Selfishness is a virtue

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75947]What you call the Bhagvan aspect the impersonalists call Saguna Brahman, or otherwise as I stated previously the anthomorphic god, god understood through human language and its concepts. God as father, god as mother, god as beloved, god as son, god as holy spirit, god as Vishna, as Shiva, as Allah, as Jehova. However, it is clearly a fallacy that god can be described, because the infinite which can be described, is not the infinite. Therefore Saguna Brahman is regarded only to be a human fantasy or fiction.[/QUOTE]

There are no means by which the finite can understand the infinite by its own endeavors. So if we take the holy scriptures as mere products of human endeavor than they are in fact useless for understanding God. If they are not understood as revelations of God himself or someone who has seen God then let’s not waste time with them.
If we accept that God is all powerful - and without that attribute there is no meaning of the term God - then he must possess the power to make himself known to others. So the infinite can make himself known to the finite. That doesn’t mean that you can know God completely. Because he is infinite, there is always something beyond your capacity, but you can know him to an extent that you require for complete satisfaction. The fact that God is infinitive is what makes him so attractive.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75952]Patanjali does not say anything about acting in accordance with ‘god’s will’ :smiley: He says that the the siddhis will come to anybody who practices Yoga, or even through other means like mantras and herbs, drugs etc. He does not take into consideration whether those people have good or evil intentions. Simply put: Anybody that masters Yoga will attain the powers. ‘God’s will’ is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

Of course he doesn’t say that, and I think I didn’t claim he does. God is not an important issue in the yoga sutras, although he does mention devotion to isvara as one of the required observances for success in yoga (II.32).

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75952]Yes Patanjali does say that in Ishvara the seed of omniscience is unsurpassed, however he also makes it clear that the witness and self is identical to ishvara and also says the souls can also attain omniscience and omnipotence. Patanjali makes no distinction between ishvara and the liberated purusha(the self). They are identical. The terms self, witness and ishvara are used synonymously by him. There is no real difference.[/QUOTE]

How do you come to the conclusion that for Patanjali there is no difference between purusa and isvara? In my understanding his take is that isvara is a special purusa (the same understanding is given in other scriptures). Otherwise the introduction of the term “isvara” and the way he deals with the subject doesn’t make sense. Patanjali’s yoga sutras are very concise. He wouldn’t waste any time with redundancies.

According to who?

We are always serving because it is our nature. In a healthy state of consciousness we serve God and in an insane state we serve our dog.

In fact the contrary is true, I can give you a lot more examples to show that our nature is not to serve than it is to serve. If our nature was to serve and obey, then why do we need so many laws, rules, security and policing forces? Why do kids need rules and strict systems of reward and punishments from their parents?

You need to pay a visit to some of the council estates here in the UK, and you will see just how rebellious and free spirited people are :smiley:

We are under the dictation of our insane mind, and we are always serving our material senses. The stomach says “now give me food”, the eyes say “now let me see a beautiful woman (or handsome man)”, and the genitals say “now satisfy us”, and we are running just to please them. And we think that this is freedom.

So are you telling me everytime your stomach says “Give me food” you stop everything you are doing and immediately obey? Or when your genitals say “Satisfy me” you immediately stop what you are doing and start copulating there and then? :lol: Of course not, you have the power of discrimination(vivek) you can tell your stomach and genitals to shut up, at least for a while. You also have the powers of non-attachment(vairagaya) you can eventually completely rise over any of your senses.

This flows back to the same discussion we had earlier: We are not controlled by nature, we are only influenced by nature. Ultimately we have the power to completely master nature.

Do you really think it is a diseased condition for the soul to want to master nature? That sounds like what the Europeans use to say about their black slaves who resisted them and wanted to be free. They said they had a disease :wink:

The spirit soul is of the higher energy and material nature is the lower energy (Bhagavad-gita 7.4-5). Then the question is how can the lower nature control the higher? Because the spirit soul is minute! It can be covered up bey material nature. The minute soul has to connect with the supreme soul to maintain its independant nature.

There can be no question of size, shape or form for the soul, because the soul has no size, shape or form. The physical body has size, shape and form - but the soul doesn’t.

Again, for whatever reason our soul is currently having an embodied experience in human form, but this does not make our soul impure. The soul is still pure, because the soul can never be tainted by the impurities of matter, in the same way a clear crystal cannot be tainted by anything placed in front of it. It will appear to take on the form of whatever is placed in front of it, but it always remains pure. This is by the way a classic explanation for why the soul always remains pure in Yoga philosophy my friend.

Acts out of selfishness result in karma, they bind you to material laws, causing material enjoyment and suffering. Selflessness is divine, it is the spontaneous desire to act in harmony with God. God himself is never selfish. He acts for the benefit of all his parts since time inmemoriable.

No, this is again brought about by your misunderstanding of what the false ego is. The false ego is not the the part within us that wants to act freely, the actual doer. The false ego is when we believe that the mind-body is the doer. When we assign doership to the mind and body we come under the limitations of cause and effect, because te mind and body is material and all matter is subject to the laws of causality. The soul is never subject to causality.

The Yoga-Samkhya literature make this explicitly clear:

Thus consciousness(soul) is never actually really entangled, is never liberated and never transmigrates. It is matter which is entangled, liberated and transmigrates. Consciousness merely becomes misidentified, but when discriminative knowledge appears the misidentication is reversed. (Samkhyakarika 62)

One should be determined to get out of all kinds of inferior service and only serve the Supreme Lord. I think Krishna is that Supreme Lord. He is called by other names in other traditions, but that doesn’t make any difference - God is always God, no matter by which name he is known.

The weakest link in your understanding of Yoga is this god concept. It has actually made you believe the exact contrary of what Yoga philosophy teaches that you are suppose to be some servant of a god. I think that is tragic. However, rather than reading the actual Yoga shastras for your primary source, you are reading the Bhagvad Gita, which was written by a collection of anonymous authors within the Vaishnavist tradition to reconcile many contradictory philosophical viewpoints concurrent in India at the time of composition to support Vaishnavist theology.

I see Vaishnavism as I see any other theological tradition, such as Catholicism, Christian and Islamic Scholaticism - a desperate attempt to rationalize belief through reinterpretation and elbarate logical and verbal gymnastics when contradicted by actual evidence(valid pramanas). Logically, the Gita is basically a bunch of contradictory statements. To its believers it is the word of the one true god :wink:

How do you come to the conclusion that for Patanjali there is no difference between purusa and isvara? In my understanding his take is that isvara is a special purusa (the same understanding is given in other scriptures). Otherwise the introduction of the term “isvara” and the way he deals with the subject doesn’t make sense. Patanjali’s yoga sutras are very concise. He wouldn’t waste any time with redundancies.

Well, it is clear that Ishvara is not an important topic in the Yoga sutras, because there are less than half a dozen sutras on the topic. Thus, some scholars opine that this section was probably inserted into the YS later by theologians. However, this is merely an opinion, there is no definitive evidence that this really is the case.

In any case Ishvara is not problematic in the YS. I never said Ishvara is identical to purusha, I said Ishvara is identical to a liberated purusha

Yoga makes it very clear at the very beginning that Yoga is for the silencing of the mental activities(mental vrittis) to reveal ones actual true self. The word it uses for ones self here is not purusha, but drastu(the true witnessing consciousness)

According to Samkhya-Yoga philosophy there are infinite purushas(souls) that are entangled in prakriti(matter) but their entanglement is not actual, it is only apparent. Samkhya-Yoga makes this very clear by proving through philosophical arguments that the soul is always pure, it is never tainted by matter. The classic analogy is the pure crystal, which will appear to take on the form of its surroundings, but never actually really does. In the same way the many infinite purushas appear to take on the form of matter, and this is felt by the buddhi aspect in the mind, which is so similar to the actual nature of the purusha that it appears to be sentient and thus feels pain, pleasure and believes to be the agent of all actions. The fact that it is believes to be the agent of all actions embroils it into karma.

The buddhi, ahamkara, manas and senses are contained with the subtle body which is made up of the tanmatras. Every purusha has a subtle body created at the beginning of every creation. It is the subtle body that believes itself to be the agent and doer, that feels pleasure and pain and identifies with the bodies it inhabits. It is the subtle body which is the vehicle which transmigrates, gets bound and finally releases itself, not the purusha itself. The purusha is always free. It does not require purification or to be liberated. The purusha never enters into space, time or causality.

The purusha exists in two forms which the Samkhya-Yoga literature describes as ordinary and special. The ordinary is the purusha that is surrounded by matter and then takes on the form of the surrounding of matter, but as already argued, it never actually really takes on the form. It only appears to take on the form because the Buddhi misidentifies itself to be the Purusha. When the purusha is in this embodied form it is called ordinary. The special purusha is basically the purusha in its pure and essential form, and it is called ishvara. This part always remains active in the background because it always knows it is free, hence it is called the ‘higher self’ Both purushas are actually identical, only one purusha is in an embodied form and the other eternally exists as disembodied.

This is a complex idea to understand, but the metaphor of the wave and the ocean explains it very well.

Take the ocean to the special purusha or ishvara. A current rises in the special purusha or ishvara which causes waves to all appear all over the ocean. Take these waves to the ordinary purshas. The ordinary purushas exist in embodied form as waves, but essentially all the purushas are the same special purusha. This is identical to the Vedantic Jivatmans all being the same essence of Atman.

Hence why it is said that Brahman exists as both the immanent and transcendental. It is all Brahman. The waves, the rivers, the pools, the foam - it’s all Brahman expressed in various forms. Space is Brahman; Time is Brahman; energy is Brahman; mind is Brahman; All is Brahman . “All is Brahman” is also one of the great saying of Vedanta.

Who am I?

Who is the one talking to you right now asserting his identity with Brahman? Who is this one that is saying, ‘Aham Brahmasi’

I am purusha that is presenting itself through the medium of the buddhi. So they call me the ordinary purusha, for I am still purusha but existing in an embodied form. However, the ‘I’ part of me does not come from the Buddhi, the ‘I’ part comes from the the actual purusha, my true self, who they call special purusha, that is my higher self. It is all knowing. It is infinite. The part that is telling you right now that “I am that” is the purusha embodied in the embodied form, through the medium of the buddhi which has become clear enough to reach this realization intellectually, in other words this buddhi is now disentangling itself, it is becoming clearer to reveal more of the purusha. How is this possible? The higher self, which they call ishvara, which always existed in the background of my buddhi is its universal teacher, the most ancient of teachers, and it is moving it along. The buddhi part of me recognizes this ‘higher self’ as a higher power underlying everything and my essential and true nature. The more and more clearer my buddhi becomes the more manifest ‘I’ become. Eventually my buddhi will become absolutely clear and ‘I’ will be revealed absolutely.

Another way of putting it, borrowing from Jesus:

I am the son of man, and the son of god, and I am god.

This is a very difficult idea to understand, because the ‘I’ that speaks to you right now is effectively three different persons, that are identical. However, while other identities will fall away son of man and son of god, I am god will be the only identity that will remain.

How long can you resist the call of nature in the conditioned state?
And how do you get out of the grip of nature if you do? You need the help of something beyond you, for example scripture or guru.
The soul has free will which comprises control, but it doesn’t have absolute free will or absolute control. Humans need to be educated to use free will properly or they degrade themselves. Violation of law leads to imprisonment. Violation of the laws of nature also leads to punishment. Spiritual emancipation means perfect use of free will. Isopanisad says:

“Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.” (Mantra 1)

The size of the soul is mentioned in Svetasvatara Upanisad 5.9:

“When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul.”

The soul always remains pure because it never mixes with anything. But its consciousness may be covered by maya, which is the state that we experience right now.

Bhagavad-gita is a holy scripture that can give you enlightenment. It is part of the Mahabharata written by Srila Vyasadeva. If it was such a useless concoction why did saints like Sankaracarya, Madhvacarya or Ramanujarcarya care to comment on it? Modern scholars who try to understand Vedic scriptures from their point of view do not have sufficient insight into the subject matter to give any valuable contribution.
Spiritual science is always contradictory and cannot be understood independantly. You need a self-realized teacher.

Your arguments are pretty weak, so they are not convincing me. Most of them are appealing to religious authority, “scripture says” I don’t care what scripture says lol I don’t deal with beliefs. I deal with evidence and reason. I have read all the scriptures you have cited so far, and I have taken what was useful and rejected what was not useful. If you have not noticed already, I quote from scriptures from all religions.

How long can you resist the call of nature in the conditioned state?
And how do you get out of the grip of nature if you do? You need the help of something beyond you, for example scripture or guru.

The soul has free will which comprises control, but it doesn’t have absolute free will or absolute control. Humans need to be educated to use free will properly or they degrade themselves. Violation of law leads to imprisonment. Violation of the laws of nature also leads to punishment. Spiritual emancipation means perfect use of free will.

I reject the tyranny of your god Krishna. I do not serve him, and hes obviously not powerful enough to make me serve him :wink: You can serve him all you want, I am not interested.

I go by what the actual Samkhy-Yoga shatras of Patanjali and Kapila say, and by the way Kapila is referenced by Krishna in the Gita himself as the greatest of sages :wink: The reason I go by what they say is because they are based on empirical evidence and reasoning, so I can follow their arguments and test the validity of their conclusions.

Patanjali says absolutely nothing about the soul being limited in any way, or that it will be punished or rewarded by some god, or that the soul can only be freed by worshiping Krishna and winning his grace, or that one needs scripture or a guru to save them. All of this is just religious nonsense, spread by Vaishnavist theologians to keep their religion alive and their positions of power. They have co-opted the philosophies of Samkhya and Yoga and added a lot of nonsense to it(such as mythology)

Pure Samkhya-Yoga philosophy makes it absolutely clear through several rational arguments that the soul and matter are irreducible to one another, because one is the observer and one is the field in which all that is observed occurs. I am not the body, because the body is my object of observation. The soul is eternally free and independent of all matter. This is the foundations of Yoga philosophy, Yoga practice would not work otherwise. The very reason you are independent of all the activities of matter is what allows meditation to take place, and eventually total liberation and self-realization.

The idea that “No, the soul is not completely free, it is inferior to god” is just religious belief tagged on it. Human authorities have never liked the idea that the common human, should learn that they too are divine and capable of miracles and opulence, so whenever enlightened wisdom traditions and teachers have come that teach humans they are all potentially divine and can attain the same glories as them or affirm their identity with god, they have been fiercely resisted, either by putting the original teachers to death or by reinterpreting their teachings to the point where they no longer resemble the original and support the party line of the authorities:You are all sinners, condemned, impure, diseased, unholy and must serve god until you win his grace and love. How must do you this? By upholding traditional authority of course. Being good devotees :wink:

This may work with weak servile minds, but it does not work on strong, rational and independent minds. There is always going to be people like me who is going to say bollocks to all this religious nonsense. As you may know from reading some of my threads(I recommend “Why Puranic Hinduims is the most stupidest religion in the world”) I do like to challenge religious theology and the nonsensical beliefs and concepts they teach.

For instance you say that Lord Krishna is the lord and is free from karma and material influence, the supreme soul. However, if one reads the stories of Krishna presented both in the Mahabharata and the Puranas, Krishna indeed is affected by karma and material nature. He gets angry, he cries, he moans, he cheats, he kills, he deceives, he has obvious imperfections. In the end he is killed by an archer because of a curse was that put on him.

No offense, as extraordinary as the character of Krishna sounds, it is pretty obvious Krishna suffers many of the imperfections other human have. He is certainly not the one and only true god.

“Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.” (Mantra 1)

The size of the soul is mentioned in Svetasvatara Upanisad 5.9:

“When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul.”

The Upaishads abound in metaphor and symbolism, they cannot be read literally. If they are read literally they will constantly contradict one another and also sound like puerile nonsense e.g. Then the “fire spoke to the wind and said…” Most of the stories are purely symbolic to explain certain philosophical ideas, like the story of Nachiketa in the Katha Upanishad, where his dad sacrifices him and then he is sent to the Lord of Death Yama. This is obviously not literal. This is why the Brahma Sutras were composed, to reconcile the seeming contradictions in the Upanishads and distinguish the literal from the metaphorical. The Brahma Sutras, with the commentaries of Adishakara present a very rational presentation on what the true meaning of the verses in the Upanishads are.

Regarding the soul having size, this contradicts what other Upanishads say that the soul is formless and without dimension. The contradiction is reconciled when we interpret this passage to be referring either to the subtle body, or to be a metaphor for how the soul is infinitesimal. If the soul literally was 1/10000th of a strand of hair, it would be larger than an atom and we would be able to detect it and manipulate it. So if we take this Upanishad to be literal, then its obviouos unscientific nonsense, if we take it metaphorically then it is basically just a metaphor to explain that the soul is infinitesimal.

The same rule can be applied to the mantra that mentions the purusha has thousands of heads and thousands of feet. If taken literally, this is obvious nonsense, such a being could not exist, except in human imaginations. If taken metaphorically it obviously means that the purusha is present in innumerable bodies, and it hears, sees and tastes from everybody. As other Upanishads confirm, “That brahman sees from every eye, hears from every ears”

The Upanishads cannot be read literally, they are full of symbolism, metaphor and allegory. This is why there exists so many different interpretations and commentaries on them. We can get a general gist of the concepts they contain, the concepts of Brahman, Atman, Karma and reincarnation, Yoga, jnana. They are basically the foundation texts from which later emerge all other Indian philosophical traditions. They are not as rigorous or rational as the Shastras that emerge from them, but through metaphor and symbolism they still prove to be the most profound philosophical texts ever written. They still continue to inspire and stimulate the minds of many, but it would be foolish to treat them like bibles.

The soul always remains pure because it never mixes with anything. But its consciousness may be covered by maya, which is the state that we experience right now.

You are saying the soul always remains pure, then in the very next breath you add the rejoinder which contradicts your first sentence by pretty much says "Not totally pure"
Again, I am not going by what your religious scriptures says, I do not deal in belief. I deal with arguments. The soul remains pure because it cannot be tainted by matter. Matter and consciousness are irreducible. The Samkhyakarika presents in total 10 very valid and solid logical arguments to show why matter and consciousness are irreducible. Hence the famous purusha and prakriti dualism.

The soul can never be tainted. Indeed is that not Krishna himself says in the Gita? The soul is indestructible, it cannot be moistened by water, it cannot be burnt by fire, it cannot be withered by wind, it is never born so it never dies. (Actually the character of Krishna says many things in the Gita, which contradict one another, basically attempting to reconcile many contradictory viewpoints existing in the philosophical field in India)

Bhagavad-gita is a holy scripture that can give you enlightenment. It is part of the Mahabharata written by Srila Vyasadeva. If it was such a useless concoction why did saints like Sankaracarya, Madhvacarya or Ramanujarcarya care to comment on it? Modern scholars who try to understand Vedic scriptures from their point of view do not have sufficient insight into the subject matter to give any valuable contribution.

Lets not talk about holy and unholy. The Gita maybe holy to you, but to a Muslim the chances are it is unholy. To an academic/scholar it is just a book, which is interesting for its conceptual and philosophical material, its sociological material and its historical material.

It is clearly nonsense the Gita can give you enlightenment, if that is true then the Nazis must have been enlightened, because many of the Nazis actually had copies of the Gita they read. Many of the Hindu terrorists that slaughtered the Muslims enmasse in the 2002 Gujurat riots and murdered and raped nuns, killed Christian missionaries also read the Gita, in fact one one of the main Hindutva /VHP websites directly quotes slokas from the Gita which are used to justify their campaign of violence. So we can lay to rest the idea that the Gita can give enlightenment.

No single scripture can give you enlightenment. You give yourself enlightenment by practicing Yoga, which can include reading scriptures and contemplating their teachings. Some do not even need scriptures, some awaken their own intuition through Yogic practice and directly experience what the scriptures may say. This direct intuitional wisdom is much superior to empirical, intellectual or scriptural knowledge, says Patanjali.

I am not at all condemning the Gita, but I am seeing it a lot more objectively and dispassionately than you are. I am aware that it is later work, that was added to the Mahabharata. Not much is known about the original authors, but it certainly was not mythological figure known as Ved Vyasa. It is a philosophical composition that is set in the background of the mythology of India. It contains some original philosophical ideas, but a lot of it just a collection of older concepts from the Upanishads.

The Gita is indeed a remarkable philosophical text and an amazing literary work, and I am agreement with many scholars such as Emerson et al that were enchanted by it, and I can see why Shankara et al wrote commentaries on it.

Spiritual science is always contradictory and cannot be understood independantly. You need a self-realized teacher.

Nah, you need a brain. You need to use your own powers of reasoning, not rely on what some authority tells you. Spiritual teachers are definitely very beneficial and welcome, but they are not absolutely necessary. Many have reached enlightenment or high levels of spiritual development without them. Sri Ramana Maharishi did not even have a teacher. Patanjali also makes it clear that no teacher is needed, for everybody contains Ishvara, who is the most ancient of all teachers and the teachers of all. He also makes it clear that all knowledge will come to the practitioners of Yoga by itself.

I just wanted to say, and I do not mean this to be personal in any way, but I just noticed something interesting regarding me and my relationship with Hinduism. I noticed that my reason for leaving Hinduism is mostly because of fanaticism from Vaishnavist adherents, who make up the majority of Hindus in the world. The distaste I share for Vaishnavism is almost equal to my distaste for Abrahamic religions. Although I realize Hinduism is much more than just Vaishnavism, in its popular form today Hindusim no longer represents the enlightened Vedic culture of the sages(Buddhism is probably a better approximation) Hinduism today is full of dogma, superstition and fanaticism and can rival the best of the Abrahamic religions for it. This is why I have disowned the title of being Hindu, despite my obvious subscription to Hindu philosophies.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75967]Who am I?

Who is the one talking to you right now asserting his identity with Brahman? Who is this one that is saying, ‘Aham Brahmasi’

I am purusha that is presenting itself through the medium of the buddhi. So they call me the ordinary purusha, for I am still purusha but existing in an embodied form. However, the ‘I’ part of me does not come from the Buddhi, the ‘I’ part comes from the the actual purusha, my true self, who they call special purusha, that is my higher self. It is all knowing. It is infinite. The part that is telling you right now that “I am that” is the purusha embodied in the embodied form, through the medium of the buddhi which has become clear enough to reach this realization intellectually, in other words this buddhi is now disentangling itself, it is becoming clearer to reveal more of the purusha. How is this possible? The higher self, which they call ishvara, which always existed in the background of my buddhi is its universal teacher, the most ancient of teachers, and it is moving it along. The buddhi part of me recognizes this ‘higher self’ as a higher power underlying everything and my essential and true nature. The more and more clearer my buddhi becomes the more manifest ‘I’ become. Eventually my buddhi will become absolutely clear and ‘I’ will be revealed absolutely.[/QUOTE]

This is just word jugglery! You can never come out of the perplexity to be unable to explain how you could be possibly be entangled by maya if you really were God. God can never be under the illusionary energy because it is his energy and completely under his control. You are obviously under the control of maya, and you’ll be never be able to get out of it if you don’t even realize this simple fact.

So much writing Surya…I appreciate your service :stuck_out_tongue: in the matter of entertaining us or maybe even trying to convince us of something you believe is beneficial.
If you were really as selfish as you suggest then you should rather fix your mind on your own spiritual sadhana to attain what you hold sacred than trying to convince others.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75955]So are you telling me everytime your stomach says “Give me food” you stop everything you are doing and immediately obey? Or when your genitals say “Satisfy me” you immediately stop what you are doing and start copulating there and then? :lol: Of course not, you have the power of discrimination(vivek) you can tell your stomach and genitals to shut up, at least for a while. [/QUOTE]

When we are in the grip of material nature we have the freedom of a dog. The master may allow his dog to run around freely for a while, but then again: chain! No one wants to become old, but we are forced to, no one wants to become sick, but we do, no one wants to die, but death may be forced on us at any time. Little bit influenced by nature? I would call this controlled, sorry for that.
Of course, you may say you have the option to get out of it by practicing yoga. But you will have to do it otherwise the vision of freedom will remain a dream only. You will have to take to a very rigid practice in order to achieve just a little bit of success on the path of astanga-yoga or jnana-yoga, whatever you prefer. First you must realize that you are not your body and mind. Just believing in it is not enough, although it is the first step. You must live it. Forget about a comfortable lifestyle with all the amenities of modern civilization. If you are not your body and mind your activities have to reflect that. Be selfish and go for realization!

[QUOTE=Aksara;75990]This is just word jugglery! You can never come out of the perplexity to be unable to explain how you could be possibly be entangled by maya if you really were God. God can never be under the illusionary energy because it is his energy and completely under his control. You are obviously under the control of maya, and you’ll be never be able to get out of it if you don’t even realize this simple fact.[/QUOTE]

The question on why we are in this world cannot be answered by the mind. This is the stand the great Shankara takes on this matter too. Your finite mind is asking about what is outside of time, space and causality. It is impossible. Your mind is limited by time, space and causality, it cannot go out of it. Therefore, your question is irrelevant.

However what we can know by what is called self-inquiry or atma vidya/atma jnana that the self is distinct from the matter. Though this process of self-inquiry we are able to know that ‘I’ am not the body, nor the mind or nature in any way. I am exact opposite of nature. I am Independent of nature(svatantra) I am spaceless, timeless and beyond effect or cause. I am pure consciousness.

What do we call a purely conscious being that is spaceless, timeless and beyond causality? God. Thus I affirm my identity with god. There cannot be many infinite beings, there can only be one infinite being. This is why the Vedas proclaim, “Ekam Sat” I am that Ekam Sat. I am that Sat-Chit-Ananda.

As Shankara repeats in the Atma Shaktam:

Chitananda Rupam, Shivoham Shivoham

I am that Shiva, I am that Brahman, I am existence, consciousness and bliss. I am that witness. I am that Self. I am god.

It makes no difference that I currently exist in a conditioned form to my essential nature. When water takes on the form of ice, water does not cease being water, it is still essentially water. The fact that Brahman has expressed itself in infinite forms, does not change that that in essence all is Brahman. This is exactly the conclusion of the Upanishads too: ‘All is Brahman’ If all is Brahman, then I am Brahman too. If you refute this, then you refute the Upanishads and the Risis that laid the foundation of your religion.

You find it difficult to affirm your identity with god, despite the fact your Risis have made it clear that this is your essential form, because you are attached to Vaishnavist theology. You cannot see Krishna in another way, or the Gita in another way, or the history of India in another way in the same the Christian cannot see any other way but Jesus, or Muslim any god other than Allah. You are not free. You are enslaved by your religious beliefs and traditions.

I am not under the control of nature. This mind and body is under the control of nature, because it belongs to nature. ‘I’ do not belong to nature. I am the complete opposite of nature. Understand this and you will liberate your mind.

So much writing Surya…I appreciate your service in the matter of entertaining us or maybe even trying to convince us of something you believe is beneficial.
If you were really as selfish as you suggest then you should rather fix your mind on your own spiritual sadhana to attain what you hold sacred than trying to convince others.

I am not here to convince you mortal :stuck_out_tongue: By discussing these ideas, I am able to remind my mind of the great quest it is to embark on. It is better for me that you remain a mortal and continue to believe that you must serve us gods, for when I become a god I could do with some worshipers :wink:

The fact remains that I have listened to what the Vedic Risis of your religion said and the great spiritual masters that have graced this Earth in history. I am now very aware of my god potential or better put my true essential form. It is a very real possibility for me and I will definitely realize it. I am about to fully immerse myself in the path to immortality. You will hear about me, in this incarnation or your next, where you will probably be still serving some god or the other. This whole world will hear about me, write about me and many will worship me in times to come.

When we are in the grip of material nature we have the freedom of a dog. The master may allow his dog to run around freely for a while, but then again: chain! No one wants to become old, but we are forced to, no one wants to become sick, but we do, no one wants to die, but death may be forced on us at any time. Little bit influenced by nature? I would call this controlled, sorry for that.

This is not what the Vedic Risis have taught me. I am not sure what religion you follow, but it is not the true Sanatana dharma of the Risis who have very loudly proclaimed that you are that infinite, absolute divine being, the pure truth. You may continue to believe that you are a dog under the leash of nature and under the lordship of Krishna. I am not a dog. I am god and the master of nature. I am my own lord.

Use your powers of reasoning mortal. You are not under control of anything that you can become aware of. If your stomach grumbles and demands food, you become aware of it, then you have a space within which you can make a choice. Your stomach does not control you. You control your stomach. Your body is your instrument or vehicle, it cannot go anywhere, unless you will it to go. You can completely control every process in your body, but you can do this when you unlock more of your consciousness, so that the subconscious and unconscious processes of your body come under your awareness. Then you can control them.

As soon as you become aware of something, you at the same time become aware of its negation. This is the classic technique of the Vedic Risis, Neti Neti negate everything you experience, and that which remains is the truth and nothing but the truth. Have you tried negating Krishna? The Gita? Your strong beliefs in tradition? Are you brave enough to do this mortal :wink:

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;76001]I am about to fully immerse myself in the path to immortality. You will hear about me, in this incarnation or your next, where you will probably be still serving some god or the other. This whole world will hear about me, write about me and many will worship me in times to come.[/QUOTE]

By what name will you go by so I can say I knew him when.

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;76005]By what name will you go by so I can say I knew him when.[/QUOTE]

lol, your soul will recognize me :wink:

An older thread on the Gita and Bhakti Yoga: http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f20/the-four-yogas-9292.html

There is only one worthy of worship. Everything else is subservient.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75997]The question on why we are in this world cannot be answered by the mind. This is the stand the great Shankara takes on this matter too. Your finite mind is asking about what is outside of time, space and causality. It is impossible. Your mind is limited by time, space and causality, it cannot go out of it. Therefore, your question is irrelevant.

However what we can know by what is called self-inquiry or atma vidya/atma jnana that the self is distinct from the matter. Though this process of self-inquiry we are able to know that ‘I’ am not the body, nor the mind or nature in any way. I am exact opposite of nature. I am Independent of nature(svatantra) I am spaceless, timeless and beyond effect or cause. I am pure consciousness.[/QUOTE]

On the one hand you want to rationalize everything, relying on your intelligence which you consider infallible, but on the other hand when it comes to a crucial point you say it cannot be explained, because it is beyond reason. The fact is that the impersonal explanation of Absolute Truth is incomplete, it is only half of the truth, because Absolute Truth has a personal aspect, too. Jnana cannot go that far, because its process is neti neti or negation, as you have explained. Reasoning: I am not this, not that, and coming to the point that I must be something beyond. When reasoning comes near to the Absolute Truth is collapses, it cannot enter there. That’s why the jnanis conclusion is that it cannot be explained and that Absolute doesn’t have qualities. Jnana can never positively ascertain the characteristics of the Absolute because its method is negation. It can lead to liberation from the gunas, but the jnani remains in a fragile position.
Of course, Absolute doesn’t have material qualities, but it does have spiritual qualities. The material world is just a perverted reflection of the spiritual world, therefore nothing here has real substance. The substance is in the spiritual realm. It is not possible to enter into the spiritual realm by logical argument.

yasya deve para bhaktir
yatha-deve tatha gurau
tasyaite kathita hy arthah
prakasante mahatmanah

“Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed.” (Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.38)

On the one hand you want to rationalize everything, relying on your intelligence which you consider infallible, but on the other hand when it comes to a crucial point you say it cannot be explained, because it is beyond reason. The fact is that the impersonal explanation of Absolute Truth is incomplete, it is only half of the truth, because Absolute Truth has a personal aspect, too.

You see this is the difference between me and you: You assert very directly the Absolute Truth must have a personal aspect too. However, I am saying I don’t know if it has a personal aspect, because it is not something my mind is capable of answering. I am humble enough to admit the limitations of my mind. I simply say I don’t know, but I will find out at some point in time when I reach self-realization.

Reasoning: I am not this, not that, and coming to the point that I must be something beyond. When reasoning comes near to the Absolute Truth is collapses, it cannot enter there. That’s why the jnanis conclusion is that it cannot be explained and that Absolute doesn’t have qualities. Jnana can never positively ascertain the characteristics of the Absolute because its method is negation. It can lead to liberation from the gunas, but the jnani remains in a fragile position.

Yes, absolutely agree with you, reason has its limitations in time, space and causality. This is the conclusion of all enlightened philosophers from Shankara to Kant. Reason cannot tell you about the absolute truth, it can only hint at it. The reasoning of the Vedic Risis is able to declare: That the nature of the absolute truth is truth/existence, consciousness and bliss. It is not non-existence, because if it were non-existence, it could not produce anything. It is definitely ‘something’ It is not unconscious, because if it were unconscious then there would be no self. It is unchanging, because if it were changing, it would be composed of the gunas and be material and inert.

This is as far as Jnana can go in ascertaining the Nirguna Brahman. Jnana is humble it will admit its limitations. Faith is not humble though, faith will pretend to know about the absolute, faith will attempt to describe the absolute, faith will create stories and narratives about the absolute - but this is NOT the Nirguna Brahman, this is Saguna Brahman, Brahman understood through the prism of the human language and concepts.

Truly, how arrogant are humans to think in this vast universe god is going to be identical to them, will emote and think like them, will have a personality like them, and will personally come and intervene in their petty human affairs. Humans see themselves as the center of the universe. This is what makes the human pathetic. Humans, who are but glorified animals, overdeveloped chimps think they can tell about that ultimate reality that is beyond time, space and causality? Deluded fools.

Of course not all humans are deluded fools, some humans who awaken their intellect(buddhi) start to begin an inner transformation in themselves. They may look to other humans in the world like humans, but they feel something more than human within themselves. Hence why they say “I am not of this world” These great people then become the Beethovans, Einsteins, Leonardo Da Vinci, Picassos, Shakespeares, Patanjali, Shankaras, Kapilas, Buddha and the Risis etc etc of our history. The more the intellect awakens, the greater the feeling of divinity begins to manifest, to the point where they no longer identify as humans at all, but gods. This is the reason why the Vedas and Yoga shastras constantly tell humans to cultivate their intellect. The Samkhyakarika says it more explicitly:

[i]23. The intelligence principle is the faculty which ascertains or wills. When sattva guna is prepondernt, virtue, wisdom and dispassion are produced in the intelligence. When the other gunas are preponderant, other qualities are produced(tamas: torpidity, dullness, delusion)

    1. The intelligence is the principal organ. The data received from the external organs, is presented to the mind for observation and deliberation, which is then personalized by the ego, and then present finally to the intelligence for ascertainment and final decision making.
  1. The intelligence is the closest in quality and promixity to consciousness, and thus consciousness directly experiences the movements of the intelligence, and the feelings of pain and pleasure which take place within it. The intelligence is what wills, makes decisions and brings about experiences. It is also what guides consciousness to truth and discerns the subtle differences between matter and consciousness. When the intelligence is unrefined, the intellect creates an awareness that there is no difference between consciousness and matter.[/i]

The refinement of the Buddhi is the only way by which one can transform themselves from a savage human mind into an enlightened divine mind. Those foolish and pathetic humans who do not cultivate their intelligence are condemned to remain in the samsara of humans. Intelligence is what has allowed humans to rule over all other animals on this planet. Intelligence is what allows humans to rule over humans. Intelligence is what turns a human into a god and a master of the universe.

An unthinking human is a savage. A non-contemplative human is primitive. This is why the great philosopher Plato said that the philosopher is the greatest of humans. The philosopher is the King.

Primitive humans follow the religion of faith. They worship cows, trees, rocks, rain, sun, lakes other, humans and fantasy objects. They remain mortals. Enlightened humans focus on themselves, the refinement of their intellect and their personal evolution and become gods.

The Buddha had the most enlightened and practical attitude, for he did not even care about metaphysical questions, his aim was simply on teaching people Yoga so that they can liberate themselves and finally come to their own knowledge.

Whether there is a god or not a god, whether there is an afterlife or not an afterlife, why not just find out yourself? These questions are really irrelevant, the only thing that is relevant is finding your own self. Focus on self-realization and get that far at least, and if there is anything beyond you will know when you get there. Do not waste your life worshiping a god that may or may not exist .

[QUOTE=Aksara;76029]It is not possible to enter into the spiritual realm by logical argument.[/QUOTE]

Bhakti, Karma, Jnana, Raja…one may have a predisposition for one or the other but none should be neglected; humans have emotions, live in a world of action, are influenced by minds that think and operating against the backdrop of stillness, of course have your disposition but don’t forsake the others. There are 7 billion humans on the planet each with an inner uniqueness to bring them into the spiritual realm; you are the source of the happening.

Absolutely nothing personal is happening.