Is Yoga Hinduism?

Spirituality Religion
#341

More personal attacks.

It is amazing how many people on a “Yoga” forum are so quick to attack another poster personally because they have different opinions.

I think what is ironic here is that my opinion that Yoga is Hinduism has been voiced by many posters on this forum. The official representatives of other religions. The official body of Hindus in America. Hindu professors and by writers for major American editorials. It is not as if I am the only one. Get use to to hearing it, because it’s the truth.

It is quite impossible for me to lose a debate. This is because I never try to win a debate, I just let the debate go wherever the truth leads. I always
back up my points with citations, references and arguments. I always provide evidence. Thus I can never lose. On the other hand, my opponents never
provide evidence for anything and when they know they can no longer maintain their position, they resort to personal attacks :smiley:

#342

Remember, those who live in glass houses should throw no stones.

And there are also many posters who believe the contrary about yoga and Hinduism.

#343

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;37612]Remember, those who live in glass houses should throw no stones.

And there are also many posters who believe the contrary about yoga and Hinduism.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and they are wrong :lol:

You have yet to prove your case that Yoga existed prior to its first description in India. The first archaeological evidence of Yoga is in the Indus Valley civilisation(3000BCE and prior) and the first texual evidence of Yoga is in the Vedas(7000-4000BCE) All of the classical texts of Yoga are Hindu scriptures(Yogasutras, Bhagvad Gita, Hatha Yoga Pradipika, Shiva Samhita) and all the modern founders of Yoga in the West are Hindu gurus.

There is actual facts. And then there is what you say :wink:

#344

good morning Surya.

Since I read the answer, something has not felt right.

Quote:
Don’t know how you got this Surya. Who made this formal statement? I know that I have acknowledged Hinduism shared the “practice” of yoga with us. We do disagree that Yoga belongs to Hinduism, as I believe it is there for all and more universal in nature. Your answer was:
The National Association of Yoga in America is one of them.

I know of the Yoga Alliance, but not of The National Association of Yoga in America. I even googled it and nothing came up except Yoga Alliance. And I can honestly tell you they have not made any such statement.

#345

Surya,

Wisdom is oftentimes perceived as attack.

[quote=Surya Deva;37606]More personal attacks.

It is amazing how many people on a “Yoga” forum are so quick to attack another poster personally because they have different opinions.[/quote]

I am not sure if you are referring this back to me or not, however certainly we know the difference between an observation and a “personal attack?” With a bit of self-reflection you might come to see it as constructive, encouraging even. Your energy, to me, is wasted, because you use a degree of force that is quite disproportionate to the weight of your words, which is at least a part of the resistance you continue to encounter. Now, is this an observation, or an atack?

Nevertheless, have you considered the difference between the “word” and the “meaning of the word?” That’s a question not at all insignificant to this worn out thread, one for which evidence will provide you no clue. What now?

Have you ever seen Monty Python and the Holy Grail, where the knight who’s had his arms and legs cut off in the fight, calls it a draw as his “opponent” gallops away on horseback? Surya, you don’t know when you’re getting filleted, but that’s what I like about you.

siva

#346

I think Surya Deva is a model of politness, very civil and good decorum.I have’nt read anything that would seem to warrant any of the personal attacks by against him.I have not seen anything and he has taken a certain amount of flack here and handled with maturity and gusto.

He’s a good debater whether he arrives at the truth or not,and some folk just don’t like or won’t accept that.Not surprising with a rigourous philosophy training that i suspect he may have. He is a lover of the truth.I don’t think he is saying he is always right but freely bouncing off other folk. Some just don’t like to lose their logical arguments, certainly “arguments” as if there was any in the first place.

But hey that is just my perspective. I could have it wrong.I’m not here to judge anyone,least of all SD.

I think whatever we see in life is often a mirroor that holds up our own reflection.We often see what we want to see or what suits us.Can you really be neutral and stand head proud above the crowd?

In an attempto too be neutral here-Does it matter if someone is wasting their nergy here, Siva.Are you really being helpful or just looking for a punch-up.LOL I’ve seen your style Siva.I think i can often tell whether someone has a healthy sense of humour or leans more towards sarcasm that does’nt really help people. If one is just tryiing to smart for e.g for it’s won sake.This is the mind/ego talking i think. We can all fool around and be sarcastic but can we practice yoga well.I don’t think anyone’s got the answers. Anyone that does say so like they are the bastion of truth is not wisest.Better being a happy fool than a sad tormented one.

I think we’re all looking for truth or meaning in our life in one way or another and dofferent ways.

I think Surya Deva has made alot of cogent,learned and well argued posts. Although i don’t describe his style as argumentative.This might sound a touch sentimental but as far as i am concerned everyone here should behave like brothers and sisters and , not that SD is incapable of defending himself,clearly not but, as a sport,I’m sorry, but i don’t really dig SD bashing.If you feel like baashing some perhaps that opinion might be better kept to yourself.

Although SD may not thank me for this,If i see rudeness that seems unwarranted then i think there can be some value in stating it.

Hi Siva, I don’t mean to pick on you. But you use the word “we”; just to remind you your opinion is obviously your own and does’nt necessarily reflect everyone.

God, i hate really hate the tone of these discussions.I must be a glutton for punishment.

UGH…LOL

Now, moving on swiftly…

Do i necessarily always find agreement with anyone else? No. I guess that’s the beauty of these forums.The diversity of opinion.just because alot of people say something. anything, that the world is flat say, does’nt make it right.

I’m a lover of truth just like SD.

-Core789

#347

I don’t feel SD is after the truth, he is after being right, regardless of truth.

Just my opinion.

#348

Namaste Core,

Thank you very much for your comments and vote of confidence :slight_smile: You are right, I am only interested in what is true.

In this thread we can all come to an agreement provided the following is respected

  1. Yoga is an essential part of Hinduism and defines its philosophy and practice.
  2. Yoga philosophy and practice originated in Hinduism and all Hindu scriptures teach Yoga.
  3. Yoga travelled to the West through Hindu missionaries in the forms of Hindu gurus
  4. The Hindu history of Yoga is undeniable
  5. Yoga has been borrowed by many traditions from Hinduism.

In turn I will respect that other religions can adopt Yoga both its philosophy and practice. If Christianity wants to reinterpret its scriptures to claim that its scriptures are compatible with Yoga philosophy and practice, and Jesus was an Avatar and reincarnation is taught in the bible then I have no problem. As this can only lead to good if future generations of Christians are being taught actual truths about existence.

If atheists want to practice Yoga as a purely secular exercise then it is ok. Although, they are practicing it without reference to the philosophy, again it can only lead to good. It will lead to physically and mentally healthy people. Besides if they practice pranayama or meditation eventually they will validate the philosophy themselves.

Hinduism does not claim ownership of the science of Yoga. This science can be used by anybody. Just as everybody today is using telephones, automobiles and televisions.

#349

Surya,

You’ve come a long way: far less energy, more precise. Most important, No. 2, you differentiate the “philosophy and practice” of yoga from the “word” yoga: the meaning of the word (which is akin to GOD). This is a very important adjustment of thought in my view. Perhaps you considered my question?

Core,

How about “ego” projecting intent and motive on another’s words, which is also passive aggressive? You don’t get my humor, that’s fine, but trying to make it into something else because you don’t, is lame-O brother. How about giving me some credit. Do you think SD thinks he got here on his own? Did I hurt him? Ask him. He’s much stronger now.

Best to you all,
siva

#350

Hi Siva,

Do i think SD thinks he got here on his own? No . We all piggy-back off the rest of each other.You & I, and everyone else.

I just thought your tone sounded a bit combative on occassion.Like pitting oneself aginst another person.I’m sure i do it on occassion like just now.

When folk debate points of philosophy for e.g sometimes it can seem like folk are more interested in winning an argument for it’s own sake, scoring brownie points than in the substance or content of what is being said, the logic etc. It becomes more of a “mental battle” to convince the other person of their weak ideas and perhaps convince them too of the other’s point of view.How constructive it becmes then debatabe. I don’t feel the need to convince another of a point of view all the time.I know i can only try to widen my own perspective and/or be more understanding,compassionate or open-minded etc.

I’m far from perfect but i try and do my best.I think we can and do learn from each other.

#351

What the untouchables of this country have suffered and are yet suffering does not need to be proved by books. No scholars are required to do this.

The above was originally posted by whatsinaname. The below is an excerpt from a National Geographic article:

Discrimination against India’s lowest Hindu castes is technically illegal. But try telling that to the 160 million Untouchables, who face violent reprisals if they forget their place.

Get a taste of what awaits you in print from this compelling excerpt.

The sins of Girdharilal Maurya are many, his attackers insisted. He has bad karma. Why else would he, like his ancestors, be born an Untouchable, if not to pay for his past lives? Look, he is a leatherworker, and Hindu law says that working with animal skins makes him unclean, someone to avoid and revile. And his unseemly prosperity is a sin. Who does this Untouchable think he is, buying a small plot of land outside the village? Then he dared speak up, to the police and other authorities, demanding to use the new village well. He got what Untouchables deserve.

One night, while Maurya was away in a nearby city, eight men from the higher Rajput caste came to his farm. They broke his fences, stole his tractor, beat his wife and daughter, and burned down his house. The message was clear: Stay at the bottom where you belong.

To be born a Hindu in India is to enter the caste system, one of the world’s longest surviving forms of social stratification. Embedded in Indian culture for the past 1,500 years, the caste system follows a basic precept: All men are created unequal. The ranks in Hindu society come from a legend in which the main groupings, or varnas, emerge from a primordial being. From the mouth come the Brahmans—the priests and teachers. From the arms come the Kshatriyas—the rulers and soldiers. From the thighs come the Vaisyas—merchants and traders. From the feet come the Sudras—laborers. Each varna in turn contains hundreds of hereditary castes and subcastes with their own pecking orders.

A fifth group describes the people who are achuta, or untouchable. The primordial being does not claim them. Untouchables are outcasts—people considered too impure, too polluted, to rank as worthy beings. Prejudice defines their lives, particularly in the rural areas, where nearly three-quarters of India’s people live. Untouchables are shunned, insulted, banned from temples and higher caste homes, made to eat and drink from separate utensils in public places, and, in extreme but not uncommon cases, are raped, burned, lynched, and gunned down.

Get the whole story in the pages of National Geographic magazine.

#352

I think we should really be discusing this the Hinduism vs Abrahamic religions thread, rather than here which really is about Yoga and Hinduism. I will respond accoridingly there.

#353

Good morning SD. I was merely responding to threads 331-333 on this thread.

#354

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;38104]I think we should really be discusing this the Hinduism vs Abrahamic religions thread, rather than here which really is about Yoga and Hinduism. I will respond accoridingly there.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. My view of yoga, which I love, does not have room for this this kind of behaviour by any sect for whatever reasons. It belongs very much here in this thread.

#355

[QUOTE=core789;38073]I just thought your tone sounded a bit combative on occassion[/QUOTE]

Just a quick comment

IMO, there is nothing wrong with sounding or being a bit combative on occasion.

#356

[QUOTE=Yulaw;37938]I don’t feel SD is after the truth, he is after being right, regardless of truth.

Just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

So true !!!

I like your quote from Plato:

Wise men speak because they have something to say;
fools because they have to say something.

I will add another quote:

The more you speak, the less the people listen.

            Mark Twain
#357

[QUOTE=oak333;38297]So true !!!

I like your quote from Plato:

Wise men speak because they have something to say;
fools because they have to say something.

I will add another quote:

The more you speak, the less the people listen.

            Mark Twain[/QUOTE]

I like this quote too:

Do not be deterred in the fanatic application of your sterile logic.

              Unknown
#358

@oak333_ Actually, I suggest that in such thread like this, you should refrain using quotes from people who has nothing to do with spiritual practice. We all are entrapped in a fallacy of language anyway, and all of those people are DEAD. There’s a lot of people out there reading books and says “O that’s my quote of day” and next day crowns another quote from another source. Life passes like that with agreeing upon incomplete understandings. Instead of using quote… You are alive here and now, so don’t “you” have something to say? >.>

Back to the issue, hmm, I can see that many of you has made Surya a rival against your egos. I don’t think most of you listen what he says: Yoga is quintessentially a Hindu practice. This is the fact and I suggest you deal with it. But when it comes to your own Yoga practice, you may wish to dress it in any way you feel more comfortable. That will be your unique add to it, and that’s most necessary as well. However, you can at least acknowledge the source of Yoga.

#359

@High Wolf

I see no problem with Oak333’s quotes. They can pertain to the topic of the thread.

We do listen to what SD says. He says many good things. He also says many things we disagree with. Is it ego? Don’t think so. What many of us have tried to say is that Yoga does not belong to Hinduism. Yoga is a part of Hinduism, but there is no ownership. Hinduism shared their knowledge of yoga with the world. For that we are eternally grateful. I don’t believe anyone has argued against yoga being a Hindu practice. Hindu’s practice yoga, and so do millions of others, for many of the same reasons.

#360

[QUOTE=oak333;38297]So true !!!

I like your quote from Plato:

Wise men speak because they have something to say;
fools because they have to say something.

I will add another quote:

The more you speak, the less the people listen.

            Mark Twain[/QUOTE]

Thank you, I like them and the other you posted as well