Personal freedom. What is it?

Spirituality
#1

“Personal freedom is impossible without economic freedom. A working family, even one living in a modern city apartment, cannot be free, dependent as it is on an employer who determines one?s salary, on utility companies with the power to supply or withhold heat, water and electricity, on the availability of groceries and on the prices of food products and consumer services. The family is slave to all of these, and the children in such a family are born into a slave mentality.”

– Vladimir Megre, from Book 5 “Who Are We?” of the Ringing Cedar series of Books

Any comments?

#2

do you mean money

#3

[QUOTE=conniext;18811]do you mean money[/QUOTE]
No, I do’t mean money, I mean economic freedom.
Does one really need money to be economically independent?

#4

I have a few thoughts:
Working families on their own farms or ranches are more unbound than “…even one living in a modern city apartment, …”, so I wonder if the person who epitomizes the urban life for its freedom has really studied anything about the idea. That author certainly has not taken seriously most of the writings of the founders of the United States; Thomas Jefferson was (ironically enough) especially attentive to the freedom owning a farm brings to the owner. (the irony comes from all the slaves he kept. What an imperfect dork.)
Yes, working families in cities are tied to employers or unions who have more influence over their lives because of economics than they should.
To call that ‘slavery’ is to depreciate the sacrifice and pain endured by slaves. While it is very difficult or even irresponsible for a person in a tight economic situation to quit a job, this does not give the employer who is missing the employee the legal right to hunt the person down with guns and dogs. That’s what slavery is; it ought not be diminished.

Every family, slave or free (and I’ve conversed with the great-grandchildren of slaves, so I know better than I did five years ago) still can raise their children to spiritual freedom and freedom to work toward one’s own betterment. The union worker who then votes as the union instructs has given away too much; this is not logically required of economic dependence.

#5

[QUOTE=Techne;18815]I have a few thoughts:
Working families on their own farms or ranches are more unbound than “…even one living in a modern city apartment, …”, so I wonder if the person who epitomizes the urban life for its freedom has really studied anything about the idea. That author certainly has not taken seriously most of the writings of the founders of the United States; Thomas Jefferson was (ironically enough) especially attentive to the freedom owning a farm brings to the owner. (the irony comes from all the slaves he kept. What an imperfect dork.)
Yes, working families in cities are tied to employers or unions who have more influence over their lives because of economics than they should.
To call that ‘slavery’ is to depreciate the sacrifice and pain endured by slaves. While it is very difficult or even irresponsible for a person in a tight economic situation to quit a job, this does not give the employer who is missing the employee the legal right to hunt the person down with guns and dogs. That’s what slavery is; it ought not be diminished.

Every family, slave or free (and I’ve conversed with the great-grandchildren of slaves, so I know better than I did five years ago) still can raise their children to spiritual freedom and freedom to work toward one’s own betterment. The union worker who then votes as the union instructs has given away too much; this is not logically required of economic dependence.[/QUOTE]

OK lets talk about dependency or independency of a man. The qoute in the first post talking about dependency of every man in modern world. The question is, - is it posssible to live independent, self-sufficient life?
I am sure it is possible and here is one example:

#6

Well maybe he speaks of personal freedom in a superficial or external way.

I dont think he means freedom in the mind or in the heart, or spiritual freedom. Those are not dependant on money to happen.

#7

I speak of personal freedom in all senses.
To be free does not mean to be irresponsible.
Total freedom means total responsibility.

#8

Well I dont agree with the original quote. Personal freedom is not linked with financial freedom. Absolutely not.

First the guy doesnt define what personnal freedom is… What is personnal freedom, that is a large subject.

I can think of many mystics and religious people who where poor. If you look at monastic and ascetic life, they are other example of people with little money. What about the disciples of Christ, or the wondering monk disciples of Buddha? What about the samana with whom Buddha lived? I can think of many example from different traditions of great mystics who where poor.

What is spiritual freedom, we would have to ask the author about his definition. Spiritualy acomplished people face harship too, they suffer.
Look at the Dalai Lama who is in exile.

Also, I can think of many example of people who are rich and unhappy. Some would even say that the rich dont produce holy men and women. Some would say that only great harship can push humans to strive for inner freedom.

Spiritual realisation is not linked to your finances.

#9

The topic is about personal freedom, not spiritual one.
My definition for personal freedom: it is when you can do what you really like to do, what makes your heart happy most of your time.

#10

personal freedom is a state of being, one can be in jail and be free, one can have everything one desires and not be free
that is my belief
Neil

#11

[QUOTE=justwannabe;19103]personal freedom is a state of being, one can be in jail and be free, one can have everything one desires and not be free
that is my belief
Neil[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is a state of being, I agree. One may feel free and happy in jail but that person must be saint to feel like that. What about usual people’s personal freedom? How do they reach it?

#12

well what is freedom? Free from all teachings, free from money, free from ups and downs of life, free from having to worry about the state of the world? So only when we go back to the garden of eden are we free? that seems to be anastasias take on it. Trying to get life back to that can be a heavy burden to carry. Trying to be pure without blemish. Maybe in that state of being it is utter Joy, if so I hope to experience that. Ask Vladamir if he wants to sponser me the money to live in a place like that so I can try it out. Trying to follow the path anastasia recommends is not easy, however for some I believe it can be done.
my best to all
Brother Neil

#13

I gave my definition for personal freedom above, let’s look at it suggested way.
Of course it is not easy to live this way, but I don’t think it will be good for you if Vladimir sponsor you the money to live in Space of Love. If you want to help a needy it always better to give him a fishing rod, not a fish.
So through Vladimir you got your “fishing rod” and it is up to you what to do next.

#14

[QUOTE=justwannabe;19149]well what is freedom? Free from all teachings, free from money, free from ups and downs of life, free from having to worry about the state of the world? So only when we go back to the garden of eden are we free? that seems to be anastasias take on it. Trying to get life back to that can be a heavy burden to carry. Trying to be pure without blemish. Maybe in that state of being it is utter Joy, if so I hope to experience that. Ask Vladamir if he wants to sponser me the money to live in a place like that so I can try it out. Trying to follow the path anastasia recommends is not easy, however for some I believe it can be done.
my best to all
Brother Neil[/QUOTE]

I gave my definition for personal freedom above, let’s look at it suggested way.
Of course it is not easy to follow the path Anastasia recommends, but I don’t think it will be good for you if Vladimir sponsor you the money to live in Space of Love. If you want to help a needy it always better to give him a fishing rod, not a fish.
So through Vladimir you got your “fishing rod” along with its “user manual” and it is up to you what to do next. :slight_smile:

#15

“My definition for personal freedom: it is when you can do what you really like to do, what makes your heart happy most of your time.”

With this definition, a person’s finances may or may not enter in to it depending on what (s)he really likes to do. What is more important is that doing this thing that one really likes to do does not in itself reduce freedom. (which might happen directly, if self-directed abuse is involved, or indirectly, if the activity reduces one’s ability to provide things necessary to life.)

#16

[QUOTE=VestnikRA;19166]I gave my definition for personal freedom above, let’s look at it suggested way.
Of course it is not easy to follow the path Anastasia recommends, but I don’t think it will be good for you if Vladimir sponsor you the money to live in Space of Love. If you want to help a needy it always better to give him a fishing rod, not a fish.
So through Vladimir you got your “fishing rod” along with its “user manual” and it is up to you what to do next. :)[/QUOTE]

A lot of people will say the same thing and I dont agree. If my father has a business and decides to pass it on to me, should I feel guilty about that or must I start a business from the ground up? And if my father gives me the business and I run it into the ground, should he hold a grudge in his heart

If we are all one family in the world, is there something wrong with someone donating land to another person? I have paid a lot of money for golf lessons and I would give my knowledge away for free. Especially to someone who wants to learn. I have fed many homeless people asking nothing in return, not for them to change their ways, not for them to tell me why they are there, not for them to do a single thing. Why, because of compassion. You know what, because of the simple act of compassion with NO strings attached, some people do change. Some people resist change BECAUSE they resist the strings attached

God gave us this land, this world. And now someone “owns” it. So I should have to pay to live on it? Look at Vladamir, Anastasia gave him knowledge and now he has made a lot of money from it, this exchange between them was not equal in monetary value. I am not saying Vladamir is right or wrong. However Vladamirs part in this may be to use the money he gains from books to buy land. He is already doing many good deeds I would imagine
If he gives land with no strings attached is he not doing as God would? God gave us life and freedom of choice. God gave us this world, yet we now think we own it.

It was once said an “eye for an eye and we would all go blind” Now look at that quote and put it into terms for doing good deeds, does it not relate the same way? So since vladamir catches fish, he teaches us all how to fish? so who cooks it, who cleans it? Maybe Vladamir likes catching fish and enjoys that, while I like cleaning them and enjoy that, and Martha likes cooking. People play different roles and that is ok, can you breast feed?

Please understand I am not saying Vladamir or anastasia are bad or anything like that. Honestly nothing irritates me more then spiritual Guru who think they know it all. I know something they dont, they know something I dont, I have understandings they do not, they have understanding that I do not. Mixing those things is what makes us a whole.

also, So I have the book on how to do it, so that is all I need and should be able to do it on my own? Well there are things anastasia says to do that are not possible where I live. How can I Grow foods the way she recommends living in orlando, here is unclean water, unclean air, etc…? And if I cannot do this how can I get myself back to health? How can I get myself to the place of strength? That being said some interesting things have happened since I read her book, some things to assist me, I dont have to know why or how.

Does a father not give his child a fish while teaching him how to fish? So Anastia, Vladimir, Univers, God, etc… I ask for a fish while learning how to fish, put me in a space of land to make the transition and see if I can.
VestnikRA, if you knew what I have put myself through trying to find the connection to all that is, you may believe I have already paid for the land, or maybe not.

#17

[QUOTE=Techne;19168]“My definition for personal freedom: it is when you can do what you really like to do, what makes your heart happy most of your time.”

With this definition, a person’s finances may or may not enter in to it depending on what (s)he really likes to do. [/QUOTE]

A person’s finances may or may not enter… - this is right if a person lives alone. But what if he has a family? He must take care about his family and if one exclude extremal situation like going wild living in the forest, than IS THERE a way to support a family and to be personally free at the same time?
I believe THERE IS a way :slight_smile:

#18

[B]Justwannabe[/B], please don’t take me wrong. I am not against donation. Donation is a good thing by itself, both for the person who donates (if he gives from his heart) and for the person who receives it (if he really in needs) . :slight_smile: And this relates to donation of land as well.
BUT, if a person always rely for help from other people, expecting for others (the government or spiritually-developed rich people) to donate him land one day, he may wait forever.
I myself always rely on my own powers and efforts only. I believe that if I do not do it MYSELF than nobody will do it for me. If I get some help on this way I take it as a bonus. :slight_smile:

#19

Most students of yoga are mistakenly under the impression that freedom means “doing what I want whenever I want”. They do not, for the most part, understand the concept that to be completely free there must be discipline.

So you are not preaching to the choir:-)

Best of luck getting this one across.

#20

[QUOTE=InnerAthlete;19195]Most students of yoga are mistakenly under the impression that freedom means “doing what I want whenever I want”. They do not, for the most part, understand the concept that to be completely free there must be discipline.
[/QUOTE]

I agree. As I mentioned above one can get more freedom only along with responsibility. Total freedom means total responsibility.