Persecution of Hindus and ending it

[QUOTE=charliedharma;54777]I have read a little around this subject but have never come across denials of the existence of Christ , not that im bothered one way of the other was just interested to know how you have come to know this.

I mean what form does your Yoga take , any school or favoured teacher /guru , particular path of yoga.[/QUOTE]

The denial of the biblical christ is not taught by any Yoga school, but it is arguments from theologians. They have found no evidence whatsoever for the biblical Christ ever existing and have found obvious historical inaccuracies in the bible. For example, the bible mentions how much Christ’s fame had spread in Judea and that the Roman emperor was himself aware of him. However, actual history has found there is no mention of any Christ, no historians of the time have any record of him. No evidence has been found for a town called Nazarath every existing. The only mention of Christ found, is centuries after his death, when a cult of Christ was forming. There were several of these and each claimed Christ said this, and Christ said that, and Christ did this, and Christ did that.

Some theologicans based on this claim that Christ did not actually exist but it is a myth assembled from other myths prevalent at the time. However, the general consensus is he probably did exist, but his actual life and what he taught is going to be diametrically different.

[QUOTE=charliedharma;54777]I have read a little around this subject but have never come across denials of the existence of Christ , not that im bothered one way of the other was just interested to know how you have come to know this.

I mean what form does your Yoga take , any school or favoured teacher /guru , particular path of yoga.[/QUOTE]

Read the epic of Gilgamesh and and compare it to the story of Noah. Research about Western Asian fertility mother cults and compare that to Mary. Look at the pithy sayings in the Bible and compare it to Analects, Greek fables, and so forth. Its as easy as pie to see that Christianity is just another cult that had heavy influences from the mythology rampant at the time and arose in the right place at the right time.

I do not practice Yoga. :smiley:

[QUOTE=Nietzsche;54783]Read the epic of Gilgamesh and and compare it to the story of Noah. Research about Western Asian fertility mother cults and compare that to Mary. Look at the pithy sayings in the Bible and compare it to Analects, Greek fables, and so forth. Its as easy as pie to see that Christianity is just another cult that had heavy influences from the mythology rampant at the time and arose in the right place at the right time.

I do not practice Yoga. :D[/QUOTE]

Ok never , as i have said , heard that christ did not exist. Not sure you are providing any proof , that Christ did not exist , but will look at what you suggested as I am unfamiliar with the above mentioned.

I wonder what drew you to a yoga forum then ?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54782]The denial of the biblical christ is not taught by any Yoga school, but it is arguments from theologians. They have found no evidence whatsoever for the biblical Christ ever existing and have found obvious historical inaccuracies in the bible. For example, the bible mentions how much Christ’s fame had spread in Judea and that the Roman emperor was himself aware of him. However, actual history has found there is no mention of any Christ, no historians of the time have any record of him. No evidence has been found for a town called Nazarath every existing. The only mention of Christ found, is centuries after his death, when a cult of Christ was forming. There were several of these and each claimed Christ said this, and Christ said that, and Christ did this, and Christ did that.

Some theologicans based on this claim that Christ did not actually exist but it is a myth assembled from other myths prevalent at the time. However, the general consensus is he probably did exist, but his actual life and what he taught is going to be diametrically different.[/QUOTE]

Thanks SD I was not suggesting it was taught by any yoga school it was more that I had not come across anything regarding the denial of his existence.

[QUOTE=charliedharma;54785]Ok never , as i have said , heard that christ did not exist. Not sure you are providing any proof , that Christ did not exist , but will look at what you suggested as I am unfamiliar with the above mentioned.

I wonder what drew you to a yoga forum then ?[/QUOTE]

I find it surprising you didn’t know anything about it. That Christ did not exist is something asserted by even the most famous scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, etc, from Bertrand Russel to Christopher Hitchens and beyond. Then again, you and I live in the West, in which Jesus’s existence is sacrosanct and taken for granted, and where hardly anyone one allots time to find the Truth (unusual considering the manner in which the West touts its traditions of Rationalism and Logic). The lack of historical evidence is where you might want to start.

For the same reason I post mostly in the religion forum. I had observed for a long time how misinformation and lies about Hinduism were being disseminated by the majority of the members on this forum and how Surya Deva alone had to fend of attacks directed against him. I arrived to help him and correct this problem.

Nietzsche I can find no reference to christopher Hitchens denying the existence of christos , which does not mean he didnt , just dont have reference , he attacked all Religions including Hinduism , he admittedly has a particular dislike for the Abrahmic Religions .
Bertrand Russel said he probably did not exist but this is not an outright denial.
elswhere there is a quote about Russell saying that christ was a good man but there were others that were better , hardly a denial of christs existence , this was a cursory look so as often , Im reliant on second hand information . The plot thickens.

[QUOTE=charliedharma;54793]Nietzsche I can find no reference to christopher Hitchens denying the existence of christos , which does not mean he didnt , just dont have reference , he attacked all Religions including Hinduism , he admittedly has a particular dislike for the Abrahmic Religions .
Bertrand Russel said he probably did not exist but this is not an outright denial.
elswhere there is a quote about Russell saying that christ was a good man but there were others that were better , hardly a denial of christs existence , this was a cursory look so as often , Im reliant on second hand information . The plot thickens.[/QUOTE]

Depends on how you view it.

In some of Russell’s books, you can see that he expresses great doubts about his existence. Then again, in his “History of Western philosophy,” (which I have at home) he expresses admiration for him.

Same story with Christopher Hitchens (and yes, I do know he is against all religions).

I personally find the typical person’s admiration for Christ laughable, considering the fact that many of his supposedly “wise” sayings have parallels in older cultures, fables, and myths.

Anyway, you are better of searching for yourself. My knowledge comes from history courses.

In my World History class for example, I distinctly remember my World history teacher (who is a recognized historian btw) giving us excerpts from the Epic of Gilgamesh and Noah/Ark stuff, and the similarities were as clear as the sky on a sunlit day. Some lines were even copied word for word. My teacher even gave a highly cynical and entertaining critique of Christianity, in which she succeeded in making us all see its derivative and unoriginal nature.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54630]The West has a lot of bad karma. It is going to pay a price for it sooner or later.[/QUOTE]

SD,

How is this statement of yours, which says basically the same as what I have suggested earlier to you about the bad karma of India, not insensitive and offensive to me as a Westerner?

So, if I understand you correctly per above statement, then the West can accrue bad karma and will pay for it sooner or later, but India couldn’t have accrued somewhere in her past some bad karmas and are paying for them?

India never did anything wrong. It never invaded any other country, it never exploited the countries it traded with, it never waged any crusades, it never had any inquistions, and it never burnt witches, it did not exterminate entire civilisations. Why then would it have bad karma?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54900]India never did anything wrong. It never invaded any other country, it never exploited the countries it traded with, it never waged any crusades, it never had any inquistions, and it never burnt witches, it did not exterminate entire civilisations. Why then would it have bad karma?[/QUOTE]

Christian answer:

Because its Hindu.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54900]India never did anything wrong. It never invaded any other country, it never exploited the countries it traded with, it never waged any crusades, it never had any inquistions, and it never burnt witches, it did not exterminate entire civilisations. Why then would it have bad karma?[/QUOTE]

Repressive caste system that subjugates some members of the society comes to mind. Oh right…the lowest castes WANT it that way :roll:

Wrong, there was no oppressive caste system in India prior to the reengineering of Indian society by the British. This is British propoganda, which you obviously are going to buy, because you hang onto everything the West says.

Show me evidence of an oppressive caste system in India prior to the British, or otherwise shut your mouth.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54909]Wrong, there was no oppressive caste system in India prior to the reengineering of Indian society by the British. This is British propoganda, which you obviously are going to buy, because you hang onto everything the West says.

Show me evidence of an oppressive caste system in India prior to the British, or otherwise shut your mouth.[/QUOTE]

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~epandit/page2.html

http://adaniel.tripod.com/historycaste.htm

MOUTH WIDE OPEN.

I had to laugh. Did you actually read the links you provided(most of which are based on the outdated and widely discredited Aryan invasion theory) Here let me help you:

First link:

The caste system in India can be described as an elaborately stratified social hierarchy distinguishing India’s social structure from any other nation. Its history is multifaceted and complex.
Caste is a term, which is used to specify a group of people having a specific social rank and dates back to 1200 BCE. The Indian term for caste is jati, and generally designates a group that can vary in size from a handful to many thousands. There are thousands of jatis each with its own rules and customs. The various jatis are traditionally arranged in hierarchical order and fit into one of the four basic varnas the (Sanskrit word for “colors”).
–The varna of Brahmans, commonly identified with priests and the learned class
–The varna of Kshatriyas, associated with rulers and warriors including property owners.
–The varna of Vaishyas, associated with commercial livelihoods (i.e. traders)
–The varna of Shudras, the servile laborers

It can be argued that the composers of the Vedas, especially those sections within the Vedas called the Brahmanas, were concerned with the interconnections that organized reality (Smith, 7). This way of looking at the varnas allows us to see how such a system can survive several millennia. It classifies people not only in terms of their different qualities but also with respect to their different privileges. Each class thus has a special role to play in society as well as a unique function: this structure is a means of creating and organizing an effective society.
The varna system is inter-linked with creation, lending itself a great deal of reverence and validity.
If space, time the congregation of the gods and goddesses, the natural world, scripture and ritual, and the human body itself- if all these realms bear classification according to varna, how could an organization of society be regarded as anything other than the way things should be? (Smith 59)

An important thing to note is that the Vedas do NOT mention a concept such as Untouchability. It is a part of the system that has been created by society itself.

Link 2:

A study conducted by the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology in 2009 (in collaboration with Harvard Medical School, Harvard School of Public Health and the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT) analyzed half a million genetic markers across the genomes of 132 individuals from 25 ethnic groups from 13 states in India across multiple caste groups. The study concludes, based on the impossibility of identifying any genetic indicators across caste lines, that castes in South Asia grew out of traditional tribal organizations during the formation of Indian society, and was not the product of any mythical Aryan Invasion and subjugation of Dravidian people.[8]

The caste system as we know today is not from the classical Hindu system. According to classical Hindu system, the society was divided into four “Varnas” (classes or categories), purely based on profession.

Brahmins – the clergy, teacher, religious authority
Kshatriya – the warriors, administrators, political authority
Vaisyas – the merchants, farmers, the business persons
Shudras – the servants, laborers
The Varna system was originally evolved for the classification of human duties in a healthy society. The system allowed free movement within the Varnas. So a Brahmin’s son can be a Khatriya or Vaisya or a shudra.Simillarly a shudra’s son can be a brahmin or a vaisya. The caste system practiced today is not mentioned anywhere in any of the Hindu scriptures.

The most ancient scriptures—the Shruti texts, or Vedas, place very little importance on the caste system, mentioning caste only sparingly and descriptively (i.e., not prescriptive). Indeed, the only verse in the Rigveda which mentions all four varnas is 10.90, the Purushasūkta. The other varnas, the Brahmā (i.e. Brahmins) and Rājanya (i.e. Kshatriyas) are mentioned separately in some other verses in the Rigveda (e.g. RV 10.80.1) and the other Vedas, and rarely in the Upanishads. Some—definitely including most Smriti texts—have interpreted these as prescribing the division of society in the four varnas. A hymn from the Rig Veda seems to indicate that one’s caste is not necessarily determined by that of one’s family:

Rig Veda 9.112.3
—I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother’s job is to grind the corn.
In the Vedic period, there also seems to no discrimination against the Shudras (which later became an ensemble of the so-called low-castes) on the issue of hearing the sacred words of the Vedas and fully participating in all religious rights, something which became totally banned in the later times.[9]

Later scriptures such as Bhagavad Gita and Manusmriti state that the four varnas are created by God. However, at the same time, the Gita says that one’s varna is to be understood from one’s personal qualities and one’s karma (work), not one’s birth. Some scholars believe that, in its initial period, the caste system was flexible and it was merit and job based. One could migrate from one caste to other caste by changing one’s profession. This view is supported by records of sages who became Brahmins. For example, the sage Vishwamitra belonged to a Kshatriya caste, and only later became recognized as a great Brahmin sage, indicating that his caste was not determined by birth. Similarly, Valmiki, once a low-caste robber, became a great sage. Veda Vyasa, another sage, was the son of a fisherwoman.[10] Vasishtha was a shudra and he became sage later.

Manusmriti, dated between 200 BCE and 100 AD, contains some laws that codified the caste system. The Manu Smriti belongs to a class of books that are geared towards ethics, morals, and social conduct - NOT religion. The content of these texts reflects the thinking of philosophers (like Manu) belonging to that age regarding issues pertaining to ethics, morals and social conduct. In this non-religious text (the Manu Smriti), the sage Manu explains that society is like the human body, where all body parts are required to function optimally in order to ensure the optimal function of society as a whole. He divided this metaphoric body into 4 main constituent parts: Head, Arms, Torso, Legs. The head of a body is required for thinking, planning, and decision making. Thus the metaphoric head of society (the Brahmins) were also responsible for these things. The arms of a body are responsible for protection of the body. Thus the arms of society were the Kshatriyas who were responsible for protection of the society. The torso of the body is responsible for consumption, production, and to hold society together as a whole. Thus, the Vaishya class was likened to the torso and constituted of the peasants, farmers, merchants, etc. Finally, the legs of a body are what carry the entire body altogether without which the body can make no movement or progress. These legs are the hardest physically working part of the body. The Shudra class of laborers was likened to the legs and was responsible for most physical labor jobs.

In this way, the entire body of society was complete and functional. No part of the body (society) was intended to be superior to another, just as all parts of the human body are equally important for optimal function. There was no hierarchy intended. This societal superiority/inferiority interpretation was a product of our flawed human nature which is to belittle those whom we believe are doing more menial work than we are. It was the tendency to think “Well, I’m a Brahman, and you’re just a Shudra so I’m better or higher than you are” that caused the belief that Brahmans are the highest and Shudras are the lowest. Again, an unintentional twisting of the original caste system which was nothing more than a system of equal division of social responsibilities amongst all citizens to begin with.

The view of the caste system as “static and unchanging” has been disputed by many scholars. For instance, sociologists such as Bernard Buber and Marriott McKim describe how the perception of the caste system as a static and textual stratification has given way to the perception of the caste system as a more processual, empirical and contextual stratification. Other sociologists such as Y.B Damle have applied theoretical models to explain mobility and flexibility in the caste system in India.[13] According to these scholars, groups of lower-caste individuals could seek to elevate the status of their caste by attempting to emulate the practices of higher castes.

Some scholars believe that the relative ranking of other castes was fluid or differed from one place to another prior to the arrival of the British.[14]

The distinctions, particularly between the Brahmans and the other castes, were in theory sharper, but in practice it now appears that social restrictions were not so rigid. Brahmans often lived off the land and founded dynasties. Most of the groups claiming Kshatriya status had only recently acquired it. The conscious reference to being Kshatriya, a characteristic among Rajputs, is a noticeable feature in post-Gupta politics. The fact that many of these dynasties were of obscure origin suggests some social mobility: a person of any caste, having once acquired political power, could also acquire a genealogy connecting him with the traditional lineages and conferring Kshatriya status. A number of new castes, such as the Kayasthas (scribes) and Khatris (traders), are mentioned in the sources of this period. According to the Brahmanic sources, they originated from intercaste marriages, but this is clearly an attempt at rationalizing their rank in the hierarchy. Many of these new castes played a major role in society. The hierarchy of castes did not have a uniform distribution throughout the country.[15]

Sociologist M. N. Srinivas has also debated the question of rigidity in Caste. In an ethnographic study of the Coorgs of Karnataka, he observed considerable flexibility and mobility in their caste hierarchies.[17][18] He asserts that the caste system is far from a rigid system in which the position of each component caste is fixed for all time. Movement has always been possible, and especially in the middle regions of the hierarchy. It was always possible for groups born into a lower caste to “rise to a higher position by adopting vegetarianism and teetotalism” i.e. adopt the customs of the higher castes. While theoretically “forbidden”, the process was not uncommon in practice. The concept of sanskritization, or the adoption of upper-caste norms by the lower castes, addressed the actual complexity and fluidity of caste relations.

Link 3: The Hindu scriptures can also be taken into consideration in this regard, which has some passages that can be interpreted to sanction the caste system. This also indicates that the caste system is not an essential part of the Hindu religion.

The Vedas or the most ancient shruti texts emphasise very less on the caste system, same is maintained in a hymn from the Rig Veda. Later scriptures like Bhagavad Gita and Manu Smriti propounds four Varnas, to be God’s creation. There is a general idea believed by scholars that may be in the initial phases the caste system was a bit flexible. Migration from one caste to the other was possible by switching jobs. Various passages from Manu Smriti and other scriptures emphasise that the caste system in India was originally non-hereditary. Therefore, through these facts one gets an impression how the caste system developed in the later stages into a firm intricate structure from a bendable one in the earlier Vedic age.

Ancient Hindu scriptures have the citations of four varnas or colour, which is the basic social class in the caste system in India. Bhagavad-Gita says that varnas are decided on the grounds of Guna which is the amalgamation of the five elements of ether, air, fire, water and earth, and Karma which is the concept of action.

Four varnas that are mentioned by other shastras are the Brahmins destined as teachers, scholars and priests, the Kshatriyas as kings and warriors, the Vaishyas were the trading class and the Shudras were agriculturists, service providers, and some artisan groups. These are further classified into jatis. Another group excluded from the main society was called Parjanya or Antyaja. This is the group of former untouchables who were considered either the lower section of Sudras or beyond the caste system altogether. Varna and jati are two different concepts. Varna actually unifies the Hindu sub communities or jatis into the four groups. Jati or community is an endogamous group where the members marry within themselves. There is a further division of the sub communities into exogamous groups in terms of gotras. There are exactly thousands of sub castes or jatis in India, often with particular ecological ranges and a governmental or corporate structure. Jatis are the way in which caste is embodied for most practical purposes.

Some scholars are of the view that the caste system in India was never so rigid until the British interfered in the caste related issues in India. They almost equated caste with the class system that exist in their country and in the process tampered with the long established caste system. Even among the Dalits there were the distinctions of high and low, and conflicts often took place. Caste system was seen as a pointer of social standing, intellectual ability and occupation. Hence the British wanted to include it in the census. Moreover, it becomes obvious that British notions of cultural purity were interwoven with these judgments of people based on caste when reactions to censuses are examined. The British policies of divide and rule were again a step towards breaking up of the unity in which caste played an important role. The listing of the population into rigid categories during the 10 year census led to the stiffening of caste identities.


Your links themselves say there was no exploitative caste system, but rather say that the caste system was a merit based system, which allowed social mobility and organized society into complex divisions of labour each with their own occupation.

Now let’s compare this to your feudal system. You only had two classes: serfs and peasents.
The peasents were illiterate, subsisted on food that was throw at them, and had very low life spans. They were treated like slaves by the serfs and made to work very hard in awful conditions day in and day out.

Now shut that mouth of yours :wink:

I’m done wasting time on your silliness. You are a one-man propagand machine with too much time on his hands.

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;54910]http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~epandit/page2.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Indian_caste_system
http://adaniel.tripod.com/historycaste.htm
http://asianhistory.about.com/od/india/p/indiancastesystem.htm
http://www.indianetzone.com/5/caste_system_india.htm
http://www.indianchild.com/caste_system_india.htm

MOUTH WIDE OPEN.

[/QUOTE]

Fail links are fail, all of which actually tell you the truth about the history of the caste system. Its something you would have noticed if you weren’t going on a copy-paste spree.

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;54915]You are the second [B]stupidest[/B] person I know. I’m done wasting time on your silliness.[/QUOTE]

I lol’d at bolded.

A hick will never be smarter than either SD or I. Ever. Our intellects surpass yours by light-years.

A 1995 study by Joanna L. Mountain et al. of Stanford University concluded that there was “[B]no clear separation into three genetically distinct groups along caste lines”,[/B] although “an [B]inferred[/B] tree revealed [B]some[/B] clustering according to caste affiliation”.[1]

A 2001 genetic study, led by Michael Bamshad of University of Utah, found that the genetic affinity of Indians to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more like Asians. The researchers believe that the Indo-European speakers entered India from the Northwest, admixing with or displacing the proto-Dravidian speakers. Subsequently they may have established a caste system and placed themselves primarily in higher castes. The study concludes that the Indian castes “are most likely to be of proto-Asian origin with West Eurasian admixture resulting in rank-related and sex-specific differences in the genetic affinities of castes to Asians and Europeans.”.[2] [B]Because the Indian samples for this study were taken from a single geographical area, it remains to be investigated whether its findings can be safely generalized.[3][/B] [Which they are not; anyone taking Statistics (know what that is? Its the study of DATA) would know this].

A 2002-03 study by T. Kivisild et al. concluded that the [B]“Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene.”[4] A 2006 genetic study by the National Institute of Biologicals in India, testing a sample of men from 32 tribal and 45 caste groups, concluded that the Indians have acquired very few genes from Indo-European speakers.[5][/B]

[B]The caste system as we know today is not from the classical Hindu system. According to classical Hindu system, the society was divided into four “Varnas” (classes or categories), purely based on profession.
Brahmins – the clergy, teacher, religious authority
Kshatriya – the warriors, administrators, political authority
Vaisyas – the merchants, farmers, the business persons
Shudras – the servants, laborers
The Varna system was originally evolved for the classification of human duties in a healthy society. The system allowed free movement within the Varnas. So a Brahmin’s son can be a Khatriya or Vaisya or a shudra.Simillarly a shudra’s son can be a brahmin or a vaisya. The caste system practiced today is not mentioned anywhere in any of the Hindu scriptures.
Although the Hindu scriptures contain some passages that can be interpreted to sanction the caste system, they also contain indications that the caste system is not an essential part of the Hindu religion, and both sides in the debate are able to find sections in scriptures that support their views.
The most ancient scriptures—the Shruti texts, or Vedas, place very little importance on the caste system, mentioning caste only sparingly and descriptively (i.e., not prescriptive). Indeed, the only verse in the Rigveda which mentions all four varnas is 10.90, the Purushasūkta. The other varnas, the Brahmā (i.e. Brahmins) and Rājanya (i.e. Kshatriyas) are mentioned separately in some other verses in the Rigveda (e.g. RV 10.80.1) and the other Vedas, and rarely in the Upanishads. Some—definitely including most Smriti texts—have interpreted these as prescribing the division of society in the four varnas. A hymn from the Rig Veda seems to indicate that one’s caste is not necessarily determined by that of one’s family:
Rig Veda 9.112.3
—I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother’s job is to grind the corn.
In the Vedic period, there also seems to no discrimination against the Shudras (which later became an ensemble of the so-called low-castes) on the issue of hearing the sacred words of the Vedas and fully participating in all religious rights, something which became totally banned in the later times.[9]
Later scriptures such as Bhagavad Gita and Manusmriti state that the four varnas are created by God. [B]However, at the same time, the Gita says that one’s varna is to be understood from one’s personal qualities and one’s karma (work), not one’s birth. Some scholars believe that, in its initial period, the caste system was flexible and it was merit and job based. One could migrate from one caste to other caste by changing one’s profession. This view is supported by records of sages who became Brahmins. For example, the sage Vishwamitra belonged to a Kshatriya caste, and only later became recognized as a great Brahmin sage, indicating that his caste was not determined by birth. Similarly, Valmiki, once a low-caste robber, became a great sage. Veda Vyasa, another sage, was the son of a fisherwoman.[10] Vasishtha was a shudra and he became sage later.[/B]

[U]And here is the meat:[/U]

Manusmriti, dated between 200 BCE and 100 AD, contains some laws that codified the caste system. The Manu Smriti belongs to a class of books that are geared towards ethics, morals, and social conduct - [B]NOT religion[/B]. The content of these texts reflects the thinking of philosophers (like Manu) belonging to that age regarding issues pertaining to ethics, morals and social conduct. In this non-religious text (the Manu Smriti), the sage Manu explains that society is like the human body, where all body parts are required to function optimally in order to ensure the optimal function of society as a whole. He divided this metaphoric body into 4 main constituent parts: Head, Arms, Torso, Legs. The head of a body is required for thinking, planning, and decision making. Thus the metaphoric head of society (the Brahmins) were also responsible for these things. The arms of a body are responsible for protection of the body. Thus the arms of society were the Kshatriyas who were responsible for protection of the society. The torso of the body is responsible for consumption, production, and to hold society together as a whole. Thus, the Vaishya class was likened to the torso and constituted of the peasants, farmers, merchants, etc. Finally, the legs of a body are what carry the entire body altogether without which the body can make no movement or progress. These legs are the hardest physically working part of the body. The Shudra class of laborers was likened to the legs and was responsible for most physical labor jobs.
[B]In this way, the entire body of society was complete and functional. No part of the body (society) was intended to be superior to another, just as all parts of the human body are equally important for optimal function. There was no hierarchy intended. This societal superiority/inferiority interpretation was a product of our flawed human nature which is to belittle those whom we believe are doing more menial work than we are. It was the tendency to think “Well, I’m a Brahman, and you’re just a Shudra so I’m better or higher than you are” that caused the belief that Brahmans are the highest and Shudras are the lowest. Again, an unintentional twisting of the original caste system which was nothing more than a system of equal division of social responsibilities amongst all citizens to begin with.[/B]

[B]Furthermore, the caste a person belongs to was traditionally inherited not genetically. However, it should be noted that these castes were not permanent and inherited only. [/B] Study of the Gita and other ancient texts allows one to understand that an individual’s “caste” is largely determined by his character and nature. [B]This is reflected in the Gita when Krishna explains to Arjun that the moment he ceases to perform the duties of a Kshatriya, he will no longer remain one.[/B] Also, in his book, “The Holy Science” (less commonly known as “Kaivalya Darshanam”), Swami Sri Yukteshwar Giri explains that an individual’s caste is largely determined by the nature of one’s Chitta (the deepest, purest conscious state of the unliberated soul). The nature of one’s Chitta (and essentially any desire other than that for unity with God) is expressed in the desires and tendencies of man. Therefore, one ignorant of spirituality and able to comprehend only the physical world would be in a dark state of mind prevalent in the Kali Yuga that would correspond with the Shudra caste. As one’s spiritual awareness grows lifetime upon lifetime, [B]his natural caste (as opposed to the caste assigned by default from birth) climbs “upward” (spiritually, not socially or materialistically - and no, this does not imply that Brahman’s are superior to anyone, just as a saint does not consider himself to be superior to anyone else, simply because he’s in the later stages of spiritual evolution)[/B]

The view of the caste system as “static and unchanging” has been disputed by many scholars. For instance, sociologists such as Bernard Buber and Marriott McKim describe how the perception of the caste system as a static and textual stratification has given way to the perception of the caste system as a more processual, empirical and contextual stratification. Other sociologists such as Y.B Damle have applied theoretical models to explain mobility and flexibility in the caste system in India.[13] According to these scholars, groups of lower-caste individuals could seek to elevate the status of their caste by attempting to emulate the practices of higher castes.
[B]Some scholars believe that the relative ranking of other castes was fluid or differed from one place to another prior to the arrival of the British.[14][/B]

I am tired of copy-pasting now. I only hope the hick can read.

[U]EDIT: Here is some more. Keep along hick![/U]

The caste system had been a fascination of the British since their arrival in India. C[B]oming from a society that was divided by class, the British attempted to equate the caste system to the class system.[/B] As late as 1937 Professor T. C. Hodson stated that: “Class and caste stand to each other in the relation of family to species. The general classification is by classes, the detailed one by castes. The former represents the external, the latter the internal view of the social organization.” The difficulty with definitions such as this is that class is based on political and economic factors, caste is not. In fairness to Professor Hodson, by the time of his writing, caste had taken on many of the characteristics that he ascribed to it and that his predecessors had ascribed to it but during the 19th century caste was not what the British believed it to be. It did not constitute a rigid description of the occupation and social level of a given group and it did not bear any real resemblance to the class system. However, this will be dealt with later in this essay. At present, the main concern is that the British saw caste as a way to deal with a huge population by breaking it down into discrete chunks with specific characteristics. Moreover, as will be seen later in this paper, it appears that the caste system extant in the late 19th and early 20th century has been altered as a result of British actions so that it increasingly took on the characteristics that were ascribed to by the British.
One of the main tools used in the British attempt to understand the Indian population was the census. Attempts were made as early as the beginning of the 19th century to estimate populations in various regions of the country but these, as earlier noted, were methodologically flawed and led to grossly erroneous conclusions. It was not until 1872 that a planned comprehensive census was attempted. This was done under the direction of Henry Beverely, Inspector General of Registration in Bengal. The primary purpose given for the taking of the census, that of governmental preparedness to deal with disaster situations, was both laudable and logical. However, the census went well beyond counting heads or even enquiring into sex ratios or general living conditions. Among the many questions were enquiries regarding nationality, race, tribe, religion and caste. Certainly none of these things were relevant to emergency measures responses by the government. Further, neither the notion of curiosity nor planned subterfuge on the part of the administration suffices to explain their inclusion in the census. On the question of race or nationality it could be argued that these figures were needed to allow analyses of the various areas in an attempt to predict internal unrest. However, there does not appear to have been any use made of the figures from that perspective. With regard to the information on religion and caste, the same claim could be made but once again there does not appear to have been any analyses done with the thought of internal disturbance in mind. Obviously there had to be some purpose to the gathering of this data since due to the size of both the population and the territory to be covered, extraneous questions would not have been included due to time factors. [B]Therefore, there must have been a reason of some sort for their inclusion. That reason was, quite simply, the British belief that caste was the key to understanding the people of India. Caste was seen as the essence of Indian society, the system through which it was possible to classify all of the various groups of indigenous people according to their ability, as reflected by caste, to be of service to the British.
Caste was seen as an indicator of occupation, social standing, and intellectual ability. It was, therefore necessary to include it in the census if the census was to serve the purpose of giving the government the information it needed in order to make optimum use of the people under its administration.[/B] [B]Moreover, it becomes obvious that British conceptions of racial purity were interwoven with these judgements of people based on caste when reactions to censuses are examined.[/B] Beverly concluded that a group of Muslims were in fact converted low caste Hindus. [B]This raised howls of protest from representatives of the group as late as 1895 since it was felt that this was a slander and a lie.H. H. Risely, Commissioner of the 1901 census, also showed British beliefs in an 1886 publication which stated that race sentiment, far from being:
a figment of the intolerant pride of the Brahman, rests upon a foundation of fact which scientific methods confirm, that it has shaped the intricate grouping of the caste system, and has preserved the Aryan type in comparative purity throughout Northern India.
Here is a prime example of the racial purity theories that had been developing throughout the 19th century. Here also is the plainest explanation for the inclusion of the questions on race, caste and religion being included with the censuses. Thus far this essay has dwelt almost entirely with British actions to the exclusion of any mention of Indian actions and reactions. This should not be taken to mean that the Indians were passive or without input into the process. Any change within a society requires the participation of all the groups if it is to have any lasting effect. The Indian people had a very profound effect on the formulation of the census and their analysis. However, Indian actions and reaction must be considered within the context of Indian history and Indian culture in the same way that British actions must be considered within British cultural context. For this reason, it has been necessary to postpone consideration of Indian reactions and contributions to the British activities until the next section of this essay which will then be followed by a more in depth examination of the development of British attitudes. Finally, the results of the combination of both Indian and British beliefs will be examined with a view to reaching a consensus on how they affected the compilation of and conclusions reached through the censuses.
The word caste is not a word that is indigenous to India. It originates in the Portuguese word casta which means race,breed, race or lineage. However, during the 19th century, the term caste increasingly took on the connotations of the word race. Thus, from the very beginning of western contact with the subcontinent European constructions have been imposed on Indian systems and institutions.[/B]
To fully appreciate the caste system one must step away from the definitions imposed by Europeans and look at the system as a whole, including the religious beliefs that are an integral part of it. To the British, viewing the caste system from the outside and on a very superficial level, it appeared to be a static system of social ordering that allowed the ruling class or Brahmins, to maintain their power over the other classes. What the British failed to realize was that Hindus existed in a different cosmological frame than did the British. The concern of the true Hindu was not his ranking economically within society but rather his ability to regenerate on a higher plane of existence during each successive life.

Nevermind Flexpenguin, he is old man of about 50, whose already going senile :wink: The old man did not even notice that the links he was posting were actually not supporting his points, but mine :smiley: Now, that I have embarrased him by exposing his foolishness, he’s reacting like any person who lacks the intellect to argue or stands refuted, with frustration. We got to be careful we don’t want the old man to get high blood pressure :smiley:

By the way did you see how I exposed his lies earlier where he denied that he had called India backwards and unenlightened culture and a culture of abuse. The man is dishonourable and a pathological liar, obviously something he has inherited from his culture.

Edit: Notice how he has quickly edited his comment calling me the stupidest person hes ever known.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;54918]Nevermind Flexpenguin, he is old man of about 50, whose already going senile :wink: The old man did not even notice that the links he was posting were actually not supporting his points, but mine :smiley: Now, that I have embarrased him by exposing his foolishness, he’s reacting like any person who lacks the intellect to argue or stands refuted, with frustration. We got to be careful we don’t want the old man to get high blood pressure :smiley:

By the way did you see how I exposed his lies earlier where he denied that he had called India backwards and unenlightened culture and a culture of abuse. The man is dishonourable and a pathological liar, obviously something he has inherited from his culture.

Edit: Notice how he has quickly edited his comment calling me the stupidest person hes ever known.[/QUOTE]

Yeah.

In America, there are a few words that describe insular and backwards people like him: “hicks” and “rednecks.”

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;54915]I’m done wasting time on your silliness. You are a one-man propagand machine with too much time on his hands.[/QUOTE]

Aww look the wittle beleaguered old man! It doesn’t even know itself!

[B]Original post: You are the second stupidest person I know. I’m done wasting time on your silliness.[/B]

So scared of the world!