the best of what we are given. We are given capitalism. Hopefully, we Indians think of ways to modify or regulate it to fit our cultural, religious, and material needs simultaneously.

A true patriot doesn’t just sit and TALK about the problems in India and THEN proceed to educate the WEST, which is dying and oppressing our people. A true patriot ACTS. I have not seen nor heard you ACT in India to mitigate these problems. By this definition and logic, I too am not a patriot; not yet anyway, considering the fact that I am still a kid. If you truly CARED about these problems in India, you would be raising awareness THERE and not HERE, you would be protesting THERE and not HERE, and you would be educating people THERE and not HERE. My family has been doing this for quite a while now. Once again, what have YOU done in India? (Btw, my grandfather’s school also places a heavy emphasis on Indian languages, cultural, philosophy, etc).

Nope, Gandhi’s swadeshi system had nothing to do with reinstating the varna-ashrama dharma system. Gandhi’s solution was to close of the economy to foreign goods and only buy and sell indigenious goods. He did nothing to bring back the traditional Vedic systems. He did nothing to end capitalism.

Hmm, I do recall reading something else somewhere, and catching glimpses of his ideas for India in his autobiography. I will need to read up on this later.

You are really starting to sound like the complete opposite of an Indian patriot now. I wonder if you really are the wannabe white supremist? :smiley: Europe was going nowhere prior to the contact with the Arabs. The Arabs made huge contributions in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, but this knowledge the Arabs had was all plagiarised from India, Greece, Persia. This is how Europe got the Hindu numeral system. Hundreds of Sanskrit texts were translated into Arabic, often without credit and the Indian sciences were studied thorougly by Arabs. Mathematics even got the name “Hindusa” meaning from the Hindus. But of course even to this very day plenty of brave non-eurocentric Western scholars point out the very obvious borrowing of Greek civilisation from India. The very fact that you are buying into the eurocentric propoganda makes you laughable as somebody who is suppose to be patrotic and a Hindu…

What ARE you talking about?!? I was referring to the 19th and 20th centuries, not Islamic and pre/post-Renaissance times! I already knew all this.

I tell you what has changed from 1800’s America and 2000 America - the rich are manifold times even richer. They are so rich they can buy out entire countries, have their own armies, private jets and own global business empires which are present in every country. In 1800’s, nobody was this powerful. But because Americans allowed the rich to continue to covert wealth, they became powerful. Now, these elites are so powerful they wield power on the government and affect its policies. The result is a society which is dominated by the few(What Weber called beuracratic capitalism) While, the living standards of the masses did improve from 1800 to 2000, the improvement is tanamount to crumbs falling down from the wealthy to the masses(the so-called trickle down effect) the masses still had to toil along working long hours and paying bills, even the so-called middle class, while the elite flew about in jet planes around the world lounging in 5-star resorts.

I have to agree with you here. We were in-fact discussing the “trickle-down” politics in U.S history today. This ideology has its roots with Hamiltonian ideals of government.

There is no such thing as a middle class really, there are those who have to work to earn a living and those who do not i.e., there is a working class and capitalist class. Now look at where America, the Western world, and other capitalist countries are today? With a figure approaching 60 million people living in poverty and middle class crumbling even the few crumbs the masses got are being taken away. All the wealth is being redistrubted to the elite at the top and the common man has become dirt poor. This is not just happening in America, it happening in all late-capitalist countries.

Hmm…I haven’t noticed this lately as well. All that seems to be on the news here is unemployment/taxes-for-the-rich stuff.

And this is what you want for India? Wah, what a patriot you are! No, Hindu Aryan would tolerate such an unfair and adharmic system where all the wealth generated in a society is coverted by the few at the top, rather than distributed equally across society for the betterment of all. I seriously think I have more grounds for calling you a wannabe white supremist, than you do me. I am the one fighting for the cause of India, and India really represents, the dharmic civilisation. You are fighting for the cause of the West, while thinking you are representing India, but actually you are representing the Abrahamic civilisation and its exploitative socio-economic structure.

No…I just feel really pessimistic about India these days, regarding its prospects for reviving its old systems. I don’t know…tell me something. How do you plan to implement to reinstate this system in India?

[B]What am I doing? I am keeping India alive by maintaining awareness of Vedic culture. I have fought tough battles with my Eurocentric professor of philosophy and risked my degree and pretty much destroyed my prospects of getting a good reference from my supervisor.[/B] I have bought to light the great philosophy of Samkhya and what it has to contribute to modern science and technology. I have bought back several Indians back to their Vedic roots and exposed many people in my life to the Vedic culture - friends, family, strangers. I taught my mother how to meditate and now she meditates everyday. I have given talks at conferences on Vedic civilisation and the need to revive it.

I am sacrificing a potentially lucrative academic career, so I can go to India and follow the traditional Vedic path(where it is still offered) so I can become a spiritual teacher and make a bigger contribution to this world. Giving money to the poor in charity is all well and good, but it only cures the symptoms, not the root. The root of society is its socio-economic system, and when the root is so rotten(capitalism) you are going to have ills. There is a very simple solution to curing the root called capitalism: redistrbute the wealth in society along Vedic principles.

What sort of battles are you talking about? I find this sort of stuff interesting, especially since I have done something similar in my high school. :smiley:

My grandfather’s school, as I stated above, makes sure to place an emphasis on Indian languages, philosophy, religion, and so forth.

And yes, for this to happen, the masses must rise against their oppression. They must fight…this is why I am arguing that India still has hope. Its future is in its people’s hands.

Will I take that path? I have yet to decide. As I said before, I am still a teenager and have much to learn and see. If I believe this path is viable in these worldwide circumstances, then yes. If it isn’t, then I have to simply fight fire with fire.

This proves you are incredibly delusional. The common Western man is not your enemy, but rather the global elite capitalists are your enemy. The elite in the West are not getting any poorer, but richer. Recently, the American elite were awarded hundreds of millions of dollars in tax breaks. It is the common American man that is suffering. America, is still the richest country in the world, the only thing that has changed is the distribution of wealth, which has fallen into fewer and fewer hands.

It is due to the common Western man and the ideologies they tout that these systems continue to exist, that these capitalists continue to flourish. If you ever hope to to cure this illness, you must cure the source: the ideals that the common Western man subscribes to.

This global elite class exists in every country, including India and China. To these global elites, there is no such thing as a nation state, but rather all that exist are markets. This is why under international trade unions, nation states are being collapsed. Under the EU, all of Europe is being collapsed. Under the NAFTA all of North America is being collapsed. Later, they too will merge to form a Western megastate. This is what globalization is all about.

Yes.

But against the interests of the Western elites, are the interests of the Middle Eastern elites, Chinese elties and Russian elites. The Indian elites have pretty much acquiesed to the Western elites, settling for a Western dominated world where they can play some key role. But the Middle East, Chinese and Russian elites are a huge thorn in the butt of the Western elites - they are anti-Western and have their own plans for expansion.
It is all flaring up right now between the West, Middle East, China and Russia. Recently Afghanistan, then Iraq, now Iran, soon Lybia, Syriya etc. The key allies of these middle Eastern countries are China and Russia. So forget about a few decades of India’s rise, India future is in danger. While Indians sit there singing and dancing to the tune of their Westen-derived media, and slaving away at call centres and software centres for Western companies, the entire geopolitical landscape of the world is changing rapidly that has direct ramafications for the future of India’s existence itself.

Yes.

Sometimes, I say to myself, the coming destruction of India is thoroughly deserved by the Indians of today, because they are such a hopelessly deluded and ignorant people.

That is why it is up to people like you and I to change this for the better. No true Aryan would turn back on his own civilization like that.


#65

[QUOTE=thomas;52754]It’s there, but you’ve been looking in the wrong places for it, if you’ve been looking at all.

Agreed.

How does nature plan anything at all?

God has a plan for us, but God is not nature and nature is not God.[/QUOTE]

No, sorry. Abrahamic religions do not have even an ounce of spirituality. Jesus worship combined with “Jesus says…” preaching doesn’t cut it.


#66

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;52768]The operative word here is pilgrim. What you have given me an example of a religious festival, not spirituality. Having a massive carnival periodically, where millions of naked sadhu’s plunge into a toxic river they consider sacred, and there are dozens side shows of sadhus that stick needles, pins into their penis is hardly spirituality. It is a freak show.
In sanatana dharma, bodily and mental cleansiness is paramount. It is even one of the niyamas in the Yogasutras. Daily ritual bathing to keep the body clean is one of the distinguishing features of Vedic culture. In Ayurveda, dinacharya prescribes a thorough daily cleanse before the day begins. In the Harappa phase of Vedic civilisation, we see a civilisation that considers hygiene of paramount importance and has highly sophisticated sanitation systems, that some argue are even more sophisticated than India’s current sanitation systems.
To a Vedic Aryan, the behaviour of these millions of sadhus would be considered savage. No sensible and civilised person would go into a river that toxic which contains everything from human ashes, corposes, fecal matter, urine and filth in general, let alone bathe and drink from it.

As humanity gets more civilised naturally it becomes more cleaner, healthier and freer. It tends towards more holistic, way and harmonious ways of life. What you just described with India’s periodic freak show is the opposite.[/QUOTE]

Then again, the literacy rates in that region alone are the lowest in the world. These people have moved there from the rural areas in one of the most fertile regions in the world, without any knowledge whatsoever. They have no idea what Hinduism is and are clinging onto old superstitions.

One time, one person I know told me a story in which a boatman was carrying her across the Ganges. Suddenly, he spit in the waters. She lost her mind and scolded him for doing so. “How could you spit on Ma Ganga…how could you spit in the very waters you bathe in?” The boatman apparently replied in shame, “I never thought of it that way.”

With the right education and uplifting, these problems can be solved.


#67

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;52774]Ravi, thank you! I do think we agree on much and if I have given the impression that I believe money is the enabler for spirituality I am sorry. Deep down I don’t think this way at all. But as you correctly articulated the west has marketed yoga and widened its appeal. And yes that is good! But the west (I’ll speak for the U.S.) is wealthier than most countries and because of how yoga has been marketed, the more affluent have had the benefit of being introduced to yoga more often than those who are not. So in a way, I am agreeing with SD but I don’t agree that this is the right way. Like I said, I do believe and have seen changes in yoga’s appeal and marketing. Perhaps because yoga comes across as mystical (to the west) it lends more to the mindset of the affluent, thinking it will bring happiness. For some it will i.e. when they realize money really isn’t a good indicator of happiness. But unfortunately for some it won’t. Not sure if I’m articulating myself well enough. I hope so.

[B]And I have not gotten the impression that you think spirituality is not possible in west. Quite the contrary! I’m not so sure about N though. He seems so bitter about the west. I hope that changes for him.[/B]

And while I struggle to learn and walk the path, I don’t always do a good job. But for those times that I’ve failed, I’ve also learned. SD and I have had our share of squabbles, and I’ve let my frustration get the better of me. But like I’ve said, I’ve learned from those times. At least I hope so![/QUOTE]

Spirituality will be possible in the West when it gets itself rid of Abrahamic religions of its notions of superiority. But we all know that won’t happen until they realize what it means to be “poor, ignorant, uneducated, [B]uncivilized[/B]…”


#68

This isn’t a matter of being a paranoid wreck. It is a matter of bias. Everyone in the whole wide world has biases. Living in the West causes you to have your own biases, which in this age, entails unconscious feelings of superiority.

Everybody has biasses, assumptions and beliefs. The objective person tries to remain as unbiassed, assumptionless and beliefless as possible. Hence, why I say just be honest and stick to the facts. If you do, you will catch your own biasses, assumptions and beliefs out. The virtue of consciousness is, that consciousness is presuppositionless. If you remain in a state of consciousness, all presuppositions you make begin to fall away.

Fair enough. But I am defensive of India from those Westerners who continually mock our traditions and religion and the state of our nation while ignoring the massive temperamental problems within theirs. It becomes highly annoying to have to face this ignorance, especially in America where it is most rampant. I get so much anti-Indian sentiment here, it isn’t even funny. You are lucky to be living in Britain. The supremacist sentiment is far far far less there.

If the problems they point out are actual and real, then you should have no problem. Always thank your critics, because they can help identify the problems, that you yourself may overlook.

Once again, fair enough. However, I regret to inform you that I believe you are far too idealistic. It won’t be work in the end. Now, I WILL admit that I may be wrong and that things MAY work out differently with Dharmic ideals, but at no time throughout history has any idealistic society ever lasted. It is bound to break down in the end…This was all too true of Ancient India…

India has lasted for 10,000 years. It is the only civilisation on this planet which has been able to preserve its culture right to this current day. All other civilisations perished in a few centuries(Sumeria, Egypt, Persia, Greece, Ottomon, Rome) This is proof of how solid a dharmic foundation is.
The most damage that was done to India was by the British when they abolished its Vedic culture.

What you are representing is not India, but the British reconstruction of India along Western principles. I am representing India for what India has always represented: dharma. I am saying bring India back, you are saying let it remain buried. India did not die out of natural reasons, it was invaded ruthlessly for 1000 years, its libraries, universities and temples were burned down, its education system was abolished, its Brahmin class were villified and corrupted.

So I am not actually saying lets go back to ancient times, what I am saying is lets go back to India and continue from India. You are not fighting for India, you are fighting for the British reconstruction of India.

The irony is you are supporting exactly what those arrogant, racist and chauvanistic Westerners wanted, a new India that was brown in skin, but white in its education and values. This is the main reason why I have given up on Indians, because even when people like you who are supposedly loyal to India, would rather leave India behind, what hope is there? Indians are not just interested. But dharma still has to remain alive and if Indians are not going to take it, then are plenty of Western people who will. Hence, I am focussing my efforts on the West, and not India. India for me is dead and Indians themselves want to leave it dead.

Uhm no. I am a realist. Although I would LOVE to see these systems back into place again, I know that it won’t be possible, not until decades and centuries have passed and India has experienced at it wants to experience.

Right, and you are now comfirming what I said from the start: Indians are not interested in spirituality(dharma) because they are interested in wealth. They want to first taste the high-life the West enjoyed. But a growing 50 million Americans are interested in spirituality - so the supply is going to go where the demand is. Again, I repeat, this is why I am interested in the West and not in India. I have dumped India a long time ago.

This isn’t a matter of celebrating Western systems but a matter of using the best of what we are given. We are given capitalism. Hopefully, we Indians think of ways to modify or regulate it to fit our cultural, religious, and material needs simultaneously.

This is called closed minded and in the box thinking. Where one tries to operate within the confines of some limits, rather then redefine the limits. You are thinking like a Westerner, not an Indian. For you culture, religion, material needs are different areas of life. For an Indian, culture, religion, material needs are the same. One informs the other.

You can’t have a society with a highly spiritual people and an exploitative socio-economic system. They are contradictory.

Capitalism is based on a materialist ontology. This means, that capitalism is based on worldview that accepts the entire world is material and consists only of material beings. Hence, in such a worldview one is only a consumer of material goods. There is no such thing as ethics in capitalism, and you cannot be an ethical capitalist either, because the system demands exploitation, because without that exploitation surplus value cannot be generated, and without surplus value capitalism cannot continue. So it forces everybody to compete with one another, and trample over one another, for material goods, the end justifies the means.

Varna-ashrama dharma is based on a consciousness ontology. This means that the varna-ashrama dharma is based on a worldview that the entire world is consciousness and consists only of forms of consciousness. In such a worldview, one is conscious being striving to become more consciouslly evolved. All of society is designed to expand in consciousness/spiritual evolution. Thus one chooses a role in life which is best suited to their spiritual needs and will entail maximum development. Everything is in the service of spirituality.

true patriot doesn’t just sit and TALK about the problems in India and THEN proceed to educate the WEST, which is dying and oppressing our people. A true patriot ACTS. I have not seen nor heard you ACT in India to mitigate these problems. By this definition and logic, I too am not a patriot; not yet anyway, considering the fact that I am still a kid. If you truly CARED about these problems in India, you would be raising awareness THERE and not HERE, you would be protesting THERE and not HERE, and you would be educating people THERE and not HERE

I told you already before I have no hope for Indians, mainly because the Indians I have come across have been just like you - they don’t care about dharma, they are enjoying the thrills and shrills of capitalism. Many of them, only recently came out of poverty a few generations ago - so they don’t want to hear any of it. So I am focussing my efforts on the West where I find a lot more people who do care.

What ARE you talking about?!? I was referring to the 19th and 20th centuries, not Islamic and pre/post-Renaissance times! I already knew all this.

I am giving you the wider picture of what caused the enlightenment in Europe to happen. It is the result of an East-West cultural discourse. So there has indeed been a significant Vedic influence on the West. Both indirect and direct.

No…I just feel really pessimistic about India these days, regarding its prospects for reviving its old systems. I don’t know…tell me something. How do you plan to implement to reinstate this system in India?

I am feeling pessimistic about India because Indians do not want to revive India. They just want to continue on the same trajectory the British left them on and follow a failed socio-economic system which ends up in total breakdown.

I don’t plan on reinstating the systems in India, because again, as you have also made clear to me, India does not want them. My plans is to bring these systems into the West to catalyse the spiritual development of the West. Then through the power of globalization spirituality will spread all over the world.

And yes, for this to happen, the masses must rise against their oppression. They must fight…this is why I am arguing that India still has hope. Its future is in its people’s hands.

Absolutely, and when its own people don’t want to revive India, but would rather follow the Western path, what hope does this country have? I am about 80% sure that India will be completely destoyed by 2020. Its people have fallen so badly, that I see no hope for its people and the country of India. I told you, I have dumped India.

It is due to the common Western man and the ideologies they tout that these systems continue to exist, that these capitalists continue to flourish. If you ever hope to to cure this illness, you must cure the source: the ideals that the common Western man subscribes to.

My friend, read what you write. You ARE subscribing to Western ideologies. You are not at all subscribing to dharmic culture. You think dharmic culture is idealism.

That is why it is up to people like you and I to change this for the better. No true Aryan would turn back on his own civilization like that.

And that is exactly what you have done. You have turned your back on your civilisation. The Indians living today are not the Indians that lived in India prior to the British and Mughal invasions. You have simply accepted the death of India, and don’t care to revive it, citing excuses like “We got to make the best of what we got”, “too idealistic” etc etc

How difficult is it to make the changes that I am telling? Not very at all. Here is what should be done. Include classical Indian subjects in the curriculum: Indian philosophy, Sanskrit grammar and the epics. Include Yoga and meditation as compulsory health and mental management. This will produce an able next generations of Indians with more developed faculities.

Next, re-establish the gurukul schools where the student lives with a spiritual teacher from the ages of 7-22 where they practice brahmacharya and learn how to live effectively. This will produce a next generation of virtuous and healthy Indians.

Change the mode of production and governance:

Start to move production of all essential items a society needs to thrive locally. All basics needs must be provided for locally. Distribute all local production through a system of economic democracy, chaired by a panel of an educated academic class and spiritual adivsors.

Form a democratic leadership consisting of high level yogis, acharyas, spiritual masters.

Change the healthcare system:

Integrate Ayurveda with modern science and technology to create a natural medical system which utilizes herbs and minerals to cure ailments. Invest in research on Ayurveda and its efficacy in treating all diseases. All basic needs in society should be free: education, healthcare and housing. The movement from centralized modes of production to decentralized and democratic modes of production frees up capital to enable free education, healthcare and housing.


#69

Why do I not agree with you on money being enabler of spirituality - In terms of number I would estimate persons who have a deep belief in the spiritual at at least 300 to 350 million in India ? I have arrived at this figure by assuming that only 20 % of those who wanted to go to the Kumbh Mela actually managed to. Actual numbers could be far more. (Estimated KM attendance is around 80 million for the KM 2010). I doubt very seriously if more than a small percentage of these pilgrims would be well off financially. In fact it would be the other way around -most of those who are wealthy would avoid these crowded gatherings. And for those who attended -it is difficult to conceive of any motivation but faith when one considers the far from comfortable experience that the KM is in terms of physical comforts.

You mistake spirituality for faith. If we go by your logic Saudi Arabia must be the most spiritual place in the world, because it has hundreds of millions of pilgrims visiting Mecca throughout the year and hundreds of thousands a day.


#70

depends what do you mean by spiritual… talking about spiritual things, buying spiritual books, practicing different parts of different religions…etc. can lead to spirituality, but it is not spirituality itself…maybe…

also, I can tell that Americans take things from all over the world and make them better…maybe same happens to yoga and spiritual knowledge here :wink:


#71

Yeah, Hot Yoga is definitely an improvement over the ancient science :wink:


#72

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;52868]Everybody has biasses, assumptions and beliefs. The objective person tries to remain as unbiassed, assumptionless and beliefless as possible. Hence, why I say just be honest and stick to the facts. If you do, you will catch your own biasses, assumptions and beliefs out. The virtue of consciousness is, that consciousness is presuppositionless. If you remain in a state of consciousness, all presuppositions you make begin to fall away.

If the problems they point out are actual and real, then you should have no problem. Always thank your critics, because they can help identify the problems, that you yourself may overlook.

India has lasted for 10,000 years. It is the only civilisation on this planet which has been able to preserve its culture right to this current day. All other civilisations perished in a few centuries(Sumeria, Egypt, Persia, Greece, Ottomon, Rome) This is proof of how solid a dharmic foundation is.
The most damage that was done to India was by the British when they abolished its Vedic culture.

What you are representing is not India, but the British reconstruction of India along Western principles. I am representing India for what India has always represented: dharma. I am saying bring India back, you are saying let it remain buried. India did not die out of natural reasons, it was invaded ruthlessly for 1000 years, its libraries, universities and temples were burned down, its education system was abolished, its Brahmin class were villified and corrupted.

So I am not actually saying lets go back to ancient times, what I am saying is lets go back to India and continue from India. You are not fighting for India, you are fighting for the British reconstruction of India.

The irony is you are supporting exactly what those arrogant, racist and chauvanistic Westerners wanted, a new India that was brown in skin, but white in its education and values. This is the main reason why I have given up on Indians, because even when people like you who are supposedly loyal to India, would rather leave India behind, what hope is there? Indians are not just interested. But dharma still has to remain alive and if Indians are not going to take it, then are plenty of Western people who will. Hence, I am focussing my efforts on the West, and not India. India for me is dead and Indians themselves want to leave it dead.

Right, and you are now comfirming what I said from the start: Indians are not interested in spirituality(dharma) because they are interested in wealth. They want to first taste the high-life the West enjoyed. But a growing 50 million Americans are interested in spirituality - so the supply is going to go where the demand is. Again, I repeat, this is why I am interested in the West and not in India. I have dumped India a long time ago.

This is called closed minded and in the box thinking. Where one tries to operate within the confines of some limits, rather then redefine the limits. You are thinking like a Westerner, not an Indian. For you culture, religion, material needs are different areas of life. For an Indian, culture, religion, material needs are the same. One informs the other.

You can’t have a society with a highly spiritual people and an exploitative socio-economic system. They are contradictory.

Capitalism is based on a materialist ontology. This means, that capitalism is based on worldview that accepts the entire world is material and consists only of material beings. Hence, in such a worldview one is only a consumer of material goods. There is no such thing as ethics in capitalism, and you cannot be an ethical capitalist either, because the system demands exploitation, because without that exploitation surplus value cannot be generated, and without surplus value capitalism cannot continue. So it forces everybody to compete with one another, and trample over one another, for material goods, the end justifies the means.

Varna-ashrama dharma is based on a consciousness ontology. This means that the varna-ashrama dharma is based on a worldview that the entire world is consciousness and consists only of forms of consciousness. In such a worldview, one is conscious being striving to become more consciouslly evolved. All of society is designed to expand in consciousness/spiritual evolution. Thus one chooses a role in life which is best suited to their spiritual needs and will entail maximum development. Everything is in the service of spirituality.

I told you already before I have no hope for Indians, mainly because the Indians I have come across have been just like you - they don’t care about dharma, they are enjoying the thrills and shrills of capitalism. Many of them, only recently came out of poverty a few generations ago - so they don’t want to hear any of it. So I am focussing my efforts on the West where I find a lot more people who do care.

I am giving you the wider picture of what caused the enlightenment in Europe to happen. It is the result of an East-West cultural discourse. So there has indeed been a significant Vedic influence on the West. Both indirect and direct.

I am feeling pessimistic about India because Indians do not want to revive India. They just want to continue on the same trajectory the British left them on and follow a failed socio-economic system which ends up in total breakdown.

I don’t plan on reinstating the systems in India, because again, as you have also made clear to me, India does not want them. My plans is to bring these systems into the West to catalyse the spiritual development of the West. Then through the power of globalization spirituality will spread all over the world.

Absolutely, and when its own people don’t want to revive India, but would rather follow the Western path, what hope does this country have? I am about 80% sure that India will be completely destoyed by 2020. Its people have fallen so badly, that I see no hope for its people and the country of India. I told you, I have dumped India.

My friend, read what you write. You ARE subscribing to Western ideologies. You are not at all subscribing to dharmic culture. You think dharmic culture is idealism.

And that is exactly what you have done. You have turned your back on your civilisation. The Indians living today are not the Indians that lived in India prior to the British and Mughal invasions. You have simply accepted the death of India, and don’t care to revive it, citing excuses like “We got to make the best of what we got”, “too idealistic” etc etc

How difficult is it to make the changes that I am telling? Not very at all. Here is what should be done. Include classical Indian subjects in the curriculum: Indian philosophy, Sanskrit grammar and the epics. Include Yoga and meditation as compulsory health and mental management. This will produce an able next generations of Indians with more developed faculities.

Next, re-establish the gurukul schools where the student lives with a spiritual teacher from the ages of 7-22 where they practice brahmacharya and learn how to live effectively. This will produce a next generation of virtuous and healthy Indians.

Change the mode of production and governance:

Start to move production of all essential items a society needs to thrive locally. All basics needs must be provided for locally. Distribute all local production through a system of economic democracy, chaired by a panel of an educated academic class and spiritual adivsors.

Form a democratic leadership consisting of high level yogis, acharyas, spiritual masters.

Change the healthcare system:

Integrate Ayurveda with modern science and technology to create a natural medical system which utilizes herbs and minerals to cure ailments. Invest in research on Ayurveda and its efficacy in treating all diseases. All basic needs in society should be free: education, healthcare and housing. The movement from centralized modes of production to decentralized and democratic modes of production frees up capital to enable free education, healthcare and housing.[/QUOTE]

Yes.

I don’t have a problem with people pointing out obvious flaws. However, when people use those flaws to justify why whites/Christianity/West is/always will be superior, then I have a problem.

Well then, I suppose we will never know the outcome until we act to reinstate the true India.

There is a difference between practicing REAL yoga and practicing it just for the exercise. People like Thomas represent most of the Americans I come across on a daily basis; interested in using Yoga to benefit their health but too scared to venture into the realm of what they believe is magical hoopla/garbage.

Alright then.

Well then, why not start now? The desire to abolish slavery was never very rampant until abolitionists took up the mantle and spread their ideology vehemently. They were murdered, mugged, mobbed, and hated but their influence within America ultimately had benefits.

Just because many Indians are unwilling to listen, doesn’t necessarily mean that they don’t know such paths/ways exist. Once the idea is implanted, it will grow like a virus, spreading and infecting/influencing people, eventually spreading to unimaginable proportions. The idea Indians like you, and maybe me, plant will take hold and germinate.

The destiny of India is within the hands of Indians like you. We can still change its course while it has time. We should not give up so easily upon our own people. Hammer enough, and you will find people willing to listen to reason and willing to incite change. The majority of Indians in pre-independence times just simply wanted “to have none of it” until revolutionaries came along. Within a century or so, such movements flowered into the Indian Independence Movement.

If we give up now, then India will never have a chance.


#73

[QUOTE=CityMonk;52889]depends what do you mean by spiritual… talking about spiritual things, buying spiritual books, practicing different parts of different religions…etc. can lead to spirituality, but it is not spirituality itself…maybe…

[B]also, I can tell that Americans take things from all over the world and make them better[/B]…maybe same happens to yoga and spiritual knowledge here ;)[/QUOTE]

This is the very reason I can’t stand living in America. Think they are superior in every freaking way…HAH!

See what I mean by “supremacist bias” SD?


#74

I don’t have optimistic predictions for India. My love for India, makes me actually want to be 100% wrong on the destuction of India by 2020. But this is not stopping me from going India, finding a spiritual master in an authentic tradition and getting initation into it, so I can practice for the rest of my life. I would not be doing that, if I thought the counterparts in the West were superior, they clearly are not. I am fortunate that although the ancient traditions in India have been overall supplanted by Western capitalism and materialism, they still exist for those who are seeking them.

Western spirituality is totally in its infacy. Hence why, it is completely reliant on Hindu gurus at this moment to find its future. It has no future without Hinduism.

Where I began my spiritual teaching activity will depend on what my guru and my inner-guru wants for me. If they want me to start in India, I will start with India. If they want me to go to the West, I will go to the West. My ultimate goal is not secetarian though, I don’t want to see the rise of another superpower state, I want to see the entire world under dharmic culture and the wider umbrella of humanity. I want the future generations of humans to be part of the universal community. I want my future incarnations to take place in a spiritual world.


#75

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;52920]I don’t have optimistic predictions for India. My love for India, makes me actually want to be 100% wrong on the destuction of India by 2020. But this is not stopping me from going India, finding a spiritual master in an authentic tradition and getting initation into it, so I can practice for the rest of my life. I would not be doing that, if I thought the counterparts in the West were superior, they clearly are not. I am fortunate that although the ancient traditions in India have been overall supplanted by Western capitalism and materialism, they still exist for those who are seeking them.

Western spirituality is totally in its infacy. Hence why, it is completely reliant on Hindu gurus at this moment to find its future. It has no future without Hinduism.

Where I began my spiritual teaching activity will depend on what my guru and my inner-guru wants for me. If they want me to start in India, I will start with India. If they want me to go to the West, I will go to the West. My ultimate goal is not secetarian though, I don’t want to see the rise of another superpower state, I want to see the entire world under dharmic culture and the wider umbrella of humanity. I want the future generations of humans to be part of the universal community. I want my future incarnations to take place in a spiritual world.[/QUOTE]

Me too. I am so sick of the Western-fabricated world, with its superpowers, dogmatism, GDP, etc etc…the day a nation is measured by its spiritual advancement rather than its materialistic influence is the day we know Dharmic ideals have taken hold.


#76

Personally I have met many genuine spiritual people in India, they are not the majority but they are not that rare. The West is becoming a bit more spiritual but I still think that there is something special in India by far despite all the problems mentioned above. It is a fast-moving and most contrasted country with the best and the worst. I do not know how would be the “average ethical and spiritual levels” of people if a Western country like France (which I know very well) had such challenges. I feel at home inwardly there, it is a holy land for me. This is my subjective opinion on the subject. I would say that there are diamonds in the mud, but there are still more diamonds than anywhere else.

Philippe


#77

It is hard to estimate how people in India are genuinely spiritual. I would be very interested in the demographical data. I know there are hundreds of ashrams in India, but how significant is the population of these ashrams and people affiliated with ashrams. I know recently, that Yoga has experienced a huge resurgence in India thanks to the efforts of Baba Ramdev. Now most of the Indian channels have a program on Yoga. I also know that there are many infrastructure projects propping up in India to revive Nalanda university, build a Vedanta university. So this is certainly interesting and may indicate the respiritualization of India.

But the changes are still superficial to me because when all the institutions of society and the socio-economic system are not Indian, but Western, we cannot really call India India. The education system is Western, the socio-economic system is Western, the political system is Western, the media is Western, the healthcare and medical system is Western, the most powerful language in India is Western.

So changes have to be made at the roots, and I say begin with education. Ideally, I would like to see the gurukul system revived so education once again becomes sacred(education is saraswati) Indian children should be sent off to gurukul when young, under the tutelage of spiritual masters, and there learn all the classical subjects that were taught: Sanskrit grammar, Indian philosophy, epics in addition to modern subjects. The gurukul works on the student in two ways: it imparts academic education and at the same time cultivates the student and equips them with life skills. They learn self management, discipline and become virtuous people.

Unfortunately, India has a problem and that is secularism. How can we standardize a Hindu education system in a country that has 13.2% Muslims, 2.3% Christians, 1.9% Sikhs. Will they agree to having their children sent off to gurukul? Sikhs, Muslims and Christians have their own schools of course in India, but all this does is promote religious secetarianism.

Another solution is, is to include the subject of Indian philosophy, Sanskrit grammar and epics as part of the standard curriculum at schools, and include Yoga and meditation as compulsory activities at school. This should not be very difficult to implement, all it requires is a will.


#78

I did some research on the matter, and it turns out the BJP-NDA government did in fact make Yoga and pranayama compulsory in schools, made moves to include Sanskrit etc as compulsory subjects in education, and remove the Aryan invasion theory, but these moves were thwarted by the Congress government, which immediately “de-saffronized” the new Indian education system.

What I don’t understand is why do 80% Hindus tolerate an anti-Hindu government, and a governments which panders to 13% Muslims. This is why I have lost hope for Indians. After all, they have kept this Congress dynasty in power themselves. A government where the majority of its members are Muslim and Christian. Can you imagine in any other country in a world a party that consists of a majority of minorities? Heck, the leader of the Congress party is an Italian.


#79

The following link gives details on the changes the BJP-NDA government was going to bring, and the author is opposing them:

http://www.indowindow.com/sad/article.php?child=29&article=28

Here are some of those changes:

Amidst strong and committed protests the BJP Government was forced to withdraw its saffron agenda on education at the State Education Ministers’ Conference held on October 22, 1998. The controversial document to be made the basis of discussion was prepared by Vidya Bharati, an RSS front organisation. In the name of making education at all levels ‘Indianised, Nationalised, Spiritualised’, the Government attempted to push through a fascist and right–wing thrust into education.

This right–wing thrust involves changes in content as well as the structure of education through the infusion of religious fundamentalism in school textbooks and through commitment to the globalisation agenda in education.

The recommendations that involve changes in the content of education include:

a) The curriculum from the primary to the highest level, even the vocational courses, should incorporate “the essentials of Indian culture”. This should form 10 to 25 percent of the syllabus.

b) Although no differentiation would be made in the curriculum for boys and girls at the primary stage, at the later stages the curriculum for girls should include “training in home keeping.’’

c) A comprehensive programme for mother tongue as a medium of instruction at all stages of education should be launched.

d) In view of its unique contribution to cultural unity and ancient wisdom, Sanskrit may be made a compulsory subject from class 3 to class 10.

e) Moral and spiritual education should be introduced at all stages in all schools and the universities for inculcation of ‘national character and desirable social and national values identified by the Sangh Parivar as Hindu values)

f) Sanskrit vandana and Vande Mataram should be made compulsory in all schools.

g) Curriculum should be enriched through its indigenisation (identified again as saffronisation).

g) Sanskrit universities should be established in four zones of the country. Already the budget for this has been sanctioned, while many other branches of study are starved for funds.

h)A course on Indian (read Hindu philosophy) in all higher education programmes, especially vocational courses should be provided.

i) Upanishads and the Vedas should find due place in the curriculum from primary to the higher level courses.

The recommendations that promote changes in structure include:

a) Access to higher education should not be virtually unrestricted as at present. Changing the mass character of higher education will not only raise academic standards but also lead to substantial saving.

b) General education should be given through the distance mode.

c) The initiative for education should lie with the community and not with the government.

d) The new educational institutions started by the registered organisations/societies running the educational educational institutions for the last ten years should be automatically recognised and affiliated to the Government or semi- Government organisations controlling the educational systems at the states or the center. The system of ‘ permit ‘ and ‘licence’ (affiliation) in education should be abolished at the earliest to facilitate the recognition of the Vidya bharati and RSS schools which have mushroomed all over the country in the last decade).

e) Article 29 and 30 dealing with the rights of the minorities to establish educational institutions should be amended. In order ‘to avoid tension” this special provision should be done away with.


The BJP-NDA government was not a perfect government by any means, but they tried to do a lot of good stuff for India and under the BJP government India saw its most success in economics, development. Why did the idiot 80% Hindus vote this government out? How on earth can they tolerate a government that is made out of minorities and whose leader is from Italy? Nowhere in the rest of the world would such a government be tolerated, but 80% Hindus do. This is why I am so disappointed in Indians.

The biggest problem India faces is secularism - also known as Muslims and Christians. They will never allow India to be India again. But in a country where they are relatively small minorities, they should not be allowed to have so much power and influence. They have no right to protest and cry about India’s heritage and history being represented in education. Can you imagine if we living in the West, started to cry when the West represented its heritage? We would be thrown out by the masses for being obviously disloyal to the country.

Currently, Sonia Gandhi’s son, Rahul Gandhi, is being primed for being India’s next prime minister. I really see no future for this country.


#80

To give you an idea how anti-Hindu and even anti-India this congress party is(which 80% Hindus have allowed to rule the country for decades) watch this video, where a Christian Congress MP attending the Yoga camp by Baba Rama Dev, where he is giving a discourse on how India needs to crack down on corruption and is exposing corruption, is called a “bloody indian dog” by the MP and his associate also says something rude and crass.

http://www.asianage.com/india/baba-ramdev-called-bloody-indian-461

uncut footage(Hindi): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI1P3uIC8yw

The sad fact is India ruled by a government made out of traitors, who have foreign allegiances and anti-Hindu ideologies. Again, another reason why I have no hope for this country. I would not be surprised, friend, if they have already sold off India to the highest bidder. And who is letting this happen? 80% Hindus. Also note how the congress government are quick to label a terrorist attack commited in India by Hindu extremists as “Hindu terrorism” but never uses the term “Islamic terrorism” or “Christian terrorism” So sad and pathetic is the plight of Hindus today. Getting called “bloody Indians” in their own country. Disgusting.