Regulating the Spiritual field

[QUOTE=SCMT;74362]I am not taking a stand here either way but that statement right there is more opinion than fact. Do you at least see that?[/QUOTE]

I mean come on all the rubbish you read on chakras, astral planes, ascended masters, illumanti, reiki, ascension, orgone energy, law of attraction, spiritual force fields, channeling, mediums(like in the article I cited using vedic fire sacrifices to generate anti-nuclear spiritual force fields) DNA activation, Atlantis and the gaziilion cults that are popping up every year, is that not proof enough the spiritual field is full of a lot of rubbish.

We need to clean up the rubbish and stop it from piling up.

Surya,

“This is basically religion and has got nothing to do with scientific spirituality.”

The purpose of my statement was to say that a skillful means towards one’s enlightenment does not necessarily have to be “scientific” in it’s approach. There is certainly a scientific dimension to the inner sciences, and my approach is itself scientific, but you will find that the more you try to create a fixed structure of any kind out of “spirituality” - is the more and more limitations you impose upon it. What is seen as “scientific” is relative to the limitations of one’s present knowledge. That is the trap that modern science has fallen into - that they became too comfortable with fixed ideas for too long, that when something new was discovered which totally shattered their old ways of understanding, they were forced to change their views. This has happened again and again in science. You may have certain limited knowledge, but if you start clinging to your knowledge, you become dogmatic. That is why I had said that unless one has tremendous awareness, this is almost certain to happen if you try to organize any group who will function as a kind of authority as to what should and should not be accepted as “scientific”.

“Thus it has got no place for anything mystical, occult or religious.”

Not religious, but it is certainly mysticism. Mysticism just refers to any approach towards coming to a direct experience of one’s original. Even Zen, which is not so much focused on the intellect, which is very grounded and down to earth - can be called a path of mysticism. The occult too, has a scientific dimension - though it is difficult to tell the difference in so called “occultism” between what is science and what is simply superstition. The only way to be able to tell one from the other is to become deeply involved in those processes - and yoga, particularly the traditions of tantra yoga, have thoroughly explored the occult. “Occult” just means those traditions which are consciously awakening the siddhis and using the siddhis for various different purposes - whether towards one’s enlightenment or more “mundane” purposes. But I agree it is better to leave out the occult as there are already far too many misunderstandings about what “occult” is.

"What we can regulate among spiritual teachers in an SRO is ethical conduct, to prevent the formation of cults. "

The Western world is so neurotic and fanatic, that just about anything which does not fit into it’s social standards can be considered a “cult” - though organized religions, political parties, nations, these are all cults. If the same attitude existed in India - by now almost every tradition would have been condemned as a “cult”. Because nowhere on the face of the planet has the exploration of man’s inner being been so deeply investigated as it has happened in India. India has channeled all of it’s efforts, almost exhausted all of it’s efforts, in the work of the transformation of consciousness. They have explored almost every possibility one can imagine. According to Western standards - what Jesus was doing was certainly creating a “cult”. What Gautama Buddha was doing was also creating a “cult”. Both were teaching things which were against what was commonly accepted amongst traditions, and because of this, both were condemned. Buddhism and Jainism do not accept the authority of the Vedas - those who are orthodox Hindus certainly see them as “cults”. The tantric traditions - which have also not always accepted the authority of the Vedas, which were tremendously radical and revolutionary in their approach - can also be seen as “cults”. Especially when some traditions have been doing things which otherwise have always been traditionally seen as forbidden and immoral - such as using sex as a tool towards one’s enlightenment, the consumption of meat, and so on. Tantra has seen that even those things which are ordinarily condemned - if you approach them with a certain awareness, with a meditative consciousness, they too can be useful to one’s enlightenment. And rather than condemning the ways of the body - Tantra has like no other tradition - seen the body as helpful to one’s awakening rather than something that needs to be condemned and repressed.

Just about anything which is too different from what is commonly accepted, and which you dislike, can be called a “cult”.

The problem is not “cults”. It is simply that there have been people who have been exploiting others out of their own greed, who have been deceiving others - simply because they themselves are still in a deep sleep. To me - ignorance, whether it happens in a “cult” or not, is the same.

ah! i understand your meaning surya. At least i believe so. correct me if im wrong.

By regulation, you suggest their needs to be scientific understanding.
For even the bhakti’s with their radical ways, their is a scientific understanding.

You are talking about, striving to bring back the scientific understand of the arts?
For all aspects, and all spiritual fields, can be scientifically understood. Even bhakti.
The chakras were never about organs or glands, they were part of a technique. they were focal points.

Not all of the things you mention are rubbish. i do agree in needing to clean it up.
truth easily becomes falsehood by the mis use of one word. The spiritual information of this day, is rotting away.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;74394]I mean come on all the rubbish you read on chakras, astral planes, ascended masters, illumanti, reiki, ascension, orgone energy, law of attraction, spiritual force fields, channeling, mediums(like in the article I cited using vedic fire sacrifices to generate anti-nuclear spiritual force fields) DNA activation, Atlantis and the gaziilion cults that are popping up every year, is that not proof enough the spiritual field is full of a lot of rubbish.

We need to clean up the rubbish and stop it from piling up.[/QUOTE]

Again, you are stating opinion but this time you are taking the shotgun approach and addinga few things that some would not even lump into spitituality also based on opinion

The balance is in creation through destruction. and in destruction you shall creat.
for as they say. test everything with fire, and that which does not burn, is the truth.

try to break everything down, untill it scientifically cannot be broken down anymore. the problem with todays scientific community. is they have stopped using this process, and they even fear it!!!
The aghori embraces reality, for spirituality and reality are one in the same! he breaks down his habits and creats new ones just to break them down again. constantly throwing everything into the fire " what is the fire would be a scientific question"
is it just the catabolic process of fire?
earth is consumed by fire, fire is consumed by light. fire is made through the energy released by substance, light is made through the destruction of fire. op! more to come later.

[QUOTE=SCMT;74402]Again, you are stating opinion but this time you are taking the shotgun approach and addinga few things that some would not even lump into spitituality also based on opinion[/QUOTE]

It is not opinion, it IS rubbish. I will have to strongly question your intelligence if you even suggest in the slightest, that for instance the article of using fire sacrifices to develop spiritual shields against anti-nuclear radiation is not rubbish.

You obviously subscribe to some of this stuff I have clearly marked as rubbish.

The purpose of my statement was to say that a skillful means towards one’s enlightenment does not necessarily have to be “scientific” in it’s approach. There is certainly a scientific dimension to the inner sciences, and my approach is itself scientific, but you will find that the more you try to create a fixed structure of any kind out of “spirituality” - is the more and more limitations you impose upon it. What is seen as “scientific” is relative to the limitations of one’s present knowledge. That is the trap that modern science has fallen into - that they became too comfortable with fixed ideas for too long, that when something new was discovered which totally shattered their old ways of understanding, they were forced to change their views. This has happened again and again in science. You may have certain limited knowledge, but if you start clinging to your knowledge, you become dogmatic. That is why I had said that unless one has tremendous awareness, this is almost certain to happen if you try to organize any group who will function as a kind of authority as to what should and should not be accepted as “scientific”.

Science is an evidence based system. It is not fixed or static, but it is dynamic and evolves. As we gather more and more evidence, we refine our theories and understanding about reality. It is because of this that science can never make any absolute statements on the nature of reality, because there is always the possibility of new discoveries which can change our worldview dramatically.

Simply put, science is about our observable and measurable universe, and draws inferences from observations. The current theories and understanding of science is based on everything that is observable and measurable today, and whatever statements science makes about our observable world are valid. Science todays deals with macro cosmic phenomena like black holes, nebulas, stars to the microscopic electrons, subatomic particles, quantum forces. The current theories of science explain every phenomena that is observable and are the best explanations for what we already know.
These theories are rigorously tested and refined to the accuracy of being able to give predictions of phenomena with an accuracy of one in a trillionth.

Obviously, what we know so far is not wrong, but is not the complete picture either. Science is not a perfect system of knowledge and our understanding still has a long way to go, but there is absolutely no doubt that science is the best system of knowledge we have today. It easily blows every previous means of knowledge we had philosophical speculation and religion. I often hear irrational people exaggerate the imperfections of science, and then conclude that science is just another opinion, guessing or dogma like a religion. These people are quite frankly idiots, if science was just another opinion, guess work or dogma, then we would not have nuclear bombs, space satellites and microchips. Religion or philosophy could not give us these things, because they were inadequate systems of knowledge. Science is our best ever attempt at gathering knowledge about reality.

Spirituality is the latest field that has come under the domain of science, and already we have made huge leaps in our understanding of the spiritual sciences. We will make dramatic progress in the 21st century in research on spirituality, understanding consciousness better, the mechanisms by which mind and matter interact and the structure of reality. We are already far ahead of our ancients in our knowledge in every field. We have learned all we can from the ancients - it is time to progress.

Not religious, but it is certainly mysticism. Mysticism just refers to any approach towards coming to a direct experience of one’s original. Even Zen, which is not so much focused on the intellect, which is very grounded and down to earth - can be called a path of mysticism.

Mysticism obviously means communion with god, higher power and the universe, such as in Vedanta one communes with Brahman through contemplation, meditation and worship, or in Sufism where the Sufi mystics attempt to obliterate the ego to unite with god.
Although this far more closer to spirituality, it still has an element or naivity about it, in that it strongly interprets the ultimate reality in emotional language and through human-centric view and attitude and romanticizes the whole thing.

Scientific spirituality does no such thing, it acknowledges that there is an unknown and absolute substance of reality which permeates everything and which is a supreme power and organizing force that maintains the entire universe. It is also acknowledges that we can tap into this great power. However, it does not worship it, as much as it does not worship gravity. We personalize this power and start to give it human attributes and involve it in our human affairs. One day science may understand power too.

The occult too, has a scientific dimension - though it is difficult to tell the difference in so called “occultism” between what is science and what is simply superstition. The only way to be able to tell one from the other is to become deeply involved in those processes - and yoga, particularly the traditions of tantra yoga, have thoroughly explored the occult.

Tantra is basically mythologized Yoga. It is Yoga + Vedanta + Puranas. Samkhya-Yoga on the other hand is scientific Yoga, it has no place or gods and goddesses, rituals, spells, sacrifices. Likewise, modern science has no place for Tantra.

"What we can regulate among spiritual teachers in an SRO is ethical conduct, to prevent the formation of cults. "

If the same attitude existed in India - by now almost every tradition would have been condemned as a “cult”. Because nowhere on the face of the planet has the exploration of man’s inner being been so deeply investigated as it has happened in India. India has channeled all of it’s efforts, almost exhausted all of it’s efforts, in the work of the transformation of consciousness. They have explored almost every possibility one can imagine. According to Western standards - what Jesus was doing was certainly creating a “cult”. What Gautama Buddha was doing was also creating a “cult”. Both were teaching things which were against what was commonly accepted amongst traditions, and because of this, both were condemned. Buddhism and Jainism do not accept the authority of the Vedas - those who are orthodox Hindus certainly see them as “cults”. The tantric traditions - which have also not always accepted the authority of the Vedas, which were tremendously radical and revolutionary in their approach - can also be seen as “cults”. Especially when some traditions have been doing things which otherwise have always been traditionally seen as forbidden and immoral - such as using sex as a tool towards one’s enlightenment, the consumption of meat, and so on. Tantra has seen that even those things which are ordinarily condemned - if you approach them with a certain awareness, with a meditative consciousness, they too can be useful to one’s enlightenment. And rather than condemning the ways of the body - Tantra has like no other tradition - seen the body as helpful to one’s awakening rather than something that needs to be condemned and repressed.

Just about anything which is too different from what is commonly accepted, and which you dislike, can be called a “cult”.[/quote]

I absolutely agree, nowhere else in the world has the study of spirituality been so concentrated as it has been in India. Modern spirituality is heavily indebted to India. But India is no longer relevant and it is a dying civilization. We have learned all we can from India in the 20th century, it is time no move and make progress. There are many things we know today that the ancients masters did not know, such as steady state physics, electronics. We must stop living in the past - and march ahead into the future. There is nothing more we can learn from India.

“Science is an evidence based system. It is not fixed or static, but it is dynamic and evolves”

The problem lies not in science, but in the scientists.

“but there is absolutely no doubt that science is the best system of knowledge we have today.”

It is nothing recent. The scientific attitude has it’s roots not in modern science, but in the inner process of the expansion of consciousness.

"There is nothing more we can learn from India. "

There is much that the East can learn from the West, and there is much that the West can learn from the East. One has emphasized the outer, the other has emphasized the inner.

“But India is no longer relevant and it is a dying civilization”

The inner sciences are not Indian anymore than general relativity is Jewish, or electricity is Christian. Science is simply science, and Truth is simply Truth - it is neither Eastern nor Western. As far as the discoveries that happened to happen in the East - the West is still lagging far behind.

Surya,

"Although this far more closer to spirituality, it still has an element or naivity about it, in that it strongly interprets the ultimate reality in emotional language and through human-centric view and attitude and romanticizes the whole thing. "

This shows you have very little understanding of what mysticism is. It has nothing to do with seeing things through an otherworldly lens, although many mystical paths may have become entangled in their own hallucinations. “Mysticism” refers to any path towards one’s enlightenment.

"in that it strongly interprets the ultimate reality in emotional language and through human-centric view and attitude and romanticizes the whole thing. "

Zen is a path of mysticism, yet it does not have such an approach - it’s approach is very down to earth and practical. Truth is not something that belongs to any of our mental cateogories whatsoever, and whatever can be said about it, is just an attempt to express the inexpressible, to describe the indescibable. Raise a finger and say “this is it!” and you have already missed it. It is not a coincidence that many Zen masters, upon coming to their awakening, ripped up the sutras to shreds. Other than direct seeing into one’s own true nature, and the transformation that comes out of seeing into one’s true nature, all belief systems and philosophies, including the very idea of no-belief system and no-philosophy, are just futile attempts to grasp the ungraspable. Truth is not something to be thought about, it is something to be lived. Now this is a very different kind of approach than many other paths of mysticism, but Zen is still a path of mysticism. Mysticism refers to any approach towards coming to a direct perception of one’s original nature.

"Tantra is basically mythologized Yoga. It is Yoga + Vedanta + Puranas. Samkhya-Yoga on the other hand is scientific Yoga, it has no place or gods and goddesses, rituals, spells, sacrifices. "

You have taken a small dimension of Tantra and stretched it as if it were the whole. It is in fact inseparable from yoga. Yoga does not refer to any particular path. The word itself means Union. Any method that leads towards coming to a direct experience of one’s original nature can be called a method of yoga. That is why Buddhists have practiced yoga, Jains have been practicing “yoga”, Sikhs have been practicing “yoga”, Hindus have been practicing “yoga”, atheist Charvakas have been practicing “yoga” - because “yoga” does not refer to any particular path, but any number of approaches in the expansion of consciousness.

As far as tantra yoga is concerned -the whole understanding of the chakra system, the nadis, the subtle body, transformation of the energies of the subtle body, and awakening of the kundalini energy at the base of the spine - has it’s roots in tantra. Even sexual intercourse, which is part of the left-handed tantra, is just used as a tool for awakening the kundalini at the base of the spine. The whole tradition of Hatha Yoga, which has come from the Nath yogis , as it is mostly concerned with awakening of the kundalini - is tantric in origin - and the founders of Hatha Yoga - Matsyendranath and Gorakshanath, were tantrics.

“Samkhya-Yoga on the other hand is scientific Yoga, it has no place or gods and goddesses, rituals, spells, sacrifices”

That is not true either. Samkhya is a system of philosophy. Like any other philosophy or belief system, it is just another futile attempt to grasp the vastness of space into one’s fist.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;74415]It is not opinion, it IS rubbish. I will have to strongly question your intelligence if you even suggest in the slightest, that for instance the article of using fire sacrifices to develop spiritual shields against anti-nuclear radiation is not rubbish.

You obviously subscribe to some of this stuff I have clearly marked as rubbish.[/QUOTE]

Whether or not you strongly question your intelligence does not matter to me

You gave an original example that listed multiple things that were in some cases completely unrelated (the shotgun approach) and you have now picked out one of the least plausible to support your opinion of the multiple things you originally listed. I have not taken any stance on any of them in any post I have made here nor do I plan to I have not said whether I felt they were ?rubbish? or not, nor do I plan to. All I have said is that your stating that “all”, of your original list, are rubbish is based solely on your opinion that is all.

What I think or feel about any of it has little to do with anything here I am talking about what you are saying, the stance you are taking, which appears to be based solely on opinion

Spirituality is, by it’s very nature, NOT SCIENCE.

Flex,

Spirituality can be approached as a science. And modern science will one day have to expand its own limited idea of what is “science” to include the inner sciences if it wants to become holistic in it’s perspective. The outer sciences explore the outer world. Just as there is a science for exploration of the outer, similarly there is a science for the exploration of man’s own being. This is the greatest fallacy - that man’s being is somehow separate from existence. The same forces which are working everywhere in the cosmos are also working within man’s being. That is why it has always been understood in the East - that man is a “microcosm” in a “macrocosm” - that the same forces which are working throughout the whole existence are also working within one’s own being. That is why if you come to know yourself ,through and through, it is not different than entering into the very depths of existence itself. Yes, “spirituality” can be approached as a science, and in the East it has been approached as a science centuries before even modern science conceived of the very idea of the scientific attitude.

Amir,

Although I do agree that spirituality can be examined BY science, I do not agree that it is science. Science seeks to categorize, solve, box, define, and label. Spirituality has an elusive element of faith, which science cannot accept. This is part of the difficulty Surya Deva has with individual spiritituality, and accepting beliefs and practices that cannot be scientifically defined.

Spirituality is directly related to one’s personal experience. You and I may look at a colour of red, and even agree to the actual tint, but who’s to say we see the same thing really?

[QUOTE=SCMT;74423]Whether or not you strongly question your intelligence does not matter to me

You gave an original example that listed multiple things that were in some cases completely unrelated (the shotgun approach) and you have now picked out one of the least plausible to support your opinion of the multiple things you originally listed. I have not taken any stance on any of them in any post I have made here nor do I plan to I have not said whether I felt they were “rubbish” or not, nor do I plan to. All I have said is that your stating that “all”, of your original list, are rubbish is based solely on your opinion that is all.

What I think or feel about any of it has little to do with anything here I am talking about what you are saying, the stance you are taking, which appears to be based solely on opinion[/QUOTE]

What I think or feel about any of it has little to do with anything here I am talking about what you are saying, the stance you are taking, which appears to be based solely on opinion

Nope, it is not opinion. It is a scientific consensus that all the stuff ive mentioned is blatant pseudoscientific quackery, hence rubbish.
At this point you remind me a of a stubborn child who refuses to listen to the requests of his parents to clean up the rubbish in his room, by saying “What rubbish”

The kind of irresponsible attitude you are evincing in your posts that we should not get rid of the rubbish in the spiritual field is exactly what I am speaking up against in this thread. Too few members of the spiritual community take responsibility and they allow the rubbish to pile up. The mature and rational members of the spiritual community need to take the parental role and ensure it gets tidied up. This is why an SRO is necessary.

If yoga is considered spiritual then I have this to say.

This discussion may be on any sensible track, if one tries to understand the nature of enquiry. Given that the enquiry is for finding the truth, both the so called ‘science’ and yoga (and similar approaches) are still looking at the same world. The differences only make it obvious that there is something fundamentally different about how science and yoga conduct the enquiry and arrive at the truth.

Science (as known today) looks at evidence which is collected in as many instances as possible. Based on the norms of a particular branch of science (a particular system of enquiry) inferences are drawn. A repeatable phenomenon or a repeatedly validated construct becomes the ‘truth of the day’. New evidence, new inference changes it in the future. Scientific knowledge is incremental, since potential evidences are infinite and methods of inferring truth are always evolving.

Yoga is a holistic concept. It presents itself as one unified umbrella structure that is whole and not constructed from pieces. But, the process of validation occurs after and not before as in science. The concept remains as a backdrop and one tries to understand any phenomenon with reference to that context. Any individual’s validation or lack of it doesn’t change the holistic concept. But the individual can very well behold a “version” of the truth.

This makes some very fundamental differences. Science remains loyal to the evidence, that can be held independent of the scientist who is trained in “objective” thinking. Yoga, on the other hand, remains loyal to self-validation that is necessarily “subjective”.

Scientists acquire ability, through training and experience, to make their opinions as devoid of biases as possible. Yogis cultivate their cognitive skills in the ‘non-attached & interior’ mode to make their ‘subjective’ thinking as unconditioned as possible.

There is no need to bring about a deliberate meeting point for these different approaches. But that can happen only when we will get rid of our own conditioned thinking. Science always reaches new thresholds of truth but is never sure that it is the ultimate truth; yoga starts with it but sounds vague until you walk the whole path. Science need not compete with yoga. Each has its own method of enquiry, vocabulory and goals. Science needs a regulatory body because the nature of its incremental knowledge requires compatible and sharable building blocks. The holistic Yoga has to have enough room for innumerable individual versions of truth that evolve and converge into the ultimate truth that is not ‘discovered’ by any community, but only validated.

Yoga needs methodology of self-validation. Yoga-sutra and other scriptures provide that quite adequately. Improvisations, interpretations and occassional support are the essential tools for yoga’s assimilation at any given time. Commercialism is only a sign of an exloding scale of yoga’s assimilation. Any regulation will restrain the very essence of self-enquiry. What yoga needs is only signposts on the paths, first-aid for the beginners, and a forum for the advanced, period. Yoga path cannot be cast in asphalt with fence on the sides, it is to be explored and unfortunately it unfolds in front of you only as you walk.

Flex,

"Science seeks to categorize, solve, box, define, and label. "

Science categorizes things for the sake of convenience, in the same way that the yogic sciences have categorized things for the sake of convenience. All of these terms that you have heard of in yoga - dharana (concentration), dhyana (meditation) and the various states of consciousness along the path of awakening, samadhi (union), koshas (sheaths of energy in the body), the chakra centers along the spine and their correspondences with the “elements”, the different pranas in the subtle body, the 72,000 nadis in the subtle body along with an understanding of their functions, all of this uses the same scientific attitude as modern science. The scientific attitude is not simply to categorize and define things for our convenience - it is an approach of experimentation and verifying one’s findings through experimentation. The same is the case with the yogic sciences - instead of an outer laboratory, here the laboratory is the inner, the scientist is the yogi, and the object of experimentation is the yogi himself. The earliest did not come to their discoveries based on scriptures or traditions, that came much later. Their discoveries had come out of a tremendous investigation into one’s own being. Through trial and error, they had to discover what works and what does not work, they understood very early on that the way the mind and body is functioning is not simply accidental or haphazard. There is a certain science as to how everything is happening in one’s system. If you know how to access this - then your own mind and body can become powerful tools for inner transformation.

"Spirituality has an elusive element of faith, which science cannot accept. "

With the way people have been using the word “spirituality”, which today can mean just about anything you want it to mean - it is a very flexible word. I prefer not to use the word at all - it tends to create more confusion than clears up confusion. What I will say is that when it comes to different paths towards awakening, you are right, not all of them have to be scientific in their attitude. What is helpful along the path has less to do with whether something is technically “scientific” or not, but whether it is effective or ineffective. Even lies can be useful in the same way that placebo pills can be useful, just because of the attitude it awakens within oneself and what changes this creates in the mind and body. So you are right, not all paths towards awakening are scientific. But there have been approaches which have been rooted in a scientific attitude. People like Patanjali, Gautama Buddha, are not interested in accepting anything on the basis of belief or faith. Their approach is through exploration and verifying things out of direct perception. On the outside, it may look like what they are offering is a belief system, simply because very few people ever become involved in the inner process of the expansion of consciousness. The kind of “evidence” here is not evidence like a thesis paper, or mathematical equations. They are only things that can be proven through direct experience. And somebody like Gautama Buddha has gone even a step further than most scientists, because he says that what he is offering is just a raft to cross over to the other shore. Once you reach to the other shore, you should set the raft aside completely - it was only a useful tool to bring you to enlightenment. Truth is not something that can be forced into our one-sided angles and perspectives. That is why “spirituality” - if one means by this a method towards one’s enlightenment - that can be scientific. But if one is talking about the actual realization of that which is infinite - that is not a science. It is beyond science. Science belongs to the mind. Realization is something which involves moving beyond mind.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;74432]Nope, it is not opinion. It is a scientific consensus that all the stuff ive mentioned is blatant pseudoscientific quackery, hence rubbish.
At this point you remind me a of a stubborn child who refuses to listen to the requests of his parents to clean up the rubbish in his room, by saying “What rubbish”

The kind of irresponsible attitude you are evincing in your posts that we should not get rid of the rubbish in the spiritual field is exactly what I am speaking up against in this thread. Too few members of the spiritual community take responsibility and they allow the rubbish to pile up. The mature and rational members of the spiritual community need to take the parental role and ensure it gets tidied up. This is why an SRO is necessary.[/QUOTE]

Since I never said anything about whether or not we should get rid of any of this I am not exactly sure what elicited the above response I also never claimed to be part of any spiritual community. I pretty much never said anything about much of what you wrote.

All I have said was regulating spirituality/thought is a dangerous way to go and I had concerns that was wat you were trying to do and the rests was your opinion. Honestly the last time I checked “rubbish” was not scientific terminology.

And to be honest, at this point I am not sure if you do legitimately not understand what I am writing or you are simply trying to get a rise out of me and change this to an argument instead of a discussion. I could also be you are not capable of calm discussion, I’m not exactly sure what it is or why many of your responses are so angry….

Either way all I have left to say here is

Okay, thank you

Okay, thank you

Welcome :slight_smile:

This shows you have very little understanding of what mysticism is. It has nothing to do with seeing things through an otherworldly lens, although many mystical paths may have become entangled in their own hallucinations. “Mysticism” refers to any path towards one’s enlightenment.

Mysticism refers to any approach towards coming to a direct perception of one’s original nature.

Okay, your point is fair. If we define mysticism as simply a path for seeking enlightenment, self-realization or connecting back to the primordial reality, then it is not problematic. It is only problematic when we start to see it as union with gods/goddesses.

You have taken a small dimension of Tantra and stretched it as if it were the whole. It is in fact inseparable from yoga. Yoga does not refer to any particular path. The word itself means Union. Any method that leads towards coming to a direct experience of one’s original nature can be called a method of yoga. That is why Buddhists have practiced yoga, Jains have been practicing “yoga”, Sikhs have been practicing “yoga”, Hindus have been practicing “yoga”, atheist Charvakas have been practicing “yoga” - because “yoga” does not refer to any particular path, but any number of approaches in the expansion of consciousness.

As far as tantra yoga is concerned -the whole understanding of the chakra system, the nadis, the subtle body, transformation of the energies of the subtle body, and awakening of the kundalini energy at the base of the spine - has it’s roots in tantra. Even sexual intercourse, which is part of the left-handed tantra, is just used as a tool for awakening the kundalini at the base of the spine. The whole tradition of Hatha Yoga, which has come from the Nath yogis , as it is mostly concerned with awakening of the kundalini - is tantric in origin - and the founders of Hatha Yoga - Matsyendranath and Gorakshanath, were tantrics.

I agree that Tantra has contributed immensely to the modern systems of Yoga, especially with the vast explorations they have done in the anatomy of the human energy body, but Tantra is based on the religious tradition of Shiavism and Shaktism, whose principal texts are the Agamas. The Agamas are religious texts which are full of mythological stories, instructions on rituals and worship. This is why I say tantra is mythologized Yoga.

That is not true either. Samkhya is a system of philosophy. Like any other philosophy or belief system, it is just another futile attempt to grasp the vastness of space into one’s fist.

Samkhya-Yoga is more than just a system of philosophy, it is a scientific system in that it is a systematic form of knowledge which is based on theory and practice. It qualifies as a science because it is an epistemology which is based on observation and inference and is evidence-based. Its statements can be tested and peer-reviewed.

Why Samkhya-Yoga is scientific and not Tantra is because Samkhya Yoga is not based on mythology or ritual. It provides proofs based on observation and inference for its central theory of matter-consciousness dualism and validates it through direct experience. The language it uses is technical and secular, words like moolaprakriti(quantum matter) chitta vrrti(modifications/waves in the mind field)

There is much that the East can learn from the West, and there is much that the West can learn from the East. One has emphasized the outer, the other has emphasized the inner.

We have already learned all we can from the East in the last century. All of the major knowledge texts of the East have been translated into modern languages and learned from. The Upanishads, for instance, provided the inspiration to Schordinger and Heisenberg to formulate their ideas about quantum mechanics.

There is nothing more than the East can teach us. The new advances in spirituality are now coming from modern science. A key area is going to be research into neurology and consciousness, so that future spirituality can make the process of accessing higher states of consciousness a lot more easier with modern tools. No longer, will humans have to meditate for years. The future will develop faster ways to achieve the same stages that would have taken the ancients decades to achieve.

It is time to progress, rather than living in the past.