Religion huh?

Spirituality Religion
#1

OK, so I’m an atheist confined to the religious forum. I don’t know what rules I have broken, or what broken rules warrant being confined to the religious forum.As there is not much for me to do here, I thought I might as well make the most of it and talk about my views on religion…

Religion is faith, faith is religion. Faith is the assertion of a view, independent of evidence. I believe faith is intellectually laziness. I have been told, that as an atheist, that I have faith in atheism. This is ludicrous, as atheism is not a belief or ‘product’. Atheism is a rejection of a claim. It is a non-belief. It is exactly the same as not believing in unicorn or fairies. The reason why we don’t have a term ‘a-unicornist’ or ‘a-fairiest’, is because we don’t have the majority of the population ramming their beliefs in unicorns down our throats, or flying planes into buildings, because the people on the other side the world don’t believe in our unicorns, but instead believe in their fairies. Atheism is not a belief, the same as ‘not stamp collecting’ is not a hobby.

I have been told I have ‘faith’ in science. This too is a mentally bewildered opinion, as the scientific methods are about evidence alone. If you choose to use the term ‘faith’ in such a loose fashion, you might as well say i have ‘faith’ in plumbing or engineering. If my water pipes blew and I called a plumber, you would have to have your head in the clouds, to suggest that I have as much ‘faith’ in plumbing as you do for believing in an imaginary friend you call ‘god’.

We have no evidence anywhere to suggest that there is some special meaning, or that the universe owes us something. We have no reason to assert metaphysical, or supernatural beliefs, and I think the very notion of it, belittles us as intelligent humans. Sure, the ego wants a meaning and to feel important, sure many people want the creation of the universe to have themselves at the center of it, but that’s just our insecurity, wanting to be special, and feel important.

As Christopher Hitchens once put “Our frontal lobes are too small, and our adrenal glands are too large, and we’d rather accept a conspiracy theory over no theory at all.” (I’ve been told that I quote others too much, but it’s the same people who say that, that try and take credit for everything they’ve ever learnt)
If we fail to base our beliefs on reason, evidence, skepticism and logic, and instead accept religion, where do we stop? Where’s the line between reality and fiction. Once we except anything out of faith, we delude ourselves, and place ourselves on the slippery slope that lead us into a world without reason and logic, where people distort science to justify their beliefs, and where truth is forever lost in a cloud of ego-fueled smog. For the religious, truth is an obstacle that interferes with the task of preserving an inflated illusion of self importance. Ironically the religious try to disguise their delusions as ‘truth’.

The universe is awe inspiring! Evolution is absolutely fascinating beyond words, and our mind are just so complex and captivating. Yet the whole thing is just cheapened when we assert a petty, pissy, ignoble and lame god there.

#2

Not all religion is faith. There are a few religions which are anti-faith such as Hinduism and Buddhism, and to some extent Taoism. There are perhaps more, but I don’t know of them. In the case of Hinduism and Buddhism, it strongly stated in these religions to reject faith, speculation and superstition and to only accept what your own reason and direct experience tells you.

Is atheism a religion? This is a debatable position. To believe in the non-existence of something is still a belief. How can you know certainly that that such an entity does not exist in the universe, when you don’t know the entire universe. Therefore to positively assert the non-existence of something is a belief. It would be more accurate to say that you don’t know(agnosticism). Secondly, people who profess to being atheists, tend to have common beliefs and practices. They believe in materialism and hedonism, they worship man(star worship etc) they blindly believe in the media and what science says.

You have been told you have faith in science because you cite stuff from science as if it is an absolute fact. You also pick and choose from science whatever supports your beliefs in atheism and reject that which doesn’t. You also profess faith in scientific institutions like journals, but again are not consistent when the same journals go against your beliefs.

#3

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;39770]Not all religion is faith. There are a few religions which are anti-faith such as Hinduism and Buddhism, and to some extent Taoism. There are perhaps more, but I don’t know of them. In the case of Hinduism and Buddhism, it strongly stated in these religions to reject faith, speculation and superstition and to only accept what your own reason and direct experience tells you.

Is atheism a religion? This is a debatable position. To believe in the non-existence of something is still a belief. How can you know certainly that that such an entity does not exist in the universe, when you don’t know the entire universe. Therefore to positively assert the non-existence of something is a belief. It would be more accurate to say that you don’t know(agnosticism). Secondly, people who profess to being atheists, tend to have common beliefs and practices. They believe in materialism and hedonism, they worship man(star worship etc) they blindly believe in the media and what science says.

You have been told you have faith in science because you cite stuff from science as if it is an absolute fact. You also pick and choose from science whatever supports your beliefs in atheism and reject that which doesn’t. You also profess faith in scientific institutions like journals, but again are not consistent when the same journals go against your beliefs.[/QUOTE]

Besides you being just over 99% wrong in the points raised in your post here, I will address one bit of confusion you seem to be having… Atheist are also agnostic. We can’t know for certain that there is no god, just like we can’t know for certain that there are no unicorns. It is about probability. There is no evidence for the existence of unicorns, so I am ‘A-unicornist’. I am also agnostic, because I can’t know for certain that there are no unicorns. It is, however, highly unreasonable to believe in unicorns, due to the lack of any evidence. There is no evidence for gods/god, so I am atheist. I am also agnostic, because I can’t know for certain that there are no gods/god. It is however highly unreasonable to believe in gods/god, due to the lack of any evidence. This example that I give to unicorns and gods, equally applies to Karma, rebirth, and enlightenment. All of which requires faith. If you are Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim, Scientologist, or believe in the tooth fairy, you are asserting a belief based on faith, weather you except it, or not.

#4

No an atheist and an agnostic are not the same. If you are atheist you do not believe in god, and if you are agnostic you simply don’t know either way.

As for evidence for god, karma, rebirth or enlightenment. There is indeed loads of evidence. It does not convince you. however, but it convinces me.

#5

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;39787]No an atheist and an agnostic are not the same. If you are atheist you do not believe in god, and if you are agnostic you simply don’t know either way.

As for evidence for god, karma, rebirth or enlightenment. There is indeed loads of evidence. It does not convince you. however, but it convinces me.[/QUOTE]

We’ll of course evidence you might find, convinces you. You have an agenda to try and find anything you can use as evidence.

And as far as explaining how an atheist IS an agnostic, well I have already, clearly explained that above. Maybe you should re-read it, and if you still don’t get it, then I don’t think I can help you any further. I gave a VERY clear and concise example.

#6

Your explanation is bunk. An atheist is not an agnostic. You are either one or the other, not both.

The evidence convinces me because the evidence is compelling. It does not convince you, because
it goes against your beliefs. You have already shown us you don’t listen to evidence, even when it is from
scientific journals, if it goes against your beliefs.

#7

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;39818]Your explanation is bunk. An atheist is not an agnostic. You are either one or the other, not both.

The evidence convinces me because the evidence is compelling. It does not convince you, because
it goes against your beliefs. You have already shown us you don’t listen to evidence, even when it is from
scientific journals, if it goes against your beliefs.[/QUOTE]

Well I’ve CLEARLY illustrated how atheists are commonly agnostics. It’s not my explanation that is bunk, but your comprehension skills… actually I don’t believe that. Your smarter than that. I think you are deliberately ‘playing dumb’, in order to evade the issue.

#8

The world is composed mainly of Theists: people who believe in the existence of one or more Gods and/or Goddesses out of the many thousands that have been worshipped down through history.

A minority of people are strong Atheists who deny that any deity or deities exist. They believe that the hundreds of the religious creation stories that exist in the world have it all wrong: A deity or deities did not create humans; it was humans who created – and continue to create – the many thousands of Gods and Goddess that people have devoutly and sincerely worshiped over hundreds of thousands of years.

However, there is a third group who, when asked whether a deity or deities exist, don’t have a yes or no answer. They are the 10% of American adults who hold Agnostic beliefs about God’s existence.

Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

#9

Cultural Dictionary
agnosticism [(ag- nos -tuh-siz-uhm)]

A denial of knowledge about whether there is or is not a God. An agnostic insists that it is impossible to prove that there is no God and impossible to prove that there is one. ( Compare atheism.)

Cultural Dictionary
atheism [(ay-thee-iz-uhm)]

Denial that there is a God. (Compare agnosticism.)

The American Heritage? New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition

#10

You Yogiadam according to the definition as cited above are a strong atheist. You actively go around this forum telling everybody belief in god/deity and the supernatural is nonsense. Not only does that make you a strong atheist, it makes you a fundamentalist atheist.

#11

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;39831]The world is composed mainly of Theists: people who believe in the existence of one or more Gods and/or Goddesses out of the many thousands that have been worshipped down through history.

A minority of people are strong Atheists who deny that any deity or deities exist. They believe that the hundreds of the religious creation stories that exist in the world have it all wrong: A deity or deities did not create humans; it was humans who created – and continue to create – the many thousands of Gods and Goddess that people have devoutly and sincerely worshiped over hundreds of thousands of years.

However, there is a third group who, when asked whether a deity or deities exist, don’t have a yes or no answer. They are the 10% of American adults who hold Agnostic beliefs about God’s existence.

Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm[/QUOTE]

You still don’t get it!!! You didn’t re-read my post above at all did you? An agnostic does not necessarily have to be atheist, but an atheist is usually an agnostic. I explained how this works above. I used english. I used an example that is easy to understand, even for an idiot. Re-read my example above of how I am an atheist AND agnostic, and if you still don’t get it, then I’m afraid you are beyond help.

#12

Yogiadam it is clear who is beyond help here. I just cited from two dictionaries showing the clear difference between an atheist and an agnostic.

You are either one or the other, you cannot be both.

You are an atheist, not an agnostic.

Good grief, now I know there is no point arguing anything with you. You never change your views no matter even when clear evidence against it is presented.

#13

Perhaps it would help for you to understand what an Atheist and an Agnostic would say:

Atheist: There is no god/god is nonsense/god is imaginary like the tooth fairy
Agnostic: There may or may not be a god, there is no way of knowing for certain

It is clear you are an atheist :wink: Stop trying to pull our leg now by claiming you are agnostic. Nothing you have said on this forum since you’ve been here is agnostic. It is clear and cut rabid atheism .

#14

Now, listen very carefully, cause I’m only going to do this once… Atheism is a rejection of a claim. That claim being god. The rejection is made, due to lack of evidence. I, as a rational thinking human being, admit, that I can’t know weather god exists for certain, so I am agnostic… Ok I’ll use the exact same example using unicorns… I don’t believe in unicorns, because there is no evidence, I also am aware that I can’t know for certain that unicorns exist, cause I can’t disprove unicorns, so I am agnostic towards unicorns. However, or though I can’t be 100% certain that unicorns don’t exist, I reject the claim that unicorns exist. Do you understand now. I know you claim to have done philosophy, and this is as basic as it can get. Nothing complicated here.

#15

Here this should help… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Py1Bz8XOo&feature=related

#16

I, as a rational thinking human being

lol

Your explanation is still not cutting it sorry. An agnostic will simply give no yes or no answer to the question, “Is there a god” They are undecided. They do not believe that this question could be answered logically.

You, however, have already decided that because of the absence of evidence, you reject a belief in god. You go around telling people belief in god is nonsense and that they have imaginary friends. An agnostic would not do that. An atheist would.

#17

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;39840]Here this should help… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Py1Bz8XOo&feature=related[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is so helpful that one of the commenters on it says this:

all we are left with is the word Agnostic. However the dictionary tells us that an Agnostic is anyone who doesn’t think we can PROVE the existence/non-existence of God - by that definition, the Agnostic Theists and Agnostic Atheists you described would simply be labelled ‘Agnostics’ in the dictionary.

BreakRightIntoHeaven 3 months ago BreakRightIntoHeaven
3 months ago I’m a little confused. By your definition (can I ask where it came from?) there seem to be 2 factors in analysing a religious standpoint

  1. KNOWLEDGE (Gnosticism/Agnosticism)

  2. BELIEF (Theism/Atheism).

Therefore if we call someone simply an ‘Agnostic’ it is because they are without Factor 2 (‘Knowledge’ applies to them because they claim not to have it, but ‘Belief’ does not apply to them because they do not claim to have it OR lack it). Therefore Factor 2 is cancelled out and (continued…)

Sorry that explanation(or rather apology) in the video is as credible as a vegetarian saying that they eat fish and chicken :wink:

#18

OK fine. I’m an Atheist. And if Atheism is a religion, than so is not believing in unicorns, and I assume you are part of that religion as well… unless you believe in unicorns (wouldn’t surprise me)

#19

Unicorns may or may not exist. I don’t know. I only see a fraction of the universe at any given time. So I cannot rule out that somewhere in the unseen part of the universe unicorns exist.

However, there is an epistemological problem in your comparison of the concept of god with unicorns. The unicorn is a compound concept made out of objects in the world(horse + horn) whereas god is a pure concept. It is neither made from objects in the world or from a combination of them.

The idea of a perfect, infinite and pure being is a priori. It is something that is already a part of our psychology.

Kant proved this in his critique of pure reason.

#20

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;39847]Unicorns may or may not exist. I don’t know. I only see a fraction of the universe at any given time. So I cannot rule out that somewhere in the unseen part of the universe unicorns exist.

However, there is an epistemological problem in your comparison of the concept of god with unicorns. The unicorn is a compound concept made out of objects in the world(horse + horn) whereas god is a pure concept. It is neither made from objects in the world or from a combination of them.

The idea of a perfect, infinite and pure being is a priori. It is something that is already a part of our psychology.

Kant proved this in his critique of pure reason.[/QUOTE]

No, your splitting hairs now. God, like unicorns, is subject to evidence. You can’t try and shelter god from evidence. Anyway, I’m just wasting my time now obviously, so I’m done banging my head against the brick wall.