Great response, twilightatdusk!
[QUOTE=twilightatdusk;64575]Thank you. This thread makes me sad.[/QUOTE]
I think what you said was well stated. I don’t understand where the :d:d:d came from or what it means. Either I made a typo or someone hacked into my account, which is possible as my yahoo account got hacked since I joined yoga forums.
Some people don’t like that the outside world doesn’t always agree with their ‘looking within’ solipsism traps. 
As I said, I like yoga and meditation but wonder why it attracts all kinds of weirdos. How good is your version of yoga if it makes you incapable of basic maturity? I am asking my imaginary hacker on this board…
Twilightatdusk,
Anthony Bourdain is a meat-eater and loves meat. Nonetheless he has a number of episodes where he’s in India eating vegetarian food and likes it.
Indian cuisine is world famous. I don’t know what you are talking about when you say its not recognized. What part of the world are you living in? Maybe there are no Indian restaurants where you live.
As far as yoga being a part of Hinduism, I’ve never heard this discussion at any yoga studio. Everyone goes there to do yoga and then go home. Not debate about whether or not yoga came from Hindu culture. Of course it did. What other culture would it have come from?
As far as you saying what you say is “not pc” - LOL! What’s not “politically correct” about it?
"Indian people, at large are condemned people. They are some of the worst charactered people you can meet in the world today. Many Indian people justify their low behaviour by saying this is Kaliyuga, we are just matching the times. I will say I share their pessimism, the times have changed - India is dead. It will never return. Hinduism will continue to thrive, but not in third world India, but in America. "
SuryaDeva, I agree with you 100%
The reason the ideals of Hinduism will thrive in the US and other Western countries is because of its progressivism and liberalism. Indians are caught up in backward mentality. They think “progress” is driving a new car to a fancy mall in Gurgaon (instead of walking to get rid of their fat asses), and then returning home to beat their daughter-in-law.
My grandmother keeps begging to be allowed to arrange my marriage in India and I say there is NO way I would live in this country permanantly anymore as a woman, much less a married one.
The West has the right mix of women’s rights, human rights, childrens’ rights, animal rights (veganism is on the rise, in India they make do with lacto-vegetarianism linked to caste or tradition rather than any sense of compassion for animals) and an awakened environmentalism that is compatible with the yogic vision.
India’s population is too large and too uncivilized to make it a place conducive to true progressive values. It’s dog eat dog and every man for himself. Complete chaos.
If the West can curb its immigration of Muslims, I see it becoming increasingly more and more Hindu in terms of philosophy (sans the backwardness).
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64669]
Anthony Bourdain is a meat-eater and loves meat. Nonetheless he has a number of episodes where he’s in India eating vegetarian food and likes it.
[/QUOTE]
I have no problem with meat eaters. Anthony Bourdain has a problem with vegetarians, which he has gone on record to state many times. Anyway, he was an example of a common phenomenon. Thank you for explaining it away so patronizingly.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64669]
The reason the ideals of Hinduism will thrive in the US and other Western countries is because of its progressivism and liberalism. Indians are caught up in backward mentality. They think “progress” is driving a new car to a fancy mall in Gurgaon (instead of walking to get rid of their fat asses), and then returning home to beat their daughter-in-law.
[/QUOTE]
Your lady-in-manor chip is showing. So what’s good for the goose isn’t good for the gander? How arrogant to say that Indians consider going to a fancy mall as progress. Don’t people go to malls in the Western countries? Can I presume by your statement that you never go to a mall because you are so ?enlightened?? And of course, enlightened people never go to malls, as we all know!
Remind me again, wasn’t a 6 foot tall man trampled to death at a major shopping center in 2008/2009 (or thereabouts) by an early horde of Black Friday shoppers? Yes, very civilized.
Westerners can drive new cars, go to fancy malls, eat in fancy restaurants, go home and beat their spouses/children/pets to death (yes, domestic violence is pretty common here in the West) and never be accused of being backward.
Now if an Indian drives a new car, goes to a fancy mall, Dear Lord they are ass-backwards and materialistic and their sins need to be forgiven. They need to be saved from themselves, and their roots appropriated because the West is so much better at managing these things.
Fat asses? That’s the height of irony considering the US has some of the fattest people I’ve ever seen.
I see what you are doing here. I like how you take all your cliches and biases and neatly weave them together. Very well done.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64669]
My grandmother keeps begging to be allowed to arrange my marriage in India and I say there is NO way I would live in this country permanantly anymore as a woman, much less a married one.
[/QUOTE]
Indeed, that may have been your experience, but it hasn’t been mine. Living in India as a married or unmarried woman is not such a bad thing as you imagine it to be. It is a different life to be sure, but it can be rewarding in its own way. I think you have been fed a pretty steady diet of Western emancipation literature to think that no such thing exists for Indian women.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64669]
The West has the right mix of women’s rights, human rights, childrens’ rights, animal rights? (veganism is on the rise, in India they make do with lacto-vegetarianism linked to caste or tradition rather than any sense of compassion for animals) and an awakened environmentalism that is compatible with the yogic vision.
[/QUOTE]
What is a ?right mix? I do think Western society allows for rights and freedom but they?re not the only ones. The Indian constitution also protects women’s rights. Are you saying this does not happen in India? There are other changes coming to India, slowly but surely. There is awareness of animal suffering but there is tremendous human suffering there as well, and inevitably that takes precedence. How cruddy of you to say this?
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64669]
"…in India they make do with lacto-vegetarianism linked to caste or tradition rather than any sense of compassion for animals…"
[/QUOTE]
“Make do”? Wow, you’re bitter. How do you know that they just make do? The fact that it is codified in the religion, is making do? I don’t get your logic. Does the US protect the rights of animals in those horrific pig and beef factory farms, whose runoff has even reached the Gulf of Mexico? Whose entrails are available for your delight at every corner deli? Because they?re ?farmed? far away from your local yoga studio, so you can?t hear their screams, feel their fear? So it doesn?t impinge on your perfect FREE life. You are like every other Westerner (and from your grandmother comment, you?re not even really white) paying lip service to compassion as long as you get milk for $1.99 a gallon at your grocery store.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64669]
India’s population is too large and too uncivilized to make it a place conducive to true progressive values. It’s dog eat dog and every man for himself. Complete chaos.
[/QUOTE]
Please tell me ? what is too large, and too uncivilized? What does civilization mean to you really? What is a ?progressive? value?
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64669]
It’s dog eat dog and every man for himself.
[/QUOTE]
Clearly, this never happens in the West per your diatribe.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64669]
Complete chaos.
[/QUOTE]
If you were a true yogini per your moniker, you?d be able to see past the chaos. But you?re not I suspect.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64669]
If the West can curb its immigration of Muslims, I see it becoming increasingly more and more Hindu in terms of philosophy (sans the backwardness).
[/QUOTE]
What a paradise you must live in. Free of all influences, begged, borrowed, or stolen.
You are either a remarkably ignorant woman or a clever one. Or both. I get the sense that you delight in stirring the pot. India is a very paradoxical country. For everything you hold to be dear and true, in India you will find the opposite. I?m glad you and SD are in such cohesive agreement. I think you would be singing a very different tune if India was materially more prosperous and less populated.
Dear twilightatdusk,
Kudos! You are great! We need your continued support here. Your answers are great. I was so happy to read your answer and so I read three times again and again to my heart content.
Thanks & Kudos once again! Keep it up!
I have no problem with meat eaters. Anthony Bourdain has a problem with vegetarians, which he has gone on record to state many times.
So? Why does that bother you? He’s allowed to have his opinions. Do we have to censor TV shows now so as not to hurt the sentiments of various foodies?
Living in India as a married or unmarried woman is not such a bad thing as you imagine it to be.
“Imagine”? LOL. I was born there. I lived there. I go there every year.
I recommend you read SuryaDeva’s experience. Poor guy, he had such high hopes of experiencing the wonderful, spiritual people of the Land of Rishis and quickly his delusions were smashed forever. Its 3 pages long and worth a read. I had similar experiences and so have my siblings and many others.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64705]So? Why does that bother you? He’s allowed to have his opinions. Do we have to censor TV shows now so as not to hurt the sentiments of various foodies?
“Imagine”? LOL. I was born there. I lived there. I go there every year.
I recommend you read SuryaDeva’s experience. Poor guy, he had such high hopes of experiencing the wonderful, spiritual people of the Land of Rishis and quickly his delusions were smashed forever. Its 3 pages long and worth a read. I had similar experiences and so have my siblings and many others.
[/QUOTE]
Nobody is being censored. My initial point was that Indian cusine is not given the respect of a ‘world cuisine’ like Italian, French, Chinese, and to some degree even the Thai cuisines are. And I still stand by that.
You do not live in India in the present tense, you ‘visit’. You left India for a better life, so you, my dear, are a materialist. Which is fine, but then you make such a show of being a yogini. And even if you did live in India, my point still stands - all Indian women do not have hellish lives. Perhaps yours was. Maybe that’s what colors your judgement. Of course, by your logic all women in the West have it really really good. There’s the patronization again.
SD can be forgiven for finding India a shock to his system. He grew up in the uber-sanitized West. I think he is a confused soul…his moorings are Indian, but his sensibilities are Western (I get that sense, but I may be wrong since I don’t know him at all). Your despise of India and Indians is pretty obvious. But the funny thing is, you’re really hating yourself.
[QUOTE=twilightatdusk;64734]
You do not live in India in the present tense, you ‘visit’. You left India for a better life, so you, my dear, are a materialist. Which is fine, but then you make such a show of being a yogini. And even if you did live in India, my point still stands - all Indian women do not have hellish lives. Perhaps yours was. Maybe that’s what colors your judgement. Of course, by your logic all women in the West have it really really good. There’s the patronization again.
Your despise of India and Indians is pretty obvious. But the funny thing is, you’re really hating yourself.[/QUOTE]
Excellent points 
“You do not live in India in the present tense”
Where are you?
"You left India for a better life, so you, my dear, are a materialist.
So everyone who was born in India but ends up somewhere else is a “materialist”? Wow.
"all Indian women do not have hellish lives. Perhaps yours was. Maybe that’s what colors your judgement. Of course, by your logic all women in the West have it really really good. "
I never said “all”. There are general patterns that develop over time. The patterns that developed where I live currently are patterns that work really well for women.
I know that Feminism is gaining firm ground in India right now and I fully support it. In fact one of my cousins will be covering Besharmi Morcha in New Delhi.
"SD can be forgiven for finding India a shock to his system. He grew up in the uber-sanitized West. I think he is a confused soul…his moorings are Indian, but his sensibilities are Western "
If his sensibilities are “western” and he is shocked at the level of crude behaviour and abuse he sees in India, then are you saying that crude behaviour and abuse are “Indian sensibilities”?!
I reject that. There are some universal standards of behaviour and what SuryaDeva is experiencing will sadden any empathetic human being, whether Western or Eastern.
If India has any future at all it will be because of people like SuryaDeva and the Indian women like my cousins who are organizing for social change.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64739]Where are you?
[/QUOTE]
Does it matter, where I am?
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64739]
So everyone who was born in India but ends up somewhere else is a “materialist”? Wow.
[/QUOTE]
Did I say everyone? I was referring to you. Did you leave for altruistic reasons then? In which case, I stand corrected.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64739]
"all Indian women do not have hellish lives. Perhaps yours was. Maybe that’s what colors your judgement. Of course, by your logic all women in the West have it really really good. "
I never said “all”.
[/QUOTE]
But you implied it.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64739]
There are general patterns that develop over time. The patterns that developed where I live currently are patterns that work really well for women.
[/QUOTE]
See, now you will defend your right to go from the general to particular, and vice versa, but that doesn’t apply to others yeah? What are these patterns? How do you know they work well for all women? You don’t. You just think they do. How do you know these patterns don’t exist for Indian women?
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64739]
I know that Feminism is gaining firm ground in India right now and I fully support it. In fact one of my cousins will be covering Besharmi Morcha in New Delhi.
[/QUOTE]
Now you’re backtracking. Your initial stance was that women in India have it really really bad.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64739]
[B]My Quote [/B]- "SD can be forgiven for finding India a shock to his system. He grew up in the uber-sanitized West. I think he is a confused soul…his moorings are Indian, but his sensibilities are Western "
If his sensibilities are “western” and he is shocked at the level of crude behaviour and abuse he sees in India, then are you saying that crude behaviour and abuse are “Indian sensibilities”?!
[/QUOTE]
You have a genius for conflating issues and biases. A shock to one’s system can come from exposure to something one hasn’t experienced before. These different things are not necessarily bad things, just different from what one is used to.
I can see many reasons for someone raised in the West to get gobsmacked when they go to India - the heat, dust, the swirling crowds, the noise, color, spices, difference in accents, stray dogsandcowsandparrotsandmynas and everything else besides. It’s a different way of being and it throws one off kilter in a second. India is a paradoxical country. What I’m hearing from you is this - crude behavior and abuse are the domain of poor countries, not of the civilized West. You keep telling yourself that.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64739]
I reject that. There are some universal standards of behaviour and what SuryaDeva is experiencing will sadden any empathetic
human being, whether Western or Eastern.
[/QUOTE]
I cannot speak for SD’s experience in India since I wasn’t there. I read his ‘report’ . Perhaps he had never had anyone behave badly in front of him or with him before. I can also give reports of NRI Indians who come back to India and behave in extremely boorish and pathetic ways with their families and people in general, or of greedy people I know in the West who wouldn’t part with a dime even for a dear friend, but I won’t. You know why? Because I think it is human nature. It is within us how we behave, and behaving badly, being vicious, cruel, mean is neither confined nor dictated by prosperity or lack thereof. And that in no way lessens my sympathy with SD or anyone else who has gone through a hateful experience.
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64739]
If India has any future at all it will be because of people like SuryaDeva and the Indian women like my cousins who are organizing for social change.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps. Maybe not. Everybody has agendas. I think it was AmirMourad who said something genius on motives on another thread and it really struck me at the time.
It is pretty clear from your comments and disgust with Indians that you consider it a backward country. Poor old India, if it were a little less shabby and a little more rich people like Gori Yogini would be all over it like a rash. THEN you would have no problem with Yoga being Hindu or proclaiming yourself Hindu. You’re ashamed of your country is what you are. You’re ashamed of being an (erstwhile?) Indian. As far as I’m concerned you’re part of the problem.
Does it matter, where I am?
My friend, you’re the one who first brought up location when you said,
“you do not live in India in the present tense”.
And most likely, neither do you!
Me:
So everyone who was born in India but ends up somewhere else is a “materialist”? Wow.
You:
Did I say everyone? I was referring to you. Did you leave for altruistic reasons then? In which case, I stand corrected.
My mother left India when I was a very small child. She did not leave because she wanted to “save the world” or “spread the glorious Hindu Dharma” in mleccha desh like a Female Vivekananda or anything noble and altruistic like that.
She left because of extremely sad personal circumstances which I will respect her privacy by not going into detail about with hostile strangers on the internet here. Suffice it to say that while she may not be as altruistic as you are, she is certainly not a “materialist” either.
“Now you’re backtracking. Your initial stance was that women in India have it really really bad.”
In my opinion and from my personal experiences over the years, [U]many of them do[/U]. I have not and will not backtrack on that, [I]ever.[/I]
You:
all Indian women do not have hellish lives.
Me:
I never said “all”.
You:
But you implied it.
Me:
So everyone who was born in India but ends up somewhere else is a “materialist”? Wow
You:
Did I say everyone?
[I][U]Ahhh, but you implied it![/U][/I] … :eek:
See how easy that was Twilight? You and I can go back and forth on this forever and not get anywhere.
Forgive me but my life is just too busy to go tit 4 tat with strangers on the internet over things like personanl opinions.
THEN you would have no problem with Yoga being Hindu or proclaiming yourself Hindu.
LOL. Now you’ve gone mad. I [U]am[/U] Hindu. Yoga [U]is [/U]Hindu. Everybody knows that. Happy now?
“You’re ashamed of your country is what you are.”
I’m a US citizen. In your personal opinion should I be ashamed of that or not?
“You’re ashamed of being an (erstwhile?) Indian.”
Nope, I’m quite at peace with being an erstwhile Indian American, thankyou very much.
As far as I’m concerned you’re part of the problem.
OK!
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64748]My friend, you’re the one who first brought up location when you said,
And most likely, neither do you!
Me:
You:
My mother left India when I was a very small child. She did not leave because she wanted to “save the world” or “spread the glorious Hindu Dharma” in mleccha desh like a Female Vivekananda or anything noble and altruistic like that.
She left because of extremely sad personal circumstances which I will respect her privacy by not going into detail about with hostile strangers on the internet here. Suffice it to say that while she may not be as altruistic as you are, she is certainly not a “materialist” either.
In my opinion and from my personal experiences over the years, [U]many of them do[/U]. I have not and will not backtrack on that, [I]ever.[/I]
You:
Me:
You:
Me:
You:
[I][U]Ahhh, but you implied it![/U][/I] … :eek:
See how easy that was Twilight? You and I can go back and forth on this forever and not get anywhere.
Forgive me but my life is just too busy to go tit 4 tat with strangers on the internet over things like personanl opinions.
LOL. Now you’ve gone mad. I [U]am[/U] Hindu. Yoga [U]is [/U]Hindu. Everybody knows that. Happy now?
I’m a US citizen. In your personal opinion should I be ashamed of that or not?
Nope, I’m quite at peace with being an erstwhile Indian American, thankyou very much.
OK!
:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Oh fish’n’chips! I did not imply anything. I would own my statements if I did so. I said very plainly that YOU (not the generic third person) left India, and are a materialist, and not necessarily in that order either. You also cherry picked the statements that you wished to argue with, not even touching the ones that I showed to be false or where I asked you to prove something.
India is home. I also travel to and live in other countries for work. I did not think this was relevant to the discussion at hand. I commented on your location because you’ve made some nasty remarks about India and my feeling on the matter was that you are on the outside looking in. And I was right.
- You don’t live in India
- You have some personal family circumstance that you have extrapolated into a nationwide crisis
- It is part of your cliche arsenal to push the view that Indian women have virtually no rights compared to Western women
- You have a chip on your shoulder about being more civilized vis a vis Indians in general
I have no interest in exchanging banter with strangers over the net either nor am I a hostile person but your remarks are very distasteful and, dare I say it, uncivilized.
Well, I was under the impression that you are a former Indian. And you are. I do think you are embarassed of your Indian-ness (that old boulder on the shoulder) but clearly not your US-ness! Personally, I don’t care if you are a passport holder of Timbuktoo, but you dismissed an entire country and civilization with the neatest of biased statements. I would love to see you try your cliched statement about driving a new car to a fancy mall, and thinking of it as P-R-O-G-R-E-S-S and going home to beat the d-i-l, on one of your compatriots and report back on the maelstrom that ensues. But you will never do that because you are a hypocrite.
But you think it’s ok to say that about Indians. As if every one of a billion people share those proclivities and fit into the little verbiage straitjacket designed by you. Have you tried it on for size? It might fit.
Yes, many Indian women suffer, due to a combination of circumstances, misfortune, conditioning, lack of education or access to finances. So do women in the West FOR THE SAME REASONS. What I’m trying to explain to you, perhaps not very well, is that it happens everywhere to some degree, even in the US. I have empathy for any woman or man who suffers due to their circumstances or gender in any country.
You seem to have some kind of a love-hate relationship with your Indian roots going on. Perhaps it gives you your anti-Indian identity. Certainly it provides grist to your mill.
And now, I really do think I’ve wasted enough time here (all falling on deaf ears anyways) and need to get a move on to other more important things. As a materialistic Indian, I am duty-bound to grub for my daily bread!
Blah, blah, blah… whateva!
going home to beat the d-i-l,
We don’t do joint families here, bhabhiji.
Alvida and good luck!
This is your fallback response in an exchange?
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64758]
Blah, blah, blah… whateva!
[/QUOTE]
Violence against women is a grave problem that exists worldwide. Your glibness about this being primarily an Indian problem is ominous. Here is your response ?
[QUOTE=GORI YOGINI;64758]
We don’t do joint families here, bhabhiji.
[/QUOTE]
The implication being:
1.All joint families beat their women
2.All Indians live in joint families
Ergo, all Indian women get beat up (preferably daily!).
Anyone with half a brain cell would see what is wrong with that statement. Since you appear to have an LCD (Lowest Common Denominator) mindset, let me break down your cherished beliefs, thusly:
1.All Indians do not live in joint families
2.All joint families do not beat their women
You appear to have some half baked ideas about India and Indians. Of course you have every right to cling to them in the face of the truth. I just thought I?d set the record straight for the reading public.
"Yoga is not a religion and should not [affiliate] with any religion.-T.K.V. Desikachar
" Yoga is not a religion by itself." -B.K.S Iyengar
“without credos or congregations, it can’t properly be regarded as a religion—unless we say that each yogi and yogini comprises a religion of one.”-Yoga Journal
“Nevertheless, what is certain is that ancient Vedic culture, which lays claim to being the first written spiritual tradition in the world, is much older than the loosely formed religion, Hinduism, that sprang from it. The spiritual practice of Yoga was part of Vedic culture long before Hinduism”.-Deepak Chopra
[QUOTE=Yogamark;64783]"Yoga is not a religion and should not [affiliate] with any religion.-T.K.V. Desikachar
" Yoga is not a religion by itself." -B.K.S Iyengar
“without credos or congregations, it can’t properly be regarded as a religion—unless we say that each yogi and yogini comprises a religion of one.”-Yoga Journal
“Nevertheless, what is certain is that ancient Vedic culture, which lays claim to being the first written spiritual tradition in the world, is much older than the loosely formed religion, Hinduism, that sprang from it. The spiritual practice of Yoga was part of Vedic culture long before Hinduism”.-Deepak Chopra[/QUOTE]These people all have commercial interest in yoga not being associated with a particular religion, so do many members on this board.
I think Deepak is right in calling it part of the vedic culture. There is no “hindu” word in any sutra, upanishad, veda, purana. I don’t have a commercial interest either way. I use Hindu because its convenient and widespread. The whole world knows “hindu” but whole world does not know “vedic”. So “hindu” it is. I’m not trying to educate people on the nuances. I’ll leave that up to the swamis, sadhus, godmen and capitalists.
[I]Yoga is not a religion; it is a discipline without dogma. Therefore a person of any faith or fellowship can be considered a yogi.[/I]
Hi scales
You want to say that Hinduism is built on yoga and that is absolutely wrong, you know nothing about hinduism. Yoga is just a part of hinduism. There is nothing wrong to say that Yoga evolved from Hinduism. I am not saying that Yoga is property of hindus only but according to me you can atleast give respect to religion from which Yoga has been evolved.
Yoga is whatever religion you want it to be.