Selfishness is a virtue

Spirituality
#61

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75544]Yes, I am familiar with the notion of dharma :wink:
However, what I am saying is there is no law that is binding for me. We break the so-called laws all the time. Once it was said that no object heavier than air can fly, then came airplanes; then it was said that no object can travel faster than sound, then came the jet engine. Now it is said that no object can travel faster than the speed of light, but we already know information travels faster than the speed of light in quantum tunnels.

Laws are made to be broken. There are no laws that can bind us. Anything that is an object for us can be changed and manipulated by us. Nature does our bidding.[/QUOTE]

You are bound by your Karma.
Karma being a broad term to cover a few certain laws of which we are all under. I can’t beleive you still waste your time with untruth. But the desert is vast, and hot, and I’m thirsty.

#62

Yes. That is exactly true. But once one law.is broken, a new law is creates :wink:
An aghori’s whole purpose is to break laws.
"Burn everything down that comes between you and truth!"
When you burn, look at the ashes Surya. :wink: look at what remains after it has been tested by fire.

If you with to break ALL rules. You must learn the art of transformation.
their was a bhakti. He would yell curse scream and throw things at his stone diety. Then he would cease and go into bliss. The diety did nothing. It is stone!!! But it is easyer to become enraged when you have an object to become angry at. It its easyer to be angry at someone than no one. Anyway what a tantric! This man was performing internal transformation using the heat of anger. I’ve done it, its easyer. But I seek a greater method. “Same path different method” I will not use the fire of anger.
My point! Did this man not learn to make anger holy? Now even anger transforms him bringing the light of bliss. What u do matters not. How you use it matters.
the right thing in the wrong way is wrong. The wrong thing inthe right way is right. Thus is the philosophy of transformation. Know how to use all things in the right way, and the universes laws will bend.

Oh! It use to be said that nothing could go faster than the speed of sound. But that was never a law! Etc etc :slight_smile: you are subject to the laws of creation Surya. Accept it. Now use creation agienst.itself. then creation will be subject to you :slight_smile:

#63

I am not subject to any law, it is only my body and mind which is subject to law. I am outside of causality.

#64

Then you have complete control over mind and body? you would already be a master then no?

#65

The ‘I’ never gets bound, is never in time, space or causality. Hence I am saying “I am” not subject to any law. The body and mind are bound, I am not. Now what is the explanation for why I am not a master? The reason is my ‘I’ is falsely identified with body and mind. I reverse the identification by first affirming my true identity and disentangling myself from the web of body and mind.

No laws can ever bind me. The laws of man or the laws of nature.

#66

Ahhh i understand. see see! we were thinking differently. Who knew that one would happen to happen eh? :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway.

You say i am. but isnt “I AM” a self identification as well?
clean crystal ball = no self identification
mud= self identification

It is as if you have a crystal ball. if you have no self identification, but you still say i am. I AM is a speck of mud, the size of a grain of rice, on your crystal ball.

If you affirm your true identity, you are self identifying still.
lmao. it is truly a tricky game is it not?

To be void of all self identification without dying, now that is a trick. For dont you see? shakti works in your body, because it self identifies with the body.
In this sense, i see two choices. Completely Dissolve into the eternal and leave this world. Or, learn to make a golden body first. " the imperishable body"
Even then.
LOL it is all a tricky deal. Getting back to the eternal.
I once heard a story. It was that the rishi’s, strove to get closer and closer to eternity. But no matter how close they got, their was still space inbatween them and eternity. thus they eternally try to get closer and closer to eternity. :stuck_out_tongue: Now isnt that ah b**** :stuck_out_tongue:
ah!!! and i guess that is why you can never reach eternity! you can never grab eternity you can never arrive at eternity for it is forever!
So like the Taoists said. Become eternity!
:slight_smile:

#67

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75595]The ‘I’ never gets bound, is never in time, space or causality. Hence I am saying “I am” not subject to any law. The body and mind are bound, I am not. Now what is the explanation for why I am not a master? The reason is my ‘I’ is falsely identified with body and mind. I reverse the identification by first affirming my true identity and disentangling myself from the web of body and mind.

No laws can ever bind me. The laws of man or the laws of nature.[/QUOTE]

Time and space and causality are phenomenon of creation or maya - and you are not free of it. Therefore you are bound. Even the Buddhas are still under the Law.

#68

Of all objects in space dissapeared. Their would be no time. For time is the measurements of movement. Time not existing. We look at space. We know its their. Yet space being more real than time, is even more ungraspable. For time exists in space. Thus space is the master of time.
Einstein was obsessed with the concept of time I believe no? If only he woulda been obsessed with space!

#69

Anyway kriya yoga!

#70

It is as if you have a crystal ball. if you have no self identification, but you still say i am. I AM is a speck of mud, the size of a grain of rice, on your crystal ball.

If you affirm your true identity, you are self identifying still.
lmao. it is truly a tricky game is it not?

To be void of all self identification without dying, now that is a trick. For dont you see? shakti works in your body, because it self identifies with the body.
In this sense, i see two choices. Completely Dissolve into the eternal and leave this world. Or, learn to make a golden body first. " the imperishable body"
Even then.
LOL it is all a tricky deal. Getting back to the eternal.
I once heard a story. It was that the rishi’s, strove to get closer and closer to eternity. But no matter how close they got, their was still space inbatween them and eternity. thus they eternally try to get closer and closer to eternity. :stuck_out_tongue: Now isnt that ah b**** :stuck_out_tongue:
ah!!! and i guess that is why you can never reach eternity! you can never grab eternity you can never arrive at eternity for it is forever!
So like the Taoists said. Become eternity!

And what is eternity? To answer this you will need to use words, as I have to describe ‘I am’

Body and mind are things we can locate within time, space and causality. I can say my body is such and such shape and such and such age. I can say my mind is at such and such place and such and such time. However, the ‘I’ I cannot locate anywhere.

If I say that I am typing this post right now, then what I am really saying is that this body is typing this post right now. If I say “I am thin” I am saying the body is thin. If I say I am intelligent. I am saying this mind is intelligent. In other words no description I use ever describes the I, because the I never is an object of my perception. It is never enters into space, time or causation. Hence the ‘I’ is spaceless, timeless and uncaused.

What does this mean practically? It means that I cannot be destroyed. I will survive death. I will survive even if the universe were to cease to exist. It also means I cannot be located anywhere. I am everywhere, yet nowhere at once. I never grow old, because I was never born, hence I can never die. I am not bound by anything, because I neither effect or cause.

It is right to say that which is beyond time, space and causality is god. I am god. I recognize who I am. I know that as I disentangle myself from the web of matter gradually I will realize that truth in experience as well. More and more of my powers will become unlocked as I disentangle myself. I will transform myself into a god.

#71

Except I is a sound. With meaning. As thought is a substance . Consciousness, sees with sight,hears by sound,taste by moisture,smell by air,and feeling through touch. When this dissapears. And their is no I for the subtle impression that exists when you say I goes poof. Then.

#72

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75441]At this moment, I have no definite path. I am at a weird point in my life where I am just exploring my desires, fears and anxieties. All spiritual stuff has been put on the backburner for now. Not done any Yoga or meditation for months. But I am increasingly finding myself drawn back to it. I hope this current phase I am in is over soon, for I understand that my real goal in life is much bigger than this.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps spiritual growth is determinable by diminishing apprehension of spiritual growth, a dwindling anxiety for liberation that would allow a state of natural functioning, a state where the personal/separate/independent/self-governing entity can never exist.

#73

[QUOTE=Avatar186;75707]Except I is a sound. With meaning. As thought is a substance . Consciousness, sees with sight,hears by sound,taste by moisture,smell by air,and feeling through touch. When this dissapears. And their is no I for the subtle impression that exists when you say I goes poof. Then.[/QUOTE]

I have interest in what you write but the first thought to enter my consciousness after reading this was; ?If the five senses where to be eliminated is there still not a sense of {I AMness}?? Ironically this is where spirituality must begin because when consciousness goes away the world goes away, the sense of being alive and present (I AM), without consciousness there are no inquiries into the grand illusion.

#74

[QUOTE=Avatar186;75707]Except I is a sound. With meaning. As thought is a substance . Consciousness, sees with sight,hears by sound,taste by moisture,smell by air,and feeling through touch. When this dissapears. And their is no I for the subtle impression that exists when you say I goes poof. Then.[/QUOTE]##

Well ‘I’ is a word to describe our sense of self. However, the self is not sensed by either of our 5 senses or the mind. If you take away the sense of sight, sound, taste, smell and feeling, the sense of self still remains.

It is easy to prove that the ‘I’ does not depend upon either of the senses to exist, because it still can exist if either of the senses go. It even continues to exist in the state of deep sleep. The self is not an object of sense like everything else we experience is, it the power itself which allows sensing to take place. The Yoga sutra confirms this: “The witness is nothing but the power of seeing” This why we can never sense our ‘I’ as an object of our perception, but the ‘I’ is present in everyone of our experiences.

The philosopher David Hume argued similarly that whenever he tried to find his ‘I’ he found nothing but a bundle of constantly changing sensations, thoughts and feelings. He concluded the ‘I’ was illusory. Actually, he demonstrated what the Vedic sages of India had been saying for millenia: The ‘I’ can never be objectified. The ‘I’ cannot be studied by any of our senses, it cannot be put under a microscope, viewed under an MRI scanner, seen in any kind of way. The ‘I’ cannot also be reasoned about, because the ‘I’ is not something which ever enters into time and space or causality. Reasoning deals with all things which are in time and space, because reasoning deals with objects of perceptions. All perceptions happen in time and space and and are causes and effects.,

So you may argue how do I know about the ‘self’ if I cannot perceive it and if is outside of perception? That is because the very fact that I exist is self-evident. I do not need any proof for my own existence. I exist that is why there is a world at all. My reason can take me the boundaries of the self and at least indicate that there is something beyond the boundaries, but it cannot tell me anything about what lies beyond it. The closest description that has been attempted of the ‘self’ is by the Vedic sages: Sat-Chit-Ananda or existence, consciousness and bliss - but this merely hints at the self. Only one who has is self-realized will know what existence, consciousness and bliss really means.

#75

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75699]And what is eternity? To answer this you will need to use words, as I have to describe ‘I am’

Body and mind are things we can locate within time, space and causality. I can say my body is such and such shape and such and such age. I can say my mind is at such and such place and such and such time. However, the ‘I’ I cannot locate anywhere. [/QUOTE]

You are the pilot, body and mind are the vehicle. That’s why you are responsible for your actions. You will get the karmic reaction, even after changing the vehicle.

You are controlled by nature. It has covered your consciousness by making you identify with your particular body and mind. You are imprisoned. How can you think you are God? If God can be captured by nature then nature is greater than God, then nature is God.

#76

You are controlled by nature. It has covered your consciousness by making you identify with your particular body and mind. You are imprisoned. How can you think you are God? If God can be captured by nature then nature is greater than God, then nature is God.

I am not controlled by nature, I am under influence by nature. There is massive difference between control the influence. If I am controlled, it means I have no agency or will, I am like a robot or a puppet. If I am under influence, it means that I do have agency or will, but I have certain dispositions will lean me to certain action. These dispositions maybe conscious, subconscious or unconscious. When I became aware of any disposition that influences my actions, I have the power to override that disposition.

Now Yoga is based exactly on that premise that we can override our dispositions and ultimately bring the body, mind and nature fully under our control. If we were the same as the body, mind and nature, we would not be able to gain control of it. The fact is, we are not the same as nature or matter, we are conscious beings and have the power of seeing/knowing. According to Yoga this power is most expressed in the Buddhi(intellect) part of the mind and because it so similar to us, this is why the misidentification takes place and the Buddhi assumes itself to be sentient, feeling pain and pleasure and reacting to the stimuli in the world.

The aim of Yoga is to purify the Buddhi, much like cleaning the muck away from the surface of a mirror, so that it reflects the light of consciousness more clearly. The perfectly pure Buddhi leads to the perfect reflection of the self. Our buddhi is impure, and this is why our sense of self is unclear. Although we are infinite, perfect and divine beings, we do not feel this to be true. As we gradually purify our buddhi we will feel our self much more strongly. Then we will realize that we are indeed god.

To summarize: I am god, but I am just god under the influence of nature /matter. I am conscious of some influences, subconscious of some influences and unconscious of most influences. As I flirt between the different states of consciousness waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep I reveal more or less consciousness. As I evolve, more and more of my subconscious and unconscious influences will become conscious to me and I will be able to gain more and more control over them. Eventually, I will become the master of my body, mind and nature. I will enjoy the same glories that god enjoys. I am a god already, but I am in the process of remembering it.

So does god forget? No, god always remains god. As Yoga says, Ishvara never enters into space, time and causality. Ishvara is never bound. However his particles do get bound, but all these particles are identical to him and will eventually return to him.

I will never lose the sense of my self, even when I become a god I will remember every memory and every past life I have had, just as Krishna remembers all his past lives in the Gita.

Remember, you are speaking with a god right now. One day I will attain full realization and I will remember everybody I encountered and everything that was said to me, and there maybe scores to settle :wink:

#77

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75761]I am not controlled by nature, I am under influence by nature. There is massive difference between control the influence. If I am controlled, it means I have no agency or will, I am like a robot or a puppet. If I am under influence, it means that I do have agency or will, but I have certain dispositions will lean me to certain action. These dispositions maybe conscious, subconscious or unconscious. When I became aware of any disposition that influences my actions, I have the power to override that disposition.[/QUOTE]

You have agency or will and you are not a puppet or robot, but you are the pilot of the robot or machine you are in (the body). Otherwise you could not be made responsible for your actions. But you are under the laws of nature. Your activities are restricted according to the body you have received. You have some freedom but not total freedom. Elevation of consciousness through yoga is possible when we harmonize ourselves with God and his creation.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75761]So does god forget? No, god always remains god. As Yoga says, Ishvara never enters into space, time and causality. Ishvara is never bound. However his particles do get bound, but all these particles are identical to him and will eventually return to him.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with this.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75761]I will never lose the sense of my self, even when I become a god I will remember every memory and every past life I have had, just as Krishna remembers all his past lives in the Gita.

Remember, you are speaking with a god right now. One day I will attain full realization and I will remember everybody I encountered and everything that was said to me, and there maybe scores to settle ;)[/QUOTE]

A particle of God sounds better than a god. :wink:
God is the whole. A particle always remains a particle.

#78

You have agency or will and you are not a puppet or robot, but you are the pilot of the robot or machine you are in (the body). Otherwise you could not be made responsible for your actions. But you are under the laws of nature. Your activities are restricted according to the body you have received. You have some freedom but not total freedom. Elevation of consciousness through yoga is possible when we harmonize ourselves with God and his creation.

I am not the pilot of this body, I am the pilot of the entire body of the universe :smiley: My control is not limited to just this body, in fact I can technically control everybody in nature. It is said in the Upanishads the self hears with all ears, sees with all eyes, the self is not limited to just one body. I am the master of this entire universe, not just this body. This is demonstrated by Yogis who can gain control of another person’s body. Patanjali even mentions one of the Siddhis where one can gain control of another body.

In Yoga one is not limited to the locus of their body. It is possible for a yogi to go well beyond their body - communicate and travel to any location in space, to directly control the elements. Space, time and causality is no barrier. These abilities have been demonstrated by many Yogis throughout history.

Remember in Yoga theory the purusha is not limited in any way by nature. Nature does not just include your body and mind, it includes the entire universe , including every body and mind within it. This is why we are the masters of the universe and one who attains full realization attains the powers of god.

A particle of God sounds better than a god.
God is the whole. A particle always remains a particle

Not when the particle merges into the whole, like when the droplet merges into the ocean it becomes the ocean. Now, for whatever reason there exist fragments of god(the self) but these fragments all eventually dissolve into the oness of the self. Now why do these fragments exist, were they created or are they eternally existent cannot be answered by the mind. However, it is enough to know that at the absolute level of reality you are god. Know that and start to work towards realizing it and you will fully transform yourself into god. Otherwise remain a mortal and worship some other god.

#79

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;75747]I have interest in what you write but the first thought to enter my consciousness after reading this was; ?If the five senses where to be eliminated is there still not a sense of {I AMness}?? Ironically this is where spirituality must begin because when consciousness goes away the world goes away, the sense of being alive and present (I AM), without consciousness there are no inquiries into the grand illusion.[/QUOTE]

Patanjali. Gives the method of absorption "concentrated insight"
He gives the method. And calls it self control. It is the precursor to all “divine abilities”

Consciousness
subconsciousness
Unconsciousness

Absorption is a state of unconsciousness. " you vanish and only the object of attention exists for you have united/absorbed in it.
If you had no senses,you would be in absorption. “Least I suspect”

On a more curiouse note.
Do you know anything about absorption?
for it happens.volentarily every night during sleep. But its mastery seems to be much more.

#80

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75765]I am not the pilot of this body, I am the pilot of the entire body of the universe :smiley: My control is not limited to just this body, in fact I can technically control everybody in nature. It is said in the Upanishads the self hears with all ears, sees with all eyes, the self is not limited to just one body. I am the master of this entire universe, not just this body. This is demonstrated by Yogis who can gain control of another person’s body. Patanjali even mentions one of the Siddhis where one can gain control of another body.[/QUOTE]

When the Upanisads speak about the self in this may they refer to the Supreme Self, not the individual self.

nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam
eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman

“The One eternal (nityo) is cognizant (cetanas) and the many eternals are also cognizant. The One (eko) is supplying all the necessities of life for the many (bahunam).” (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13)

Everyone has powers to manipulate something. Yogis can acquire much more power than ordinary beings, but never complete power. Complete power is the hands of the Supreme God only - fortunately. We would just create havoc, that’s why our powers have to be limited. Where do the yogis get their power from? They have to undergo severe austerities to get them. And Patanjali warns that the eight mystic siddhis are actually obstacles on the path of self-realization. It’s another snare of maya. If you go for them your whole progress in the matter of self-realization is ruined. Everyone has his or her own project for becoming God and exploit nature and other beings. This is the whole struggle of existence because we are all like this. We have to give up our idea of power and control before we can become self-realized.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;75765]Not when the particle merges into the whole, like when the droplet merges into the ocean it becomes the ocean. Now, for whatever reason there exist fragments of god(the self) but these fragments all eventually dissolve into the oness of the self. Now why do these fragments exist, were they created or are they eternally existent cannot be answered by the mind. However, it is enough to know that at the absolute level of reality you are god. Know that and start to work towards realizing it and you will fully transform yourself into god. Otherwise remain a mortal and worship some other god.[/QUOTE]

The particles or fragments never become one with the Supreme Self, they are always one with it. The self is eternally unchanging, it does not become anything else than what it is now. The fragments exist eternally as fragments and the whole exists eternally as the whole.

mamaivamso jiva-loke jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah-sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati

“The living entities (jiva) in this conditioned world are My (mama) eternal (sanatanah) fragmental parts (amsah). Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.”
(Bhagavad-gita 15.7)