One can see a lot of references to different souses that recite patanjali’s sutras.
“one can mistake pain for pleasure and pleasure for pain.”
I’m having a hard time to come up with an example. Any suggestions on how one can think about pain as a pleasure? (lets exclude perverts here:)
The pain I feel when the masseuse is breaking lose very tight muscles? That kind of pain that I can associate with pleasure, and truly enjoy the pain? Of course, if it gets too intense, I don’t enjoy it any more!
but that doesn’t sound like a mistaking. I wonder exactly what that does mean. Confusing.
[QUOTE=CityMonk;46018]One can see a lot of references to different souses that recite patanjali’s sutras.
“one can mistake pain for pleasure and pleasure for pain.”
I’m having a hard time to come up with an example. Any suggestions on how one can think about pain as a pleasure? (lets exclude perverts here:)[/QUOTE]
These are subtle, I think, but not really for us.
There are things in Hatha yoga, for example, where you may think that you’re seriously achieving a level a flexibility, very uncomfortable positions for the individual, their ego is gratified by both the position and the discomfort that their body is feeling. Meanwhile they would probably be much better served by easing off on their physical practice and being easier with their body.
Likewise, sitting & practicing in positions that one thinks is required, such as half lotus or full lotus, but are uncomfortable to the individual and keep the awareness at the surface and constantly on the body not to say having awareness of the body is bad, but forcing yourself to have constant awareness of discomfort isn’t the goal
Mistaking pleasure as pain… this could also apply to Hatha but I think when one experiences certain internal processes or stages of progress, shedding certain identification or attachments, then the ego lashes back and you think “I don’t like this, this is really uncomfortable, this hurts”. However the liberation is truly freeing and pleasurable.
These can be as subtle as the difference between apprehension and excitement or even the cup half full versus half empty. Even the ache for a greater experience can be uncomfortable or even seem painful and yet it is said that to be in some point of transcendent consciousness and to have a burning desire for more, this is the best.
in the Yoga Patanjali, it is said in Pada II Sutra 1 that “Austerity, study of the Self and surrender to the Supreme Being are the actions that stabilize Union.” This seems to me to be the core of what could be this kind of confusion. If one studies ethics and specifically John Stewart Mill’s Utilitarianism, there is a contrast between the pleasures of a pig and the pleasures of a man, the capacity for greater and more complex pleasures that at one point you may find boring or even uncomfortable but in the end, these actions yield greater pleasure over such a longer period of time.
(This is in addition to the effect where one’s “experience” during meditation seems to change but what is really happening, ultimately, is that nothing is changing but the meditators’ position or point of view with respect to Brahman, nothing more).
One could do yoga & meditation with a strict guru for a decade or one could do top-shelf drugs & have daily orgies for a decade. One may seem pleasurable and one may seem uncomfortable, but after a decade, when your guru says,“I have nothing else to teach you, now go share what you know with others”, bows low to you and shows you the door… what would your experience be? Pain, or pleasure?
After a decade of drug & sex “piggy” pleasures, what will your experience be when it ends? Pleasure or pain?
Pada II 14 & 15 comment on this more, pain or pleasure is largely from your point of view. To gain, one must lose. Freedom from the ego’s confinements comes through enjoyment and yet we know it can be uncomfortable.
I think the point here is that one can’t really trust Waking State opinions on what is pleasure or pain, so don’t get off the path or stop your practice. Stick with it regardless of what you might think your opinion of things is or whether you like what is happening or not because ultimately we know “this too shall pass”!
Pain is very close to pleasure if you ask me. I look at it like this, the body is full of pain, you just can’t feel it sometimes because the body is also full of natural pain killers.
An example might be stretching and yawning, it feels somewhat painful but also pleasurable. Or sneezing.
om shanti shanti shanteehee
A bowel movement!
Considering that pain and pleasure do not really exist… the question gets even more confusing…
[QUOTE=CityMonk;46198]Considering that pain and pleasure do not really exist… the question gets even more confusing…[/QUOTE]
Actually, from that point of view…there is no question. I am of course thinking this is a view akin to pain and pleasure being part of attachment and attachment causes suffering.
But with that bit of overly philosophical stuff out of the way I like what Joanna63 has said.
Also being a martial artist you can work and work on things that are rather painful but yet quite enjoyable when you get it right which I would think would be painful pleasure. But keeping in the martial arts world for a minute (silly Yulaw talking martial arts on a yoga site again) there is sparing and work on applications or stance training which is also enjoyable but will be painful which to me would be pleasurable pain.
Take that to a yoga posture and it may be painful but when it is done you feel so much better
Regardless… its all good
[QUOTE=CityMonk;46198]Considering that pain and pleasure do not really exist… the question gets even more confusing…[/QUOTE]
They exist until they don’t. This isn’t a “fake it til you make it” kind of thing. You have to be where you’re at & eat what’s on your plate.
[QUOTE=Yulaw;46249]Actually, from that point of view…there is no question. I am of course thinking this is a view akin to pain and pleasure being part of attachment and attachment causes suffering.
But with that bit of overly philosophical stuff out of the way I like what Joanna63 has said.
Also being a martial artist you can work and work on things that are rather painful but yet quite enjoyable when you get it right which I would think would be painful pleasure. But keeping in the martial arts world for a minute (silly Yulaw talking martial arts on a yoga site again) there is sparing and work on applications or stance training which is also enjoyable but will be painful which to me would be pleasurable pain.[/quote]
That’s exactly what I was talking about. You KNOW that discomfort during training is far outweighed by the benefit to your technique, ability etc
It takes someone seeing the long-term benefits to be able to look past surface discomfort, whether physical or mental.
why do pain or pleasure not exist? how would you even know you had a body/mind etc if you didn’t feel anything? pain, pleasure, existence is bliss. Or maybe it’s all just a dream.
[QUOTE=rechaka;46276]why do pain or pleasure not exist? how would you even know you had a body/mind etc if you didn’t feel anything? pain, pleasure, existence is bliss. Or maybe it’s all just a dream.[/QUOTE]
Rechaka I like your replies. Grudginingly I think Pratyahara (sense withdrawal) is the balance to pain and pleasure and that it “should not” exhist. Example: a distracted student comes in late and still hasn’t found her blanket and mat. My yoga teacher let her catch her breath, related to her situation and said but furtunately in yoga we learn about unattachment. And she encouraged the student to grab a studio mat, and then went on to a quick situation where she had to practice unattachment. The student was settled down in less than 5 minutes and we went on to our own… pain and pleasure
It should never be painful, but there does come a point to when you no longer feel the pain.
Pleasurable pain or painful pleasure?
Sex! 
A one night stand.
I love all the responses here! Bowel movement, sex, one night stand! To add to the eclectic mix…perhaps Sadomasochism? Pleasurable pain/painful pleasure.
I think we just need to know they exist and not place meaning to them. Pain and pleasure are very subjective. Thresholds are very different between individuals. Like Yulaw said, “Attachments cause suffering”.
Now i wonder indeed who are the perverts around here.
Let me see…Hahahah
[QUOTE=core789;46948]Now i wonder indeed who are the perverts around here.
Let me see…Hahahah[/QUOTE]
ha-ha
My dentist think that I’m the one, since I take dental work without anesthesia.
[QUOTE=CityMonk;46018]One can see a lot of references to different souses that recite patanjali’s sutras.
“one can mistake pain for pleasure and pleasure for pain.”
I’m having a hard time to come up with an example. Any suggestions on how one can think about pain as a pleasure? (lets exclude perverts here:)[/QUOTE]
Eating something that is in the moment so very pleasing, but later your upset because it made you fatty or gave you stank breath.
???
mayba
How about unanswered prayers… for that matter how about answered prayers:confused: