Great information has been written here by others…I love it! Master Patanjali…WOW!
Thanks Karen. I will definitely try that. I may try and find audio file to listen to pronunciation.
Has to be better than the chant I’m currently using: Oh-wah Tah-goo Sy-am repeated 
Phonetically…am-me ta-bar bu-dar…6 times as neg thoughts arise ok…(as Tommy Cooper said…“just like that” )
AMI Tabbha Buddha is exactly how its written in text
Ps I don’t think it matters if the pronunciation isn’t correct, its the pattern that matters…this is just an opinion, I’m not sure…??? mind you, maybe someone who knows the language would laugh at my phonetics on it…perhaps I’m saying something I shouldn’t!:eek::eek:
Question Flex…is this… Oh-wah Tah-goo Sy-am…the Chinese version of what we have been talking about and used for the same purpose then?
I saw it on an episode of the Odd Couple many years ago
How odd!
[QUOTE=kareng;73601]Great information has been written here by others…I love it! Master Patanjali…WOW![/QUOTE]
Indeed. I actually prefer the Yoga Sutras to western psychology. I should have said, I’m not sure CBT rises to the level of Patanjali.
Thanks for the advice, Gordon, with reference to The Yoga Sutras.
Surya, your references to the Yoga Sutras and information about CBT with logical disputing make a lot of sense. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer in such detail. This is the first I have heard about CBT, and The Yoga Sutras are still very new to me, so I will have to read it over and digest it, thank you.
Asuri, again, thanks for your continued encouragement. And Kareng, what you say about the mantra is interesting, I’ll look into that also, thanks.
How you think affects how you feel
How you feel affects how you behave
How you behave affects how you show up on the world
so yes, I believe positive thoughts and affirmations are helpful.
Surya, your references to the Yoga Sutras and information about CBT with logical disputing make a lot of sense. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer in such detail. This is the first I have heard about CBT, and The Yoga Sutras are still very new to me, so I will have to read it over and digest it, thank you.
Thanks. CBT, meaning Cognitive Behavioural Therapy was developed recently in psychotherapy when the founder Becks who was a Freudian psychoanalyst found that psychoanalysis was not very effective in treating his patients and it lacked structure and testabiliy thus it felt short of scientific standards. Alternatively, he found when working with his patients that the biggest problem was not their past, but their current ways of thinking. He found if the thinking could be changed, then their behaviour can be changed, and then their feeling. Since CBT has developed into a robust field of psychology and psychotherapy, with contributions from many psychologists. It is also the most rigorously tested theory and practice and clinical trials prove that it is highly effective.
The basic premise is that thinking patterns which cause the negative feelings and behaviours can be intercepted, thus we can catch them at the nascent stages before they cause the negative states. This is done using a range of disruption techniques, most commonly logical disputing(cognitive) behavioural disputing(behaviour) There are a range of techniques.
The basic theory of CBT is what Yoga is based on. According to Yoga, as any meditator will know, thoughts can be controlled, manipulated and dissolved. This is done by intercepting them at the nascant stages before they manifest. This is done in two ways in Yoga:
- Pratipaksha bhavana, or basically logical disputing them
- Dissolving them in deep meditation
It is the second approach that makes Yoga unique and better than CBT, because according to Yoga all thoughts are stored in seed form in the unconscious mind. If you can burn the seeds, then the seed will not germinate. Hence, by the practice of deep meditation when we can access any thought at the deepest unconscious level we can dissolve it. This is the premise that psychodynamic theory is based on. Thus Yoga combines the best of CBT with the best of psychodynamic psychology.
There is yet another aspect of Yoga which modern psychology does not cover, except perhaps to an extent in neurology, because it is based on a materialist paradigm. Yoga does not just address our emotional thoughts, but also our cognitive processes that enable us to have perception of reality. According to Yoga, our perception of reality is constructed by unconscious cognitive processes. Thus the very act of perception of anything is preceded by many unconscious processes. It is possible to catch even these unconscious cognitive processes though meditation. Thus you can access reality before it is filtered by our cognitive processes.
What is reality before it is filtered by our unconscious processes? Yoga answers: a mind field(chitta) It is not physical matter, there is no such thing as physical matter in fact, what is physical matter is the result of waves(vrittis) taking place in the mind field. This produces not only the illusion of matter, but also the illusion of subjective-objectivity. The yogi is able to access this fundamental level of reality of the mind-field through meditation and gains the power to manipulate reality as they wish. Hence why Yoga psychology deals with Siddhis(paranormal powers) which Western psychology shys away from because it would mean abandoning its materialist paradigm.
Just a quick point on why Yoga gets compared to quantum physics, something that some people hate because quantum physics is always being used by new age theorists to back up new age theories and new age merchandise like the Secret and Law of Attraction. The reason Yoga gets compared to quantum physics is not out of wishful thinking, but the fact that Yoga contains very similar concepts to those in quantum physics. This becomes very apparent to one who has studied both Yoga and quantum physics. In the same way it becomes apparent Yoga contains similar concepts to CBT and other psychological approaches if one studies psychology.
The basic idea in quantum physics is the idea that material reality exists in two states: Wave reality and particle reality, but it is either one or the other. Wave reality is called the quantum reality and it is very difficult to define, because it’s not an actual thing, and it is all pervading: it is everywhere at once. In quantum physics this is called superpositioning. So in order to represent it physicists use a mathematical expression called a wavefunction
Now we know in physics that matter(all matter) constantly changes from from wave to particle, but we do not understand why that happens. If matter is in a wavestate, then something is needed to collapse it into a particle. This is known as a the collapse of the wavefunction Actual experiments have shown that this collapse takes place in the presence of an observer - known as the observer effect. This idea is not liked a lot by most physicists because they are materialists, because it suggests that consciousness is something which precedes matter. If there is no observer there would be no material reality. So they fight against it by suggesting an alternative theory: self-collapse by hidden variables, what is known as hidden variable theory The problem with this theory is that it is logically absurd: how can matter collapse itself, for a collapse to take place there has to be something is collapsed and a collapser. So how can the collapsed be the collapser? Despite its absurdity, materialists swear by it. All experimental tests done so far have disproven hidden variable theory and proven observer theory.
Thus we can surmize from the above three things
- All matter exists in a quantum wave state originally
- The quantum wave state needs to be collapsed before we can perceive a physical reality
- A conscious observer is the cause of this collapse
In Yoga we have exactly the same theory. Matter exists in two states: mind-field reality as waves in the mind field and as perceptual reality, and it either one or the other. Note in quantum physics we have no definition for what quantum is so we represent it using mathematics, in Yoga it is represented as as vibrations within the mind-field, what is known as guna activity literally meaning string activity(don’t blame me if I think this is similar to string theory) This mind-field reality is all pervading, it is everywhere at once and contains everything at once.(Quantum physics term: superpositioned)
According to Yoga all of reality is originally this mind-field wave reality. This mind-field wave reality collapses into our perceptual reality when there is a conscious observer present.
Thus according to Yoga all of perceptual reality can be modelled as an interaction between conscious observer and matter like this: O-M. This collapses reality into subjective and objective, which in Yoga is known as the ahamkara or ego. From this ego proceeds subjective evolution and objective evolution. But remember this is all happening in the mind according to Yoga. Not a particular mind - but universal mind. My mind and your mind is just a particular instance of universal mind.
All of this is unconscious to us because we perceive reality at the very last stages of its evolution. So we only see a material and physical world, we cannot perceive any of the stages it exists in prior: as atoms for instance(tanmatras) or as complex cognitive processes and ultimately as vibrations of the mind-field. However, through the process of Yoga practice, basically meditation we can start to perceive even these unconscious stages. Thus Yoga not will allow you to tap into your own particular mind, but into the universal mind of the universe. Allowing you information of and the ability to manipulate anything in existence.
In short this is the reason why Yoga gets compared to quantum physics. It is effectively saying exactly the same thing that quantum physicists are discovering today. Why is this important to know? It is important because it proves Yoga is an actual science, not just a philosophy, a belief system or wishful thinking. As it is actual science everything Yoga actually predicts and says about reality is factual. Knowing this you can practice Yoga with full conviction and confidence, and even know what to expect as your practice develops.
Surya Deva,
While modern psychology was born out of a need to address brain’s/mind’s abnormalities that could not be explained by neurology alone; yoga addresses much larger vision of truth that is hidden because of brain/mind. Psychology looks at brain/ mind as its ultimate target, and yoga tackles it as the main hurdle to be able to go beyond. In psychology, brain the organ is somewhat understood, but mind is a mystery and most psychological theories prefer to treat the two as a black-box and work around it. Yoga on the other hand uses the gross-subtle hierarchy and cause & effect relationship to explain the process of cognition and defines the role of mind and thoughts precisely.
Psychology is constrained by its marriage to the material paradigm, but is further restricted by its reliance on a subjective divide between ‘good/positive’ thoughts vs negative. Moreover the ‘badness’ is not in any absolute sense but is relative because “thought is what it does” in terms of behavior, and its parameters change from people to people and place to place. Yoga of yoga sutra does not accord any qualitative identity to thoughts. In fact, such a qualitative cognition is considered an influence of guna which steals the truth away from recognition. In yoga, in the state of meditation, not only all thoughts are dissolved but their originator is disabled.
Thoughts too are in two forms: verbalized and unmanifest. The nebulous unmanifest thought is not yet on the radar of psychology. But that is what exists in the seed form and is more like desires and natural instincts.
Pratipaksha bhavana taken as ‘logical disputing’ goes against the very aim of yoga, i.e. restraining mind modifications. It is like saying, restrain the mind modifications caused by negative thoughts by creating modifications through dispute, howsoever loical. More elegant translation that is consistent with yoga sutra theme is that ‘the very understanding of how thoughts are formed when the seeds of desire fruition, acts against the negative thoughts and they wither away, to eventually stop occurring altogether.’ The word here is bhavana, derrived from bhava, mind’s intrinsic state. (For implying a logical dispute the word could have been ‘vichara’ or ‘tarka’.)
The greatest irony I have found that if we compare the so-called Vedic sciences like Sanskrit Grammar, Prosody, Ayurveda and indeed Yoga itself, they are actually far more advanced and sophisticated that their modern Western counterparts: Linguistics and computer theory, stylistics, medicine and psychology. How can we tell they are advanced? Well experts in these modern fields themselves say it and can appreciate it. All modern fields are starting to develop similar concepts to their ancient Vedic counterparts. Psychology is no different, the study of psychology shows that psychology has developed in waves. The first wave was the Freudian and Jungian psychoanalyical view; the second wave was the Behavioural mechanic view and the third wave was the humanist and existential view. Today, the fourth wave of psychology is the transpersonal view. In other words psychology is now going beyond the previous preoccupation with the mind and the brain, and is now looking more at the transpersonal dimensions of psychology like consciousness studies, religious and mystical experiences, parapsychology. Transpersonal psychology is obvious a lot more closer to Yoga than any previous psychological approach, and even heavily bases its research on Yoga. Thus it seems modern Western psychology is now starting to catch up to Yoga. Just like every other Western scientific field is catching up to its ancient Vedic counterpart(Linguistics to Sanskrit)
Allow me to diverge and muse a little but how is it that the so-called Vedic sciences are so much more advanced than their counter parts? It seems very odd that we would be more advanced and sophisticated 5000 years ago than we are in the 21st century. Really makes you think!
Coming back to topic.
I think the problem with your thinking is you are focussing on absolute reality rather than our relative, dual and practical reality. On this point I am more in agreement with Asuri, that Patanjali does indeed say that ultimately we must cease/dissolve every kind of thought and activity, thereby completely collapse the subjective-objective duality to attain the ultimate non-dual goal of Yoga, but in the early stages of Yoga we must make use of dualistic thinking and tools, because we cannot help but do that because we are approaching reality from a dualistic point of view.
In Yoga we do indeed make distinctions between good and bad thoughts, good and bad actions, and how we define their goodness or badness is based on whether they advance us or regress us in our practice(punya or paap) This is because the reality we are living in is governed by three major forces and qualities: sattva is lightness and buoyancy, brilliance, virtue and illumination; tamas is the opposite darkness and heaviness, inertia, torpidity. In between we have rajas which has qualities of both: active, energetic, passion, desire. Now ask me which is better for your health to be in the mode of tamas or the mode of sattva? Obviously in the mode of sattva. This is why in Yoga we have such thing as sattvic diets, sattvic thinking and sattvic lifestyle. The more sattvic our mind the greater our clarity and lucidity, the more virtuous our actions, the healthier our body and beingness in general.
The tools in Yoga we use are all designed to bring one towards a sattvic state. In the yamas we choose to practice non-violence as opposed to violence, because while violence will bring us closer to tamas, non-violence will bring us closer to sattva. In Niyamas we choose to practice lifestyle observances like purity as opposed to impurity, because while impurity will bring us closer to tamas, purity will bring us closer to sattva. In Asanas we practice postures which induce the most comfort, relaxation and flexbility, because they produce a sattvic body, on the other hand discomfort and inflexibility produces a tamasic body. In like manner all the tools in Yoga, work together to create a sattvic beingness.
When one has reached the level of sattvic beingness they are ready for the final goal of Nirvikalpa Samadhi and total liberation. This is where Vedanta takes over. When the sattvic mind hears, “Thou art that” it produces the final liberation. The sattvic mind finally realizes its identity with Brahman. If a tamasic or rajasic mind is told, “Thou art that” it does nothing. In fact a tamasic mind will simply interpret them as “I am already enlightened, I do not need to do anything, I do not need t make any distinctions between good and bad/virtue and vice” This is the biggest problem with Neo-Vedanta or non-duality teachings we encounter today: they promote inertia in the name of enlightenment. The truth is, in the beginning we must make loads of effort to finally reach that stage of true effortlessness. We must work hard on controlling our thoughts, feelings and behaviours, purifying the mind and body, self-study, surrendering our ego, making our body flexible, supple and relaxed, harmonizing our breath and speech, and concentrating our mind. If one is not prepared to do this, they will get nowhere in the end. They may repeat the affirmation, “I am infinite consciousness” infinite times, and still they not will get anywhere. Yoga is the only way they will be able to get out of their rut.
Surya Deva,
The Benefits of Frequent Positive Affect: Does Happiness Lead to Success?
Lyubomirsky, Sonja; King, Laura; Diener, Ed
Psychological Bulletin, Vol 131(6), Nov 2005, 803-855. doi: 10.1037/0033-2909.131.6.803
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;73491]I am personally skeptical of this claim that positive thinkers are healthier, happier, successful than negative thinkers, and would like to to see clinical and peer reviewed studies that supports this conclusion.
[/QUOTE]
It seems that there is not much doubt about it. Here are some more:
The How of Happiness: A Scientific Approach To Getting The Life You Want; Coaching: An International Journal of Theory, Research and Practice; Volume 1, Issue 1, 2008
“Thinking positive” as a stress buffer: The role of positive automatic cognitions in depression and happiness.
Lightsey, Owen Richard
Journal of Counseling Psychology, Vol 41(3), Jul 1994, 325-334. doi: 10.1037/0022-0167.41.3.325
A program to increase happiness: Further studies.
Fordyce, Michael W.
Journal of Counseling Psychology, Vol 30(4), Oct 1983, 483-498. doi: 10.1037/0022-0167.30.4.483
Positive thinking is a mental attitude that admits into the mind thoughts, words and images that are conductive to growth, expansion and success. It is a mental attitude that expects good and favorable results.
[QUOTE=fioricetultram;73646]Positive thinking is a mental attitude that admits into the mind thoughts, words and images that are conductive to growth, expansion and success. It is a mental attitude that expects good and favorable results.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately this is based on likes and dislikes of the individual mind and since all 7 billion of us have different likes and dislikes how could everyone agree as to what’s positive?
[QUOTE=mukimuki;73640]It seems that there is not much doubt about it. Here are some more:
The How of Happiness: A Scientific Approach To Getting The Life You Want; Coaching: An International Journal of Theory, Research and Practice; Volume 1, Issue 1, 2008
“Thinking positive” as a stress buffer: The role of positive automatic cognitions in depression and happiness.
Lightsey, Owen Richard
Journal of Counseling Psychology, Vol 41(3), Jul 1994, 325-334. doi: 10.1037/0022-0167.41.3.325
A program to increase happiness: Further studies.
Fordyce, Michael W.
Journal of Counseling Psychology, Vol 30(4), Oct 1983, 483-498. doi: 10.1037/0022-0167.30.4.483[/QUOTE]
Thanks, it is not clear from the article names that they are all about positive thinking. In any case there probably is some benefit in thinking positively as long as you believe in the positive statements you tell yourself, but I still think you need to be realistic with your statements. Telling yourself something which is not true, will eventually face a reality check. Like an ugly 16 stone woman telling herself “I look good” or an homeless man telling himself, “I am a success” or a depressive telling themselves, “I am fine and dandy, me”
Ooow Surya I must come back to this and give you a proper ticking off !!! tactless…cringe…cooking food!
Let the food burn!..will you please.stop mentioning these 15 stone ugly women! someone might be that and reading this they might be in tears now when they were not in tears before! You may have just caused depression for many after reading this! Stop it stop it stop it…bad bad tactless surya?
It is positively negative…:rolleyes::rolleyes:
How about this…if one is thinking one is something that one is clearly not, it might be wiser to accept one is not what one thinks one is!..there you go…much nicer hey?