Regulating the Spiritual field

Although I do agree that spirituality can be examined BY science, I do not agree that it is science. Science seeks to categorize, solve, box, define, and label. Spirituality has an elusive element of faith, which science cannot accept. This is part of the difficulty Surya Deva has with individual spiritituality, and accepting beliefs and practices that cannot be scientifically defined.

Spirituality is directly related to one’s personal experience. You and I may look at a colour of red, and even agree to the actual tint, but who’s to say we see the same thing really?

I agree with you insofar as you say we cannot agree on the actual contents of the perception of somebody and that is subjective to the individual. Some will meditate and see visions of Jehova, some will see Buddha, some will experience reality an as impersonal field of energy. The subjective accounts of reality given by yogis, mystics and mediators are different in their content, but look close enough they are not different in their structures. The structures of the mind are available to scientific study e.g., we can study the cognitive processes behind perception both the phenomenological and the physical structures(e.g., brain, nervous system) involved in the process. Eventually, our technology will advanced enough to even intercept the signals in the brain and record peoples thoughts and dreams. There are already efforts being made in in this direction.

Phenomenology as a scientific approach was first proposed in modern times by Husserl, he called it the science of subjectivity or the science of consciousness. He was convinced that the the structures of consciousness can be studied in an objective way, but not the contents. In order to separate content from structure he proposed a technique called bracketing This is where we clear the mind of all prejudices, contents, assumptions in a systematic way, put it in a quiet state to begin the process of detached observation. Today, we call this technique mental phenomenology and it is a recognized scientific method to explore mental structures.

If it sounds like Patanjali’s Samkhya-Yoga, you are right, Yoga is an ancient type of mental phenomenology. Here the bracketing process is done through the systematic application of the 8 limbs in order to make the mind as contentless and clear as possible to directly witness the structures of the mind. As Amir as already pointed out, Patanjali and Buddha’s approach is scientific. They do exactly what you identify as scientific: “categorize, solve, box, define, and label.”

Patanjali uses what we now know as the mental phenomenology approach to classify many structures of the mind, define and label and solve. He classifies the activities of the mind into 5 broad categories. He further sub-classifies the 5 categories as either affected or non affected, and then classifies 5 types of affections(identification, attachment, aversion, fear/anxiety of change, ignorance) He classifies levels of concentration. He classifies the the stage of thoughts as unconscious, subconscious and conscious. His definitions are very specific and terse for all mental phenomenon.

The usefulness of Patanjali’s scientific Yoga is that it objectively analyses the structures of the subjective. It is not concerned with content, this is why Patanjali actually says, “Mediate on whatever you want” These structures are objective and can be validated to exist by any investigator into the mind.

This is why I always insist that spirituality i.e., the study of the mind-body system is a scientific pursuit, Patanjali and Buddha prove this. Mindfulness meditation of Buddha is today a valid scientific tool used to explore objectively the structures of the mind. Spirituality should not be seen as anything other than a study of the mind-body system. The ancients like Patanjali and Buddha were far ahead of their time in their scientific approach to matters of religion, like knowing our true nature, knowing our purpose, knowing the laws of nature and knowing how to live successfully. Their insights are still as relevant to our scientific world today because they spoke a language of science, not a language of mythology, theology and superstition like their peers at the time. Again it is not surprising, that Patanjali and Buddha have been so relevant to modern psychology and modern physics. Why so many physicists and psychologists have seeked refuge in them(excuze the pun)

Patanjali and Buddha were the first to use a scientific kind of religion, and this scientific religion is distinct from the theological religion, thus we sometimes use another term to refer to it: “Spirituality” But seeing as the word spirituality is so confusing, I think will add the adjective ‘scientific’ to make it clear I am referring to scientific spirituality. Scientific spirituality is not dogma based, it is not fidelistic(faith based) it does not use any mythology or rituals, it does not subscribe to any language or cultural tradition; it is purely evidence based. It can be peer-reviewed, it can validated and is available for falsification.

Where Patanjali and Buddha left off, modern scientists are resuming their study. Patanajali and Buddha used the best type of methods which were available to them at the time: mental phenomenology and systems of logic and inference(i.e., Nyaya, which is a scientific logical system). They did not have available to them modern equipment like MRI scanners, particle accelerators and the highly elegant and sophisticated system of mathematics, so their study of the mind-body system was limited to their means and developed tools like asanas, pranayama and dharana to apply the sicnece. This means they did not discover EVERYTHING in the science of spirituality, but they certainly laid a foundation for modern scientists. Today, modern scientists are continuing the work they started and we are making progress in the spiritual sciences. We will develop even more sophisticated tools, already we have: hemi-synch, biofeedback and various modern mind-body technologies. New research is using magnetic and electrical fields to elicit the same states of consciousness that would otherwise take years of meditation using the old methods.

Note my language: It is not religious, I have a pure scientific and mature attitude to reality. This is the same attitude Patanjali and Buddha had, unlike their peers who interpreted reality in the ancient ways of theology, mythology and rituals. What Patanjali, Buddha et al realized that YES there is an infinite, organizing power permeating the entire universe and which is operating the entire universe from the stars and planets to atoms and quarks. This same power is working in the mind-body system. They demonstrated that it is possible to actually directly gain access to this power through the mind-body system through mental and physical disciplines. They demonstrated that humans have this potential to access this power within them, but it needs to be awakened. What is prevent our access to this power is the various activities of the mind(akin to noise) and is when these activities are silenced that the power becomes self-evident.

Now why does this ‘power’ get religious interpretation? I defy you to experience this power and not come up with religious sounding descriptions. The experience is subjectively experienced as blissful, full illumination, absolute joy and surrender and it brings about behaviours that others would describe as virtuous and compassionate. This power is experienced, depending on the type of samadhi attained as a first person, second person and third person experience. Hence the various religious ways of describing god: I, Him/Her and It. There is absolutely no doubt given our research so far into reality that such a power exists. Modern science is starting to echo more loudly that this power is indeed real and exists. We all have a personal relationship to this power.

I stay clear from using religious language like “god” or “spirit” and I stay clear of any kind of need to worship this power or anthropomorphisize it. It is enough for me to just accept this power as a great mystery to one day finally solve. Unfortunately, immature minds do not try to solve the mystery, but are quick to jump to describing, naming, mythologizing and ritualizing this power and hence we have religion and the myriad of belief systems about this power.

For me any kind of devotional, mythical or superstitious attitude to this power is abhorrent and indicates to me an immature mind.

For me any kind of devotional, mythical or superstitious attitude to this power is abhorrent and indicates to me an immature mind.

Bhakti Yoga may indeed be what Amir says is a skillful means to enlightenment i.e., accessing that power. I do not doubt that there have been people on devotional paths who have attained samadhi states, and I can see how it can work, because any kind of method which can induce a state of one-pointedness and hence stillness will bring about these stages. However, this particular path is for people who have immature minds, who need to be fed fantasies of gods and goddesses and mythology to make life interesting. It is like how children in preschool are taught basic literacy and numeracy using cartoons and puppets. It is a bit shameful though when we use the same approach on adults. Adults don’t have to have knowledge taught to them with cartoons and puppets. Imagine if they started doing that in graduate school, it would be rather belittling of ones intelligence. Adults are capable of dealing with abstract concepts. From the age of 14 onwards the areas in our brain that deal with abstract concepts is mature.

If you look at the kind of language devotional people use, it is rather shameful for a grown up adult. They use language like, “Mummy”, “Daddy” to refer to that power. A grown adult like Ramakrishna, a devotee of the divine mother, literally would say “Mummy” to describe the power. Jesus was not too far in using such language like, “O father” The tendency of such minds is to anthromorphosize what they don’t understand, in the same way primitive tribal cultures anthromorphosized natural phenomena like rain, stars, sun, moon, wind, fire.

I mean all I can say is such people need to grow up and start to realize what they call god is very much a natural power which they don’t yet understand. It is a mystery for us all how this power this creates, organizes and destroys the universe - but we are starting to understand it gradually, in what Suhas says are increments of knowledge, through science. Lets not insult our intelligence by worshiping it. We do not need it to worship anymore than we need to worship gravity or electricity. We don’t need pointless and bizarre rituals like idol worship, sacraments, severe austerity to please the gods, incantations etc etc These are all hallmarks of immature minds. I cannot even for a second imagine an advanced enlightened civilization anywhere in the universe having any place for such activities. It would be as out of place as many neanderthal practices are today.

As I said elsewhere, we are on the path of becoming an interstellar civilization by the 22nd or 23rd century. It is time to grow up. Some of us have grown up faster than others. Patanjali and Buddha were obviously well ahead of their time, their thinking, approach and attitude is very modern. Many people still think like and behave they are living in premodern times. This is the modern scientific age, were in the 21st century, an age of nanotechnology and quantum physics. Stop insulting the intelligence of humanity with religion, superstition and rituals, quackery etc etc It is time to become spiritual like Patanjali and Buddha i.e., learn more about your mind-body system and gain control of it and the powers hidden in it.

This makes some very fundamental differences. Science remains loyal to the evidence, that can be held independent of the scientist who is trained in “objective” thinking. Yoga, on the other hand, remains loyal to self-validation that is necessarily “subjective”.

I am only quoting this part of your post, not because the rest of your post is not relevant, but this part sums up the point of your post to me. The idea that science only deals with ‘objective’ phenomenon is pretty outdated today, ever since the emergence of new research methodologies in the the 20th century like qualitative research methods like phenomenology, which is particularly used in social sciences, science is no longer about just measuring external phenomena. The scientific method has expanded to include a whole range of research methodologies and improved and refined on older research methods.

It is a bit of stereotype that science is just about dissecting things and analyzing them with microscopes. Social scientists use various research methods to study social phenomenon, phenonenological methods like ethnographic studies using participant and non participant observations. In psychological sciences, particularly consciousness studies, mental phenomenology is now a very common research methodology used to directly observe cognition. It is strongly based on Yogic and Buddhist methods. Thus science in its present form today would consider include Yogic methods as scientific. Indeed, if that conviction was not there, scientists would not be taking Yoga seriously today. They know that Yoga’s effects on the mind-body system can indeed be measured and predicted and have been able to test many of Yoga’s predictions. Even the more fantastic aspect of Yoga, mind-body interactions i.e., siddhis is given serious attention by many scientists today.

Indian psychology, including Yoga and Buddhism had become relevant in the mid-20th century when scientists realized their scientific nature. Many of the tools in Yoga and Buddhism are today used in modern psychotherapy and consciousness studies.

Scientists in the 20th century had long realized that Indian philosophy was scientific and hence why they drew heavily from it, particularly Samkhya, Yoga, Vedanta and Buddhism. 21st century science thus already has assimilated these Indian systems and is much better because of it. It is due to this intercourse that the modern disciplines of quantum sciences, trans personal psychology, consciousness studies have emerged. The trajectory in the 21st century is not going to be East-West synthesis that was the preoccupation of the 20th century, it is going to be progress in the spiritual sciences. Finding better ways to control the mind-body system and achieve samadhi states. We are already far ahead of our ancients in our understanding about realty, nature, space and time, mind and consciousness. We have far better tools at our disposal than the ancients had. Patanjali and Buddha et al will definitely be remembered in the future of spiritual sciences, but they are like the Newtons and Einsteins of the spiritual field, eventually they too will be superceded.

There is no denying the fact that science is evolving, it always has. It is also true that yoga is better understood by science today than a few centuries back. However, it does not appear that traditional science in its modern incarnation is arriving from one end to meet disciplines like yoga arriving from the other.

The new sciences have impressive names but from the very many directions they come from suggest that there’s is still a “bottom-up” enquiry. Yoga as one spiritual enquiry remains “top-down”. Science cannot hope to fuse with yoga tomorrow with its linear growth. It would happen only when a brand new paradigm of yogic science, if you will, arrives mainstream.

For this to happen, science will have to first create its own holistic ‘theory of everything’ and then drill down to lower levels of strands akin to today’s branches of specialization. Only then the phenomena like speed of mind, processes like intuition, sharing by astral communication, methodologies of enquiries in the inner space and pedagogy of Ishvara will become real science.

This may happen, but the inner space and subjective enquiry makes any regulation impossible. The discussion was about regulating the spiritual field.

. Yoga as one spiritual enquiry remains “top-down”. Science cannot hope to fuse with yoga tomorrow with its linear growth. It would happen only when a brand new paradigm of yogic science, if you will, arrives mainstream.

I am not sure what you mean by yoga is ‘top down’ The way I understand Yoga, Yoga works like the scientific method. It observes phenomena, it formalizes them with theory and makes predictions e.g., when you breath deeply and slowly, the thoughts will reduce or when you do samyama on x then y will happen, or when you do x asana then y benefits will take place. When you reach x stage of samadhi, then y effects will be observed.

There really is no difference between the Yogic method and the modern scientific method. Yoga is based on observation and inference and validation as is modern science. Like the scientific method, Yoga stresses on objective and impartial observation of data and using a controlled systematic process.

For this to happen, science will have to first create its own holistic ‘theory of everything’ and then drill down to lower levels of strands akin to today’s branches of specialization. Only then the phenomena like speed of mind, processes like intuition, sharing by astral communication, methodologies of enquiries in the inner space and pedagogy of Ishvara will become real science.

If you mean by holistic theory, a theory that includes consciousness, then I agree modern science still lacks one. There is still a lot of resistance in the scientific community to take consciousness seriously at all. However, scientific spirituality takes consciousness very seriously and is doing a lot of research in this area to examine the key of areas you suggested: intuition, astral communication/telepathy/remote viewing.

This may happen, but the inner space and subjective enquiry makes any regulation impossible. The discussion was about regulating the spiritual field.

I have already answered this point: Basically a science of subjectivity is possible if we look at the structure of the subjective, as opposed to the content. Yoga is a science of subjectivity or a science of consciousness. It does not deal with the content, but the structures that exist in the mind e.g. ahamkara, manas, sense organs, the 5 types of vrittis, the types of kleshas, karma.

Yes, this discussion is about regulating the spiritual field. Here are areas we can regulate

  1. Research into scientific spirituality - We can ensure that research standards are done using the scientific method and due process of peer review. High quality research methods using double-blind studies etc.
  2. Documentation and reporting of scientific spirituality - We can ensure that only high quality reports and studies get published, which have passed the process of peer review and are professionally published
  3. Clinical practice - We can ensure that members maintain a high standard of ethics, not using spirituality for profit, to sell books and DVD’s and deceive the public with false promises and hype
  4. Safeguard against quackery - Reviewing other areas to see who meets the standards to raise awareness and differentiate from valid and professional research the pseudoscience and quackery e.g., the article I published earlier using Agni Hotra sacrifices to generate spiritual shields from nuclear fallout.

I think the idea I am proposing is good, more people should support it :wink:

How to regulate the spiritual field?

By man? at this present stage of development, in context of the spritual aspect - it can not be regulated. Either he doesn’t know - or is too easily corrupted, and led astray.

so then how to not be jipped?
That is in large part mostly up to you. There may be some things “karmas” that direct your way into unpleasant things but . . .

I think the best you can do is read the shastras, yoga upanishads, and other religious or spiritual materials that interest you and follow along with what is advised, as far as the injunctions and rules, which are foundational in my experience, and then most importantly - practice…

How to know the validity of yoga? Practice.

How to know the validity of the teachings? Practice.

How to know what you are? Practice.

How to know what is? Practice.

How to know what you can do and how to do it? Practice.

What are we talking about?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI

From the Hatha Yoga Pradipika of Svatmarama

Chapter 1. Sutra 66-69
66. Whether they are old, young, sick or weak, anyone who gives up laziness can become an adept.

  1. Success comes only to those who practice. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.

  2. Not by dressing a certain way, or the telling of stories can one achieve success. Practice alone is the means.

  3. The various asanas, bandhas, mudras, kumbhakas, and other divine means should be practiced until the fruit of Raja yoga is obtained.

Chapter 2.76 - No success in Raja Yoga without Hatha Yoga, and no success in Hatha Yoga without Raja Yoga. It is wise then to practice both of these until complete success is won.

Ok, let me add something to this interesting thread.
Imho, the reasons that this thread has so many different opinions, is because the topic is controversial.
For some reason, there lies a taboo on the so called scientific-mindset in the so called spiritual-field.
Imho, all spiritual knowledge which includes notion of skepsis, are buildingblocks for todays science.
Putting both against eachother is incorrect knowledge, and will lead to internal conflict.
For that, I credit SD for bringing this up.
Allow me to add my humble opinion:

I love practice, meditation, yoga, and I love to read/learn about it.
I love practice working with computers, and I love to read/learn about.
However I prefer not to talk about computers stuff in social life.
However I prefer not to talk about ‘spiritual’ stuff in social life.
Not everybody is interested in it.
And sometimes if they are, it usually turns out the topic has too many branches.
Unfortunately with computer-topics, you have enduser-branches, programming-branches, science-branches.
Unfortunately with spirituality-topics, you have complete fantasy-branches, and more science-oriented branches.

Example for a fantasy-branche to me is when people talk / gather information which could be written like this:

There are strong connections between feelings and quantummechanics, they exist of many small particles which are fired from the heart. Therefore we must ‘calibrate’ our feeling ‘particle-emitter’ to ensure we create understanding to one another, in those cases we ‘know’ what to do. There are even… Higgs Boson…yadayada…

Note the ‘’-signs…obviously many writers assume that many people will have to make a commitment to fill in the blanks of these ‘’-words. Also lot of times I see articles which create a connection with a scientific term, which is not acknowledged on the scientific side. I might be wrong here, but to me these kind of articles look like a viparyaya-trap (false knowledge).
Teaching like this would exclude quantummechanics / scientist from union with the spiritual field.
What if this is the first article they stumble upon when they got interested in ‘spirituality’?
Wouldnt it be a bit harsh to ramble something wise like “true understanding needs practice”?
(The guy is a quantummechanics lol)

I can totally understand why SD promotes a better infrastructure.
With todays technology, things get more and more categorized and organize as we speak, so I have good faith in that things will be easier accessable.

@Melchizedek:

sqz sutra 1.1:

  1. there are many ways of doing many things

:slight_smile:

[QUOTE=sqz;81014]@Melchizedek:

sqz sutra 1.1:

:)[/QUOTE]

Such a truth that such a truth doesn’t need to be stated -at least - to me.

Who can regulate it ?

SHe, and they, and he, who have regualated it. By their works.

You. read.

You. Test.

The scriptures. They are text books.

You test. If finally wise.