Selfishness is a virtue

When the Upanisads speak about the self in this may they refer to the Supreme Self, not the individual self.

Yes, it refers to the universal self. Hence why it also says

'Ayam Atma Brahma" - My Atma is Brahman

The Atman of all beings is the same. All living entities are Jivatmans, i.e., fragments of the one single Atman. The actual self of all Jivas is the Atman. In the same way the self of all rays of the sun is the sun itself. The Jivas are in essence all identical.

Everyone has powers to manipulate something. Yogis can acquire much more power than ordinary beings, but never complete power. Complete power is the hands of the Supreme God only - fortunately. We would just create havoc, that’s why our powers have to be limited.

If you could perform even half of the siddhis Patanjali describes you could not be called limited. Here are just some of the powers Patanjali describes:

Knowledge of the entire solar systems, star systems
Knowledge of all of ones past births and past
Knowledge of the future
Knowledge of the thoughts of all other beings
Knowledge of the entire constitution of ones body
The power of invisibility
The power of living without food or water
The power of invincible strength
The power of clairvoyance, clairaudience, clairsentience
The power of entering and controlling any other body
The power of levitation and flying
The power of teleporting to any point in space
The power to control the gross and subtle elements
The power to increase ones size and decrease ones size

Here is where Patanjali makes it explicitly clear that the power one gains are unlimited:

3.48: Mastery over the sense organs is gained by samyama on the senses as they correlate to the process of perception, the essential nature of the senses, the ego-sense and to their purpose
3.49: From that, the body gains the power to move as fast as the mind, the ability to function without the aid of the sense organs and complete mastery over nature(prakriti)
3.50: By recognition of the distinction between sattva(the pure reflective aspect of the mind) and the Self, omnipotence and omniscience is gained.

3.56: When the tranquil mind attains equal purity to that of the Self, there is absoluteness.

Simply put, Patanjali is saying you can eventually become a omniscient and omnipotent being. If that is not a god, then tell me what is?

Where do the yogis get their power from? They have to undergo severe austerities to get them.

According to Patanjali these powers all come by themselves as a result of ones spiritual development, they need not be strived for.

3.34: Or, the knowledge that dawns by spontaneous intuition(through a life of purity), all the power comes by themselves

4.1: Siddhis are born of practices performed in previous births, or by herbs, or through mantras, austerities or samadhi

There are indeed countless examples of how ordinary pious humans have developed powers and abilities, like monks, saints etc

And Patanjali warns that the eight mystic siddhis are actually obstacles on the path of self-realization. It’s another snare of maya. If you go for them your whole progress in the matter of self-realization is ruined.

No, Patanjali warns that if we linger on the various siddhis they will become obstacle to the final goal which is total realization of ones absolute self.

Everyone has his or her own project for becoming God and exploit nature and other beings. This is the whole struggle of existence because we are all like this. We have to give up our idea of power and control before we can become self-realized.

If you give up your idea of power and control, then you will never become a god. Isn’t the Yoga about the total mastery over body, mind and nature? Give up and forget about becoming a god. You seem more content in worshiping god than becoming a god.

The particles or fragments never become one with the Supreme Self, they are always one with it. The self is eternally unchanging, it does not become anything else than what it is now. The fragments exist eternally as fragments and the whole exists eternally as the whole.

Do you realize the problem in setting up a dichotomy between the whole and the parts? The whole pervades all the parts. The whole is never separate from the parts. In the same way each droplet of an ocean is pervaded by the ocean, it is never separate from the ocean. In the same way every jiva is pervaded by the Atman, they are never separate from the Atman. The essence of every Jiva is the same Atman.

Continuing with the ocean example. The ocean gives rise to droplets, foam, waves, pools, rivers, but foam, waves, pools, rivers are just name and forms of the same substance of the ocean. In actual fact they are all the same ocean, there is no such thing as foam, rivers pools, rivers really. Likewise, there really is no such thing as jivas, space, time, energy, mind, matter and bodies of any description, it is all that one Brahman expressing itself in infinite forms. Hence the Upanishads declare: Aham Brahmasmi - I am that Brahman.

“The living entities (jiva) in this conditioned world are My (mama) eternal (sanatanah) fragmental parts (amsah). Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.”
(Bhagavad-gita 15.7)

This can also be interpreted to mean that Krishna is speaking from the perspective of a self-realized god. All self-realized gods would speak the same - “All is a part of me” “I am the ALL” Remember Krishna actually even says, “I remember all my past lives” which means Krishna too went though the cycles of birth and death as every soul has to, before he attained full realization in one of his births and could speak like a god.

What I am saying is: Don’t worship Krishna, follow Krishna example and become a god yourself. You do not need to worship anybody mortal. Become a god and let others worship you :wink:

Actually patanjali gives his foundation method for developing all those abilities. He calls it self control. But states what self control is before saying it a bunch. :wink: so the method is their.

As well. Desirelessness is gained in immortality. Directing the flow of creative.nature to change the state of your being.causes desirelessness.

When you see the world as it really is,how can it give you anything,when you have everything?

What I am saying is: Don’t worship Krishna, follow Krishna example and become a god yourself. You do not need to worship anybody mortal. Become a god and let others worship you

Too add to this point, is it not ironic how all enlightened and advanced spiritual beings that come to Earth have all had the common message that we can attain the same glories and powers that they have, but instead of following on their path to become like them, we would rather create religions to worship them lol

Jesus: “Ye are all divine” "You can have same glories and more that I possess"
Buddha: "You can all awaken, as I have, by following the noble path"
The Vedic Risis "You are that infinite and absolute being, meditate on that"
Patanjali: "Cease the minds activities and the true absolute self will be realized"
Krishna “Attain self-realization, become wise”

It is more than ironic, it hilarious how we can consistently overlook the message and focus on the messenger instead. It’s as if as humans would just prefer to worship others(or anything) than become gods themselves. This is why the human is truly pathetic.

How can you say human is pethetic when all these beings stated the potential of humans?
its like Moses and the golden calf. He left up the mountian for just a moment and bam! They were worshipping a cow again.
But then, don’t under estimate Maya.
besides. Teachings have all come from a master. Descended from someone. We build on the past. Even the language you speak.
So just because the earth hasn’t transmuted itself into the red man. Didn’t mean humanity is pethetic. You see. Creation and destruction are simultaneous. Their will always be those to work the fields and those who leave existance. Birth and death. So be happy that because their are many field workers, you do not have to farm your own field. Because they exist you can persue your existance. You no need to farm your own field. :slight_smile:

See how the divine exists in all and you will not feel bad feelings to all. You will feel sorrow for them. For they are as you are. Yet you aim to realize and they don’t. Yet what you realize exists in them also. The illusion is what you hate. If they realized it,they would hate the illusion too. But some day you will not even have averice to the illusion.

Indeed, I acknowledge that the same potential exists within all all other humans, in fact that potential exists even in smallest of creature like ants, in plants, in rocks and in atoms, but potential is not actual. When it is not actual it makes no difference to you, you are going to treat the thing as it is actually is. We treat animals as food, because though they may have the potential to one day become humans and then gods, they are not actually there.

When an adult interacts with a child, the adult does not think “This child has the potential of becoming an adult” The adult treats the child like a child. Similarly, for the gods humans are at worst food and at best children. The gods may grace humans with divine knowledge, but they don’t have to. Most of the spiritual traditions in history have not shared the divine knowledge with the masses, but only to high initiates.

When I become a fully realized god I may share my knowledge with others so others may become gods, or I may not and treat humans as they should be treated :wink:

Nicley said.
But is not the way
An adult treats a child based on the maturity of the adult?
:wink:

The soul wants to serve because it is its nature. The idea to control and exploit arises from the false ego to be the enjoyer of this world. People recognize that there is something greater and they want to revere that. Some worship gods, others worship demons and still others worship ghosts and spirits. And some worship the source of all, the absolute. To love and serve is what makes us happy. To control and exploit others makes us unhappy. It’s just an idea of the mind to become happy by gaining power. The desire for power, wealth and sense enjoyment is like a burning fire. The more you feed the fire the bigger it becomes, it will never be satisfied.
We are thrown into this world, completely ignorant, we somehow learn how to cope with our miserable situation, we hear about this theory and that theory and then we go for the idea “yeah, let’s become God”. What kind of idea about God is that? We are forced to become old, to suffer diseases and to die, and no one wants these things. We are not just a little influenced by nature, we are controlled, she enforces things on us that we don’t want.

The yoga siddhis are factual, but it is very difficult to acquire even a small fraction of them. You have to completely dedicate your life and energy to achieve some kind of a success. Forget about your comfortable life and all those things you cannot live without. If it would be that easy you surely would have obtained some of those powers, isn’t it?:stuck_out_tongue:

Still all those powers don’t make you God. You just share a fraction of his opulences, and it may be taken away any time if you don’t use them properly. Just to start with authentic yoga you will have to follow yamas and niyamas: nonviolence, truthfulness, refrainment from stealing, celibacy, renunciation from possessions, cleanliness, contentment, austerity, study of scripture and …devotion to God.

When Krishna speaks about his past lives in the Bhagavad-gita, these are not lives like ours, he isn’t forced to enter a material body.

“Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion?at that time I descend Myself.” (BG 4.7)

“One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.” (BG 4.9)

“Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature as the Supreme Lord of all that be.” (BG 9.11)

“Those who are thus bewildered are attracted by demonic and atheistic views. In that deluded condition, their hopes for liberation, their fruitive activities, and their culture of knowledge are all defeated.” (BG 9.12)

Absolute Truth is understood in three aspects- brahman, paramatma and bhagavan. Perfection in jnana-yoga leads to the realization of the brahman aspect - sat or being. I am, I am part of the whole, I am part of brahman, I am of the quality of brahman. In this way the jnani feels aham brahmasmi - I am that brahman. But the brahman feature is not the complete truth. Through jnana it not possible to realize the cit and ananda aspects of Absolut Truth, because paramatma and bhagavan are beyond logical argument.

Sorry, I don’t agree it is the soul’s nature to serve. If it was the soul’s nature to serve then why does the soul resist every rule and law you impose on it? Look at any living creature and you will see it resists any rules and laws you impose on it, whether that be the wild horse when you try to tame it, or a child who will resent any law you put on it. Indeed, if the soul was servile, then there would be no need for imposing morality, security and policing from the outside, the very fact they exist shows how difficult it is to make the soul obey and serve.

I like how one Hindu scholar once explained it Jay Lakhini, the director of Hindu studies in the UK, the soul is the exact opposite of nature. While nature only plays the role to serve the soul, as Patanjali himself says, “The seen exists only for the sake of the seer” the soul’s nature is to conquer nature. We go completely against nature and it shows in all human behaviour. I guess one of the shining examples of man’s conquest over nature is Hilary reaching the summit of Mount Everest, showing how man can rise above nature to the top.

The notion of our need for power and control comes from our ‘false ego’ is misguided. The need for power and control comes within us, because we are omnipotent beings, and we all feel this to an extent, but our current experience of reality as embodied human beings contradicts our actual nature, giving rise to our frustration and our false identification with the body, this is the false ego. Why deny 10,000 years of known human history? Humans have always been looking for power and control. It is very easy to see the struggle for power manifest in any human group. It is a basic primal instinct and stems from our essential nature.

The idea to control and exploit arises from the false ego to be the enjoyer of this world. People recognize that there is something greater and they want to revere that. Some worship gods, others worship demons and still others worship ghosts and spirits. And some worship the source of all, the absolute. To love and serve is what makes us happy. T

People recognize there is something greater and revere it, does not mean that that something they worship exists or really is holy :smiley: The tendency for worship is indeed also a primal instinct and again we can see from the beginning of history of humans that humans have been worshiping something or the other, natural phenomenon like fire, animals, trees or other humans, or conceptual things like concepts of god, images, ideas. In order to understand why humans do this we need to look into the psychology of humans and their motivations for worship, rather than the objects that they worship. Then we will realize there is something inherent within human psychology which recognizes subconsciously something greater, a higher power, but not as something which is externally existent, but something which is our essential nature. This is something the Vedic Risi’s also realized: There IS a higher power and this higher power is intrinsic to our essential nature - Atman = Brahman.

The Vedic Risis have also been able to explain that this higher power is identical to self-love, and they show self-love is the highest power known, how it can be seen in the most basic of living creatures - try to swat a fly for instance and the fly will try to doge you. Enter the territory of an animal and see how it will immediately act to protect its territory. Indeed as the Vedic risis say, “Selfishness is the basic motive behind ever action” Everybody acts only out of self-love. The most dearest thing to is indeed our own self. It’s verily our nature to be selfish. Selfishness is divine.

Now if you would like to deny the power of your self by worshiping some fictitious entity concocted in the imagination of some early humans like ‘god’ or worship another human, or a cow, or a tree or a rock then of course do so, but know that you will never realize your own power and will remain a mortal human. On the other hand, those like the Vedic Risis, Patanjali et al, who realized that essentially they are omnipotent beings, found out direct ways on how to transform the human into a god and then became gods. This inner-most knowledge has been kept secret, because knowledge is power and it is this knowledge that has given the advantage to some humans in history to rule over other humans. The ruled never realize their own power and serve the powerful either directly or indirectly through the institutions they create, and even rationalize their role as servile.

But the fact that some of you humans want to be servile is great for us gods, all gods can do with good servants :wink: So let me guess you worship the god Krishna?

The yoga siddhis are factual, but it is very difficult to acquire even a small fraction of them. You have to completely dedicate your life and energy to achieve some kind of a success. Forget about your comfortable life and all those things you cannot live without. If it would be that easy you surely would have obtained some of those powers, isn’t it?

Still all those powers don’t make you God. You just share a fraction of his opulences, and it may be taken away any time if you don’t use them properly. Just to start with authentic yoga you will have to follow yamas and niyamas: nonviolence, truthfulness, refrainment from stealing, celibacy, renunciation from possessions, cleanliness, contentment, austerity, study of scripture and …devotion to God.

You must have glossed over this entire section of my last post:

If you could perform even half of the siddhis Patanjali describes you could not be called limited. Here are just some of the powers Patanjali describes:

Knowledge of the entire solar systems, star systems
Knowledge of all of ones past births and past
Knowledge of the future
Knowledge of the thoughts of all other beings
Knowledge of the entire constitution of ones body
The power of invisibility
The power of living without food or water
The power of invincible strength
The power of clairvoyance, clairaudience, clairsentience
The power of entering and controlling any other body
The power of levitation and flying
The power of teleporting to any point in space
The power to control the gross and subtle elements
The power to increase ones size and decrease ones size

Here is where Patanjali makes it explicitly clear that the power one gains are unlimited:

3.48: Mastery over the sense organs is gained by samyama on the senses as they correlate to the process of perception, the essential nature of the senses, the ego-sense and to their purpose
3.49: From that, the body gains the power to move as fast as the mind, the ability to function without the aid of the sense organs and complete mastery over nature(prakriti)
3.50: By recognition of the distinction between sattva(the pure reflective aspect of the mind) and the Self, omnipotence and omniscience is gained.

3.56: When the tranquil mind attains equal purity to that of the Self, there is absoluteness.

Simply put, Patanjali is saying you can eventually become a omniscient and omnipotent being. If that is not a god, then tell me what is?

Quote:
Where do the yogis get their power from? They have to undergo severe austerities to get them.
According to Patanjali these powers all come by themselves as a result of ones spiritual development, they need not be strived for.

3.34: Or, the knowledge that dawns by spontaneous intuition(through a life of purity), all the power comes by themselves

4.1: Siddhis are born of practices performed in previous births, or by herbs, or through mantras, austerities or samadhi

There are indeed countless examples of how ordinary pious humans have developed powers and abilities, like monks, saints etc

Patanjali here is saying our powers are nothing less than a god. He is not saying a fraction, he is saying our powers are absolute. He is also saying all these powers will come naturally to us as a direct result of our spiritual evolution and our practice of Yoga and attainment of Samadhis. He also says they can come from direct austerities, mantras and even herbs and drugs.

How do you answer this?

Absolute Truth is understood in three aspects- brahman, paramatma and bhagavan. Perfection in jnana-yoga leads to the realization of the brahman aspect - sat or being. I am, I am part of the whole, I am part of brahman, I am of the quality of brahman. In this way the jnani feels aham brahmasmi - I am that brahman.

If this is not an obvious example of fudging words, then I don’t know what is :wink: The original Vedic saying is “Aham Brahmasi” meaning “I am Brahman” It does not say “I am a part of Brahman” or “I am of the quality of Brahman” or “I am the energy of Brahman” It directly and explicitly affirms identity with Brahman.

However, I understand your need to reinterpret this statement in order to rationalize and justify your devotional beliefs in your god Krishna. Indeed, the entire Dvaita movement which predominantly was spearheaded by Vaishnavists(worshippers of Vishnu in the form of Krishna or Rama) was an attempt to reconcile Vedanta with Vaishnavism, leading to the many off-shoot traditions of Vedanta like Dvaita and Vishvadvaita.

The notion that one is identical to god is a radical assertion that servile religious devotees do not like and resist against or even attack. The great Sufi saint who proclaimed similarly, “I am the truth” was beheaded. Jesus, stopped short of saying he was god, but instead called himself the son, and hinted at his identity with god sometimes, and was crucified. Catholic mystics later proclaimed similar truths, but out of fear of persecution diluted their revelations by declaring, “I am one with god”

“I am one with god” sounds a lot better and digestible to others than I am god" But I frankly give a damn about others :smiley: I am god, and one day I will definitely realize this. You will worship me mortal :smiley:

Made in gods image. Something happened,then man became like “us” it says. Knowing good in evil. Don’t let him know of the fruit of life! Or he will live forever. One with God and being God are the same. When you are a God surya. Your mortal thoughts. Mortal feelings. Mortal perception. All these will change. I hope you do become a God Surya. For you will either leave this reality. Or wish to liberate others from the bondage of ignorance. You will either care, or not care. But please. Do not repeat history and find pride is being worshipped. When you stand on the universe. I believe you should give a crap less about being worshipped. Find liberation, peirce reality with the needle of truth,and the thread of control. And make reality your servant. Then rest yourself in your on intoxicating and refreshing joy. Enter eternity Surya by becoming it :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Avatar186;75787]Nicley said.
But is not the way
An adult treats a child based on the maturity of the adult?
;)[/QUOTE]

An adult treats a child like a child. There would be a lot of problems if the adult started to treat the child like an adult, or if the adult themselves acted like a child with the child.

In transactional analysis psychology all relationships are modeled on the principle of child, adult and parent, when relationships are mismatched, this leads to psychological and behavioural problems.

Some examples of proper relationships dynamics
Parent to Child "Clean your room"
Child to Parent "I will do it later"
Parent to Child, “No, clean it now”

If instead the parent took on the role of child, it would lead to improper relationships dynamics and relationship problems:

Parent to Child "Clean your room"
Child to Parent "I will do it later"
Child to Child “Ok, lets play computer game till then”

The same is true of your relationships with animals. If you do not play the role of the adult with your dog for example, the dog will no longer respect your authority and will start to misbehave with you.

This is why it is important to assume the correct role in relationships. In the context of this discussion the correct relationship dynamic between a god and a human is one of master and servant, teacher and student or ruler and ruled, or even consumer and consumed.
The human would naturally submit and bow to a god. Heck, humans will submit and bow to anybody a little more powerful than them, such as a celebrity or a boss at work.

Again as the Vedic Risis say, “Humans are food for the gods” I repeat I would have no reason to be humble or fear you if I had the power to reduce you to ashes in the blink of an eye. You would, on the contrary, have every reason to fear me.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75855]If this is not an obvious example of fudging words, then I don’t know what is :wink: The original Vedic saying is “Aham Brahmasi” meaning “I am Brahman” It does not say “I am a part of Brahman” or “I am of the quality of Brahman” or “I am the energy of Brahman” It directly and explicitly affirms identity with Brahman.

However, I understand your need to reinterpret this statement in order to rationalize and justify your devotional beliefs in your god Krishna. Indeed, the entire Dvaita movement which predominantly was spearheaded by Vaishnavists(worshippers of Vishnu in the form of Krishna or Rama) was an attempt to reconcile Vedanta with Vaishnavism, leading to the many off-shoot traditions of Vedanta like Dvaita and Vishvadvaita.[/QUOTE]

I am brahman qualitatively, not quantitatively. It needs to be commented because some people might consider themselves the whole brahman, although it is obvious they aren’t :p.
The personal interpretation of Vedanta is as old as the impersonal, as both are eternal. There is an eternal dispute if God is personal or impersonal. This cannot be settled by logical argument, because God cannot be attained by logic alone. What can be understood by philosophical reasoning is that the soul is not part of the material world, it is part of something higher. What that higher is has to be experienced. Srimad Bhagavatam says it can be experienced as all pervading impersonal brahman, as paramatma and as bhagavan. The bhagavan aspect of God is only revealed to the personalists, because others have no desire to experience it. Those who aspire for spiritual perfection without a personal relation with God can achieve brahman realization (generally through jnana) or paramatma realization (generally through mystic yoga).
There has been so much discussion on this issue by people of a much higher caliber than we are. Naturally each group has its followers. Ultimately God is both personal and impersonal because Absolute contains everything.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75854]You must have glossed over this entire section of my last post:

Patanjali here is saying our powers are nothing less than a god. He is not saying a fraction, he is saying our powers are absolute. He is also saying all these powers will come naturally to us as a direct result of our spiritual evolution and our practice of Yoga and attainment of Samadhis. He also says they can come from direct austerities, mantras and even herbs and drugs.

How do you answer this?[/QUOTE]

These powers are in fact impressive feats, but they are all material. Modern science has made available many of them for common people like you and me. I agree that these powers do make you a god, in the sense of a very powerful being in this world. The pure soul has the power of omniscience as it is beyond the gunas and can thus understand past, present and future. And is it also free to move and manipulate material nature, being free from passion and ignorance. However, the desire to control is born out of passion and again binds the soul and obscures its vision. Therefore a pure soul only acts in complete accordance with God’s desire (pure bhaktas) or it completely ceases to act (pure jnanis).
And even the pure soul cannot attain the level of Isvara’s omniscience. In Yoga Sutras 1.25 Patanjali says:

tatra niratisayam sarvajna-bijam

“In him (Isvara), the seed of omniscience is unsurpassed.”

Why is it obvious we aren’t?
If Brahman is outside of time, space and causality,then there can be no question of dichotomies like parts and whole, quality and quantity, good and evil etc existing within Brahman.
How I see it, is that your finite mind is trying to comprehend the infinite, using human language and its finite verbal concepts. I accuse you(used for dramatic effect :D) of doing what many religious people have been doing for eons: anthromorphisizing ‘god’ - understanding god through human concepts.
But we agree that god is beyond human logic, but if we agee then we should not make any positive or negative statements about god. In fact the best attitude is the Buddhist attitude: be agnostic.
However, what we can know about as you just said yourself, is that ‘I’ the soul am not bound by matter in any of its forms, time, space, energy, mind and by its laws causality. I am enterally free from matter.
Whether there is a god or not is irrelevant, the fact remains that I am [I]like[/I] a god and share the same glories and powers, as Patanjali also affirms my powers are infinite. I am not going to spend my life serving some ‘god’ that may or may not exist, but I can focus on what I know exists for certain,’ I’ I am, and that is what matters. ‘I’ matter the most.

What can be understood by philosophical reasoning is that the soul is not part of the material world, it is part of something higher. What that higher is has to be experienced. Srimad Bhagavatam says it can be experienced as all pervading impersonal brahman, as paramatma and as bhagavan. The bhagavan aspect of God is only revealed to the personalists, because others have no desire to experience it. Those who aspire for spiritual perfection without a personal relation with God can achieve brahman realization (generally through jnana) or paramatma realization (generally through mystic yoga).

What you call the Bhagvan aspect the impersonalists call Saguna Brahman, or otherwise as I stated previously the anthomorphic god, god understood through human language and its concepts. God as father, god as mother, god as beloved, god as son, god as holy spirit, god as Vishna, as Shiva, as Allah, as Jehova. However, it is clearly a fallacy that god can be described, because the infinite which can be described, is not the infinite. Therefore Saguna Brahman is regarded only to be a human fantasy or fiction. It is not the real Nirguna Brahman the actual Brahman beyond human understanding and imagination. This Brahman defies human understanding. This Brahman all the wise have said is beyond words and description, but the closest attempt they have made to capture this Brahman in words is through the subjective experience one has had in Brahman realization(Brahma Jnana) as sat, chit and ananda. These are the logical indicators of what Brahman is: existence truth, pure awareness/consciousness and pure peace. However, these are merely indicators, and are meaningless to anybody who had not had the same realization.

One of the greatest Bhaktas of our modern times Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa, a great devotee of the Divine mother, spent his entire life worshipping his Saguna Brahman in the form of the divine mother. He too had revelations and visions from the divine mother. In later life, he realized that he could substitute his Saguna Brahman of divine with any other Saguna Brahman, Allah, Jesus/Jehova, and attain the same realization. Ironically, in the end his understanding of Saguna Brahman was pierced by a vision of the divine mother himself, bringing him to Nirguna Brahman realization.

I am not going to shoot myself in the foot by saying Nirguna Brahman has no personality, if there is a personality and whatever that personality is, it is futile me even trying to imagine it with this finite mind. I certainly reject what human books say that he has thousands of heads, wears golden ornaments, and smells of sandlewood or that he lies reclined on cosmic snake being tended to by the universal goddess, or has a throne in heaven, next to his son Jesus, or is a blob of energy floating in the 7th heaven :smiley: I mean come on, how can grown adults believe such nonsense?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75853]Sorry, I don’t agree it is the soul’s nature to serve. If it was the soul’s nature to serve then why does the soul resist every rule and law you impose on it? Look at any living creature and you will see it resists any rules and laws you impose on it, whether that be the wild horse when you try to tame it, or a child who will resent any law you put on it. Indeed, if the soul was servile, then there would be no need for imposing morality, security and policing from the outside, the very fact they exist shows how difficult it is to make the soul obey and serve.[/QUOTE]

In a diseased state of consciousness the soul wants to lord it over material nature. We are always serving because it is our nature. In a healthy state of consciousness we serve God and in an insane state we serve our dog. We are under the dictation of our insane mind, and we are always serving our material senses. The stomach says “now give me food”, the eyes say “now let me see a beautiful woman (or handsome man)”, and the genitals say “now satisfy us”, and we are running just to please them. And we think that this is freedom.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75853]People recognize there is something greater and revere it, does not mean that that something they worship exists or really is holy :smiley: The tendency for worship is indeed also a primal instinct and again we can see from the beginning of history of humans that humans have been worshiping something or the other, natural phenomenon like fire, animals, trees or other humans, or conceptual things like concepts of god, images, ideas. In order to understand why humans do this we need to look into the psychology of humans and their motivations for worship, rather than the objects that they worship. Then we will realize there is something inherent within human psychology which recognizes subconsciously something greater, a higher power, but not as something which is externally existent, but something which is our essential nature. This is something the Vedic Risi’s also realized: There IS a higher power and this higher power is intrinsic to our essential nature - Atman = Brahman.[/QUOTE]

The spirit soul is of the higher energy and material nature is the lower energy (Bhagavad-gita 7.4-5). Then the question is how can the lower nature control the higher? Because the spirit soul is minute! It can be covered up bey material nature. The minute soul has to connect with the supreme soul to maintain its independant nature.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75853]Indeed as the Vedic risis say, “Selfishness is the basic motive behind ever action” Everybody acts only out of self-love. The most dearest thing to is indeed our own self. It’s verily our nature to be selfish. Selfishness is divine.[/QUOTE]

Acts out of selfishness result in karma, they bind you to material laws, causing material enjoyment and suffering. Selflessness is divine, it is the spontaneous desire to act in harmony with God. God himself is never selfish. He acts for the benefit of all his parts since time inmemoriable.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75853]But the fact that some of you humans want to be servile is great for us gods, all gods can do with good servants :wink: So let me guess you worship the god Krishna?[/QUOTE]

One should be determined to get out of all kinds of inferior service and only serve the Supreme Lord. I think Krishna is that Supreme Lord. He is called by other names in other traditions, but that doesn’t make any difference - God is always God, no matter by which name he is known.

Samkhya-Yoga, Advaita, Buddhism and Jainism are probably the most enlightened traditions I have come across when it comes to the question of ‘god’ The question of god is irrelevant - ones own self and ones liberation is the most important.

Selfishness is divine.

Therefore a pure soul only acts in complete accordance with God’s desire (pure bhaktas) or it completely ceases to act (pure jnanis).
And even the pure soul cannot attain the level of Isvara’s omniscience. In Yoga Sutras 1.25 Patanjali says:

tatra niratisayam sarvajna-bijam

“In him (Isvara), the seed of omniscience is unsurpassed.”

Patanjali does not say anything about acting in accordance with ‘god’s will’ :smiley: He says that the the siddhis will come to anybody who practices Yoga, or even through other means like mantras and herbs, drugs etc. He does not take into consideration whether those people have good or evil intentions. Simply put: Anybody that masters Yoga will attain the powers. ‘God’s will’ is irrelevant.

Yes Patanjali does say that in Ishvara the seed of omniscience is unsurpassed, however he also makes it clear that the witness and self is identical to ishvara and also says the souls can also attain omniscience and omnipotence. Patanjali makes no distinction between ishvara and the liberated purusha(the self). They are identical. The terms self, witness and ishvara are used synonymously by him. There is no real difference.