Role of positive thinking in yoga

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

I found interesting article today ("Negative experiences can stop painkillers working"):

Fragment:
"...Heat was applied to the legs of 22 patients, who were asked to report the level of pain on a scale of one to 100. They were also attached to an intravenous drip so drugs could be administered secretly.

The initial average pain rating was 66. Patients were then given a potent painkiller, remifentanil, without their knowledge and the pain score went down to 55.

They were then told they were being given a painkiller and the score went down to 39.

Then, without changing the dose, the patients were then told the painkiller had been withdrawn and to expect pain, and the score went up to 64.

So even though the patients were being given remifentanil, they were reporting the same level of pain as when they were getting no drugs at all."

Recently I'm thinking about role of "positive thinking" and "confidence in effectiveness" of spiritual practices. I found on occasions teachers encouraging/requiring students to have a degree of such confidence in practice. However, I find it at odds with the "experimental" aspect of yoga which I really like: just do your practice and see results (which would mean that effects of yoga are totally independent on persons beliefs in their effects). This article confirmed my suspicion that this confidence may play an important role in effect of practice. So does it mean that its not true that I can have free experimental mind (allowing myself to feel any degree of doubt I want) and practice yoga in order to get optimal benefit? Is it possible that a doubt can block some areas of development? And lack of doubt is sometimes a condition of progress?

I'm wondering if anyone experienced a correlation between confidence/doubt and effects of practice.

#2

I don’t understand the way in which you are using the term “confidence”.

#3

I’m using it in very general, every-day life meaning. Wiki has nice definition:

“Confidence is generally described as a state of being certain either that a hypothesis or prediction is correct or that a chosen course of action is the best or most effective.”

So that would be for example a confidence you feel when you take medicine or treatment that you tried before and experienced its positive result.

#4

In other words, which is the case with yoga:

Is it:

Yoga Practice A + Confidence in practice -> Result A
Yoga Practice A + Doubt in practice -> Result A

or is it:

Yoga Practice A + Confidence in practice -> Result A
Yoga Practice A + Doubt in practice -> Result B

#5

It depends on what is the result you’re trying o achieve. If it’s something intangible, then there’s a high risk of fooling oneself into believing something that may not be real. The question makes more sense if you’re thinking in terms of something more tangible, like a particular asana that is challenging for you. Result A is what you’re trying to achieve. Doubt in practice will only lead to half hearted attempts that could result in failure. Confidence that you can achieve it, along with determination and right practice will definitely give you a better shot at it.

#6

[QUOTE=Pawel;51766]I found interesting article today ("Negative experiences can stop painkillers working"):

Fragment:
"...Heat was applied to the legs of 22 patients, who were asked to report the level of pain on a scale of one to 100. They were also attached to an intravenous drip so drugs could be administered secretly.

The initial average pain rating was 66. Patients were then given a potent painkiller, remifentanil, without their knowledge and the pain score went down to 55.

They were then told they were being given a painkiller and the score went down to 39.

Then, without changing the dose, the patients were then told the painkiller had been withdrawn and to expect pain, and the score went up to 64.

So even though the patients were being given remifentanil, they were reporting the same level of pain as when they were getting no drugs at all."

Recently I'm thinking about role of "positive thinking" and "confidence in effectiveness" of spiritual practices. I found on occasions teachers encouraging/requiring students to have a degree of such confidence in practice. However, I find it at odds with the "experimental" aspect of yoga which I really like: just do your practice and see results (which would mean that effects of yoga are totally independent on persons beliefs in their effects). This article confirmed my suspicion that this confidence may play an important role in effect of practice. So does it mean that its not true that I can have free experimental mind (allowing myself to feel any degree of doubt I want) and practice yoga in order to get optimal benefit? Is it possible that a doubt can block some areas of development? And lack of doubt is sometimes a condition of progress?

I'm wondering if anyone experienced a correlation between confidence/doubt and effects of practice.[/QUOTE]

Its all mental :slight_smile: I went through upper gastroscopy with no sedation whatsoever and entire hospital came over just to look at this "tough russian bear". :slight_smile: I just did not have time to spend hours in the recovery room and did not want to pollute my body with chemicals. I told myself - it will not hurt and it did not;) "its all mental" - my martial art teacher always tells me

#7

“Positive thinking” is not going to be of much help. Because the whole approach of yoga is not to think positively, but to have a direct insight into your own inner workings. For that, what is needed is an eye which is capable of seeing things as they are, without judgment, without prejudice, a certain vision which is beyond the likes and dislikes of the mind. So it is not a matter of optimism at all.

Seeing through the lenses of optimism, everything can only appear “positive”. That is one extreme. The same is the case with the other extreme. Looking through the lenses of pessimism, everything can only appear “negative”. In both cases, one has become prejudiced, it prevents you from coming to a certain clarity which is just like a mirror, reflecting things as they are. For those who are interested in being “positive”, it may be useful if you are just an egoist who is interested in finding some way to help fulfill one’s desires, or finding some intelligent way to deceive yourself. But for one who is a seeker of Truth, it is absolutely irrelevant. For one who is a seeker of Truth, what is needed is inquiry, a scientific attitude towards the expansion of consciousness. One will have to enter into the laboratory, try and fail many times before one begins to get a sense of the Way. That is how the fragrance of wisdom starts emanating, the lotus needs time to ripen and come to a maturity. And part of the search for Truth is to enter into the search without assuming anything whatsoever. One will have to set aside all of one’s clinging to belief systems, assumptions, philosophies, and enter into the unknown, in recognition of one’s ignorance.

#8

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;51863]“Positive thinking” is not going to be of much help. Because the whole approach of yoga is not to think positively, but to have a direct insight into your own inner workings. For that, what is needed is an eye which is capable of seeing things as they are, without judgment, without prejudice, a certain vision which is beyond the likes and dislikes of the mind. So it is not a matter of optimism at all.

Seeing through the lenses of optimism, everything can only appear “positive”. That is one extreme. The same is the case with the other extreme. Looking through the lenses of pessimism, everything can only appear “negative”. In both cases, one has become prejudiced, it prevents you from coming to a certain clarity which is just like a mirror, reflecting things as they are. For those who are interested in being “positive”, it may be useful if you are just an egoist who is interested in finding some way to help fulfill one’s desires, or finding some intelligent way to deceive yourself. But for one who is a seeker of Truth, it is absolutely irrelevant. For one who is a seeker of Truth, what is needed is inquiry, a scientific attitude towards the expansion of consciousness. One will have to enter into the laboratory, try and fail many times before one begins to get a sense of the Way. That is how the fragrance of wisdom starts emanating, the lotus needs time to ripen and come to a maturity. And part of the search for Truth is to enter into the search without assuming anything whatsoever. One will have to set aside all of one’s clinging to belief systems, assumptions, philosophies, and enter into the unknown, in recognition of one’s ignorance.[/QUOTE]

Amin, I think I know what you mean, but it’s not exactly what I wanted to ask. It’s difficult to pinpoint, so maybe little experiment. If you would need to abandon your current practice and would have to for two years follow practices outlined on below sites:

http://www.luxworldtravel.com/Pages/wellness_vacations.htm (1 year)

http://www.dhamma.org/ (1 year)

What would you fee/think at beginning of each year? Would you have (considering your level of development) some “feelings” that one year may be well spend and the other wasted? If you can imaging such feelings, then this is what I mean by “positive thinking” or confidence in practice.

Ps. I wouldn’t fully agree that seekers of truth are beyond positive/negative. They are as polarized as everyone. Just truth is a positive value for them (and ignorance is negative).

Ps2. From my observations, I found that everyone thinks: “I have direct perception of reality and others are conditioned by culture/past experience/ education/religion/etc.”

#9

[QUOTE=Asuri;51844]It depends on what is the result you’re trying o achieve. If it’s something intangible, then there’s a high risk of fooling oneself into believing something that may not be real. The question makes more sense if you’re thinking in terms of something more tangible, like a particular asana that is challenging for you. Result A is what you’re trying to achieve. Doubt in practice will only lead to half hearted attempts that could result in failure. Confidence that you can achieve it, along with determination and right practice will definitely give you a better shot at it.[/QUOTE]

Yes. I think its basis of effect of confidence level on results of practice. Question is, is this mechanism responsible for 100% or are there other contributions to this effect?

I remember at some point I had a phase of interest in lucid dreaming. I started to “work” on it and soon I had results. But at some point I stopped. After some time I decided I want to go back to this practice, move it forward. But I had no serious motivation, rather just thought that it would be good to work on it. And to my surprise I had no lucid dreams almost at all (despite I did the same exercises and preparation).

#10

[QUOTE=CityMonk;51853]Its all mental :slight_smile: I went through upper gastroscopy with no sedation whatsoever and entire hospital came over just to look at this “tough russian bear”. :slight_smile: I just did not have time to spend hours in the recovery room and did not want to pollute my body with chemicals. I told myself - it will not hurt and it did not;) “its all mental” - my martial art teacher always tells me[/QUOTE]

Wow, that’s awesome! Can you alleviate pain at all occasions? What is it that you feel? Is it that you are not affected by pain or you don’t feel anything?

#11

[QUOTE=Pawel;51882]Wow, that’s awesome! Can you alleviate pain at all occasions? What is it that you feel? Is it that you are not affected by pain or you don’t feel anything?[/QUOTE]

In Yogic language, when you are able to severe the connection between the mind and the body, you will not feel distress in the body. for it is the mind that carries the feeling of pain to the brain.

#12

[QUOTE=Pawel;51882]Wow, that’s awesome! Can you alleviate pain at all occasions? What is it that you feel? Is it that you are not affected by pain or you don’t feel anything?[/QUOTE]

most of the times…i had a lot of physical pains in my life, and used painkillers in very extreme case. (the procedure I mentioned is not painful, but for convenience purposes the sedation IV is administrated…)

i do feel pain, i just do not panic when something hurts. pain is just a response of the body.

i would guess the more pain you have experienced the more tolerance you have…

i think pain tolerance this is just an exploration of your comfort limits. sometimes one need to work and concentrate when something hurts really bad, probably painkiller can be a solution. probably concentration on work can take the pain away…depends.

also, i suggest that females have more pain tolerance… just because:)

most of the times pain is a waste of fagocytes, which is a signal to repair and attract more repair components to the part of the body. love you pain - this is your body.

#13

It is useful to learn how to direct energy (prana, life force, qi, vital energy…) to the affected body organ to heal it. It can be done…and it is not even so complicated.

Look at a simple method: your knee hurts. Tense it low, then relax. Do it ten times, a few times a day.

For more complicated cases you have to learn how to use your power of will to direct the
vital force.

#14

Pawel,

“Ps. I wouldn’t fully agree that seekers of truth are beyond positive/negative. They are as polarized as everyone”

I have never said that a seeker of Truth has transcended the idea of positivity or negativity. I have said that one who has come to the Truth, who has awakened a certain clarity of vision, has moved beyond both optimism and pessimism. Both optimism and pessimism are prejudiced attitudes of the mind, and one who lives in a meditative consciosuness is neither optimistic nor pessimistic, but simply like a mirror reflecting things as they are. Without attraction towards or aversion from, neither liking or disliking - one can remain a witness without becoming identified with whatever may arise in one’s experience from moment to moment. The moment the mind becomes identified, the moment even a particle of judgment arises, one’s vision has become distorted, one has lost contact with this mirror-like awareness.

#15

Even physical pain can be said to be a psychological phenomenon, although it remains a physical experience for most. Pain is not experienced in the body, there is nothing which is experienced in the body because the seat of one’s experience is within one’s own being. Pain is experienced at the level of the mind, and is connected to certain centers in the brain. If one were to obtain a conscious control over those centers, one would obtain a conscious control over the experience of pain. That is how it has happened that one may be able to self-anaesthesize oneself, without any drugs. In certain hospitals in Europe, some doctors have trained their patients to anaesthesize themselves for open surgery - and one can remain absolutely conscious during the whole process, which otherwise could have been a tremendously dangerous thing. Because under such intense pain, one can die from it. This control of the experience of pain can happen as a by product of hypnosis, or it may happen as a result of concentration, or visualization, or meditation - but it comes to the same, that pain is largely a psychological phenomenon, although for most it remains something physical in their experience. As long as one’s awareness is centered around the body, everything is bound to be determined by physical situations.

#16

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52829]Pawel,

“Ps. I wouldn’t fully agree that seekers of truth are beyond positive/negative. They are as polarized as everyone”

I have never said that a seeker of Truth has transcended the idea of positivity or negativity. I have said that one who has come to the Truth, who has awakened a certain clarity of vision, has moved beyond both optimism and pessimism. Both optimism and pessimism are prejudiced attitudes of the mind, and one who lives in a meditative consciosuness is neither optimistic nor pessimistic, but simply like a mirror reflecting things as they are. Without attraction towards or aversion from, neither liking or disliking - one can remain a witness without becoming identified with whatever may arise in one’s experience from moment to moment. The moment the mind becomes identified, the moment even a particle of judgment arises, one’s vision has become distorted, one has lost contact with this mirror-like awareness.[/QUOTE]

Hm… I don’t know about this super-clear state of just reflecting things as they are - never experienced it. In meditation I always see things in a very similar way as I see them in “normal” state. And there is one thing I was always wondering about this state of “just reflecting”: if my mind would just reflect, I wouldn’t recognize my friends, trees, buildings etc. Everything would be just a blur of unidentifiable impressions from my senses. Because if I see a tree it means my mind already processed this visual input, classified it according to my previous experiences and provided me with short narrative of what I’m seeing. And in this case its not just reflection but heavy image processing and classification. How can one say that I’m just “directly perceiving reality” in such case?

And I think there is still some positve-negative tension in what you wrote. Because you write about this state of “direct seeing” as something superior to “normal” state. You used even term “distortions”. Do you consider those distortions as something beneficial or rather as obstacle? Should I seek distortions if I want to progress in my spiritual life?

#17

Pawel,

“just reflecting”: if my mind would just reflect, I wouldn’t recognize my friends, trees, buildings"

It is not really the case. All that it means is that one is capable of witnessing the mind without clinging to whatever arises in one’s experience. The moment the clinging activity of the mind enters into the matter, the moment the mind becomes identified with anything whatsoever, pleasurable or displeasurable, one has become the slave rather than remain centered as the master.

That does not mean that you will be unable to recognize what enters into your experience, or that somehow you will be removed from them. On the contrary, one can only be absolutely involved if one’s awareness is rooted in the present, and yet without entanglement, without forming any attachment whatsoever. But one should not take this for granted, one will have to investigate into oneself and find out whether it is actually possible to have an experience of the mind, and yet at the same time with tremendous freedom.

“Because if I see a tree it means my mind already processed this visual input, classified it according to my previous experiences and provided me with short narrative of what I’m seeing.”

It is not the mind itself which is aware. That is what we ordinarily think, because we have become too identified with the workings of the mind. The mind is just like a screen upon which projections happen. And like any film - if you become too identified with it’s scenes, the characters, the plot - then you become hypnotized by it. Even though you remain in the seat in which you have always been sitting, because you have forgotten of yourself, you become absorbed in the dream. And, unless one can remain absolutely mindful, alert, and awake - most of the experience of the mind is entirely one’s own imagination. Even though the present moment passes by - one needs eyes to see it, and ears to hear it. Most of the time, we are either entangled in memory or imagination, but as to this very moment - although one’s senses are intact, it is almost as though one is blind, deaf, and dumb. And everything in existence is being orchestrated from this present moment, the moment one has lost contact with it, in one’s experience one has lost contact with the whole existence.

If one investigates a bit closer, one will be able to discover that you are not the mind, that there is an intelligence which is seeing through the mind. The mind is just like a window for something else which is not of the mind. It is impossible for the mind to be aware of itself, simply because you can watch the activities of the mind, just as you can watch the activities of the body. If the mind could watch itself - then it is just like setting up a mind besides itself to watch another mind, and setting up yet another mind to watch this mind, and you would have an infinite series of minds watching other minds. And the result would simply be confusion.

It is not the mind which is seeing through your eyes, and hearing through your ears. One’s true nature is like boundless light, reflecting in all directions without limit. The mind is like a prism which has taken this boundless light and has restricted it into a certain form. It is out of this that all of one’s subjectivity arises. And most of our sufferings are created not because we are having an experience of the mind, but because one has been unable to have an experience of the mind and yet without entanglement.

#18

“Because you write about this state of “direct seeing” as something superior to “normal” state.”

I do not know what you mean by “normal”, but if we are to use the word, I would say that what is “normal” is just what one ordinarily experiences. For one person, to live out of consciousness may be normal. For another, to live out of unconsciousness may be “normal” for him. What is “normal” is just the common standards which one abides by.

It is not that a meditative awareness is “superior” to any other state. It is simply a matter of cause and effect. Certain states of being trigger more and more suffering. Certain states of being liberate you from suffering. And that is all that one is seeking in life - whether one is aware of it or unaware of it - one is simply seeking happiness and freedom. But for most, because one’s attention and energy has not been moving in the right direction - most people are seeking outwardly for their own freedom, not realizing that it is one’s state of consciousness from moment to moment which determines one’s experience, not the outer world. At the most, the world can only give you information. What the mind does with this information is entirely one’s own doing. And because life is always in a state of unceasing change, if one is dependent upon the outside world, then it cannot provide anything more than temporary satisfaction.

#19

It is a little difficult to comprehend your question.

What i do understand that you are trying to say that we can influence our body my conditioning our mind. Which I support. Our mind has super control over the rest of the body.

yes Yoga is a very powerful tool to get a grip over your brain, but it is possible only after a lot of years and dedicated effort in trying to achieve.

from
team member
yogaexpertsonline

#20

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;52833]Pawel,

“just reflecting”: if my mind would just reflect, I wouldn’t recognize my friends, trees, buildings"

It is not really the case. All that it means is that one is capable of witnessing the mind without clinging to whatever arises in one’s experience. The moment the clinging activity of the mind enters into the matter, the moment the mind becomes identified with anything whatsoever, pleasurable or displeasurable, one has become the slave rather than remain centered as the master.

That does not mean that you will be unable to recognize what enters into your experience, or that somehow you will be removed from them. On the contrary, one can only be absolutely involved if one’s awareness is rooted in the present, and yet without entanglement, without forming any attachment whatsoever. But one should not take this for granted, one will have to investigate into oneself and find out whether it is actually possible to have an experience of the mind, and yet at the same time with tremendous freedom.

“Because if I see a tree it means my mind already processed this visual input, classified it according to my previous experiences and provided me with short narrative of what I’m seeing.”

It is not the mind itself which is aware. That is what we ordinarily think, because we have become too identified with the workings of the mind. The mind is just like a screen upon which projections happen. And like any film - if you become too identified with it’s scenes, the characters, the plot - then you become hypnotized by it. Even though you remain in the seat in which you have always been sitting, because you have forgotten of yourself, you become absorbed in the dream. And, unless one can remain absolutely mindful, alert, and awake - most of the experience of the mind is entirely one’s own imagination. Even though the present moment passes by - one needs eyes to see it, and ears to hear it. Most of the time, we are either entangled in memory or imagination, but as to this very moment - although one’s senses are intact, it is almost as though one is blind, deaf, and dumb. And everything in existence is being orchestrated from this present moment, the moment one has lost contact with it, in one’s experience one has lost contact with the whole existence.

If one investigates a bit closer, one will be able to discover that you are not the mind, that there is an intelligence which is seeing through the mind. The mind is just like a window for something else which is not of the mind. It is impossible for the mind to be aware of itself, simply because you can watch the activities of the mind, just as you can watch the activities of the body. If the mind could watch itself - then it is just like setting up a mind besides itself to watch another mind, and setting up yet another mind to watch this mind, and you would have an infinite series of minds watching other minds. And the result would simply be confusion.

It is not the mind which is seeing through your eyes, and hearing through your ears. One’s true nature is like boundless light, reflecting in all directions without limit. The mind is like a prism which has taken this boundless light and has restricted it into a certain form. It is out of this that all of one’s subjectivity arises. And most of our sufferings are created not because we are having an experience of the mind, but because one has been unable to have an experience of the mind and yet without entanglement.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I just thought you had in mind that you are able to directly experience the reality. I agree that we are perceiving contents of the mind (which is always a “experience-shaped” representation of reality).