Selfishness is a virtue

Spirituality
#21

We seem to be in agreement on my idea of selfishness then and the necessity of it. In practice it is difficult to implement, because we are all embroiled in the affairs of the world of people, simply because we live in the world. The spiritual traditions say that we must live in this world and not be of it. In practice it a lot more difficult to do. We all get involved with people, their politics, their rituals, traditions, gossip and games - it is very easy to, even many gurus today fall into the trap.

But as the existence of the soul shines through its material coverings we can see reflections of real love in all created beings. However, it cannot be pure love, it is always mixed with selfishness.

What is this pure love? What does pure love mean? How does one having pure love behave?

If there really are pure loving beings in this universe, then they seem to allow suffering to take place. They allow holocausts to happen, world wars, famines, disasters etc. I am not sure the word ‘love’ is right to describe such beings. If you were purely loving how could you tolerate another person’s suffering? If you had the power to end the suffering of somebody, then why wouldn’t you?

The fact is a lot of evil happens in our world and no super loving beings intervene to stop it. The reason for this can be

  1. There are no super loving beings in existence
  2. Super loving beings do not care about humans
  3. There is no such thing as love

The reality I think is best expressed in the Vedic saying, “As animals are food for humans, humans are food for the gods” The gods do not care about humans or certainly do not attach the same significance to them as humans attach to themselves. To them a holocaust or a world war is perhaps a little blip on their radar.

The only real love I can think of and I can see blatant evidence for it: is self-love. We love ourselves the most. It is so self-evident, even in the smallest creature like ants, if you try to end its life, it struggles and fights against you. It is seen in humans how quickly we jump into survival mode when our life is under threat. How under those circumstances we will do anything to survive, even kill. Nobody really loves anybody else. We love only ourselves.

The gods’s love themselves that is why they become gods. They are leaps and bounds above us in every way. We are insignificant to them. To become a god is the greatest attainment. God’s do not have to be humble. Surely, if I could reduce you to vapor in a blink of an eye, I would not have anything to fear from you. I would treat you just as you would treat an animal. At best a pet, and at worst food. Humans themselves feel that they must bow in the presence of a god.

#22

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75163]It’s all pretty relative. They are not gods, but command a lot of power and influence which most people do not have. To these more ordinary people they can be like gods. Many rich and powerful people are literally like gods to ordinary people. In India for example, some rich and powerful people are literally worshiped.

However, when I say god I mean in the Yogic sense, to unleash that unlimited power we have within ourselves. If I was able to achieive even half of the siddhis that Patanjali describes, I will most certainly be looked upon by others as a god. Heck, even party parlour tricks were enough for millions to regard Satya Sai Baba as a god.

As per Yoga we all have a god potential. In fact it is unanimous message of all mystical traditions, even Christian tradition, “Ye are all gods” But of course very few humans in our history have tried to tap it. Most of us just lose ourselves into the petty affairs of society(gossip, current affairs, games, rituals, politics, relationships) There are more people today worrying about when they are going to get their next rise in pay check, or their next bit of sex or booze, than their spiritual development. Mortals remain mortals because they are ignorant of their potential and do nothing to tap it.

There you go. Selfishness is a good and admirable quality because it sets you apart from the rest as an independent soul. The more selfish you are, the more you will dedicate yourself to your own interests and goals. Otherwise, you will dampen it with concern and care for others.

Simply put, all of these people dedicated themselves to their interests. Gautama dedicated himself to his own enlightenment; Gandhi dedicated himself to his values of freedom and equality; Richard Branson et al dedicated themselves to their own money, fame and power. Einstein dedicated himself to solving problems in physics. They all worked tirelessly to achieve their goals. Neither had time for people. In the end whatever they achieved was of benefit to others as well.

The ability to completely focus and dedicate yourself single mindedly and whole heatedly to something is the secret of any kind of success. Indeed, it is exactly what Yoga prescribes for success in Yoga: One-pointedness. It is what unlocks the unlimited power of your mind.[/QUOTE]

After thinking about this for a bit I have come to the conclusion that selfishness in and of itself is not a virtue, however it could lead to it.

Did the original selfish act become something virtuous and using the example of Gandhi or Siddhartha Gautama I think we can say yes but did the selfish act lead to something virtuous in the case of Andrew Carnegie? That is a bit tougher to answer. He was a robber baron and he got a lot of money through the suffering and abuse of a lot of people but he did eventually start building libraries to help educate people. Or did a selfish act lead to something virtuous in the case of a Pol Pot? I would say no.

So I guess from where I am coming from on this it is not is Selfishness a virtue but can selfishness lead to virtuousness. But I should also add that I do not feel that Happiness is a virtue either. Again I feel it is more to does happiness lead to virtuousness. Happiness in an individual can also come from committing evil, violent or selfish acts. As for patience I do not think that is necessarily a virtue either because one can be patiently waiting for revenge

So I do not think selfishness is a virtue, but I don?t think it is necessarily a bad thing either

#23

If being of yourself is not virtuous then u should all give yourselves up!! And become self less or without self!
U all see the word self fish with evil eyes!
Bahahaha
A self ish person is not neccasarily greedy,a robber,mean, it Roentgen even mean that person is more inclined not to share. It means they worry about their own well being before others.
A lone wolf doesn’t run with the pack.
I am extremly self fish meaning I am always conscious of what I need,what I want,and what I can do. Yet I take care of 4 people selfless ly. And it would be my downfall if I did not balance the selfless with the selfish. For people will take everything from you and leave u to die without knowing it. Good selfless people will. So remember.
Balance the ability to be of self and without self.
Know that. ^ that’s the proper meaning.
And that an unbalanced extreme can be good or bad.
The right thing in the wrong way is wrong. The wrong thing in the right way is right.

#24

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75182]What is this pure love? What does pure love mean? How does one having pure love behave?

If there really are pure loving beings in this universe, then they seem to allow suffering to take place. They allow holocausts to happen, world wars, famines, disasters etc. I am not sure the word ‘love’ is right to describe such beings. If you were purely loving how could you tolerate another person’s suffering? If you had the power to end the suffering of somebody, then why wouldn’t you?

The fact is a lot of evil happens in our world and no super loving beings intervene to stop it. The reason for this can be

  1. There are no super loving beings in existence
  2. Super loving beings do not care about humans
  3. There is no such thing as love[/QUOTE]

Pure love means to act out of a spontaneous feeling of affection for the pleasure of your object of love without consideration of your own benefit, and not even calculating if you will ever receive anything in return.
Pure love is the natural spontaneous feeling of the pure soul. A pure soul is a person who is not identified with his or her material body and mind, but is firmly established in his or her existence as an eternal spiritual soul. I don’t know if there are any souls at the moment in the universe who are on the level of complete purity, but there have been many in the past. History tells us about them and they have left their example and message for us to follow.
Suffering can be stopped only by the individual decision of the individual soul. Everyone of us creates his or her own mixture of enjoyment and suffering in this world. And we are all determined to continue on that path. The pure soul can try to convince us to give up our path of suffering, but it is the free choice of each soul to take good advice or not.
The soul is not part of this material, relative world, therefore it can never find lasting happiness here. Its nature is spiritual and it is part of spiritual or absolute truth.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate

?Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this non-dual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan.? (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.11)

Absolute truth has these three aspects, brahman, the all pervading spiritual existence, paramatma the localized representation in the heart of everyone and bhagavan, the supreme Lord. Different spiritual paths lead to realization of different aspects of that truth. One has to give up ones plan to enjoy the material world and follow an authentic path with determination. Spiritual life means to live in harmony with the whole existence or absolute truth, and material life means to live in disharmony. Material enjoyment includes material suffering, because everyone of us has his or her own plans of enjoyment and these plans are meant to be in conflict with each other. The result must be envy, greed and anger, the root causes for all suffering.

#25

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75182]The gods’s love themselves that is why they become gods. They are leaps and bounds above us in every way. We are insignificant to them. To become a god is the greatest attainment. God’s do not have to be humble. Surely, if I could reduce you to vapor in a blink of an eye, I would not have anything to fear from you. I would treat you just as you would treat an animal. At best a pet, and at worst food. Humans themselves feel that they must bow in the presence of a god.[/QUOTE]

What is a god? What is your understanding of it?

#26

[QUOTE=Aksara;75260]Pure love means to act out of a spontaneous feeling of affection for the pleasure of your object of love without consideration of your own benefit, and not even calculating if you will ever receive anything in return.
Pure love is the natural spontaneous feeling of the pure soul. A pure soul is a person who is not identified with his or her material body and mind, but is firmly established in his or her existence as an eternal spiritual soul. I don’t know if there are any souls at the moment in the universe who are on the level of complete purity, but there have been many in the past. History tells us about them and they have left their example and message for us to follow.
Suffering can be stopped only by the individual decision of the individual soul. Everyone of us creates his or her own mixture of enjoyment and suffering in this world. And we are all determined to continue on that path. The pure soul can try to convince us to give up our path of suffering, but it is the free choice of each soul to take good advice or not.
The soul is not part of this material, relative world, therefore it can never find lasting happiness here. Its nature is spiritual and it is part of spiritual or absolute truth.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate

“Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this non-dual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan.” (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.11)

Absolute truth has these three aspects, brahman, the all pervading spiritual existence, paramatma the localized representation in the heart of everyone and bhagavan, the supreme Lord. Different spiritual paths lead to realization of different aspects of that truth. One has to give up ones plan to enjoy the material world and follow an authentic path with determination. Spiritual life means to live in harmony with the whole existence or absolute truth, and material life means to live in disharmony. Material enjoyment includes material suffering, because everyone of us has his or her own plans of enjoyment and these plans are meant to be in conflict with each other. The result must be envy, greed and anger, the root causes for all suffering.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry based on all the above it still sounds love is a fiction. Whatever you are saying are just beliefs, you still have not given clear proof such thing as “'pure love” exists. Nor does it help your case to say beings who have pure love are currently inabsentia in the universe lol

#27

bahahaha!
Love.
Here, is the definition of Love. Love is not an emotion! <<<<
The Common mistake is to think Love is an emotion. What emotion is Love? Exactly. The different kinds of feelings all have names already. Thus already having a name, non of them can be called love. Love is not a feeling. It is a WAY. like the tao.
Thus know the way of love.
oh! ps. “pure” love is the same as saying “perfect” love. The problem with perfection. Perfection means never being imperfect. A moment of imperfection can break years of perfection.

Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

#28

Hope that helps :slight_smile:

oh and yes. get to the heart of things. all of existence is being played out in the heart dont you know? the mind only reflects it.

#29

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75274]I am sorry based on all the above it still sounds love is a fiction. Whatever you are saying are just beliefs, you still have not given clear proof such thing as “'pure love” exists. Nor does it help your case to say beings who have pure love are currently inabsentia in the universe lol[/QUOTE]

The proof is given too everyone individually, some may see it or accept it while others don’t. You yourself are longing for true love and you are frustrated with the attitude of people around you, that’s why you started this thread. You have to look inside to see this truth in you. And if you have this need then other souls also have it, because we are all the same. However, you won’t find water in the desert. That doesn’t mean that a thing like water doesn’t exist, you are just looking in the wrong place. Similarly, true love cannot be found in the material mind and ego. It is the nature of the pure soul only.

#30

Material. All of reality has substance.
Ego. That which is made up of self identifications.
Soul. That which is the foundation of the mind.
Soul=heart
Get to the heart of things. All spiritual progress is made within the heart.

To say this as simply as i can. Concentrate on thoughts and you will fly. concentrate on desires and you will fall. yes. the heart is the root of the mind. So in order to purify the mind, in order to increase the quality of thoughts. you must increase the quality of your feelings. " he who is master of his feelings/heart is master of his mind.

#31

[QUOTE=Aksara;75261]What is a god? What is your understanding of it?[/QUOTE]

A god to me is a liberated being, who has attained the self-realization of Yoga and unleashed their unlimited god potential. Such people are gods.

But I also use the term more loosely to describe beings who have attained very high levels of spiritual development and gone beyond human mortals. Such beings would be able to perform any of the siddhis Patanjali describes.

#32

What is a god to some one. and a god to someone els. matters not. for these are just more self identifications. what matters is what god IS.

#33

get rid of the self identifications! free the heart of its ensnarement and you free the mind in the process!

#34

[QUOTE=Aksara;75316]The proof is given too everyone individually, some may see it or accept it while others don’t. You yourself are longing for true love and you are frustrated with the attitude of people around you, that’s why you started this thread. You have to look inside to see this truth in you. And if you have this need then other souls also have it, because we are all the same. However, you won’t find water in the desert. That doesn’t mean that a thing like water doesn’t exist, you are just looking in the wrong place. Similarly, true love cannot be found in the material mind and ego. It is the nature of the pure soul only.[/QUOTE]

Come on, that is a cop out lol
I am starting to get less frustrated with the attitude of people around me, and coming to accept that it is rather my previous attitude of expecting something from them or expecting them to be loving to me that was at fault. I am mature enough to realize no such thing as love exists, there is only selfishness or self-love if you want to call it. So people are only important in my life insofar as they are useful to me, otherwise I don’t need to know them.

Actually, accepting ones loneliness in life is one of the pillars of existential therapy. Existential therapy is accepting the basic facts of life: namely summed up as selfishness. Somewhat similar to how the Buddhists accept change and impermanence as a part of life. We create our suffering when we do not accept these facts of life. This is why all this ‘love’ talk is just feeding fantasy - it actually ends up creating more problems for people who believe in it.

#35

[QUOTE=Avatar186;75346]What is a god to some one. and a god to someone els. matters not. for these are just more self identifications. what matters is what god IS.[/QUOTE]

Depends what you mean by god. To say god ‘is’ really makes no difference to our life. What matters is how much of that godly power you can tap. I am not here to serve some god, I am here to become a god myself. Anybody else who wants to spend their life in servitude to god can be my guest. They will remain mortals.

#36

God "is"
When you become like God. You will be as he is. Thus you will say, "I am"
I man with power is not God. He is a man with power.
yet I do agree. Even Jesus was said to rule by power.
I do not seek to become God. I seek immortality. Yet I know in attaining this,what I consider “myself” will dissolve. “I” will not cease to exist. But my personality will give way to what is permanent. Your personality is not permanent my friend.

You can gain much power. But to enter the eternal you must reflect it
To become the unchangeable you must become like that which is already unchangeable.

#37

Though it is true. The way that I speak is not the only way to go about things. A am a firm believer that power is needed. In words I would be a shakta. Control the power in the right way, and it will transform the mind and body.

#38

So if I may ask. What path are you taking to accomplish your goal?

#39

I too. Have no time for imaginary perspectives. Knowing is half the battle. Power comes with accomplishment.

#40

[QUOTE=Avatar186;75360]God "is"
When you become like God. You will be as he is. Thus you will say, "I am"
I man with power is not God. He is a man with power.
yet I do agree. Even Jesus was said to rule by power.
I do not seek to become God. I seek immortality. Yet I know in attaining this,what I consider “myself” will dissolve. “I” will not cease to exist. But my personality will give way to what is permanent. Your personality is not permanent my friend.

You can gain much power. But to enter the eternal you must reflect it
To become the unchangeable you must become like that which is already unchangeable.[/QUOTE]

“Once you can say with confidence born from direct experience: ‘I am the world, the world is myself’, you are free from desire and fear on the one hand and become totally responsible for the world on the other. The senseless sorrow of mankind becomes your sole concern.”~ Nisargadatta