Non-violence and self defense

Spirituality
#1

Hi all. As the father of two young boys, and a practicing yogi trying to live non-violence in thought, word and deed, I’m wondering what to teach my kids about self-defense.

I’m hoping to start a general discussion here, but of course, as a dad, my main concern right now is the need to teach my kids. I’m already striving to model non-violent behavior, and teaching them that violence is not an acceptable solution to problems, but what else can I/should I be doing?

After much reflection and study, I’ve come to the realization that ego is at the very heart of the idea “I must defend myself”. As stated in numerous spritual texts, including most clearly in the Gita, there is really no “me” to defend. The immortal Self, the spark of divinity in all of us, is untouchable, cannot be harmed, and is eternal. The “me” that seems to need defending is an illusory construct of the lower mind.

So, in short, one way to answer the question of what to teach kids about self-defense is simply that there is nothing to defend. But this doesn’t strike me as practical, since as any parent knows, kids (and most adults!) seem to be nothing but ego. Unless a child happens to be born in a state of unusual spiritual advancement, there will be much work to be done to overcome the ego-sense (as all of us who are walking the spiritual path know all too well). What can we tell a more normal child who feels the ego drive we all feel?

My main fear for my kids is that they will be physically harmed, and that they might physically harm others (not that they show any overt signs of violence now, but I see the general possibility for any human being). So there is my dilemma: I don’t want to promote violence by teaching them to use violence to protect themselves, but I also don’t want them to be harmed.

I’d love to hear any ideas on this!

#2

[QUOTE=dsforce;15778]Hi all. As the father of two young boys, and a practicing yogi trying to live non-violence in thought, word and deed, I’m wondering what to teach my kids about self-defense.

I’m hoping to start a general discussion here, but of course, as a dad, my main concern right now is the need to teach my kids. I’m already striving to model non-violent behavior, and teaching them that violence is not an acceptable solution to problems, but what else can I/should I be doing?

After much reflection and study, I’ve come to the realization that ego is at the very heart of the idea “I must defend myself”. As stated in numerous spritual texts, including most clearly in the Gita, there is really no “me” to defend. The immortal Self, the spark of divinity in all of us, is untouchable, cannot be harmed, and is eternal. The “me” that seems to need defending is an illusory construct of the lower mind.

So, in short, one way to answer the question of what to teach kids about self-defense is simply that there is nothing to defend. But this doesn’t strike me as practical, since as any parent knows, kids (and most adults!) seem to be nothing but ego. Unless a child happens to be born in a state of unusual spiritual advancement, there will be much work to be done to overcome the ego-sense (as all of us who are walking the spiritual path know all too well). What can we tell a more normal child who feels the ego drive we all feel?

My main fear for my kids is that they will be physically harmed, and that they might physically harm others (not that they show any overt signs of violence now, but I see the general possibility for any human being). So there is my dilemma: I don’t want to promote violence by teaching them to use violence to protect themselves, but I also don’t want them to be harmed.

I’d love to hear any ideas on this![/QUOTE]

Why do you have an interest in self defense? Is you local prone to violence?

I will give you my two views: as a survivalist and as a person that had a passing interest in Buddhist studies.

In any case, teach them violence does not bring one peace. But sometime one person must die for another to live. But this desire instilled in all living creatures for self preservation is part of life and natural; law and not just ego.

Also teach them that our world is decomposing around us and there will be more violence in it no doubt so it is good to be prepared. (but I may be wrong with my perception about this decomposition.)

Jeff Cooper, the godfather of modern pistol defense theory wrote a little book called ‘Principles of Personal Defense.’ It is a classic and I recommend you read it. In it he outlines the 7 principles of defense. They are:

Alertness
Decisiveness
Aggressiveness
Speed
Coolness
Ruthlessness
Surprise

Mastering these principles may mean the difference between you living or your assailant taking all you own including your life as well as the lives of your family.

Jeff Cooper. (Quote condensed)

"Anyone who willfully and maliciously attacks another without sufficient cause deserves no consideration. We are fully justified in valuing the life and person of the intended victim more highly than the life of the pernicious assailant. The attacked must be stopped - at once and completely. An armed man is dangerous as long as he is conscious. Take no chances - put him out. When your life is in danger and under lethal attack don’t be kind - Be harsh - Be tough - Be ruthless.’

…that about sums up the survivalists view.

As for Buddhism / Taoism/ Ego?

Certain Buddhists and Taoists I run into, especially the debaters, great philosophers and sensationalists, like to promote the idea of there is “no right and wrong” to judge in life. Taoist’s believe that if we do not favor right or wrong, good or bad, beauty or ugliness we will not become attached to such outcomes. They also believe that the cosmic forces do not favor any of these things but treat all with equanimity, so they wish to mimic the cosmos to be in unity with it.

While this extreme view of “no right or wrong” holds some truth, it also needs to be balanced with the idea of the conventual view of right and wrong to find a balanced “middle path” view of right and wrong if we wish to live within society. In general, we cannot say what is good bad, right or wrong for others since we do not know where they are on the path of their existence and what they need to learn or overcome to get where they are going.

On the other hand, decisions have to be made to survive in our world and when decision have to be made so do judgments have to be decided on-so yes we must have a basis for deciding to go left or right in life. The part of this idea that helps me with anger and prejudice with others is to remember we cannot tell others what is right for them. We can make suggestions, but since we are not the “end all” in the universe we just do not know. So, I try to remember this when I get too judgmental. This middle path view can also be applied to the idea of existence and non existence as well for those having trouble with this concept.

The ego is the ‘self’ or personality. The self cannot be pinpointed. This is why some Buddhists believe in no self. The Buddhists also point out that everything is impermanent, so you, me and they will not exist one day and we will be vanished, even our bones. While this is all true, it is also true that gravity or the wind cannot be seen or pinpointed - yet they exist.

Many other things as well exist, but cannot be shown. And while we may not exist ultimately, we exist in the temporary planes of existence as most things do whether animate or inanimate. I usually don’t get into this type of debate arguing for existence or non existence. It doesn’t matter to me. My peace is not hinged on being 100% right with this topic of existence or non existence. I take the balanced view of the extremes.

The part of our ego that causes us problems is when ego blocks us from seeing the truth cause we can’t look beyond our own prejudices, likes or dislikes. This is when we need to scale back on the ego or the self will. In other cases, some persons might benefit from more ego. In the end it takes BALANCE.

The three unwholesome roots of delusions, greed and hate are very basic to a Buddhist practice. Out of these three, delusion is the foundational root, for without seeing delusions for what they are, you cannot distinguish the other two unwholesome roots of greed and hate.

Psychologist William James once said, “A great many people believe they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.” This about sums it up - seek truth and test often for truth. This testing helps with disconnecting the ego from the decision and helps us to be truth based.

#3

By studying martial arts, your children would learn how to end violence. They would develop the self confidence to not fight, this confidence will radiate from them and they would not be seen as easy targets.

If you just don’t like the idea of learning an aggressive martial art, try Aikido. Aikido is a self defense style that is centered on the principles of nonviolence.

#4

Greetings my friend :slight_smile:

If your pinkie finger was full of ego, it might think, “I am separate and alone” while another part of you would be observing and think, “My dear pinkie, how I love you. You are not alone, I welcome you when you come to realize this.”

We all know that the pinkie finger is a part of something much greater and serves many amazing purposes. If your egotistical index finger felt it should wear a ring that was on your pinkie finger, who cares, let it wear it, it’s silly for the pinkie and index finger to fight. But if your pinkie finger was in danger of being cut while slicing a bagel because of a disconnect between it and the index finger, would you want it to act accordingly so that it wasn’t hurt?

Like your egotistical pinkie and index fingers, most of us feel separate and alone, when we’re a part of something much greater and we each serve a purpose. You and I aren’t so separate after all. If you’re about to be cut, please act accordingly so that you’re not. Avoid the blade and diffuse the situation if at all possible because it is as silly for us to fight as our pinkie and index finger to fight.

If I’m the pinkie finger and I finally REALIZE I’m part of something greater and FEEL this truth, what would I do if the egotistical index finger attacked me? I personally would let what was meant to happen, happen, because I’d realize I brought it upon myself.

I say all this because I am tired of cutting myself.

#5

A principle my martial arts teacher brought to our class is that we train in order to lessen the general amount of violence on the scene at the time. It doesn’t take much skill to kill someone – just lots of repeated force. The skill comes in when you want to make sure everyone in the fight walks away without big injury, and in helping you not panic so you can apply this skill rather than throw a bunch of punches and kicks.
It is wonderful that you are concerned that your children learn this part of life. I hope the martial arts instructor you have chosen to help you with this lesson has a similar understanding and will talk about it openly with the students.

#6

How one would raise their children, it seems, would depend on their context. Ultimately you will teach your boys by your life. Ergo what you model for them will be far more important than what you say to them.

Since you’ve asked the question on what I believe is a yoga board I prefer to respond to you within that context. That said I will not be discussing martial arts. That’s for another board:-)

Violence and self defense are not synonyms.
If you are seeking to live within the yamas and niyamas and you would also like to provide that option to your children, then consider himsa as harming and its opposite (ahimsa) as loving, rather than non-violent. Though a non-violence construct is superb when applied equally.

But this does not imply an absence of self-defense. In fact this is the very question being put to Arjuna in the Gita. Simply put, is it his dharma to fight the army on the other side of the battlefield? Gandhi’s dharma was clearly non-violence. Mohammed Ali’s clearly was not. Your children may be encouraged to clearly seek, find, and identify their individual dharma (svadharma) so that they may live their lives in integrity and harmony.

Sometimes someone who yells at us needs to have their energy met and be yelled at in return. Other times they need to be soothed. No one rule fits it all.

I would not instill any fears in my children. However if they felt the need to defend themselves and that defense was from others preying on them I would support them - after discussing their feelings about it at length.

Teach them to seek their dharma AND teach them the art of discernment. In this way they will always be prepared for what may come at them.

Beating on each other, however, is absolutely not allowed:-)

#7

Dear Sir,

Be careful that you don’t create a world of fear for yourself and your children. What do i mean? By thinking and dwelling on the fact that your children need protection and that they need to (de)fend for themselves in a big bad world, you create unknowingly a fear on which they will pick up. They will live in fear because they will think they don’t know how to fend for themselves in that big bad world and that they world out there is just there to get us.

From my limited view, help your children to realise their dharma or duty in life as IA have also stated. In other words allow them to develop with confidence in life.

Next lead by example, if you are assertive (and please most people equate assertiveness with aggression, it is not the same) and show them how to handle a situation correctly without resorting to violence or aggression, that example will mean more to them than teaching them how to use their fists etc.

Lastly, enjoy their upbring and development, be loving and teach them also that even in stadning up for your own rights their is compassion, love and kind heartedness. Teach them the value of forgiving in such situations as well, it will help them tremendously.

Good luck, I think it must be a challenge raising kids today. :slight_smile:

#8

Let those who pray for peace, prepare for war.

#9

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful and thought-provoking comments. As the range of responses demonstrates, this is a very complex question with no easy answers.

I’d like to continue with some further (random) observations. First, as Pandara says, I don’t want to create excessive fear in my kids, but I do want them to be aware that violence is part of this world, and that some people see it as a legitimate solution to problems. While I will teach them to avoid situations that can lead to violence, to avoid fights unless it’s really the last resort, and to think, speak and behave with kindness, I am torn over whether I should give them actual physical training in some self-defense method.

I think that by modeling peaceful behvior, not creating fear in them, building their confidence, educating them about how to avoid dangerous situations, talking about behaviors and attitudes that invite violent responses, etc., that they’ll be very well prepared to be safe. But my mind keeps nagging me with the “what ifs”. What if all this fails and they find themselves needing to use violence to keep from being injured? This is probably a very remote liklihood (given that all the aforementioned steps are taken), but it nags at me.

Keepitlow, I was originally thinking not so much about crazies and guns, etc, but more about the schoolyard variety of bullying, etc, but your comments give food for thought. I don’t want my sons to feel intimidated and fearful of anyone. Not that I want them to ever think they can go anywhere, anytime because they’re tough guys – absolutely not! But I want them to have some practical way to respond to bullies and the skills to prevent themselves from being hurt.

Regarding svadharma, I totally agree with you, IA. As Khalil Gibran said in his great poem, “Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself. They came through you but not from you and though they are with you yet they belong not to you.” It very well may be that my sons have the warrior heart and will want to fight/defend dharma. I cannot stand in their way, but only give them wise counsel in choosing their battles. But even for a khishatriya (warrior class), using violence per se, or intending to cause harm for personal reasons, is not permitted. Hence, there is still the need to learn the whys, not merely the how, of fighting.

MichaelJ, I’ve had the same idea myself, but still wrestle with it. My concern is that throughout history, when manking builds weapons, they are inevitably used. Can we really expect a kid not to try to use his newfound martial arts skills for the wrong reasons? Or is this just part of the learning process? And, is it really possible to find instructors these days who both know and can teach the real heart of martial arts, ie, it’s not about fighting at all? (Just some questions that came up for me – not to repudiate your ideas.)

Sometimes I wonder if just being completely passive, refusing to ever fight, would be just as effective as having fighting skills in actually remaining safe. I don’t live in a particularly violent place, so stayinng out of fights and away from violence is more a matter of my own behavior in not attracting them, by controlling myself! But there could be times when violence comes despite my best intentions to avoid it. Then what? Would absolute passivity work just as well as the macho ideal of being some sort of fighting monster? Buddhists, hellp me out here, but I think there’s a story of Buddha offering his own head to a monster who was terrorizing the countryside. Buddha didn’t try to kick ass, or use magical powers, etc – he simply overcame the monster with the power of love. Is this just a story, or a model for our own behavior?

Plenty to think about.

#10

Dsforce,

I can understand the nagging what ifs. I live currently in one of the most violent and aggressive societies on this planet - South Africa. I have never been trained in anything to use to protect myself from an attack or violence or aggression, my father never saw the need for it when I grew up and I was never attracted to such things as well.

But, I have made a decision, I will not allow it to get the better of me and to confine my life to fear of it and I will not emmigrate like so many of my fellow countrymen.

Sofar in my life Spirit has steered me clear of any harm, violence and aggression and for that I am very grateful. Part of my morning meditation and prayers is to bless my country and all its inhabitants, to ensure that I spread Light wherever I go and to ask the Grace of the Divine to keep me safe.

I know with children it is a bit more difficult, all I can say here is why don’t you trust your inner feeling, I gather that you are spiritually aware, why not meditate upon it, find the answer in your heart and act accordingly. Remember you have a duty to teach your children well, to teach them well for me is always to strike the balance between all polarities in life.

#11

I think it is a very good subject.

Lots of people knwo about Kung Fu monks. There was even a serial Kung Fu: The Legend
Continues, with David Carradine in the main role.

First of all, they were monks, of best morality and faith in Buddha.

Second, they were warriors. They DEFENDED themselves and defended others. Was this in contradiction with their faith and morality ? In my opinion, they were right to do so. Defending against evil is a duty.

A few moths ago I watched a Chinese documentary about Kung Fu training in monasteries, during our times. Some youngsters were performong incredible acts, like
headstanding in one finger only.

#12

Hi dsforce,

I think this pattern of fear “I must defend myself” comes from experiences when we had no strength to make our boundaries.

I recommend you the book "Eastern body, Western mind (Psychology and the Chakra System as a Path to the Self). I truly believe it can be helpful. Here are some qoutes:

The first issue to solve is learning to care for yourself. With a basic trust in ourselves, we can better face the unknown.
For a healthy ego, it is OK to make mistakes. How can we reach and grow if we can’t make mistakes? And without growth, how can we develop a sense of our own power?
In order to escape the narrow traps of personal limitation and approach the magnificent expanse of totality we must reclaim our power.
Therefore, if we want our children to grow up as autonomous individuals, to have power, and accept responsibility, we need to supply appropriate guidance without suppressing the delicate, emerging ego. And may the patience and strength of will guide us in the process. They will surely be needed.

Good luck!

#13

There is a lot of myth that surrounds the martial arts. One of those myths is that it is only used for self defense. The fact is, there are hundreds of styles of martial arts, each created for a specific purpose. Some are for sport, some for self-defense, some for war, etc… Any will most likely do for giving your children confidence and some measure of security. It is up to you to provide the morality, don’t expect a martial arts teacher (or anyone else) to do this for you.

That being said, I recommended Aikido because it is the only martial art that I am aware of that has nonviolence intrinsic in it’s teaching. The goal of Aikido is to ward off attacks without hurting your attacker. This is done by throwing or joint locking defenses verses the aggressor’s attacks. Punching and kicking are not a big part of Aikido because those are aggressive techniques. Aikido is defensive only and would be difficult to abuse.

I understand this is a Yoga forum and you are requesting opinions from a yoga point of view. Unfortunately, I can only provide a martial arts perspective and hope that it will be helpful. I’m sure others are much more knowledgeable when it comes to yoga as I am just a beginner.

#14

A mastered violence can be the solution of a problem, see the Bhagavad Gita, the most famous scripture of India, a yogic treatise, the situation takes place on a battlefield ! Arjuna doubts about the rationale of the battle and asks Krishna, the Divine teacher and friend for some guidance. An extreme non-violence can be criminal. Ahimsa should be understood with flexibility, non-acting can leave room to tyranny, mass-murder… If nobody had taken the arms against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in WWII, what would have become of the civilizations on Earth ? The current situation is that life on Earth is violent, right from the cellular level (immune system), it is struggle for life. A martial art education can fit with some yogic and spiritual ideals, a healthy martial art taught not out of fear but with values of honesty, service, chivalry, humility, courage…

Philippe

#15

Lots of great discussion so far. I’ll throw in my two cents’ worth. I like J. Krishnamurti’s discussion about violence which extends beyond the physical. He says (and I like this) that violence is any form of conflict, whether inner or external; external conflict stems from inner conflict. For example, ‘wanting’ is violence because ‘wanting’ is not accepting the present. Non-acceptance is violence. It seems to me that letting kids learn self defense is not encouraging or teaching violence and will not necessarily result in violence. Likewise, not letting kids learn self-defense does not mean they won’t be violent. It’s lack of awareness that results in violence. Inner conflict results in violence. Let kids pursue activities they like and are adept at and then teach and encourage awareness. Yoga has taught me awareness and I am a less violent person since I started yoga. Doing yoga (hence embracing non-violence) does not mean I can’t study self-defense. Yoga teaches and lets me practice awareness that I can then apply and practice in all parts of my life.

#16

Ahimsa useless against terror: Dalai Lama

The Dalai Lama, a lifelong champion of non-violence today candidly stated that terrorism cannot be tackled by applying the principle of ahimsa as the minds of terrorists are closed.

#17

I recommend judo for your kids, I practiced it for more than ten years.

Its a beautifull, non-violent martial art. You can learn how to control your opponent without harm. When your kids are older, they can learn aikido wich is also non-violent.

I dont think learning martials arts is contrary to the yoga philosophy. In Japan and china, they have been mixing martial arts and Buddhism for a long time.

#18

Children do what we do, not what we say or think we should do.

So be nonviolent.

In the Bosnian war, a man, threatened to be killed, was put to bite off another mans testicles.

Question: Me, or him ?

If physical survival is the highest good, than all goes.
If not, than what is it ?

There must be something, if a great teacher taught us to turn the other cheek.
Karma. If my karma is to suffer, than I cannot avoid it. If my karma is not to suffer, yet I do, I still can stop the karmic chain to enfold, by accepting the suffering.

You and I (I have a little girl), we cannot save our children from their karma. Sureley, we are part of that karma, and that is also good and bad in the same time. I have very good parents, yet they could not do anything to prevent my sufferings. Especially after I have grown up. But they gave me things I didnt even know I posess until I needed them.

Trust the wisdom of their karma, and the wisdom of your karma.

PS.

Martial arts are great as they teach them to be confident in their powers. Any discipline, if willingly acceptedm and coming from their own determination, is good. That way they will become self reliant, brave and peaceful kids. Most serious practicants of martial arts or any other sport I met, they were very nice, calm, and happy people.

#19

Thanks for this very balanced and insightful view!

#20

I am not a father, but I understand your need, and I do think it is right you are questioning what to do in this situation, as it is a bad world out there, and your children need to be aware of it and how to course their lives through it will as little aggravation as possible.

The great what if, I have been there on that, I have always been non violent, and I believed in avoiding trouble. I learned how to back down gracefully and submit to others ideas so as to avoid confrontation. This served me well for 34 years until trouble came to find me, I was attacked from behind, kicked unconscious and robbed. Apparently my assailants wanted the keys to my bright yellow VW camper, my mode of transport caused the attack. My defence was hopeless, I was ill prepared, I could’nt fight beyond a few flails, I could not defend myself and so suffered the consequences, which to this day, seven years later, I still suffer, but I still believe in non violence.

Early on after my injuries had healed, I did try Tai Chi, as that was I believed an art form, an exercise and if one is good enough controlled and focused, a means of defence. But now I am same as I was, depression killed the Tai Chi, I just keep away from any source of trouble, I am constantly scanning searching for trouble hotspots and their potential, never relaxed, and rarely going out. So, what I would say to you you can teach non violence, that is admirable, but your children do need to learn how to defend themselves as a last resort.

A friend I once had, an olympic class martial artist when asked what is the best form of defence, he replied to turn away, cross the road, keep out of it, do anything to avoid physical defence. To defend my physical means is an absolute last resort, never a first option, as to use physical energy foremost, displays a lack of control and a failure of the self.

There is nothing wrong in learning how to physically defend oneself as an absolute last resort, hopefully by strength of will and other techniques, violence will always be avoided, but nowhere does anything say one had to risk death in the pursuit of ideals. Whoever, whatever, if ever there is something out there guiding us, I am sure they do not mean us to die, but go on living, serving mankind.