Kundalini and the Breathless State


#34

xtensity i am agree with your thinking that kundalini can be managed without samadhi.

even i believe and i practice and even i had given many lessons to deciples for the same as kundalini will lead to samadhi. by the force of kundalini one can attain samadhi but if the samadhi is fir st step and then kundalini can awakened then what is the use of samadhi

ex. elevator is used to reach to top of the building then only elevator is important but if you reach to top of the building and then elevator is of no use except coming down.
kundalini is the force that works as a elevator and leads a jiva to the shiva to attain samadhi

but the most important thing is that you must control or you must have some one who can control kundalini if it arise very speedly, or uncontrolled manner.


#35

[QUOTE=Xtensity;78479]fakeyogis,

Are you speaking out of faith in a memorized Dogma or out of your own attained Enlightenment?[/QUOTE]

Im speaking out of some experience yes but no im not enlightened to answer your question.


#37

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;78489]Umunhum,

On the forum, words is all that speak, personalities are mostly hidden behind the annonymity of assumed names. The poster writes because he/she wants to communicate to someone from whom a response is intended, even eagerly awaited.

My words are obviously my opinion, and I said so. I don’t sit in judgement nor even intend to insult anyone. You would know this from my posts if you were here long enough.

Each one of us respond on the strength of the respective spiritual experience and abhyasa, and ironically the same is its limitation. I have immensely benefitted from this forum from very insightful posts, but even more from the posts conflicting with “truth” that I hold. So, I am genuinely impressed by some parts of your inaugural post; but equally surprised by some other parts that were not congruent therewith. I stated this conflict. If that is not completely true, along with my limitation in understanding there is something amiss in the narrative as well. Though there are many paths to spiritual goals, the milestones and the signposts are common. And that was the context of my post.

Insult is your perception. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Give me a break! When you wrote that I’m one in a million or naive, what you are really saying is that I’m a miracle or I don’t know what I’m talking about. And since miracles are extremely rare, it is far more probable that I am a fool. Yet some of my explanations imply truth, experience and knowledge and so I truly am a conundrum. Well I don’t believe that there is anything spiritually unique about me at all and I certainly know what I experienced, so there must be another possibility.

What I had was a physiological experience. I found a key that was left behind by Satyananda, put the key in the engine, and turned it. And lo and behold, something turned on. The religious component of this equation happened when I was created and in some respects, how I was guided. The truths I hold definitely conflict with the truths you hold. The truths that I hold come from direct experience and not ?book knowledge.? And apparently, I don’t fit into your cookie cutter world.

Haven’t you found in your life that the simplest explanation, the most logical explanation is usually the right one? Have you ever considered that you might not be the expert that you think you are? That there are many ways to turn on your kundalini and reach the breathless state and you have no knowledge of them? And just because you have no knowledge of something, doesn’t mean it is the wrong path? Of course accepting the above would be quite a blow to the ego wouldn’t it? Especially for someone with so much knowledge about yoga that they wrote a book about it.

I have pretty good reading comprehension skills and completely disagree with you about the context of your post. I didn’t get a ?there are many paths? type of vibe from you. I got a you don’t make sense, your dangerous, and your presenting the wrong path type of vibe from you. So now not only do I think you are incompetent, you are disingenuous as well. And I’ve only been around long enough to read two of your posts. Believe me when I say that I’m not eagerly awaiting your next post. I’ve found that I no longer have any tolerance for incompetence. Whenever somebody is lying to me or talking nonsense, I immediately call them on it. You can reread my second post for an example of this.

Now I’ve read all about that what one finds intolerable in others is a reflection of those qualities in themselves. You strike me as a know it all pompous ass. And so according to this theory, that means I am one too. But believe me when I say I approach yoga with a ?I know nothing except what I have experienced? attitude. That the knowledge I have can fill a thimble and the knowledge I don’t know could fill the ocean. That said I have a thirst for the truth and spend my free time practicing and reading everything that I can get my hands on. And I try to limit my reading material to people that I think are spiritual masters.

You don’t have that approach and in my opinion, you would do well to try to achieve it! I think that you are intelligent enough to know that everything I just wrote is true. My purpose on this board is to try to get a better understanding of what I’m experiencing and what I need to do to reach my spiritual goals. I didn’t come here to make fantastical claims and then provide little or no useful information to the reader which seems to be the modus operandi of some posters. And so of course I’m going to post my methodology in the hope that other people can benefit from my experience.

If you want to continue to converse with me, your going to have to be more forthright. This subject matter is far too important to involve our egos. Good luck on your path. I truly wish you health, happiness, success, and most importantly God Consciousness!


#38

@Umunhum It is okay, really it is.

I appreciate your sharing a very deep and personal experience and so do allot of others who will never comment, it’s ok let people say what they will it does not make it true or valid no matter how they cloak their sneering words.

@Suhas Tambe I would advise you practice nicer conversation skills unless hurting your book sales is your goal.


#39

I have yet to practise khechari.

I must ask. During your pranayama. Does your body experiance a sensation like that of tingling on the skin?

Why don’t you practice kechari? As I’ve stated before, I believe that kechari is the key to everything. When your kechari stage one has progressed enough that you can seal off the back of your throat, you can go breathless and shut off the mind. I have written extensively on how I achieved this. At this stage of progress, meditation then becomes much easier and deeper but the senses will still disturb you.

I have read and heard that when you get to stage 2, you shut off the senses and go into your spine. Your meditations will then go to a much deeper level. Seeker has provided some testimonial evidence of this. Another aspect of this is the mound of nerves at the top of your nasal septum is similar to that of a clitoris. I have read that these nerves become progressively more sensitive with time. When your tongue reaches these nerves, you feel an electrical sensation that gives the yogi a state of bliss. I have been blessed with many intimate experiences with the split tailed variety of our species. And they all received a great deal of pleasure when I stimulated their nerve endings with my tongue.

Upon reaching stage 3 of kechari, you will then be able to internally practice nadi shodhana with the tip of your tongue all day long. Instead of externally using your fingers which makes the practice more cumbersome. This will do the remaining work of cleaning out your nadis, sushumna, and chakras. At the same time, I imagine that you will be experiencing a great deal of bliss. This is what Satyananda had to say about Nadi Shodhana:

Nadi shodhana pranayama is a concentration of ions, or pranic energy, occurs around ida and pingala nadis, increasing in intensity according to the number of rounds practised. In normal breathing this does not happen. With continued practice of alternate nostril breathing, over a long period of time, this concentration is harmonised and sushumna awakens.

Stage 4 of kechari allows the tongue to stimulate both the pituitary and pineal gland and the result is the secretion of amrit, ambrosia, DMT, natural ayahuasca, or whatever else you want to call it. I have read this sends the yogi into a state of ecstasy.

Now again, I have only direct knowledge of sealing the back of the throat, shutting off the mind and meditating in the breathless state. I have read that there is no need for faith or belief in anything. That all you have to do is do your practice and all is coming. That said, most of what I just wrote is not truth to me but beliefs. Do you now have a better understanding of why I believe kechari is the key to everything? That said, who cares what I think, believe or experience? It will only become truth to you when you experiences it.

As far as tingling of the skin, I really haven’t paid that much attention. When I do pranayama, I am focused on my diaphragm, the various mudras or bandhas that I am performing, taking the breath up and down my sushumna or the various chakras that I’m focusing on. When I meditate, my senses come alive and that is why I know that they are the impediment after you quiet the mind. Keep in mind that I always practice on my balcony which overlooks the ocean and so I get a lot of positive sensory pleasure. This includes a nice ocean breeze some of the time but I don’t think that is what your question is referring to when you ask about tingling.


#40

[QUOTE=Xtensity;78496]You’re speaking out of experience on what it takes to become enlightened yet you are not enlightened?

Did you read those ideas out of a book? Was it the same book that wrongly said you had to awaken your Kundalini to reach Samadhi? I don’t mean to insult you but I would be careful about throwing facts around that you’ve read in Yoga books that were written by potentially unaccredited people who could possible be doing so just for the money.

I have read many books on Yoga and Meditation that where filled with utter BS that completely came into conflict with my personal experiences and lead me to believe that the writer did not have as much experience as they say they do.[/QUOTE]

I dont know what book you read but the old scriptures have some profound teachings.

Before you slander people are you actually reading or is your ego making a judging and then you slander? Did i not say i read about kundalini and samadhi and did i not say then they must have lied? So i was open to that it could be a lie.

It is quite easy though to figure out what is needed for enlightenment yoga and buddhism is talking about this and it is described , maybe you missed it, what yoga and buddhism is about?

But to achieve this is harder to manage.

Almost every saint have said that we should help others and so on. Jesus buddha etc. You should read the old books instead of the new beloning to those fake you must have came across according to your post. But reading them will not make you enlightened but practice what it says will take you closer. IT is all written if you have eyes to see.

If you would have come to a point where you understand all your actions will return to you, you would also come to this conclusion. This is some experience. If you experience some of what is written in the old scriptures ,then you can pretty much assume that much of the other thing is true as well with some discernment. But if you never experienced it of course how can you believe.

But this slandering actually shows more about who you are than about me. And im not going slander you back as i would be the same then.

Think of what you got out of slandering me, if you feel content? If you do it is your ego that feels superior that it won the battle and then you know what to work on. The ego is one of the obstacles in spiritual progress. This i have read only for your information. your most welcome to continue your slandering if you want to , but if i do not accept it, it means it stays with you.
In either way i wish you the best.


#41

I have not removed the web under the tongue. I cannot do stage two. I can only place it on the soft palate. " which i normally do".

I will work towards removing it quickly. I am extremely curious what kechari and my pranayama will result in. My pranayama leads to breathlessness due to de-carbonation of the blood.
That is why i asked you about tingling. when you sneeze, the “chill” people feel, the sensation on the skin, that is the tingling i refer do. that “chill” is actually De-carbonation happening in a split second. De-carbonation done purposefully results in the whole body having this feeling. If continued long enough, the sensation starts to subside and is replaced by a sensation of magnetism.

Bliss. is magnificent. And is a variation of this same feeling. at least the electrical/tingling bliss that rushes through like waves.

It sounds like Kechari is a key.
But dont take the human body as a simple door.
For some doors have one lock and thus one key.
An important door has many locks and thus many keys.
Or find yourself a master key :stuck_out_tongue: :slight_smile:


#42

In my limited view, our further conversation is unnecessary. Its your thread and your right to like or not like a post. Our conversation is adding no value to anybody and is a complete diversion.

You have made a lot of assumptions about who I am and my incompetence etc. Fair enough. This is a forum.

I tried to re-read my post several times after your reaction. I still believe my remarks were about the narrative and not the person or the experience. That’s why I ended with a need for a “balanced narrative”. Likewise, it was unfortunate to split the “vanilla” statement from the next sentence where I mentioned the rigors. The two belong together to convey that what appears simple from the narrative is actually very advanced. Hence, my last concern that the apparent simplicity may “present” wrong paths.

I also looked up the word “naive” in the dictionary. Here are 2 of 5 quotes: “having or showing an excessively simple and trusting view of the world and human nature, often as a result of youth and inexperience” and
"admirably straightforward and uncomplicated or refreshingly innocent and unaffected". Does it sound insulting?

You may re-read it, or find no need for it. Please tell me if you see any thing differently. If not, your take on this is already known.

PS: Seeking, thanks for the advice. Never knew the two things connect.


#43

[QUOTE=Avatar186;78521]I have not removed the web under the tongue. I cannot do stage two. I can only place it on the soft palate. " which i normally do".

I will work towards removing it quickly. I am extremely curious what kechari and my pranayama will result in. My pranayama leads to breathlessness due to de-carbonation of the blood.
That is why i asked you about tingling. when you sneeze, the “chill” people feel, the sensation on the skin, that is the tingling I refer do. that “chill” is actually De-carbonation happening in a split second. De-carbonation done purposefully results in the whole body having this feeling. If continued long enough, the sensation starts to subside and is replaced by a sensation of magnetism.

Bliss. is magnificent. And is a variation of this same feeling. at least the electrical/tingling bliss that rushes through like waves.

It sounds like Kechari is a key.
But dont take the human body as a simple door.
For some doors have one lock and thus one key.
An important door has many locks and thus many keys.
Or find yourself a master key :stuck_out_tongue: :)[/QUOTE]

When you say you intend to remove it immediatly and you have no idea what may follow?

As someone who has achieved kechari I can say it was doable without cutting, Imhunum here had a medical condition of being tongue tied, as such he may never have achieved kechari and deemed it valuable enough to make the cuts a little at a time.

Might I suggest just practicing Talabia as Ennio describes it in his book? it does work and if you are unhappy with it you can always cut later.

Kechari might also be very different for you as well, I am just now getting used to it for me it has involved allot of changes. Some of which had very unpleasant side effects.

By the way those feelings you describe can become magnified quit a bit they can also turn into extreme heat and make you feel like you have a sun burn on the inside.

Just be careful it’s your life of course but that does not need said it sounds like you are doing good why rush?


#44

Ah. I am cautious when practicing. I realize some practices can have adverse effects.
Both microcosmic orbit and spinal breathing i will not practice. Personal preference.
De-carbonizing the blood has its own qualities one must deal with.

The tingly feeling i describe has two sides. As the sun so the moon.
The moon cools the body. The tingling is not one of sensitivity but one of numbness.
This is De-carbonation.

Carbonation. The increase causes the body to heat up. The skin to flush red. The tingling is more sensitive. Like that felt while you leg is asleep “pins and needles”

Of corse i heed your warning. I am a firm believer that one extreme can lead to its opposite. So cold that its hot. So hot that its cool. Balance is tricky.
Dangerous.

I rush because my path is not a path. Their is a goal. The path begins when the conditions to walk it have been met. =]

The reply is appreciated greatly ! I look forward to more :slight_smile:


#45

OH! Apologies i forgot a question.

I intend to remove it quickly as i can within my means.
I have no idea what will follow.
As the Particular Pranayama i do is powerful. Kechari sounds to be very powerful as well. SO! How one will effect the other i am Curious.

Ps. I have tried to discuss my particular pranayama practice on here before hand.
It dosnt seems to rouse much discussion. As well i have posted a separate thread in motive to rouse discussion.


#46

[QUOTE=Avatar186;78527]OH! Apologies i forgot a question.

I intend to remove it quickly as i can within my means.
I have no idea what will follow.
As the Particular Pranayama i do is powerful. Kechari sounds to be very powerful as well. SO! How one will effect the other i am Curious.

Ps. I have tried to discuss my particular pranayama practice on here before hand.
It dosnt seems to rouse much discussion. As well i have posted a separate thread in motive to rouse discussion.[/QUOTE]

What is for you. One final word though in my thread on kechari a person did post they had there’s removed by a Doctor and still could not achieve Kechari you might want to look at that post and contact that person for more information before going ahead with a permenant alteration.

I do not know one way or the other if you might loose some nerves needed for really effective Kechari but I am way too cautious to take that chance of course I did not have to just my good fortune I guess.

Okay through being a know it all, just be careful. I really hope it works out well for you.

Please do describe your pranayama I would like to read of it here please.


#47

I will most likley snip the tendon slowishly.
As well.
Pranayama~Hyperventilation~Decarbonation
That is the title for the thread. It is under the spirit path section of this forum. I just started it. I only put a general amount of information. Am waiting for the ball to start rollin.
:slight_smile:


#48

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;78522]
You have made a lot of assumptions about who I am [/QUOTE]

View things from my perspective for a minute. I have only read 4 books on yoga. I have read several more books on the asanas that said they were about yoga but weren’t. The 4 books I read were Ennio’s free book 1 and 2, Motoyama’s Theories of the Chakras, Norman Paulsen’s Sacred Science and Satyananda’s Kundalini Tantra. Ennio and Paulson are both followers of Yogananda, Paulsen being a direct disciple.

Both Motoyama and Satyananda were disciples of Sivananda and have a lot of commonality in their teachings. They both say first turn on your kundalini (which resides in the muladhara chakra). This sends more prana up the spine which then allows you to efficiently clear your nadis, sushumna, and chakras. Then raise your kundalini. Motoyama says turning on your kundalini takes about a year. So I start practicing various breathing techniques found in all these books and turn my kundalini on and describe how I did it on this site. In Ennio’s and Satyananda’s books they both say mixing the apana with prana by the practice of Uddiyana awakens the kundalini. Motoyama gives the mudras, bandhas, and some pranayama techniques but says you should go to the school in India for the more advanced breathing techniques.

You have a message that shows up every time you post that says you are the author of making of a yoga master. So I think that you should have a good understanding of the various techniques that I practiced and their effects on the body. And so it should come as no surprise to you that I turned my kundalini on. Instead you start challenging my credibility and things that I’ve experienced. Then you make statements that challenge the teachings of the masters that I have studied.

How would you react if you were me?

And this is not a reflection of you, but this is not the first resource I turned to when I started seeking advice. I talked to a yoga instructor that teaches other yoga instructors at a retreat center. The Bio states that she didn’t know what yoga was until she met her Guru. Her linage came from Sivananda. Yoga to me means union. The union of the soul with God Consciousness. Anahata to Sahasrara. Physically it means opening up some blockage so the electricity can flow. To make a long story short, I asked her how far advanced was her kechari. She said that she wasn’t ready to practice kechari. I then asked her how could she go breathless then. She said huh? That’s dangerous what you do. You could get brain damage.

Then I dropped by Yogananda’s SRF in Los Gatos California and spoke to the nicest guy you could ever meet. He was a director and had been there 13 years. When I asked him about the breathless state he started talking about his experience of breathlessness when sense went in. And I said that I haven’t reached kechari stage 2 yet. He looked at me puzzled and said he doesn’t practice kechari. And with my experience with my yoga instructor in mind, I said to him “then you can’t go breathless anytime you want.” No, he said, he has to have a really good meditation that happened only a few times. Why don’t you practice kechari and you can do it all the time? And he said that he has his Guru and that is all he needs. I still have pain in my stomach when I reflect about him. Here was the nicest guy in the world that wouldn’t do something so easy that would magnify his practice’s effectiveness, bliss, and ease multiple times.

The breathless state shuts off your mind so you can meditate effortlessly! Why fight your mind?

It’s great to have Bhakti but you have to approach your body like an engineer. The reason we breathe is because the outgoing breath stimulates the nerves on the roof of our mouth. Sealing off the back of the throat with your tongue is far easier than slowing down the breath by not moving and trying to still the mind. Then we have to contend with what feels like cilia type tissue that moves back and forth like falling dominoes in our diaphragm stimulating us to breathe. The stronger the muscle of the diaphragm, or the better in shape it is, the quicker the cilia tissue will stop vibrating when you stretch it back and forth from Uddiyana Bandha to an upright pose. I believe Breath of Fire and Maha Mudra are really important to strengthen and tone the diaphragm. And definitely pay attention to the time on your Kumbhakas (pauses between the breath). Satyananda’s kriyas take your mind off the breath by having you do cycles of concentration on different chakras. Paulsen has you do 3 moos (mula bandha) between the pauses of both inhales and exhales. Sometimes I do 5 / 10 (before inhale / before exhale), sometimes I do 10 / 20, sometimes I do none.


#49

Discussion of ideas is greater than discussion of persons.

Discuss things impersonally. Discuss the personal in an impersonal manner.

Even the bhakti is scientific minded :wink: and the best scientists have great passion. But to be absorbed into one or the other wholly leaves you either wild with no head or as a dead tree void of spirit.
but that is just my personal opinion and my way of addressing a situation impersonally. =]


#50

lets move on shall we beating a dead horse and getting the last word is not productive.

I would love to hear more about your systematic approach umunhum, please do break it down in a easy to follow way so someone can copy it exactly.

I think your direct experiences have much to offer to the rest of us.

I prefer to hear what others have directly experienced rather than theory, holy books and guessing because until you fry the fish you can not eat.

I want to hear from the guy cooking not the guy writting the cookbook there is a huge difference. If you don’t believe me try eating the book.


#51

Yoga has six different schools and several variations and approaches. Patanajli documented a path called Raja Yoga, (royal yoga). It is so called for a reason. At the base of Vedic literature is a concept of the subtle manifesting in gross in successive subtle-gross casscade. Corollary is that (relatively) subtle is a cause of the gross. The spiritual path of self-realization works in the reverse. By experiencing the gross one gains knowledge of the subtle. Corollary is - the subtle is the best position to control the gross.

The human race has seen distinct time periods when the self-realization process meant taming/ mastering the physical (karma yoga); mastering the physical through the astral (bhakti yoga) and mastering the astral through the intellect (dnyana yoga). Now, this school of thought believes, is the time for taming/ mastering the mind through which everything can be controlled. The total control is needed to transcend into the pure consciousness. The proponents of each path have claimed the ability to transcend; and each claim is valid given the individual seeker who is a multi-variate model of karma and possibilities.

What Patanjali also did was laying down of recognizable milestones irrespective of the path that is chosen. It brought in some amount of standardization and codification. This universality is sometimes not seen because “ashtanga” (eightfold) is also taught here as one style of yoga.

This bears on the khechari in two ways. Can the practice deliver the ultimate state of samadhi? Potentially, it does. How durable that would be? results will be quicker but the change agents being predominantly physical, less durable than bhakti, dhyana or raja. (in that order) The second implication is more subtle. Breath and prana are not the same thing. Breathing is a process, prana is life-force. The breathlessness is an intended result of prana taking charge. Breath becomes redundant and need not carry prana as it does in the early stages when the seeker does not have a handle on prana. To have breathlessness alone as the aim is therefore a misplaced priority.

Having said that, some people do inherit accumulated spiritual legacy of earlier lifetimes. Each person doesn’t need to climb all the steps; some start higher. Instead of making the breathlessness as the focus, it may help to learn advanced pranayama techniques to build on the natural ability of sustaining without breath. That would not only give ability to harness the life-current itself, but also reveal knowledge of the grosser level phenomenon like breathlessness. (This is from personal experience)

(A physical checkup may benefit just to ensure that no other effect has done any harm while breathlessness alone was being observed.)


#52

A “master” in the field knows all areas.
If I have my PhD in message therapy. I know more than one type of message and can perform them. Becoming proficient in one area first helps me become proficient in other areas of my field.
As people we seem to have trouble mastering one area first.
but that is because available understand seems limited. History seems to engulf things things and we can’t travel to it. Burning all today’s books and computers would cripple our civilization.

In short. Lets say kechari works for samadhi. Once I am used to it and proficiant. I try samadhi without kechari. I become proficiant in both.
But this is my way of approaching things. I personally have difficulty mastering one path. Lol understanding it comes with mastery. Both are a pain. Lmao. Thank you for allowing me to express these opinions =]


#53

I have to agree with Suhas Tambe breathlessness is not the end all and be all nor is it even a goal as far as I am concerned.

For me it occurs as a by product of what I am doing and I am usually so focused on inner activity that I do not even notice it has occurred until some time has passed. Then I realize I am not breathing I do not feel like I need to and the next thing you know the mind starts wondering why and if maybe the body should take a breath anyway even though it does not feel the need.

This minds wandering in turn cuts the energy flows experienced strongly and sure enough now the body wants to breath. So breathlessness is something that not only takes getting used to but can be distracting as well.

So I gently Guide the mind back the energy flows bloom again and the breathless state occurs sometimes for long periods of time sometimes not.

When there has been enough of this activity I know. Sure I can perform an activity to produce this result but I know this is very unnatural and as such harmful.

On Kechari I am very much a beginner with Kechari, at first the process was overwhelming many new things were experienced some pretty unpleasant to deal with later due to too much crown activity.

I am finding myself agreeing again with Suhas Tambe Kechari at first is something wonderful but as time goes on you just get used to it, You learn to control your own nervous system in this new configuration or so it is happening for me. [B][I]I have expanded more on this and just posted over here for those interested to avoid hijacking this thread[/I][/B]

http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f20/kechari-happening-from-talabia-10293.html


#54

hi seeking

your opinion is right that when we focus on the inner activity then every thing will happen automatically as god is more intelligent than us. let every thing on the god and then just you observe the total system. just surrender your self to the god

thank you