Selfishness is a virtue

Spirituality
#16

[QUOTE=Aksara;75150]What you are describing is not love in the real sense of love. When we act out of real love we do it for the benefit and happiness of someone else without consideration of our own interest. Fake love leads to disappointment and frustration.
You are saying that real love exists in dreams only. I don’t think so. But it is usually mixed with a certain portion of selfishness. The mother loves her child and she does everything to make it happy. She is prepared to even give up her life (maybe not every mother) for the sake of her beloved child. But there may also be some expectations of personal benefits, like hoping the child will increase the honor of the family. So it may not be completely pure.
Pure love is spiritual, it is an expression of the pure soul.[/QUOTE]

This ‘real love’ you talk about sounds like nothing more than a fiction to me, much like your ‘lord’. When we act for somebody else and their interests, there is always a self interest underlying it. Again it is the Risis that have said behind every human activity is self-interest. Not for themselves is the child dear, but it is dear only for the self. Not for the themselves is ones partner dear, but it is dear for only the self.

I have had a few people in my life tell me “I love you” and they also claim their love for me is pure and unselfish and they genuinely care about me. I have then asked them how do they feel around me, and they say “I feel so happy with you” I then ask, if you did not feel happy around me, would you love me? Most at this point start to flounder, because their myth of love starts to crumble. Why do I make them happy? Various reasons: I remind them of their ex-lover; they are attracted to me; I am good in bed; I share the same interests as them; I helped them out in a problem they were having; I fulfill their needs(physical or emotional) or I am just a damn good player.

On the internet you can find many guides on the art of making people fall in love with you. Say the right things, do the right things, create the feelings with them. If you can make them feel good, they will start to call it ‘love’

There is always a selfish interest underlying any kind of love. The mother loves her child because it is HER child. She does not love every child, only her child, because it is HERS. Just as we love our things because they belong to US. We love our cars, our property or our clothes because they are ours. If we are no longer attached to something we fall out of love. Yes, even mothers can fall out of love with their children when the attachment goes. Perhaps the child has dishonored the family that she feels it is better for her interests to abandon that child.

I have a Polish friend who was born disabled in Poland. Because he was born disabled his parents disowned him at birth. Initially, they wanted to get rid of him when he was a few weeks old by murdering him. If he was not disabled, would they have felt the same? No, they were embarrassed for their own sake that they had a disabled son. He was treated very badly all his life by his own parents and family. When he was a teenager they kicked him out of the house.

#17

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75155]I am justifying why selfishness is required if one wants success and power in life, the greatest success is the transformation into a god. Indeed, look at the life of many successful and powerful people, and you will see they did by following their own selfish interests. The managing directors and CEO’s of many companies have through their own hard work have become billionaires like Richard Branson etc These people have now become like gods of sorts to ordinary people, employing millions, influencing the media and world politics. They enjoy a life of luxury and can obtain anything they want. While, ordinary people simply dance to their tunes.

There are then the great spiritual leaders like Buddha etc who have followed their own selfish interests, retracted from society to find enlightenment and then founded their own religion. Countless yogis have followed the same path, dedicating their life to total self-transformation.

In fact anybody who has been important in our history has done so through selfish pursuit. Einstein locked himself up in his room for days and night for months working on his theory. Gandhi, dedicated himself to the pursuit of freedom and equality. Rosa Parks asserted her own independence by refusing to go the back of the bus.

It would seem from the above examples that selfishness is certainly nothing bad, but is the sign of independence and power. Those of who claim it will prosper through the dint of our dedication to our selfish pursuits. It is us who people will remember and obey. People themselves are insignificant. Nobody remembers most of them.[/QUOTE]

Nah… I work with some pretty powerful people (politicians) and they are not Gods they have all the same exact insecurities and annoyances as everybody else…. And some of them have more because they are afraid they’re going to lose it. I also don’t know of anyone that thinks they are… ok one of them may think he is but time will prove him very wrong

As to Selfishness being a virtue

Virtue is defined as

  1. Moral excellence; goodness; righteousness.
  2. Conformity of one’s life and conduct to moral and ethical principles; uprightness; rectitude.
  3. Chastity; virginity: to lose one’s virtue.
  4. A particular moral excellence. Compare cardinal virtues, natural virtue, and theological virtue.
  5. A good or admirable quality or property

I guess it would depend which definition you used and on who is doing the defining what society are they from and when they are doing or when did the do the defining

I really cannot argue against Siddhartha Gautama committing a selfish act by leaving his family and I have read some fairly selfish things written by Gandhi but then I am viewing this many years after the fact and from western society with a western education. But I still would not compare them to Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Hugo Chavez, Andrew Carnegie, Lyndon Banes Johnson or Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. I guess it all comes down to if you can define someone in totality as selfish and I am not sure anyone can. I guess the only question as it applies to Siddhartha Gautama and Gandhi is where they selfish or was the selfish act or selfish words just a small part of what they accomplished and was what Andrew Carnegie selfish when he was one of the robber barons or is that all forgotten when you build a few libraries. As to Einstein, I am not sure that is selfishness, it could be focus and a complete inability to multitask. I know people like that, they simply get so focused on an issue they cannot see or hear anything else and that I do not see as selfishness

As for politicians… I doubt you will ever find more than a couple that you can say were virtuous… but there are a lot you can call selfish and a few I think are the text book definitoin of a sociopath… but then maybe it is just me, I may just be too close to that one to judge fairly

#18

It’s all pretty relative. They are not gods, but command a lot of power and influence which most people do not have. To these more ordinary people they can be like gods. Many rich and powerful people are literally like gods to ordinary people. In India for example, some rich and powerful people are literally worshiped.

However, when I say god I mean in the Yogic sense, to unleash that unlimited power we have within ourselves. If I was able to achieive even half of the siddhis that Patanjali describes, I will most certainly be looked upon by others as a god. Heck, even party parlour tricks were enough for millions to regard Satya Sai Baba as a god.

As per Yoga we all have a god potential. In fact it is unanimous message of all mystical traditions, even Christian tradition, “Ye are all gods” But of course very few humans in our history have tried to tap it. Most of us just lose ourselves into the petty affairs of society(gossip, current affairs, games, rituals, politics, relationships) There are more people today worrying about when they are going to get their next rise in pay check, or their next bit of sex or booze, than their spiritual development. Mortals remain mortals because they are ignorant of their potential and do nothing to tap it.

As to Selfishness being a virtu

  1. A good or admirable quality or property

There you go. Selfishness is a good and admirable quality because it sets you apart from the rest as an independent soul. The more selfish you are, the more you will dedicate yourself to your own interests and goals. Otherwise, you will dampen it with concern and care for others.

I really cannot argue against Siddhartha Gautama committing a selfish act by leaving his family and I have read some fairly selfish things written by Gandhi but then I am viewing this many years after the fact and from western society with a western education. But I still would not compare them to Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Hugo Chavez, Andrew Carnegie, Lyndon Banes Johnson or Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. I guess it all comes down to if you can define someone in totality as selfish and I am not sure anyone can. I guess the only question as it applies to Siddhartha Gautama and Gandhi is where they selfish or was the selfish act or selfish words just a small part of what they accomplished and was what Andrew Carnegie selfish when he was one of the robber barons or is that all forgotten when you build a few libraries.

Simply put, all of these people dedicated themselves to their interests. Gautama dedicated himself to his own enlightenment; Gandhi dedicated himself to his values of freedom and equality; Richard Branson et al dedicated themselves to their own money, fame and power. Einstein dedicated himself to solving problems in physics. They all worked tirelessly to achieve their goals. Neither had time for people. In the end whatever they achieved was of benefit to others as well.

As to Einstein, I am not sure that is selfishness, it could be focus and a complete inability to multitask. I know people like that, they simply get so focused on an issue they cannot see or hear anything else and that I do not see as selfishness

The ability to completely focus and dedicate yourself single mindedly and whole heatedly to something is the secret of any kind of success. Indeed, it is exactly what Yoga prescribes for success in Yoga: One-pointedness. It is what unlocks the unlimited power of your mind.

#19

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75163]Simply put, all of these people dedicated themselves to their interests. Gautama dedicated himself to his own enlightenment; Gandhi dedicated himself to his values of freedom and equality; Richard Branson et al dedicated themselves to their own money, fame and power. Einstein dedicated himself to solving problems in physics. They all worked tirelessly to achieve their goals. Neither had time for people. In the end whatever they achieved was of benefit to others as well.[/QUOTE]

And that’s why they are important people and we honor and respect them. Save yourself first before you try to save others. For that purpose you have to focus on yourself, on your own enlightenment, your own values and character, but I wouldn’t call that selfishness. It’s just the sober analysis that at the moment you are not able to substantially contribute to the happiness of others nor even to your own. And you are not interested in this superficial kind of happiness you can see in this world, which you consider more or less cheating. If that is your idea of selfishness then I agree with you: It is good, it is necessary, and there is no other way to achieve anything. You have to focus on yourself and find yourself.

#20

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75159]This ‘real love’ you talk about sounds like nothing more than a fiction to me, much like your ‘lord’. When we act for somebody else and their interests, there is always a self interest underlying it. Again it is the Risis that have said behind every human activity is self-interest. Not for themselves is the child dear, but it is dear only for the self. Not for the themselves is ones partner dear, but it is dear for only the self.[/QUOTE]

Behind every human activity is self-interest, because the human being has a human mind and a human body. As long as you identify with these you are conditioned by them. Real love exists on the level of the pure soul only. But as the existence of the soul shines through its material coverings we can see reflections of real love in all created beings. However, it cannot be pure love, it is always mixed with selfishness.

#21

We seem to be in agreement on my idea of selfishness then and the necessity of it. In practice it is difficult to implement, because we are all embroiled in the affairs of the world of people, simply because we live in the world. The spiritual traditions say that we must live in this world and not be of it. In practice it a lot more difficult to do. We all get involved with people, their politics, their rituals, traditions, gossip and games - it is very easy to, even many gurus today fall into the trap.

But as the existence of the soul shines through its material coverings we can see reflections of real love in all created beings. However, it cannot be pure love, it is always mixed with selfishness.

What is this pure love? What does pure love mean? How does one having pure love behave?

If there really are pure loving beings in this universe, then they seem to allow suffering to take place. They allow holocausts to happen, world wars, famines, disasters etc. I am not sure the word ‘love’ is right to describe such beings. If you were purely loving how could you tolerate another person’s suffering? If you had the power to end the suffering of somebody, then why wouldn’t you?

The fact is a lot of evil happens in our world and no super loving beings intervene to stop it. The reason for this can be

  1. There are no super loving beings in existence
  2. Super loving beings do not care about humans
  3. There is no such thing as love

The reality I think is best expressed in the Vedic saying, “As animals are food for humans, humans are food for the gods” The gods do not care about humans or certainly do not attach the same significance to them as humans attach to themselves. To them a holocaust or a world war is perhaps a little blip on their radar.

The only real love I can think of and I can see blatant evidence for it: is self-love. We love ourselves the most. It is so self-evident, even in the smallest creature like ants, if you try to end its life, it struggles and fights against you. It is seen in humans how quickly we jump into survival mode when our life is under threat. How under those circumstances we will do anything to survive, even kill. Nobody really loves anybody else. We love only ourselves.

The gods’s love themselves that is why they become gods. They are leaps and bounds above us in every way. We are insignificant to them. To become a god is the greatest attainment. God’s do not have to be humble. Surely, if I could reduce you to vapor in a blink of an eye, I would not have anything to fear from you. I would treat you just as you would treat an animal. At best a pet, and at worst food. Humans themselves feel that they must bow in the presence of a god.

#22

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75163]It’s all pretty relative. They are not gods, but command a lot of power and influence which most people do not have. To these more ordinary people they can be like gods. Many rich and powerful people are literally like gods to ordinary people. In India for example, some rich and powerful people are literally worshiped.

However, when I say god I mean in the Yogic sense, to unleash that unlimited power we have within ourselves. If I was able to achieive even half of the siddhis that Patanjali describes, I will most certainly be looked upon by others as a god. Heck, even party parlour tricks were enough for millions to regard Satya Sai Baba as a god.

As per Yoga we all have a god potential. In fact it is unanimous message of all mystical traditions, even Christian tradition, “Ye are all gods” But of course very few humans in our history have tried to tap it. Most of us just lose ourselves into the petty affairs of society(gossip, current affairs, games, rituals, politics, relationships) There are more people today worrying about when they are going to get their next rise in pay check, or their next bit of sex or booze, than their spiritual development. Mortals remain mortals because they are ignorant of their potential and do nothing to tap it.

There you go. Selfishness is a good and admirable quality because it sets you apart from the rest as an independent soul. The more selfish you are, the more you will dedicate yourself to your own interests and goals. Otherwise, you will dampen it with concern and care for others.

Simply put, all of these people dedicated themselves to their interests. Gautama dedicated himself to his own enlightenment; Gandhi dedicated himself to his values of freedom and equality; Richard Branson et al dedicated themselves to their own money, fame and power. Einstein dedicated himself to solving problems in physics. They all worked tirelessly to achieve their goals. Neither had time for people. In the end whatever they achieved was of benefit to others as well.

The ability to completely focus and dedicate yourself single mindedly and whole heatedly to something is the secret of any kind of success. Indeed, it is exactly what Yoga prescribes for success in Yoga: One-pointedness. It is what unlocks the unlimited power of your mind.[/QUOTE]

After thinking about this for a bit I have come to the conclusion that selfishness in and of itself is not a virtue, however it could lead to it.

Did the original selfish act become something virtuous and using the example of Gandhi or Siddhartha Gautama I think we can say yes but did the selfish act lead to something virtuous in the case of Andrew Carnegie? That is a bit tougher to answer. He was a robber baron and he got a lot of money through the suffering and abuse of a lot of people but he did eventually start building libraries to help educate people. Or did a selfish act lead to something virtuous in the case of a Pol Pot? I would say no.

So I guess from where I am coming from on this it is not is Selfishness a virtue but can selfishness lead to virtuousness. But I should also add that I do not feel that Happiness is a virtue either. Again I feel it is more to does happiness lead to virtuousness. Happiness in an individual can also come from committing evil, violent or selfish acts. As for patience I do not think that is necessarily a virtue either because one can be patiently waiting for revenge

So I do not think selfishness is a virtue, but I don?t think it is necessarily a bad thing either

#23

If being of yourself is not virtuous then u should all give yourselves up!! And become self less or without self!
U all see the word self fish with evil eyes!
Bahahaha
A self ish person is not neccasarily greedy,a robber,mean, it Roentgen even mean that person is more inclined not to share. It means they worry about their own well being before others.
A lone wolf doesn’t run with the pack.
I am extremly self fish meaning I am always conscious of what I need,what I want,and what I can do. Yet I take care of 4 people selfless ly. And it would be my downfall if I did not balance the selfless with the selfish. For people will take everything from you and leave u to die without knowing it. Good selfless people will. So remember.
Balance the ability to be of self and without self.
Know that. ^ that’s the proper meaning.
And that an unbalanced extreme can be good or bad.
The right thing in the wrong way is wrong. The wrong thing in the right way is right.

#24

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75182]What is this pure love? What does pure love mean? How does one having pure love behave?

If there really are pure loving beings in this universe, then they seem to allow suffering to take place. They allow holocausts to happen, world wars, famines, disasters etc. I am not sure the word ‘love’ is right to describe such beings. If you were purely loving how could you tolerate another person’s suffering? If you had the power to end the suffering of somebody, then why wouldn’t you?

The fact is a lot of evil happens in our world and no super loving beings intervene to stop it. The reason for this can be

  1. There are no super loving beings in existence
  2. Super loving beings do not care about humans
  3. There is no such thing as love[/QUOTE]

Pure love means to act out of a spontaneous feeling of affection for the pleasure of your object of love without consideration of your own benefit, and not even calculating if you will ever receive anything in return.
Pure love is the natural spontaneous feeling of the pure soul. A pure soul is a person who is not identified with his or her material body and mind, but is firmly established in his or her existence as an eternal spiritual soul. I don’t know if there are any souls at the moment in the universe who are on the level of complete purity, but there have been many in the past. History tells us about them and they have left their example and message for us to follow.
Suffering can be stopped only by the individual decision of the individual soul. Everyone of us creates his or her own mixture of enjoyment and suffering in this world. And we are all determined to continue on that path. The pure soul can try to convince us to give up our path of suffering, but it is the free choice of each soul to take good advice or not.
The soul is not part of this material, relative world, therefore it can never find lasting happiness here. Its nature is spiritual and it is part of spiritual or absolute truth.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate

?Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this non-dual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan.? (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.11)

Absolute truth has these three aspects, brahman, the all pervading spiritual existence, paramatma the localized representation in the heart of everyone and bhagavan, the supreme Lord. Different spiritual paths lead to realization of different aspects of that truth. One has to give up ones plan to enjoy the material world and follow an authentic path with determination. Spiritual life means to live in harmony with the whole existence or absolute truth, and material life means to live in disharmony. Material enjoyment includes material suffering, because everyone of us has his or her own plans of enjoyment and these plans are meant to be in conflict with each other. The result must be envy, greed and anger, the root causes for all suffering.

#25

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75182]The gods’s love themselves that is why they become gods. They are leaps and bounds above us in every way. We are insignificant to them. To become a god is the greatest attainment. God’s do not have to be humble. Surely, if I could reduce you to vapor in a blink of an eye, I would not have anything to fear from you. I would treat you just as you would treat an animal. At best a pet, and at worst food. Humans themselves feel that they must bow in the presence of a god.[/QUOTE]

What is a god? What is your understanding of it?

#26

[QUOTE=Aksara;75260]Pure love means to act out of a spontaneous feeling of affection for the pleasure of your object of love without consideration of your own benefit, and not even calculating if you will ever receive anything in return.
Pure love is the natural spontaneous feeling of the pure soul. A pure soul is a person who is not identified with his or her material body and mind, but is firmly established in his or her existence as an eternal spiritual soul. I don’t know if there are any souls at the moment in the universe who are on the level of complete purity, but there have been many in the past. History tells us about them and they have left their example and message for us to follow.
Suffering can be stopped only by the individual decision of the individual soul. Everyone of us creates his or her own mixture of enjoyment and suffering in this world. And we are all determined to continue on that path. The pure soul can try to convince us to give up our path of suffering, but it is the free choice of each soul to take good advice or not.
The soul is not part of this material, relative world, therefore it can never find lasting happiness here. Its nature is spiritual and it is part of spiritual or absolute truth.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate

“Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this non-dual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan.” (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.11)

Absolute truth has these three aspects, brahman, the all pervading spiritual existence, paramatma the localized representation in the heart of everyone and bhagavan, the supreme Lord. Different spiritual paths lead to realization of different aspects of that truth. One has to give up ones plan to enjoy the material world and follow an authentic path with determination. Spiritual life means to live in harmony with the whole existence or absolute truth, and material life means to live in disharmony. Material enjoyment includes material suffering, because everyone of us has his or her own plans of enjoyment and these plans are meant to be in conflict with each other. The result must be envy, greed and anger, the root causes for all suffering.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry based on all the above it still sounds love is a fiction. Whatever you are saying are just beliefs, you still have not given clear proof such thing as “'pure love” exists. Nor does it help your case to say beings who have pure love are currently inabsentia in the universe lol

#27

bahahaha!
Love.
Here, is the definition of Love. Love is not an emotion! <<<<
The Common mistake is to think Love is an emotion. What emotion is Love? Exactly. The different kinds of feelings all have names already. Thus already having a name, non of them can be called love. Love is not a feeling. It is a WAY. like the tao.
Thus know the way of love.
oh! ps. “pure” love is the same as saying “perfect” love. The problem with perfection. Perfection means never being imperfect. A moment of imperfection can break years of perfection.

Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

#28

Hope that helps :slight_smile:

oh and yes. get to the heart of things. all of existence is being played out in the heart dont you know? the mind only reflects it.

#29

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75274]I am sorry based on all the above it still sounds love is a fiction. Whatever you are saying are just beliefs, you still have not given clear proof such thing as “'pure love” exists. Nor does it help your case to say beings who have pure love are currently inabsentia in the universe lol[/QUOTE]

The proof is given too everyone individually, some may see it or accept it while others don’t. You yourself are longing for true love and you are frustrated with the attitude of people around you, that’s why you started this thread. You have to look inside to see this truth in you. And if you have this need then other souls also have it, because we are all the same. However, you won’t find water in the desert. That doesn’t mean that a thing like water doesn’t exist, you are just looking in the wrong place. Similarly, true love cannot be found in the material mind and ego. It is the nature of the pure soul only.

#30

Material. All of reality has substance.
Ego. That which is made up of self identifications.
Soul. That which is the foundation of the mind.
Soul=heart
Get to the heart of things. All spiritual progress is made within the heart.

To say this as simply as i can. Concentrate on thoughts and you will fly. concentrate on desires and you will fall. yes. the heart is the root of the mind. So in order to purify the mind, in order to increase the quality of thoughts. you must increase the quality of your feelings. " he who is master of his feelings/heart is master of his mind.

#31

[QUOTE=Aksara;75261]What is a god? What is your understanding of it?[/QUOTE]

A god to me is a liberated being, who has attained the self-realization of Yoga and unleashed their unlimited god potential. Such people are gods.

But I also use the term more loosely to describe beings who have attained very high levels of spiritual development and gone beyond human mortals. Such beings would be able to perform any of the siddhis Patanjali describes.

#32

What is a god to some one. and a god to someone els. matters not. for these are just more self identifications. what matters is what god IS.

#33

get rid of the self identifications! free the heart of its ensnarement and you free the mind in the process!

#34

[QUOTE=Aksara;75316]The proof is given too everyone individually, some may see it or accept it while others don’t. You yourself are longing for true love and you are frustrated with the attitude of people around you, that’s why you started this thread. You have to look inside to see this truth in you. And if you have this need then other souls also have it, because we are all the same. However, you won’t find water in the desert. That doesn’t mean that a thing like water doesn’t exist, you are just looking in the wrong place. Similarly, true love cannot be found in the material mind and ego. It is the nature of the pure soul only.[/QUOTE]

Come on, that is a cop out lol
I am starting to get less frustrated with the attitude of people around me, and coming to accept that it is rather my previous attitude of expecting something from them or expecting them to be loving to me that was at fault. I am mature enough to realize no such thing as love exists, there is only selfishness or self-love if you want to call it. So people are only important in my life insofar as they are useful to me, otherwise I don’t need to know them.

Actually, accepting ones loneliness in life is one of the pillars of existential therapy. Existential therapy is accepting the basic facts of life: namely summed up as selfishness. Somewhat similar to how the Buddhists accept change and impermanence as a part of life. We create our suffering when we do not accept these facts of life. This is why all this ‘love’ talk is just feeding fantasy - it actually ends up creating more problems for people who believe in it.

#35

[QUOTE=Avatar186;75346]What is a god to some one. and a god to someone els. matters not. for these are just more self identifications. what matters is what god IS.[/QUOTE]

Depends what you mean by god. To say god ‘is’ really makes no difference to our life. What matters is how much of that godly power you can tap. I am not here to serve some god, I am here to become a god myself. Anybody else who wants to spend their life in servitude to god can be my guest. They will remain mortals.