Is Yoga Hinduism?


#1401

Post no.1400

A technology for the expansion of consciousness requires no belief system
.

Dear Friend:

What is said above also some belief!

regards, anand


#1402

[QUOTE=Bothom;63950]According to most of historians yoga is basically belong to hinduism but in yoga practices hindu worship is not involved. It is only the exercise to get relaxation.,[/QUOTE]

Very simple and plain truth, if Yoga is understood and practiced at the physical level :slight_smile:


#1403

Bothom,

“According to most of historians”

Those historians are neither yogis, nor are they awakened. The job of a historian is to set things into a historical perspective. So if you are interested in understanding something like yoga historically, then perhaps their words are valuable. But if you are interested in understanding yoga as an inner process, then you will have to set all of your historical knowledge aside and practice it. And you will find that regardless of whether you think yourself to be a Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, or a Jew - the methods of yoga will work for any human being because these methods are simply technological. If you know how to use them, it works. If you do not, they do not work. It is a simple cause and effect situation. As far as your memory is concerned, you may believe all kinds of things, but as mind and body are concerned, they are not in the least bit interested in your belief systems. They simply understand cause and effect, just as the universe is not in the least bit interested in your belief systems, it simply works according to cause and effect. If you are a human being, then the technology is available to you. It does not need a Hindu password for it. That is the very quality of Truth, it has very little to do with culture and society. If there are beings on other planets with as much intelligence as man, then they too will discover that water boils at one hundred degrees. And if they become involved in the spiritual sciences, then they too will discover such things as pranayama (breath control), pratyahara (sensory withdrawal), dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation), the various levels of samadhi, samskaras, vasanas, Turiya, “Brahman”, “Tao”, “Shunya” - or whatever word you are using to refer to the original nature of existence. Let this be understood - that truth is truth. It is not a cultural or social phenomenon, though certain truths may be discovered in a cultural or social environment.


#1404

Namaste Surya Deva, Nieztsche

I am a Indian girl living overseas. I stumbled upon this website while doing an unrelated search. What a fascinating thread. I stayed up half the night to read all 47 pages. :slight_smile:

I respect your intellectual honesty and your ability to call a spade a spade. You are right, Yoga IS Hinduism. Your’s was a cogent argument, with proof and tangible evidence. You have refuted weak, outmoded Oriental and post-colonial theories, and your knowledge base of Dharmic and Western scriptures is very impressive.

I am not a debater by any means but have lived long enough in the West to observe a few things. Yes, they are anecdotal, but permit me to make a few comments.

It seems to me that there is something in the Judaeo-Christian construct of the world that does not allow for a competing, equally-valid, advanced paradigm that is not the same as theirs. Where they cannot convert, they will subvert or at least attempt to do so. One can see this in the institutionalized opposition to specifically Hinduism and all its aspects. By institutional opposition I mean that at the highest levels, there is strong negation of Hindu influence, both ancient and modern; and, all the while there is blatant appropriation of our Hindu ideals, techniques, concepts, food, medical knowledge, and yes, even culture. There is no acknowledgement of the source of most, if not all, borrowed ideas and techniques.

This is evident in the attitudes I have read here on pretty much every page, from posters like LotusGirl and Indra Deva among others. This is not surprising, because my reading of them is that they represent a dilute, more PC face of a Western institutional bias. It is so ingrained that they cannot even see the bias, and find your vociferous opining as threatening. Their negation and denials are in fact valid, because (from their point of view) to allow that this IS simple truth for which you are debating, is to open a Pandora’s Box to the deeper, more insidious lies, harms and thievery that the West has perpetrated on India and Hindus. To acknowledge the source/the seed is dangerous for them, because it undermines the Christian/Western superiority idiom. One sees this in many ways here, and on many other forums as well.

  • Refusing to acknowledge that Yoga is Hinduism, the dharmic way

  • Trying to portray Yoga as a New-Age, Buddhist (and belonging to practically any other religion and tradition), EXCEPT Hinduism

  • When the above two arguments don’t work, then claiming Yoga-predates-Hinduism

  • Blatantly appropriating medical Ayurvedic knowledge - go to any Whole Foods today, and see their Health section, full of Ayurvedic herbs and medicines, with no mention of them being part of Hinduism and the Hindu concious. See their literature shelves sagging under the weight of new-age gurus like Deepak Chopra, and Yoga books from esoteric healers with nary a mention of Hinduism.

  • Trying to wrest our ancient knowledge - putting patents on Haldi, basmati, seeds (Monsanto anyone?), cumin, the use of any spice really

  • Cusine - yes, appropriating our knowledge and use of spices, our cooking techniques. Even today, if you were to read a book or visit a culinary forum of importance, the Hindu cusine is not acknowledged as one of the world’s greats as are French, Italian, (and now Chinese, but only because they have the muscle to insist on it). And yet, the cuisine of India is one of the subtlest, most innovative, scientific, and creative cusine there is. To my palate there isn’t a better or more delicious and refined cuisine, and I mean that genuinely, not in a rhetorical rah rah fashion. But you will never find this aknowledgement of the Hindu cuisine in any of the books written by the most revered Western chefs. Vegetarian Hindu cuisine is reviled and mocked (Anthony Bourdain et al). Curry is mocked, though people still relish it. A ‘curry powder’ has been ‘invented’ and used in the West and Japan, even though over and over it has been explained to people that there is no one generic 'curry’dish, but an Indian cooking technique.

  • The inappropriate use of images of Hindu Gods and Godesses - American Apparel summer chappals with little Ganeshas all over them; Lakme owned by HLL (a subsidiary of the European Unilever) - a corruption of the name of goddess Laxmi.

  • In fashion - Kurtis (all the rage in the Americas) and other garments such as the salwar, Indian embroidery and textile methods, being bought up/manufactured for pennies by Western designers for their new-new collections, with NO ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of the source (as long as it was Hindu India of course). The popularity of bindis and Indian jewellery, our jhola bags, bicchuas, and kolhapuri chappals, Indian motifs and again, no recognition. It is all part of the things that come out of the mysterious-exotic-East-with-no-name. Why is this?

I have attended Yoga studios and have found the attitude to a brown Indian girl to be condescending - “Look, we are teaching you this great ancient practice that WE revived from the ancient-East-not-Hindu thankyouverymuchnamaste”. Saying Namaste does not make one a Yogi.

I am a modern Indian from an educated family. But if you really go to brass tacks, then in modern India we are considered an OBC. But in the last 5 generations of my immediate and extended family there is not one poor, oppressed, backward person. All are educated to the highest levels possible for their aptitude and abilities. My parents rose from humble beginnings and never faced any stigmas on account of being an OBC, and neither did I or any of my siblings. We NEVER received help from anyone. My father by nature is a Kshatriya, and my mother a Brahmin (she is an intellectual and he is bold, fearless, and honest) but they were born as OBC, whatever that may mean. Therefore I find that people like the Dalits on this website, are pushing their own version of history on this forum because it benefits them to do so. In today’s world, there are many so-called backward classes including Dalits, who are NOT oppressed or economically backward in any way. They enjoy the same economic, social, political freedom that all of us do.

Yes, there are poor Dalits who may face discrimination and oppression. But this happens to poor, disenfranchised people EVERYWHERE in the world, including the US, Great Britain, Europe, Australia and other bastions of human rights and humanity. I find it very interesting and disingenuous how on this forum only the Indian Caste System is over and over reviled as a form of human rights abuse, when in fact all the Western/Christian and Muslim nations have their own institutional bodies to do this for them.

Just a little tidbit, a Kuwaiti woman politician recently called for Kuwaiti men to purchase white war booty from the Central Asian/former Russian countries belt (but only if they are at least 15 years old, because we are so modern!) so they are not tempted outside of their marriage. This is, of course, perfectly ok because it is condoned by the Quran. These are your modern humanitarian countries for you! And yet you deny the dharmic people even their roots.

It is beyond shameful. This is a distinct trend of distortion of history and facts and truth. It is denying our people their traditions and culture.

It is not PC to speak of these things no. But I have long been troubled and weighed down by these distortions. So thank you, Surya Deva and others for speaking so forcefully. I, at least, have taken note and listened.


#1405

Nice to hear from you, Twilightatdusk.


#1406

Dhanyavaad SMM.


#1407

[QUOTE=twilightatdusk;63992]Namaste Surya Deva, Nieztsche

I am not a debater by any means but have lived long enough in the West to observe a few things. Yes, they are anecdotal, but permit me to make a few comments.

I am a modern Indian from an educated family. But if you really go to brass tacks, then in modern India we are considered an OBC. But in the last 5 generations of my immediate and extended family there is not one poor, oppressed, backward person. All are educated to the highest levels possible for their aptitude and abilities. My parents rose from humble beginnings and never faced any stigmas on account of being an OBC, and neither did I or any of my siblings. We NEVER received help from anyone. My father by nature is a Kshatriya, and my mother a Brahmin (she is an intellectual and he is bold, fearless, and honest) but they were born as OBC, whatever that may mean. Therefore I find that people like the Dalits on this website, are pushing their own version of history on this forum because it benefits them to do so. In today’s world, there are many so-called backward classes including Dalits, who are NOT oppressed or economically backward in any way. They enjoy the same economic, social, political freedom that all of us do.

Yes, there are poor Dalits who may face discrimination and oppression. But this happens to poor, disenfranchised people EVERYWHERE in the world, including the US, Great Britain, Europe, Australia and other bastions of human rights and humanity. I find it very interesting and disingenuous how on this forum only the Indian Caste System is over and over reviled as a form of human rights abuse, when in fact all the Western/Christian and Muslim nations have their own institutional bodies to do this for them.

It is beyond shameful. This is a distinct trend of distortion of history and facts and truth. It is denying our people their traditions and culture.

It is not PC to speak of these things no. But I have long been troubled and weighed down by these distortions. So thank you, Surya Deva and others for speaking so forcefully. I, at least, have taken note and listened.[/QUOTE]

Dear friend:

That you are not a debater, itself is debatable!! You have presented your thoughts and reactions in what I feel the most civilized manner.

In no uncertain words, you have put your reasons for your indignation about the indifference of some peoples towards what is called Hinduism. I think this is because of ignorance on their part about Hindu Dharma.

Again while you have no complaints about your own “caste”, there are still millions in India itself who vociferously feel that theirs is indeed a deprived lot.

Let me add here that one must see the context in which the caste system came into being.

The big country that is now India was earlier many states under monarchy. [B]People had spiritual Goals nearest to heart.[/B] The kings too, being noble at heart, were guided by rishis, saints, yogis and seers.

At the heart of spiritualism, is the fact that it is the same soul that transmigrates from body to body in several births and during a particular birth tries to get accommodated in a suitable environment, which at the smallest unit is the family or “kula”.

Next, some categories or pre-dispositions in inner nature of humans were identified and accordingly, four primary castes were defined (Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra). The castes as one now sees in India are but just permutations and combinations. (and hence probably dilution/ corruption of the original four traits).

With the castes and families (kulas) in place, the transmigrating soul had a very favourable environment to take up a body. It was like moving into a fully furnished apartment, so to say!

Now, spiritual goals being nearest to heart, according to Dharma and the Yoga principle of having an attitude of satisfaction (santosha) towards material aspects, there was no complaint on part of anyone whosoever. Everybody faithfully went about their duties detaching from the fruits thereof, thereby not accumulating further karma. This dharma of detachment, coupled with past-cleansing religious acts as advised by the seers and rishis of the time, put a large number of people on a high spiritual pedestal.

Now however, material aspects, born of total body-identification having taken firm roots in the human psyche, we see the current state of affairs, which don’t even seem to be a sorry state!

Isn’t it time to arise and awake spiritually and make the inner and outer world borderless?

regards
anand


#1408

Anand, thank you for your kind words and sharing your knowledge. There is much I do not know, and I am still learning. Truly, I am no debater. I will respond to one thing though…this ignorance as you say, appears to me as wilful. It is a systematic and deliberate undermining and attempted secularization of our vast heritage.


#1409

[QUOTE=twilightatdusk;64021]Anand, thank you for your kind words and sharing your knowledge. There is much I do not know, and I am still learning. Truly, I am no debater. I will respond to one thing though…this ignorance as you say, appears to me as wilful. It is a systematic and deliberate undermining and attempted secularization of our vast heritage.[/QUOTE]

Dear Friend:

In yoga and Dharma, by Ignorance one means not being aware of the real nature of the Self. This, I suppose, can never be willful, because with this “knowledge”, all the mutual differences are marginalised.

What passes as knowledge in Modern times is[I][B] “Avidya.”[/B][/I] The only way to avoid repetition of history is to let more and more people into yoga. By this, at least a genuine appreciation for Universal Dharmic Principles is generated.

regards
anand


#1410

[QUOTE=twilightatdusk;63992]Namaste Surya Deva, Nieztsche

I am a Indian girl living overseas. I stumbled upon this website while doing an unrelated search. What a fascinating thread. I stayed up half the night to read all 47 pages. :slight_smile:

I respect your intellectual honesty and your ability to call a spade a spade. You are right, Yoga IS Hinduism. Your’s was a cogent argument, with proof and tangible evidence. You have refuted weak, outmoded Oriental and post-colonial theories, and your knowledge base of Dharmic and Western scriptures is very impressive.

I am not a debater by any means but have lived long enough in the West to observe a few things. Yes, they are anecdotal, but permit me to make a few comments.

It seems to me that there is something in the Judaeo-Christian construct of the world that does not allow for a competing, equally-valid, advanced paradigm that is not the same as theirs. Where they cannot convert, they will subvert or at least attempt to do so. One can see this in the institutionalized opposition to specifically Hinduism and all its aspects. By institutional opposition I mean that at the highest levels, there is strong negation of Hindu influence, both ancient and modern; and, all the while there is blatant appropriation of our Hindu ideals, techniques, concepts, food, medical knowledge, and yes, even culture. There is no acknowledgement of the source of most, if not all, borrowed ideas and techniques.

This is evident in the attitudes I have read here on pretty much every page, from posters like LotusGirl and Indra Deva among others. This is not surprising, because my reading of them is that they represent a dilute, more PC face of a Western institutional bias. It is so ingrained that they cannot even see the bias, and find your vociferous opining as threatening. Their negation and denials are in fact valid, because (from their point of view) to allow that this IS simple truth for which you are debating, is to open a Pandora’s Box to the deeper, more insidious lies, harms and thievery that the West has perpetrated on India and Hindus. To acknowledge the source/the seed is dangerous for them, because it undermines the Christian/Western superiority idiom. One sees this in many ways here, and on many other forums as well.

  • Refusing to acknowledge that Yoga is Hinduism, the dharmic way

  • Trying to portray Yoga as a New-Age, Buddhist (and belonging to practically any other religion and tradition), EXCEPT Hinduism

  • When the above two arguments don’t work, then claiming Yoga-predates-Hinduism

  • Blatantly appropriating medical Ayurvedic knowledge - go to any Whole Foods today, and see their Health section, full of Ayurvedic herbs and medicines, with no mention of them being part of Hinduism and the Hindu concious. See their literature shelves sagging under the weight of new-age gurus like Deepak Chopra, and Yoga books from esoteric healers with nary a mention of Hinduism.

  • Trying to wrest our ancient knowledge - putting patents on Haldi, basmati, seeds (Monsanto anyone?), cumin, the use of any spice really

  • Cusine - yes, appropriating our knowledge and use of spices, our cooking techniques. Even today, if you were to read a book or visit a culinary forum of importance, the Hindu cusine is not acknowledged as one of the world’s greats as are French, Italian, (and now Chinese, but only because they have the muscle to insist on it). And yet, the cuisine of India is one of the subtlest, most innovative, scientific, and creative cusine there is. To my palate there isn’t a better or more delicious and refined cuisine, and I mean that genuinely, not in a rhetorical rah rah fashion. But you will never find this aknowledgement of the Hindu cuisine in any of the books written by the most revered Western chefs. Vegetarian Hindu cuisine is reviled and mocked (Anthony Bourdain et al). Curry is mocked, though people still relish it. A ‘curry powder’ has been ‘invented’ and used in the West and Japan, even though over and over it has been explained to people that there is no one generic 'curry’dish, but an Indian cooking technique.

  • The inappropriate use of images of Hindu Gods and Godesses - American Apparel summer chappals with little Ganeshas all over them; Lakme owned by HLL (a subsidiary of the European Unilever) - a corruption of the name of goddess Laxmi.

  • In fashion - Kurtis (all the rage in the Americas) and other garments such as the salwar, Indian embroidery and textile methods, being bought up/manufactured for pennies by Western designers for their new-new collections, with NO ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of the source (as long as it was Hindu India of course). The popularity of bindis and Indian jewellery, our jhola bags, bicchuas, and kolhapuri chappals, Indian motifs and again, no recognition. It is all part of the things that come out of the mysterious-exotic-East-with-no-name. Why is this?

I have attended Yoga studios and have found the attitude to a brown Indian girl to be condescending - “Look, we are teaching you this great ancient practice that WE revived from the ancient-East-not-Hindu thankyouverymuchnamaste”. Saying Namaste does not make one a Yogi.

I am a modern Indian from an educated family. But if you really go to brass tacks, then in modern India we are considered an OBC. But in the last 5 generations of my immediate and extended family there is not one poor, oppressed, backward person. All are educated to the highest levels possible for their aptitude and abilities. My parents rose from humble beginnings and never faced any stigmas on account of being an OBC, and neither did I or any of my siblings. We NEVER received help from anyone. My father by nature is a Kshatriya, and my mother a Brahmin (she is an intellectual and he is bold, fearless, and honest) but they were born as OBC, whatever that may mean. Therefore I find that people like the Dalits on this website, are pushing their own version of history on this forum because it benefits them to do so. In today’s world, there are many so-called backward classes including Dalits, who are NOT oppressed or economically backward in any way. They enjoy the same economic, social, political freedom that all of us do.

Yes, there are poor Dalits who may face discrimination and oppression. But this happens to poor, disenfranchised people EVERYWHERE in the world, including the US, Great Britain, Europe, Australia and other bastions of human rights and humanity. I find it very interesting and disingenuous how on this forum only the Indian Caste System is over and over reviled as a form of human rights abuse, when in fact all the Western/Christian and Muslim nations have their own institutional bodies to do this for them.

Just a little tidbit, a Kuwaiti woman politician recently called for Kuwaiti men to purchase white war booty from the Central Asian/former Russian countries belt (but only if they are at least 15 years old, because we are so modern!) so they are not tempted outside of their marriage. This is, of course, perfectly ok because it is condoned by the Quran. These are your modern humanitarian countries for you! And yet you deny the dharmic people even their roots.

It is beyond shameful. This is a distinct trend of distortion of history and facts and truth. It is denying our people their traditions and culture.

It is not PC to speak of these things no. But I have long been troubled and weighed down by these distortions. So thank you, Surya Deva and others for speaking so forcefully. I, at least, have taken note and listened.[/QUOTE]

I very much enjoyed reading your post. It is unfortunate that I cannot have a extensive dialogue with you, as I seldom have time to log onto the net now. I have to say I agree with every point you raised. There certainly does seem to be an anti-Hindu agenda at a deep rooted level in the West. The appropriation of our culture, religion, philosophies etc, while denying it comes from our enlightened religion is indeed visible. But why is this happening? Now, while residing in India currently and having dialogued with a few Indians, I will suggest one main reason for these happenings: Indian people don’t give a damn.

China asserts its culture and history globally and this is why the West cannot get away with appropriation and distortion of its culture and history. Indians do the exact opposite: they malign their own culture. They blame Hinduism for their degraded state today, the poverty, the corruption and the unfortunate history of foreign invasions. Indian gurus, holy men, rishis and sages no longer form the backbone of Indian society - at best they are approached with skepticism, and at worst they are all derided as frauds and charlatans. On the contrary, the backbone of Indian society today are Bollywood celebrities, pop stars, actors, dancer - all dancing to Western tunes. Almost all of the Indians I have talked to, have rubbished their own culture and history. This being the Indian mentality today, it should not be surprising that the West openly appropriates and distorts Hinduism - and gets away with it.

Indian people, at large are condemned people. They are some of the worst charactered people you can meet in the world today. Many Indian people justify their low behaviour by saying this is Kaliyuga, we are just matching the times. I will say I share their pessimism, the times have changed - India is dead. It will never return. Hinduism will continue to thrive, but not in third world India, but in America.


#1411

[QUOTE=twilightatdusk;63992]Namaste Surya Deva, Nieztsche

I am a Indian girl living overseas. I stumbled upon this website while doing an unrelated search. What a fascinating thread. I stayed up half the night to read all 47 pages. :slight_smile:

I respect your intellectual honesty and your ability to call a spade a spade. You are right, Yoga IS Hinduism. Your’s was a cogent argument, with proof and tangible evidence. You have refuted weak, outmoded Oriental and post-colonial theories, and your knowledge base of Dharmic and Western scriptures is very impressive.

I am not a debater by any means but have lived long enough in the West to observe a few things. Yes, they are anecdotal, but permit me to make a few comments.

It seems to me that there is something in the Judaeo-Christian construct of the world that does not allow for a competing, equally-valid, advanced paradigm that is not the same as theirs. Where they cannot convert, they will subvert or at least attempt to do so. One can see this in the institutionalized opposition to specifically Hinduism and all its aspects. By institutional opposition I mean that at the highest levels, there is strong negation of Hindu influence, both ancient and modern; and, all the while there is blatant appropriation of our Hindu ideals, techniques, concepts, food, medical knowledge, and yes, even culture. There is no acknowledgement of the source of most, if not all, borrowed ideas and techniques.

This is evident in the attitudes I have read here on pretty much every page, from posters like LotusGirl and Indra Deva among others. This is not surprising, because my reading of them is that they represent a dilute, more PC face of a Western institutional bias. It is so ingrained that they cannot even see the bias, and find your vociferous opining as threatening. Their negation and denials are in fact valid, because (from their point of view) to allow that this IS simple truth for which you are debating, is to open a Pandora’s Box to the deeper, more insidious lies, harms and thievery that the West has perpetrated on India and Hindus. To acknowledge the source/the seed is dangerous for them, because it undermines the Christian/Western superiority idiom. One sees this in many ways here, and on many other forums as well.

  • Refusing to acknowledge that Yoga is Hinduism, the dharmic way

  • Trying to portray Yoga as a New-Age, Buddhist (and belonging to practically any other religion and tradition), EXCEPT Hinduism

  • When the above two arguments don’t work, then claiming Yoga-predates-Hinduism

  • Blatantly appropriating medical Ayurvedic knowledge - go to any Whole Foods today, and see their Health section, full of Ayurvedic herbs and medicines, with no mention of them being part of Hinduism and the Hindu concious. See their literature shelves sagging under the weight of new-age gurus like Deepak Chopra, and Yoga books from esoteric healers with nary a mention of Hinduism.

  • Trying to wrest our ancient knowledge - putting patents on Haldi, basmati, seeds (Monsanto anyone?), cumin, the use of any spice really

  • Cusine - yes, appropriating our knowledge and use of spices, our cooking techniques. Even today, if you were to read a book or visit a culinary forum of importance, the Hindu cusine is not acknowledged as one of the world’s greats as are French, Italian, (and now Chinese, but only because they have the muscle to insist on it). And yet, the cuisine of India is one of the subtlest, most innovative, scientific, and creative cusine there is. To my palate there isn’t a better or more delicious and refined cuisine, and I mean that genuinely, not in a rhetorical rah rah fashion. But you will never find this aknowledgement of the Hindu cuisine in any of the books written by the most revered Western chefs. Vegetarian Hindu cuisine is reviled and mocked (Anthony Bourdain et al). Curry is mocked, though people still relish it. A ‘curry powder’ has been ‘invented’ and used in the West and Japan, even though over and over it has been explained to people that there is no one generic 'curry’dish, but an Indian cooking technique.

  • The inappropriate use of images of Hindu Gods and Godesses - American Apparel summer chappals with little Ganeshas all over them; Lakme owned by HLL (a subsidiary of the European Unilever) - a corruption of the name of goddess Laxmi.

  • In fashion - Kurtis (all the rage in the Americas) and other garments such as the salwar, Indian embroidery and textile methods, being bought up/manufactured for pennies by Western designers for their new-new collections, with NO ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of the source (as long as it was Hindu India of course). The popularity of bindis and Indian jewellery, our jhola bags, bicchuas, and kolhapuri chappals, Indian motifs and again, no recognition. It is all part of the things that come out of the mysterious-exotic-East-with-no-name. Why is this?

I have attended Yoga studios and have found the attitude to a brown Indian girl to be condescending - “Look, we are teaching you this great ancient practice that WE revived from the ancient-East-not-Hindu thankyouverymuchnamaste”. Saying Namaste does not make one a Yogi.

I am a modern Indian from an educated family. But if you really go to brass tacks, then in modern India we are considered an OBC. But in the last 5 generations of my immediate and extended family there is not one poor, oppressed, backward person. All are educated to the highest levels possible for their aptitude and abilities. My parents rose from humble beginnings and never faced any stigmas on account of being an OBC, and neither did I or any of my siblings. We NEVER received help from anyone. My father by nature is a Kshatriya, and my mother a Brahmin (she is an intellectual and he is bold, fearless, and honest) but they were born as OBC, whatever that may mean. Therefore I find that people like the Dalits on this website, are pushing their own version of history on this forum because it benefits them to do so. In today’s world, there are many so-called backward classes including Dalits, who are NOT oppressed or economically backward in any way. They enjoy the same economic, social, political freedom that all of us do.

Yes, there are poor Dalits who may face discrimination and oppression. But this happens to poor, disenfranchised people EVERYWHERE in the world, including the US, Great Britain, Europe, Australia and other bastions of human rights and humanity. I find it very interesting and disingenuous how on this forum only the Indian Caste System is over and over reviled as a form of human rights abuse, when in fact all the Western/Christian and Muslim nations have their own institutional bodies to do this for them.

Just a little tidbit, a Kuwaiti woman politician recently called for Kuwaiti men to purchase white war booty from the Central Asian/former Russian countries belt (but only if they are at least 15 years old, because we are so modern!) so they are not tempted outside of their marriage. This is, of course, perfectly ok because it is condoned by the Quran. These are your modern humanitarian countries for you! And yet you deny the dharmic people even their roots.

It is beyond shameful. This is a distinct trend of distortion of history and facts and truth. It is denying our people their traditions and culture.

It is not PC to speak of these things no. But I have long been troubled and weighed down by these distortions. So thank you, Surya Deva and others for speaking so forcefully. I, at least, have taken note and listened.[/QUOTE]

Am white, wife is Chinese. I do practice the physical form of yoga, and I also eat beef regularly. I fail to see how that makes me Hindu in some form or fashion.

   Also, (like you going to a yoga class), when we go to a PF Chang's, we get a kick out of a white waiter or waitress trying to 'teach' us how to mix their sauces at the table...my wife will have a restrained 'whataever' look to her face.  We choose to find it amusing, but I could see how one could find it insulting to some degree.

   Also, NOT sure how China's economic might has anything to do with getting Chinese food up as recognized as one of the world's cuisines...since I have MANY white friends who do not have to forced at gunpoint to go eat at some of our favorite Chinese restaurants..apparently many non-Chinese people actually love eating Chinese food.

   Just have to remember....appreciation of cuisines is fairly subjective, and likely is influenced by the food that you grew up on.

 And for the record, though Anthony Bourdain has mocked Vegetarian food, he has travelled to India on a few occasions and remarked how Indian food has made him love the vegetarian fare he sampled.  Have you actually watched an episode??

   Wouldn't worry though...eventually the population of India is projected to overtake China in 10 years...and the rapid and stunning economic achievements of Desi Americans in the US cannot be ignored for too long, in fact, they are a Model Minority.  You're doing well here in the West!!

#1412

Hey guys, hope all are doing good…!!
Yoga was originated in India, but its largely followed in all parts of the world now.
Despite of getting into the argument of origin, lets start discussing about the Yoga practices/meditation. I had join this forum as I was thinking is more about the yoga discussion and everybody is benefited with it…

So lets all discuss about some yoga now… :smiley:


#1413

Anand,

"What passes as knowledge in Modern times is “Avidya.” The only way to avoid repetition of history is to let more and more people into yoga. "

Groping in the darkness of one’s own ignorance, before even considering assisting another towards their own innermost light, settle your own condition. Far too much damage has been created because people who were absolutely unconscious were trying to help others who were also absolutely unconscious - a downward spiral of the blind assisting the blind. Forget the whole world, first discover your own medicine before prescribing it to others.


#1414

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;64197]Anand,

"What passes as knowledge in Modern times is “Avidya.” The only way to avoid repetition of history is to let more and more people into yoga. "

Groping in the darkness of one’s own ignorance, before even considering assisting another towards their own innermost light, settle your own condition. Far too much damage has been created because people who were absolutely unconscious were trying to help others who were also absolutely unconscious - a downward spiral of the blind assisting the blind. Forget the whole world, first discover your own medicine before prescribing it to others.[/QUOTE]

Dear Friend:

Thanks for the advice. Here is a story I got from a “blind” friend. It’s for everyone:

[B]Two Horses: Author Unknown[/B]

Just up the road from my home is a field, with two horses in it.

From a distance, each horse looks like any other horse. But if you stop your car, or are walking by, you will notice something quite amazing…
Looking into the eyes of one horse will disclose that he is blind. His owner has chosen not to have him put down, but has made a good home for him.

This alone is amazing.

If you stand nearby and listen, you will hear the sound of a bell. Looking around for the source of the sound, you will see that it comes from the smaller horse in the field.
Attached to the horse’s halter is a small bell. It lets the blind friend know where the other horse is, so he can follow.

As you stand and watch these two friends, you’ll see that the horse with the bell is always checking on the blind horse, and that the blind horse will listen for the bell and then slowly walk to where the other horse is, trusting that he will not be led astray.

When the horse with the bell returns to the shelter of the barn each evening, it stops occasionally and looks back, making sure that the blind friend isn’t too far behind to hear the bell.

Like the owners of these two horses, God does not throw us away just because we are not perfect or because we have problems or challenges.

He watches over us and even brings others into our lives to help us when we are in need.

Sometimes we are the blind horse; being guided by the little ringing bell of those whom God places in our lives.

Other times we are the guide horse, helping others to find their way…
Good friends are like that… You may not always see them, but you may trust that they are always there.
Be kinder than necessary - - - Believe that almost everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

Live simply,
Love generously,
Care deeply,
Speak kindly…

And leave the rest to God!

FOR WE WALK BY FAITH AND NOT BY SIGHT !!!


#1415

[quote=twilightatdusk;63992]namaste surya deva, nieztsche

i am a indian girl living overseas. I stumbled upon this website while doing an unrelated search. What a fascinating thread. I stayed up half the night to read all 47 pages. :slight_smile:

i respect your intellectual honesty and your ability to call a spade a spade. You are right, yoga is hinduism. Your’s was a cogent argument, with proof and tangible evidence. You have refuted weak, outmoded oriental and post-colonial theories, and your knowledge base of dharmic and western scriptures is very impressive.

I am not a debater by any means but have lived long enough in the west to observe a few things. Yes, they are anecdotal, but permit me to make a few comments.

It seems to me that there is something in the judaeo-christian construct of the world that does not allow for a competing, equally-valid, advanced paradigm that is not the same as theirs. Where they cannot convert, they will subvert or at least attempt to do so. One can see this in the institutionalized opposition to specifically hinduism and all its aspects. By institutional opposition i mean that at the highest levels, there is strong negation of hindu influence, both ancient and modern; and, all the while there is blatant appropriation of our hindu ideals, techniques, concepts, food, medical knowledge, and yes, even culture. There is no acknowledgement of the source of most, if not all, borrowed ideas and techniques.

This is evident in the attitudes i have read here on pretty much every page, from posters like lotusgirl and indra deva among others. This is not surprising, because my reading of them is that they represent a dilute, more pc face of a western institutional bias. It is so ingrained that they cannot even see the bias, and find your vociferous opining as threatening. Their negation and denials are in fact valid, because (from their point of view) to allow that this is simple truth for which you are debating, is to open a pandora’s box to the deeper, more insidious lies, harms and thievery that the west has perpetrated on india and hindus. To acknowledge the source/the seed is dangerous for them, because it undermines the christian/western superiority idiom. One sees this in many ways here, and on many other forums as well.

  • refusing to acknowledge that yoga is hinduism, the dharmic way

  • trying to portray yoga as a new-age, buddhist (and belonging to practically any other religion and tradition), except hinduism

  • when the above two arguments don’t work, then claiming yoga-predates-hinduism

  • blatantly appropriating medical ayurvedic knowledge - go to any whole foods today, and see their health section, full of ayurvedic herbs and medicines, with no mention of them being part of hinduism and the hindu concious. See their literature shelves sagging under the weight of new-age gurus like deepak chopra, and yoga books from esoteric healers with nary a mention of hinduism.

  • trying to wrest our ancient knowledge - putting patents on haldi, basmati, seeds (monsanto anyone?), cumin, the use of any spice really

  • cusine - yes, appropriating our knowledge and use of spices, our cooking techniques. Even today, if you were to read a book or visit a culinary forum of importance, the hindu cusine is not acknowledged as one of the world’s greats as are french, italian, (and now chinese, but only because they have the muscle to insist on it). And yet, the cuisine of india is one of the subtlest, most innovative, scientific, and creative cusine there is. To my palate there isn’t a better or more delicious and refined cuisine, and i mean that genuinely, not in a rhetorical rah rah fashion. But you will never find this aknowledgement of the hindu cuisine in any of the books written by the most revered western chefs. Vegetarian hindu cuisine is reviled and mocked (anthony bourdain et al). Curry is mocked, though people still relish it. A ‘curry powder’ has been ‘invented’ and used in the west and japan, even though over and over it has been explained to people that there is no one generic 'curry’dish, but an indian cooking technique.

  • the inappropriate use of images of hindu gods and godesses - american apparel summer chappals with little ganeshas all over them; lakme owned by hll (a subsidiary of the european unilever) - a corruption of the name of goddess laxmi.

  • in fashion - kurtis (all the rage in the americas) and other garments such as the salwar, indian embroidery and textile methods, being bought up/manufactured for pennies by western designers for their new-new collections, with no acknowledgement of the source (as long as it was hindu india of course). The popularity of bindis and indian jewellery, our jhola bags, bicchuas, and kolhapuri chappals, indian motifs and again, no recognition. It is all part of the things that come out of the mysterious-exotic-east-with-no-name. Why is this?

I have attended yoga studios and have found the attitude to a brown indian girl to be condescending - “look, we are teaching you this great ancient practice that we revived from the ancient-east-not-hindu thankyouverymuchnamaste”. Saying namaste does not make one a yogi.

I am a modern indian from an educated family. But if you really go to brass tacks, then in modern india we are considered an obc. But in the last 5 generations of my immediate and extended family there is not one poor, oppressed, backward person. All are educated to the highest levels possible for their aptitude and abilities. My parents rose from humble beginnings and never faced any stigmas on account of being an obc, and neither did i or any of my siblings. We never received help from anyone. My father by nature is a kshatriya, and my mother a brahmin (she is an intellectual and he is bold, fearless, and honest) but they were born as obc, whatever that may mean. Therefore i find that people like the dalits on this website, are pushing their own version of history on this forum because it benefits them to do so. In today’s world, there are many so-called backward classes including dalits, who are not oppressed or economically backward in any way. They enjoy the same economic, social, political freedom that all of us do.

Yes, there are poor dalits who may face discrimination and oppression. But this happens to poor, disenfranchised people everywhere in the world, including the us, great britain, europe, australia and other bastions of human rights and humanity. I find it very interesting and disingenuous how on this forum only the indian caste system is over and over reviled as a form of human rights abuse, when in fact all the western/christian and muslim nations have their own institutional bodies to do this for them.

Just a little tidbit, a kuwaiti woman politician recently called for kuwaiti men to purchase white war booty from the central asian/former russian countries belt (but only if they are at least 15 years old, because we are so modern!) so they are not tempted outside of their marriage. This is, of course, perfectly ok because it is condoned by the quran. These are your modern humanitarian countries for you! And yet you deny the dharmic people even their roots.

It is beyond shameful. This is a distinct trend of distortion of history and facts and truth. It is denying our people their traditions and culture.

It is not pc to speak of these things no. But i have long been troubled and weighed down by these distortions. So thank you, surya deva and others for speaking so forcefully. I, at least, have taken note and listened.[/quote]

:d:d:d


#1416

Thank you. This thread makes me sad.


#1417

That read like a diss Amir. Was that your intent?


#1418

[QUOTE=Budoyo;64086]Am white, wife is Chinese. I do practice the physical form of yoga, and I also eat beef regularly. I fail to see how that makes me Hindu in some form or fashion.[/QUOTE]

If I go to mass every Sunday, take part in communion, mingle with a community that is based on the precepts of the RC Church, would I or would I not be a Catholic for all practical purposes? If there is a point otherwise? Then everything is everything. Are you saying there is no difference between a Hindu, a Catholic, and a Muslim, from a religious perspective?

Anyway, your being Hindu or not isn’t even the point. Yoga is Hinduism, and to deny that is to subvert the religion. You must ask yourself why you are practicing Yoga (even the physical form), and not some other form of exercise. I sure as heck would wonder if I started attending mass and found meaning in liturgy. And therein lies the rub…

[QUOTE=Budoyo;64086] Also, (like you going to a yoga class), when we go to a PF Chang’s, we get a kick out of a white waiter or waitress trying to ‘teach’ us how to mix their sauces at the table…my wife will have a restrained ‘whataever’ look to her face. We choose to find it amusing, but I could see how one could find it insulting to some degree.[/QUOTE]

I did find it amusing initially. Hey, these guys like Yoga…that’s cool. But there is a distant mocking undertone that is hard for me to explain. I try not to get all conspiracy-theorish about it, but it was very puzzling.

[QUOTE=Budoyo;64086] Also, NOT sure how China’s economic might has anything to do with getting Chinese food up as recognized as one of the world’s cuisines…[/QUOTE]

You misunderstand me. A cuisine may be enjoyed by all, but yet it may not get it’s due from an ‘influence’ standpoint. The Chinese have a very rich, varied, and refined cuisine (and many schools of it too), as do Indians. I can’t help but theorize that the widespread respect accorded to Chinese cuisine is in conjunction with China’s rise in economic power and it’s importance in world politics.

[QUOTE=Budoyo;64086] And for the record, though Anthony Bourdain has mocked Vegetarian food, he has travelled to India on a few occasions and remarked how Indian food has made him love the vegetarian fare he sampled. Have you actually watched an episode??[/QUOTE]

He has written a book where he dissed vegetarians and has been quoted as disliking vegetarians (because they all look the same!). Now he has a travel show on TV, and all of a sudden he loves them? I don’t buy it. I have watched his show btw. Here is a little sound byte from Tony:

“Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter-faction, the vegans, are a persistent irritant to any chef worth a damn.”

Poor vegans. Tony doesn’t love you. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Budoyo;64086] Wouldn’t worry though…eventually the population of India is projected to overtake China in 10 years…and the rapid and stunning economic achievements of Desi Americans in the US cannot be ignored for too long, in fact, they are a Model Minority. You’re doing well here in the West!![/QUOTE]

It worries me, in all honesty, this rapid explosion. You are conflating the rise of India with the accomplishments of erstwhile Indians in the West. I’m not sure the two are the same thing. I hope so.


#1419

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;64080]I very much enjoyed reading your post. It is unfortunate that I cannot have a extensive dialogue with you, as I seldom have time to log onto the net now. I have to say I agree with every point you raised. There certainly does seem to be an anti-Hindu agenda at a deep rooted level in the West. The appropriation of our culture, religion, philosophies etc, while denying it comes from our enlightened religion is indeed visible. But why is this happening? Now, while residing in India currently and having dialogued with a few Indians, I will suggest one main reason for these happenings: Indian people don’t give a damn.

China asserts its culture and history globally and this is why the West cannot get away with appropriation and distortion of its culture and history. Indians do the exact opposite: they malign their own culture. They blame Hinduism for their degraded state today, the poverty, the corruption and the unfortunate history of foreign invasions. Indian gurus, holy men, rishis and sages no longer form the backbone of Indian society - at best they are approached with skepticism, and at worst they are all derided as frauds and charlatans. On the contrary, the backbone of Indian society today are Bollywood celebrities, pop stars, actors, dancer - all dancing to Western tunes. Almost all of the Indians I have talked to, have rubbished their own culture and history. This being the Indian mentality today, it should not be surprising that the West openly appropriates and distorts Hinduism - and gets away with it.

Indian people, at large are condemned people. They are some of the worst charactered people you can meet in the world today. Many Indian people justify their low behaviour by saying this is Kaliyuga, we are just matching the times. I will say I share their pessimism, the times have changed - India is dead. It will never return. Hinduism will continue to thrive, but not in third world India, but in America.[/QUOTE]

Surya Deva,

Firstly, I realized, quite after the fact, that my post was a rehash of what many Hindus on this forum have been saying! Mea maxima culpa, but I was very excited to read this thread.

Your reply really pains me. Everyone needs hope Surya Deva. Without it, all is lost. If intellectual people like yourself lose hope, then what can the rest of us expect? This is not how any kind of war is won, be it moral, intellectual, or national. The duty of any kind of leader is to give hope. But before they do that, they themselves must have hope. What use is all this knowledge to you if it doesn’t even do that? One may as well be in the most profound state of ignorance and be blissful (after a fashion).

I understand this despair. You grew up in the west; your frame of reference was developed not in situ. Now you are in India, and find that Indians can be rude, uncouth, materialistic, corrupt, and deluded. Like people everywhere actually. In the west to some extent people are not allowed to openly show their hand even if they hate someone. Therefore you feel that the West (I presume you mean the US when you speak of America) will be the true inheritors of the dharmic traditions because they are more dharmic than most Indians, as their material needs are already met. I am willing to eat my hat that you are dead wrong. The US is a deeply Christian country, albeit divided among all the subsects of Christianity. It is also a deeply materialistic and chauvanistic country. Its national image is irretrievably intertwined with the pan-European ancestry and religion of the majority population. In addition, it is bounded by a deeply Catholic country (Mexico) on one side and Canada on the other (I don’t know quite how to classify Canada, except I don’t see it as becoming Hindu anytime soon). These are not countries that will be the epicenter of Sanatana Dharma in the future. Please try to understand, as degraded a state as India is in now, and as selfish and materialistic Indians are, the home of Hinduism will always be India.

You seem to strongly feel otherwise.

That’s fine. But here’s the thing - life goes on, inexorably and inevitably,
so one has to choose how to live - with or without hope. The test of character is always what happens when rubber hits the road. If you find that your destiny is to be in the West, that’s your choice and your path. But then BE that true intellectual warrior and be a proponent of Hinduism. Defend your faith and the history of your people. Do what you can. Such prodigious gifts of the mind are not to be thrown away in despair.

I still choose to have hope for my country and my people. I’m sad that you do not share this belief.


#1420

[QUOTE=twilightatdusk;64579]Surya Deva,

Firstly, I realized, quite after the fact, that my post was a rehash of what many Hindus on this forum have been saying! Mea maxima culpa, but I was very excited to read this thread.

Your reply really pains me. Everyone needs hope Surya Deva. Without it, all is lost. If intellectual people like yourself lose hope, then what can the rest of us expect? This is not how any kind of war is won, be it moral, intellectual, or national. The duty of any kind of leader is to give hope. But before they do that, they themselves must have hope. What use is all this knowledge to you if it doesn’t even do that? One may as well be in the most profound state of ignorance and be blissful (after a fashion).

I understand this despair. You grew up in the west; your frame of reference was developed not in situ. Now you are in India, and find that Indians can be rude, uncouth, materialistic, corrupt, and deluded. Like people everywhere actually. In the west to some extent people are not allowed to openly show their hand even if they hate someone. Therefore you feel that the West (I presume you mean the US when you speak of America) will be the true inheritors of the dharmic traditions because they are more dharmic than most Indians, as their material needs are already met. I am willing to eat my hat that you are dead wrong. The US is a deeply Christian country, albeit divided among all the subsects of Christianity. It is also a deeply materialistic and chauvanistic country. Its national image is irretrievably intertwined with the pan-European ancestry and religion of the majority population. In addition, it is bounded by a deeply Catholic country (Mexico) on one side and Canada on the other (I don’t know quite how to classify Canada, except I don’t see it as becoming Hindu anytime soon). These are not countries that will be the epicenter of Sanatana Dharma in the future. Please try to understand, as degraded a state as India is in now, and as selfish and materialistic Indians are, the home of Hinduism will always be India.

You seem to strongly feel otherwise.

That’s fine. But here’s the thing - life goes on, inexorably and inevitably,
so one has to choose how to live - with or without hope. The test of character is always what happens when rubber hits the road. If you find that your destiny is to be in the West, that’s your choice and your path. But then BE that true intellectual warrior and be a proponent of Hinduism. Defend your faith and the history of your people. Do what you can. Such prodigious gifts of the mind are not to be thrown away in despair.

I still choose to have hope for my country and my people. I’m sad that you do not share this belief.[/QUOTE]

Well done. Guru’s Guru!