Selfishness is a virtue

Spirituality
#1

The more I think about it, the more I agree with Sartre when he said “Hell is other people” To be honest I have had enough of people, the need for them in my life, their problems, issues and their destiny. I am sick of the politics, the games, the betrayal of trust, disappointments, shallowness and hypocrisy of people. The truth is we are alone in this world, nobody belongs to anybody or is obliged to do anything with them, we humans are just glorified animals. Like for animals, it is really about survival of the fittest. We have tried to make ourselves seem more special by creating activities, jobs, goal and society, but really we are all on our own fending for ourselves.

It is better to be selfish and focus on just ones own needs. Who gives a damn about others and their needs.

#2

Selfish
Selfless
these have nothing to do with others.
They have to do with yourself.
one means.
to be of self.
the other.
To be without self.

So!
remember it is not your mind that is angry or fed up with people, it is your heart. For the Condition of your mind rests upon the conditions of your heart. :slight_smile: and that is a secret of life!

#3

So how do you melt that glacier of dark Ice around the heart which, by the power of greyskull, thinks all these ridiculous things?

#4

We just had a rather traumatic incident take place, and what surprised us the most was the lack of support and involvement from our friends. It just made us realize that people are selfish.

If I could review my life and trace the source of all my woes, it is people. Whether that was the bullying and teasing in school, the gossip and backbiting at college, the politics and fakeness at work - it’s always people. At the same time it is my fault for letting myself get sucked into people. I know realized something, the more one can be alone in life, the more of ones power one can reclaim.

I realized something when dancing in the club the other day, when I looked around at all the people about me intoxicated, dancing away to the same popular tracks music, kissing and having sex or looking for sex. That was, “Mere mortals” As soon as I started thinking that I regained my power. First, I felt bad that I was actually looking down on these people, then I realized the distinction between powerful people and these mortal beings, and the gods. Suddenly I thought, “Wow, they are insignificant, they don’t really matter. Their self-created problems, their gossip, their society, their rituals and games” That vanquished the illusion for me that I need to be involved with other people. I don’t. I am a lone soul, on my own quest for immortality, and who is aware of his immortal nature. One day I will become a god and these other people will bow to me in worship :wink:

Really puts into perspective that it is ourselves that are important in life. Our needs, our goals and our development, NOT others. We are not here for Others!

#5

If all think like you surya deva that we are not here for others there will be chaos.

Everyone has the right to be happy, if you become a god that would be your responsibility to make other people happy isnt it. If you cant see your self in that position helping those mortals it means you are not ready for it yet.

I know what you mean about people they are acting in this world as if it was real and they create all kind of miseries to others and them self, but they are just ignorant so they dont know better. But also yoga says live in the world yet above it. You dont need to go to the discoteque you dont need to go and socialize with those people. And how can we judge people by their mind when they have a soul which is unaffected by their behaviour? But as i said i agree living in the world can be a pain if having people around you that is heavily ruled by their mind. The higher level of annoyance you have the higher chance four selfdevelopment. So dont see it as negative only. Just retract from the world and it will be better for you.

IF you cant avoid someone completely just limit your interaction with that person.

#6

To gain powers and use them to satisfy desires is to be avoided not because it is power. But because u use them for desires,u streangthen self identification.
To become a little God. Is to reflect the eternal. Doing this,u would loose self identification. But remember self identification is in the heart/body/feelings more than the mind. Do not disconnect from feelings by not identifying with them. This is folly. A tree with no roots cannot grow.
Rather realize that the condition of the mind rests on the foundation f
Of the heart. So u must change the heart. Knowing this, and knowing that “I am/I exist” is a name of God stating that God has no self identification beyond I exist.
You may become as God is. Then you are as he is. But u cannot be the lord.
so this feeling in you, this perception coupled with a feeling. Know that it is a self identification. And likewise will hinder you.
Bahkti’s are the greatest. For they start their work on the heart, and if met with success they "loose themselves in God!"
The moon bird has only thoughts of the moon "always have ur thoughts on God"
The rain bird does nothing but yearn for it to rain "heart"
kabir was the lords lover.
In the end to me,all 3 paths lead to the 1. Mind body and heart. In my eyes the 3 paths are but 1. And should be joined. The 1 can be reached by any of the 3 alone.
But that is incomplete!
Rice,eggs,butter. One of my favorite meals. Yet the meal is incomplete without all 3.

#7

In my opinion selfishness is the root cause of all miseries, individually and collectively. If we could just get out of it and learn again how to love unconditionally. Love is the prime necessity of the soul.
The power of love is so much stronger than everything else that exists. We can renounce everything, but we can never live without love. We may live in the most difficult circumstances, but if we have loving relationships then we feel our life is meaningful and fulfilling. But on the other hand, even if we have everything we want, all opulence, all kinds of enjoyments, money, position, fame, power, people praising us, but if there is no real love in our life, we are feeling desperate, hopeless, empty. This is because the nature of the soul is to love.
Of course, in order to learn to give love one also has to receive unconditional love. Otherwise, out of frustration, one will turn away from everyone. In a given situation that can also be useful, I think. Just to maintain ones clarity and strength.

#8

?whatever the mind does, it does for the love of its own self. The very nature of the self is love. It is loved, loving and lovable. It is the self that makes the body and the mind so interesting, so very dear. The very attention given to them comes from the self?
?but the self is there. Your desires are there. Your longing to be happy is there. Why? Because you love yourself. By all means love yourself – wisely. What is wrong is to love yourself stupidly, so as to make yourself suffer. Love yourself wisely. Both indulgence and austerity have the same purpose in view – to make you happy. Indulgence is the stupid way, austerity is the wise way?
?above all you love yourself; you want yourself secure and happy. Don’t be ashamed of it, don’t deny it. It is natural and good to love oneself. Only you should know what exactly do you love? It is not the body that you love, it is Life – perceiving, feeling, thinking, doing, loving, striving, creating. It is that Life you love, which is you, which is all. Realize it in its totality, beyond all divisions and limitations, and all your desires will merge in it, for the greater contains the smaller. Therefore find yourself, for in finding that you find all? ~Nisargadatta Maharaj

#9

[QUOTE=fakeyogis;75110]If all think like you surya deva that we are not here for others there will be chaos.

Everyone has the right to be happy, if you become a god that would be your responsibility to make other people happy isnt it. If you cant see your self in that position helping those mortals it means you are not ready for it yet.[/quote]

Why am I responsible for another person’s happiness? I certainly cannot make somebody else happy, only they can make themselves happy. There is no button I can press and magically make somebody happy. And why should I go about the world, like Mary Poppins and make people happy? Am I obliged to do this? Yep, didn’t think so.

We are not born with others, we are born on our own. We go on our own as well, we do not take anybody with us. At every moment in life you only have yourself as a constant companion. Nobody else can be your constant companion, not even your family and friends. What would happen if due to circumstances you were separated from your friends and family and found yourself in a foreign place? You would adapt to the new place and the people there. People come and go out out of your life and awareness all the time, your only constant companion is you. An hour ago I was with my work collegues and myself, now I am here just by myself. Myself is constant. Others change.

Thus it is YOU who matter: Your needs, your goals, your happiness. Somebody else’s happiness is not going to bring you happiness, in the same way somebody else riding a rollercoaster is not going to produce the same thrills and excitement for you. If you want the same thrills and excitement, then it YOU who needs to ride the rollercoaster not somebody else.

#10

Love for me has to be one the greatest fictions human have fabricated. It is one of those fairy tales, like Santa Clause that people are brought up from childhood, but then eventually most of us mature and realize the reality of love. We realize our parents did not have our interests exclusively in mind, that people can actually be quite cruel to each other, that most people are shallow and selfish, and that love is based on various factors like status, money, physical attractiveness or just convenience(e.g., going with somebody just because you don’t think you will get anybody else) We are also told fictions like god loves us or god is all loving, and of course some of us eventually realize we are being told fibs when we realize just how rampant suffering is in the world.

What is this thing called love? We say “I love chocolate” but what we are really saying is that chocolate produces within us pleasurable sensations. If it did not produce pleasurable sensations, but instead produced painful sensations, we would say “I hate chocolate” Likewise, when we encounter somebody who makes us feel good, we say “I love you” but when that same person makes us feel bad, we say “I hate you” Therefore all love is really selfish. It is based on how good we feel about ourselves.

Many times we have said “I love you” to somebody, and then a while later(days,weeks, months, years) we say “You have changed” What has really changed is that person no longer makes you feel good, so you no longer feel ‘love’

Humans have created their own fantasy worlds to make life seem more meaningful than say the life of a cockroach, a dog, a cow. Certainly a cockroach, a dog or a cow does not think, “I must love others or I must make another happy” No animals do not suffer from fantasy like humans do, so the live selfishlessly as nature intended them to do. They live to survive. Indeed, humans too lived like this in prehistoric times, when such notions as civilization or society did not exist, humans lived by hunting and gathering. Everybody for themselves.

Just as we humans think cockroaches are insignificant, likewise the gods think humans are insignificant. The rituals of the cockroaches, whether they live or die, their history or their personal life is insignificant to us humans, likewise our rituals, whether we live or die, our history and personal life is insignificant to the gods. As the Vedas say: “as animals are food for humans, humans are food for the gods.”

As somebody born a human I have a choice either to remain an insignificant and pathetic mortal human, the equivalent of a cockroach to the gods, or transform myself into a god. So it is better I do not waste my time with people and focus purely on myself, and that hard work will one day turn me into a immortal god, while they remain as pathetic insignificant mortals.

#11

Selfishness is being devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others. As well as characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself

Whether or not it is a virtue is really not worth spending a lot of time discussing.

But, to look at this from the POV of someone who may be selfish (and I am not saying that you are) saying that Selfishness is a virtue, one must admit that based on the definition the one calling it a virtues motivation could be thought of as highly suspect if in fact they are making that statement regardless of others and what they may feel.

Basically if one is selfish and telling others selfishness is a virtue they are simply justifying their lack of concern for others by labeling it as such and since in fact the one stating this is selfish it would not matter what others said…

Again, I am not saying that you are it is simply a statement on selfishness

#12

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75138]Why am I responsible for another person’s happiness? I certainly cannot make somebody else happy, only they can make themselves happy. There is no button I can press and magically make somebody happy. And why should I go about the world, like Mary Poppins and make people happy? Am I obliged to do this? Yep, didn’t think so.[/QUOTE]

You are not obliged to make others happy. It has to be spontaneous. Have you never made anyone happy? Has no one ever made you happy?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75138]We are not born with others, we are born on our own. We go on our own as well, we do not take anybody with us. At every moment in life you only have yourself as a constant companion. Nobody else can be your constant companion, not even your family and friends.[/QUOTE]

Not our family and friends. But the Lord is always our companion, being next to us in our heart. Otherwise how do we get our karma? Who is with us, who is the witness?

#13

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75144]What is this thing called love? We say “I love chocolate” but what we are really saying is that chocolate produces within us pleasurable sensations. If it did not produce pleasurable sensations, but instead produced painful sensations, we would say “I hate chocolate” Likewise, when we encounter somebody who makes us feel good, we say “I love you” but when that same person makes us feel bad, we say “I hate you” Therefore all love is really selfish. It is based on how good we feel about ourselves.

Many times we have said “I love you” to somebody, and then a while later(days,weeks, months, years) we say “You have changed” What has really changed is that person no longer makes you feel good, so you no longer feel ‘love’[/QUOTE]

What you are describing is not love in the real sense of love. When we act out of real love we do it for the benefit and happiness of someone else without consideration of our own interest. Fake love leads to disappointment and frustration.
You are saying that real love exists in dreams only. I don’t think so. But it is usually mixed with a certain portion of selfishness. The mother loves her child and she does everything to make it happy. She is prepared to even give up her life (maybe not every mother) for the sake of her beloved child. But there may also be some expectations of personal benefits, like hoping the child will increase the honor of the family. So it may not be completely pure.
Pure love is spiritual, it is an expression of the pure soul.

#14

Yep, that’s a pretty good definition.

Whether or not it is a virtue is really not worth spending a lot of time discussing.

Basically if one is selfish and telling others selfishness is a virtue they are simply justifying their lack of concern for others by labeling it as such and since in fact the one stating this is selfish it would not matter what others said…

Again, I am not saying that you are it is simply a statement on selfishness

I am justifying why selfishness is required if one wants success and power in life, the greatest success is the transformation into a god. Indeed, look at the life of many successful and powerful people, and you will see they did by following their own selfish interests. The managing directors and CEO’s of many companies have through their own hard work have become billionaires like Richard Branson etc These people have now become like gods of sorts to ordinary people, employing millions, influencing the media and world politics. They enjoy a life of luxury and can obtain anything they want. While, ordinary people simply dance to their tunes.

There are then the great spiritual leaders like Buddha etc who have followed their own selfish interests, retracted from society to find enlightenment and then founded their own religion. Countless yogis have followed the same path, dedicating their life to total self-transformation.

In fact anybody who has been important in our history has done so through selfish pursuit. Einstein locked himself up in his room for days and night for months working on his theory. Gandhi, dedicated himself to the pursuit of freedom and equality. Rosa Parks asserted her own independence by refusing to go the back of the bus.

It would seem from the above examples that selfishness is certainly nothing bad, but is the sign of independence and power. Those of who claim it will prosper through the dint of our dedication to our selfish pursuits. It is us who people will remember and obey. People themselves are insignificant. Nobody remembers most of them.

#15

Of course, various things can make you happy. It all depends on what makes you feel good. Maybe somebody you like says hi to you, and that makes you feel good, so you are happy. I have many people happy simply by just being as I am. For some people it does not take much to make them happy.

I just think it is a completely wrong approach to go about your life trying to make others happy. You lose a lot of valuable time which you can use for your own selfish pursuits. The more of our time we give to others, the less we have for ourselves. We don’t really have that long on Earth if you put our time on Earth into perspective.

Not our family and friends. But the Lord is always our companion, being next to us in our heart. Otherwise how do we get our karma? Who is with us, who is the witness?

Why overcomplicate this by positing the existence of some separate lord or entity? Again, humans live in a world of fantasy and fantasy things. The only lord I know of is myself. The most dearest and precious thing in my life. Indeed that is what the enlightened Risis of India say, “The self is the most beloved, everything is dearest only because the self is dear” Why should I deny my power to giving it all away to some fictitious being that was created in human imagination? That is like a child relying on Santa Clause to bring him presents.

#16

[QUOTE=Aksara;75150]What you are describing is not love in the real sense of love. When we act out of real love we do it for the benefit and happiness of someone else without consideration of our own interest. Fake love leads to disappointment and frustration.
You are saying that real love exists in dreams only. I don’t think so. But it is usually mixed with a certain portion of selfishness. The mother loves her child and she does everything to make it happy. She is prepared to even give up her life (maybe not every mother) for the sake of her beloved child. But there may also be some expectations of personal benefits, like hoping the child will increase the honor of the family. So it may not be completely pure.
Pure love is spiritual, it is an expression of the pure soul.[/QUOTE]

This ‘real love’ you talk about sounds like nothing more than a fiction to me, much like your ‘lord’. When we act for somebody else and their interests, there is always a self interest underlying it. Again it is the Risis that have said behind every human activity is self-interest. Not for themselves is the child dear, but it is dear only for the self. Not for the themselves is ones partner dear, but it is dear for only the self.

I have had a few people in my life tell me “I love you” and they also claim their love for me is pure and unselfish and they genuinely care about me. I have then asked them how do they feel around me, and they say “I feel so happy with you” I then ask, if you did not feel happy around me, would you love me? Most at this point start to flounder, because their myth of love starts to crumble. Why do I make them happy? Various reasons: I remind them of their ex-lover; they are attracted to me; I am good in bed; I share the same interests as them; I helped them out in a problem they were having; I fulfill their needs(physical or emotional) or I am just a damn good player.

On the internet you can find many guides on the art of making people fall in love with you. Say the right things, do the right things, create the feelings with them. If you can make them feel good, they will start to call it ‘love’

There is always a selfish interest underlying any kind of love. The mother loves her child because it is HER child. She does not love every child, only her child, because it is HERS. Just as we love our things because they belong to US. We love our cars, our property or our clothes because they are ours. If we are no longer attached to something we fall out of love. Yes, even mothers can fall out of love with their children when the attachment goes. Perhaps the child has dishonored the family that she feels it is better for her interests to abandon that child.

I have a Polish friend who was born disabled in Poland. Because he was born disabled his parents disowned him at birth. Initially, they wanted to get rid of him when he was a few weeks old by murdering him. If he was not disabled, would they have felt the same? No, they were embarrassed for their own sake that they had a disabled son. He was treated very badly all his life by his own parents and family. When he was a teenager they kicked him out of the house.

#17

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75155]I am justifying why selfishness is required if one wants success and power in life, the greatest success is the transformation into a god. Indeed, look at the life of many successful and powerful people, and you will see they did by following their own selfish interests. The managing directors and CEO’s of many companies have through their own hard work have become billionaires like Richard Branson etc These people have now become like gods of sorts to ordinary people, employing millions, influencing the media and world politics. They enjoy a life of luxury and can obtain anything they want. While, ordinary people simply dance to their tunes.

There are then the great spiritual leaders like Buddha etc who have followed their own selfish interests, retracted from society to find enlightenment and then founded their own religion. Countless yogis have followed the same path, dedicating their life to total self-transformation.

In fact anybody who has been important in our history has done so through selfish pursuit. Einstein locked himself up in his room for days and night for months working on his theory. Gandhi, dedicated himself to the pursuit of freedom and equality. Rosa Parks asserted her own independence by refusing to go the back of the bus.

It would seem from the above examples that selfishness is certainly nothing bad, but is the sign of independence and power. Those of who claim it will prosper through the dint of our dedication to our selfish pursuits. It is us who people will remember and obey. People themselves are insignificant. Nobody remembers most of them.[/QUOTE]

Nah… I work with some pretty powerful people (politicians) and they are not Gods they have all the same exact insecurities and annoyances as everybody else…. And some of them have more because they are afraid they’re going to lose it. I also don’t know of anyone that thinks they are… ok one of them may think he is but time will prove him very wrong

As to Selfishness being a virtue

Virtue is defined as

  1. Moral excellence; goodness; righteousness.
  2. Conformity of one’s life and conduct to moral and ethical principles; uprightness; rectitude.
  3. Chastity; virginity: to lose one’s virtue.
  4. A particular moral excellence. Compare cardinal virtues, natural virtue, and theological virtue.
  5. A good or admirable quality or property

I guess it would depend which definition you used and on who is doing the defining what society are they from and when they are doing or when did the do the defining

I really cannot argue against Siddhartha Gautama committing a selfish act by leaving his family and I have read some fairly selfish things written by Gandhi but then I am viewing this many years after the fact and from western society with a western education. But I still would not compare them to Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Hugo Chavez, Andrew Carnegie, Lyndon Banes Johnson or Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. I guess it all comes down to if you can define someone in totality as selfish and I am not sure anyone can. I guess the only question as it applies to Siddhartha Gautama and Gandhi is where they selfish or was the selfish act or selfish words just a small part of what they accomplished and was what Andrew Carnegie selfish when he was one of the robber barons or is that all forgotten when you build a few libraries. As to Einstein, I am not sure that is selfishness, it could be focus and a complete inability to multitask. I know people like that, they simply get so focused on an issue they cannot see or hear anything else and that I do not see as selfishness

As for politicians… I doubt you will ever find more than a couple that you can say were virtuous… but there are a lot you can call selfish and a few I think are the text book definitoin of a sociopath… but then maybe it is just me, I may just be too close to that one to judge fairly

#18

It’s all pretty relative. They are not gods, but command a lot of power and influence which most people do not have. To these more ordinary people they can be like gods. Many rich and powerful people are literally like gods to ordinary people. In India for example, some rich and powerful people are literally worshiped.

However, when I say god I mean in the Yogic sense, to unleash that unlimited power we have within ourselves. If I was able to achieive even half of the siddhis that Patanjali describes, I will most certainly be looked upon by others as a god. Heck, even party parlour tricks were enough for millions to regard Satya Sai Baba as a god.

As per Yoga we all have a god potential. In fact it is unanimous message of all mystical traditions, even Christian tradition, “Ye are all gods” But of course very few humans in our history have tried to tap it. Most of us just lose ourselves into the petty affairs of society(gossip, current affairs, games, rituals, politics, relationships) There are more people today worrying about when they are going to get their next rise in pay check, or their next bit of sex or booze, than their spiritual development. Mortals remain mortals because they are ignorant of their potential and do nothing to tap it.

As to Selfishness being a virtu

  1. A good or admirable quality or property

There you go. Selfishness is a good and admirable quality because it sets you apart from the rest as an independent soul. The more selfish you are, the more you will dedicate yourself to your own interests and goals. Otherwise, you will dampen it with concern and care for others.

I really cannot argue against Siddhartha Gautama committing a selfish act by leaving his family and I have read some fairly selfish things written by Gandhi but then I am viewing this many years after the fact and from western society with a western education. But I still would not compare them to Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Hugo Chavez, Andrew Carnegie, Lyndon Banes Johnson or Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. I guess it all comes down to if you can define someone in totality as selfish and I am not sure anyone can. I guess the only question as it applies to Siddhartha Gautama and Gandhi is where they selfish or was the selfish act or selfish words just a small part of what they accomplished and was what Andrew Carnegie selfish when he was one of the robber barons or is that all forgotten when you build a few libraries.

Simply put, all of these people dedicated themselves to their interests. Gautama dedicated himself to his own enlightenment; Gandhi dedicated himself to his values of freedom and equality; Richard Branson et al dedicated themselves to their own money, fame and power. Einstein dedicated himself to solving problems in physics. They all worked tirelessly to achieve their goals. Neither had time for people. In the end whatever they achieved was of benefit to others as well.

As to Einstein, I am not sure that is selfishness, it could be focus and a complete inability to multitask. I know people like that, they simply get so focused on an issue they cannot see or hear anything else and that I do not see as selfishness

The ability to completely focus and dedicate yourself single mindedly and whole heatedly to something is the secret of any kind of success. Indeed, it is exactly what Yoga prescribes for success in Yoga: One-pointedness. It is what unlocks the unlimited power of your mind.

#19

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75163]Simply put, all of these people dedicated themselves to their interests. Gautama dedicated himself to his own enlightenment; Gandhi dedicated himself to his values of freedom and equality; Richard Branson et al dedicated themselves to their own money, fame and power. Einstein dedicated himself to solving problems in physics. They all worked tirelessly to achieve their goals. Neither had time for people. In the end whatever they achieved was of benefit to others as well.[/QUOTE]

And that’s why they are important people and we honor and respect them. Save yourself first before you try to save others. For that purpose you have to focus on yourself, on your own enlightenment, your own values and character, but I wouldn’t call that selfishness. It’s just the sober analysis that at the moment you are not able to substantially contribute to the happiness of others nor even to your own. And you are not interested in this superficial kind of happiness you can see in this world, which you consider more or less cheating. If that is your idea of selfishness then I agree with you: It is good, it is necessary, and there is no other way to achieve anything. You have to focus on yourself and find yourself.

#20

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75159]This ‘real love’ you talk about sounds like nothing more than a fiction to me, much like your ‘lord’. When we act for somebody else and their interests, there is always a self interest underlying it. Again it is the Risis that have said behind every human activity is self-interest. Not for themselves is the child dear, but it is dear only for the self. Not for the themselves is ones partner dear, but it is dear for only the self.[/QUOTE]

Behind every human activity is self-interest, because the human being has a human mind and a human body. As long as you identify with these you are conditioned by them. Real love exists on the level of the pure soul only. But as the existence of the soul shines through its material coverings we can see reflections of real love in all created beings. However, it cannot be pure love, it is always mixed with selfishness.