Religion huh?

Spirituality Religion
#21

No, it is not called splitting hairs. It is called critical examination of ideas or philosophical investigations.

You are making the comparison between god and unicorns, without realising they are two different kinds of entities. It’s as good as comparing apples with oranges.

I think really it is others who are wasting their time trying to reason with you. You do not seem open to reasoning, discussing, debating any of your beliefs with us. This is why I laughed when you said you were a rational person :wink:

#22

In philosophy there are three kinds of concepts:

A posteriori: These are empirical objects, that we sense in our world with our 5 senses e.g., chairs and tables
Chimeras: These are objects of the imagination, made out from various combinations and permutations of empirical objects e.g., unicorns and dragons
A priori: These are intuitional objects. They are neither objects we know through our 5 senses or combinations and permutations of them e.g., mathematics, philosophy, logic, law etc

The best proof for the existence of a priori objects is that there is no such thing as a perfect circle in the empirical world. Perfect circles only exist in our mind. Same with all other mathematical entities.

You cannot get empirical evidence for intuitional objects. Can you get empirical evidence for the number 7?

#23

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;39851]In philosophy there are three kinds of concepts:

A posteriori: These are empirical objects, that we sense in our world with our 5 senses e.g., chairs and tables
Chimeras: These are objects of the imagination, made out from various combinations and permutations of empirical objects e.g., unicorns and dragons
A priori: These are intuitional objects. They are neither objects we know through our 5 senses or combinations and permutations of them e.g., mathematics, philosophy, logic, law etc

The best proof for the existence of a priori objects is that there is no such thing as a perfect circle in the empirical world. Perfect circles only exist in our mind. Same with all other mathematical entities.

You cannot get empirical evidence for intuitional objects. Can you get empirical evidence for the number 7?[/QUOTE]

Yes here… 7… can you see that?

#24

LOL

You would make one lousy philosopher :wink:

I do not see the number “7” I just see some lines. This I interpret as the number 7 because I have been told this is the number 7. To another person not told this is the number 7 or who has never heard of the the concept of numbers this is a meaningless inscription.

There is no such thing as objects called numbers in the real world. They are only psychological entities intuited by the mind in order to organize and arrange sense impressions into a sensible whole.

The fallacy where we mistake psychological entities to be actual things in the world is known as psychologoism.

#25

Hi …Yogiadam…I have a pretend scenario for you

  1. You have been on a beach, surfing, all day, your physically tired, its been a great day

  2. You come back home and decide to do some asanas

  3. Whilst relaxed, doing them, you [B]open your eyes[/B] and see, clearly between both eyes and projected ahead, a Buddha.in Lotus position about the size of chair. Real in form.

  4. You dont feel panicky (you might wonder why) you see him clearly, you have time to note a few thoughts you have…then, quite naturally, you think…who is that? and the answer comes to you with assurance. He stays there for a few minutes say, maybe 15 minutes and then goes

  5. What you going to do next???

  6. Commit yourself for psychiatric treatment perhaps

  7. Or, as a Scientist, you look for some kind of evidence for this experience perhaps and find references to it in say Buddhism e.g

  8. So now your faith has turned into something else…this phenomena is something you have personally experienced.

  9. Then you realise there is much more to it than you formerly thought

  10. Your blind faith is no longer a blind faith, you have personal evidence backed up by others, many many others.

Blind faith can be a precursor to experience and experience is a precursor to certain faith

Yes???

#26

[QUOTE=kareng;39888]Hi …Yogiadam…I have a pretend scenario for you

  1. You have been on a beach, surfing, all day, your physically tired, its been a great day

  2. You come back home and decide to do some asanas

  3. Whilst relaxed, doing them, you [B]open your eyes[/B] and see, clearly between both eyes and projected ahead, a Buddha.in Lotus position about the size of chair. Real in form.

  4. You dont feel panicky (you might wonder why) you see him clearly, you have time to note a few thoughts you have…then, quite naturally, you think…who is that? and the answer comes to you with assurance. He stays there for a few minutes say, maybe 15 minutes and then goes

  5. What you going to do next???

  6. Commit yourself for psychiatric treatment perhaps

  7. Or, as a Scientist, you look for some kind of evidence for this experience perhaps and find references to it in say Buddhism e.g

  8. So now your faith has turned into something else…this phenomena is something you have personally experienced.

  9. Then you realise there is much more to it than you formerly thought

  10. Your blind faith is no longer a blind faith, you have personal evidence backed up by others, many many others.

Blind faith can be a precursor to experience and experience is a precursor to certain faith

Yes???[/QUOTE]

I would piss my pants, and keep an eye on it. If I had any more hallucinations I would go to the doctors. Fortunately, I have plenty of experience working with sufferers of psychosis, so hopefully this would help me establish some insight into my condition. That’s a scary scenario you put forward.

#27

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;39866]LOL

You would make one lousy philosopher :wink:

I do not see the number “7” I just see some lines. This I interpret as the number 7 because I have been told this is the number 7. To another person not told this is the number 7 or who has never heard of the the concept of numbers this is a meaningless inscription.

There is no such thing as objects called numbers in the real world. They are only psychological entities intuited by the mind in order to organize and arrange sense impressions into a sensible whole.

The fallacy where we mistake psychological entities to be actual things in the world is known as psychologoism.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I was having a joke there. But thanks for the personal attacks anyway.

#28

Ha I somehow knew your answer would be something like that!!

So we can establish that all people that have experienced this are Psychotic…

Yogiadams reply…Yes

Makes me wonder how many unfortunate souls have been mislead by doctors and such into thinking that phenomena like the above or other phenomena, needs treatment, have been treated and walk around thinking there is something wrong with them. hmmm

just so you know…you wouldn’t piss yr pants hence the inclusion of the opening line in 4.

Blind faith can be a precursor to experience and experience is a precursor to certain faith…

Or experience is a sign of Psychosis where you end up having unnecessary treatment given by ill informed medics.

…

#29

[QUOTE=kareng;39895]Ha I somehow knew your answer would be something like that!!

So we can establish that all people that have experienced this are Psychotic…

Yogiadams reply…Yes

Makes me wonder how many unfortunate souls have been mislead by doctors and such into thinking that phenomena like the above or other phenomena, needs treatment, have been treated and walk around thinking there is something wrong with them. hmmm

just so you know…you wouldn’t piss yr pants hence the inclusion of the opening line in 4.

Blind faith can be a precursor to experience and experience is a precursor to certain faith…

Or experience is a sign of Psychosis where you end up having unnecessary treatment given by ill informed medics.

…[/QUOTE]

So how do you categorise psychosis? Is schizophrenia, for example, not an illness in your view. I don’t have the answers, it’s a very complicated issue, so I just putting it out there.

#30

You may want to figure that out before being released :slight_smile:

#31

Well since youve asked…
Psychosis and Schizophrenia …are all conditions where a perfectly normal person has been latched onto by an undesirable entity…the entity/s enter via one of the orafices.

The results will be to manipulate the person with wrong thinking… audible voices, giving instructions hallucinatory experiences, disorganized speech all experienced as negatives. inability to handle emotions, delusions, social dysfunctions…the list goes on.

The treatments will suppress the entity/s effectiveness Cures will be when the entity
can no longer be effective with its victim either through the treatment and /or time or natural resistance by the victim or all three.

Cant wait for your reply!!

#32

[quote=kareng;39898]The results will be to manipulate the person with wrong thinking… audible voices, giving instructions hallucinatory experiences, disorganized speech all experienced as negatives. inability to handle emotions, delusions, social dysfunctions…the list goes on.
[/quote]
So what you’re saying is 99.9% of us suffer from these afflictions?

A teacher of mine once pointed out that the only difference between us and that “crazy person talking to themselves” is that they talk out loud.

#33

Yogiadam is in an unfair situation…he holds his ground remarkably well considering the opposition in numbers!! I love his posts now I understand him more!!! still waiting yogiadam
(i am serious about the above by the way)

#34

No David only those who have been latched onto,in a seriously negative way, will produce the results that might commit them to hospital or prison… the entities are around us all the time, some more distant than others in a dimension most cant see here but a dimension that is very close to us…attempts will be made to enter and some will even momentarily enter and then be rejected by the majority of us by the strength of the persons resistance to keep their mind in a stable state

E.G.If someone is latched onto but resists the commencement of say voices, or wrong thinking, this resistance will be enough for the entity to know that there is no point in residing in this person any longer, and leaves. Other people can have one, or more inside them for years where the entity is relying/feeding on their weakness which might not be enough to commit them to hospital or put them in prison but might be say persistence to lie, over eating, sexual obsessions, persistence of a behavior that is destructive to the individual to a lesser degree but nonetheless is destructive.

#35

What Im saying is nothing new in terms of the subject of demons, jinn, hungry ghosts etc

In Christianity there is reference of Jesus casting out 7 demons from Mary Magdalene,
Evangelists and their casting out of demons.

Anyone can cast their own demon/s out if they think they have one.

Its a terrible shame that the consideration is dropped or seen as ridiculous by many in todays society…the cure is simple really…repetitious undesirable behaviour is a sign.

There are also Physical complaints that can apply.

#36

oops

#37

[QUOTE=YogiAdam;39894]Ok, I was having a joke there. But thanks for the personal attacks anyway.[/QUOTE]

:wink:

Now to move this discussion into a more insightful area now that you hopefully understand the difference between a priori, posteriori and chimeras.

The concept of god as an absolute being is an priori. It is something built into human psychology. This has been demonstrated in cross-cultural studies which shows that children naturally believe in god, attribute purpose to natural events, believe in the supernatural. If we look at very early primitive cultures such as with cavemen we find rituals like worshipping of fire, gods etc

This is because human beings are by their very nature idealistic beings. We seek not what is in experience, but what is beyond experience - the transcendent. Perfection, utopia, salvation, happiness, immortality, love are many names for the ideals that we all seek. Our psychology itself compells us to seeking perfect being. This is where the concept of god comes from.

Now different human cultures have interpreted the concept of god in different ways. Western cultures have a monotheistic interpretation of the concept of god as monarch who rules the universe. Eastern cultures have an impersonal interpretation of the concept of god as natural law, as a flow, as a lifeforce, as universal mind or being. Secular cultures have a non-theistic interpretation of the concept of god as human compassion, equality, freedom etc

The fact is clear though our psychology has an in-built concept of god, indicating a perfect and ideal state of being. Now the fact of the matter is this perfect and ideal state of being has been experienced by countless people from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all cultures. It is therefore a common human experience. You do yourself no favours by denying this.

#38

Surya deva… We seek not what is in experience, but what is beyond experience

In terms of the ultimate yes but we also seek experience before we think we can get there, as a marker, a guide.affirmation .

#39

Karen, in fact our seeking of experience is always underlied by a grasping for what is beyond experience. If you look at every desire or want, underlying it is a desire for the ideal. Everytime we do something, even as simple as meeting up for coffee with friends, we are not doing it for that one experience, we are doing it because we are seeking the ideal of friendship/kinship. Similarly, when we go out on dates, we are not doing it for that one experience of the date, we are doing it because we are seeking the ideal of love. Likewise, when we are outside shopping and we want to buy something, we are not doing it for that one thing, we are doing it because we are seeking the ideal of happiness.

In fact the principle of seeking is already inherent in the fact of desire. As desire itself presupposes that there is an an absence of something. Therefore fundamentally we human beings feel that we are lacking/incomplete and thus are tirelessly seeking experiences to fill the void - but no matter what we do - we can never fill it. We do everything that is imaginable to fill that void - sampling various food and drink around the world, datiing and sex with various people, doing various kinds of sports, indulging in various kinds different kinds of entertainment, taking up various kind of hobbies, travelling to various places in the world, doing various kind of arts, doing various kinds of jobs and tasks.

Humans have tried virtually everything to fill that void. I myself have tried dozens of things in my life and still that void remains. This is what Buddha really meant with the first noble truth “Life is suffering” I can totally relate to what Buddha said, because despite having a decent amount of abundance in my life, I feel a great pain. Very intense, sometimes feels like somebody is cutting me with a knife. It is the pain of emptiness. I deeply feel that emptiness in my life. I have that disease that Buddha diagnosed.

#40

[QUOTE=kareng;39898]Well since youve asked…
Psychosis and Schizophrenia …are all conditions where a perfectly normal person has been latched onto by an undesirable entity…the entity/s enter via one of the orafices.

The results will be to manipulate the person with wrong thinking… audible voices, giving instructions hallucinatory experiences, disorganized speech all experienced as negatives. inability to handle emotions, delusions, social dysfunctions…the list goes on.

The treatments will suppress the entity/s effectiveness Cures will be when the entity
can no longer be effective with its victim either through the treatment and /or time or natural resistance by the victim or all three.

Cant wait for your reply!![/QUOTE]

OK, I’ll have a go. I was going to just ignore the rest of this thread, cause I am so exhausted from trying to explain to SD how I am an atheist/agnostic. It was of no use, I just gave up. But since you are so eager to hear my contribution, I’ll have a go! Again, forgive me if my reply is a little jumbled, cause I am currently very, very exhausted. I’m working two jobs, trying to complete some Psychology assessments, and doing volunteer work, so I’m a bit stuffed at the moment. I do have some of my own opinions on this subject, as I work a lot with sufferers of mental illness…

Firstly, I do think that some of the symptoms you described, are not exclusive to Psychotic illness. Inability to handle emotions and social disfunction, are symptoms that could appear in what could be consider a ‘normal’, undiagnosable individual. Keeping in mind, that it is highly uncommon to find an individual, who could be considered to be in perfect mental health. We are ALL mentally unhealthy to some point, it’s just a question of degree. And one thing I would have to disagree with the Buddha on, is that you can’t be cured. I see no evidence to suggest you could be cured from all neurosis. Mental health isn’t a question of solving, it’s a question of managing.

I would agree that the main common symptoms of Psychotic illnesses are; hallucinations and delusions. One is an experience of hearing or seeing things that aren’t actually there (hallucination), and the other is a fixed, false belief(delusion). By ‘fixed’, I meaning, that even if you provide evidence to the contrary, the false belief is still held. I once worked with a middle aged lady, who claimed that she was pregnant, even though she wasn’t, and she held this belief for 15 years. You COULD NOT convince her that she was not pregnant, no matter how persistent you were, or how little evidence she had to hold the belief. And although she did not have any children of her own, you could not convince her that she had none. According to her, she had 40 children.

Personally, if I was to physically see a an image of a Buddha appear in front of me (assuming it’s not a statue or photo), I could not see any logical reason why I would not have to consider this an hallucination. That is an hallucination, by it’s very definition. I have done meditations, where I deliberately visualize a Buddha, with great effort and commitment. You then visualize the Buddha enter your body and visualize becoming one. These are only visualization though, and if I did actually, physically see a Buddha, I would be off to the doctor, personally.

As for delusions. I really, genuinely do mean no disrespect to anyone here, but I can only conclude that religions are a kind of mass delusion. They hold beliefs that not only are void of evidence, but in fact, have strong evidence to the contrary. If I was to isolate the belief, for example, that the universe is 6000 years old, and we were created by a god, and did not evolve from simple forms of life. Then if one held such a belief, and even evidence to the contrary could not convince the believer otherwise. Then I am left with no choice, but to except that this individual is experiencing delusions… In the case of religion, however, there could be some exceptions. I think that there is a high possibility that some religious believers are lying about their beliefs. Maybe some believers are forced by their family or cultural expectations, to assert a religious belief. Or maybe some believers really do want to believe, to the point that they just say they believe certain thing, even though, deep down, they may actually not.