Selfishness is a virtue

Spirituality
#161

I agree. That’s why I like you. Analytical square of logic. My favorite.
Unfortunately it is a modern dark age. “Immortality for dummys” and the “big book of everything about yourself” has not hit the shelfs.
As well. Sometimes we search and we find. Sometimes we trip upon.sometimes it hits us in the head.
Not all things are learned through logic. But all is understood through logic.
and all can be understood. Put into words,I can’t vouch for that. But all can definatly be understood.
I searched two years. Seperating bull from genuine. Testing the genuine. Giving everything a two week “absolute” dedication. Analyzing results. Inefficient methods that take lifetimes are just that. Many methods take longer because “time” is needed.
Even the method I am about to embark upon takes a minute. If it is the right method. Ill let you know :wink:
did you know,foul language curses the self? Shoot,darn,crap,all used in a cursing manner are curses.
When we curse,we change the stream of thoughts.

Don’t follow methods that take years. That’s like fishing for years so you can eat now.
Don’t believe in reincarnation. In memory I came from blackness. In imagination I shall return to it.
Take the best from all traditions. If you truly understant them logically. You shall create you own nich.:wink:
Take me. I am about to embark upon something considered medically dangerouse. Yet in 6 years I’ve never experianced an ounce of harm from it. Though this time I’m taking it to an extreme.

#162

[QUOTE=Avatar186;76696]Take me. I am about to embark upon something considered medically dangerouse. Yet in 6 years I’ve never experianced an ounce of harm from it. Though this time I’m taking it to an extreme.[/QUOTE]

You have my curiosity elevated.

#163

searched two years. Seperating bull from genuine. Testing the genuine. Giving everything a two week “absolute” dedication. Analyzing results. Inefficient methods that take lifetimes are just that. Many methods take longer because “time” is needed.
Even the method I am about to embark upon takes a minute. If it is the right method. Ill let you know
did you know,foul language curses the self? Shoot,darn,crap,all used in a cursing manner are curses.
When we curse,we change the stream of thoughts.

Don’t follow methods that take years. That’s like fishing for years so you can eat now.
Don’t believe in reincarnation. In memory I came from blackness. In imagination I shall return to it.
Take the best from all traditions.

I’d be interested in knowing what methods are you talking about that you can master in 2 weeks. As far as I know it takes a very long time for any of the spiritual methods(meditation, contemplation and inquiry, yoga asanas and pranayama, bhakti, karma) to bear result. These practices begin to work on the subtle level in your unconscious mind, and take a long time before any effects can become visible. This is mainly why most people on spiritual paths give up, lose faith, lose enthusiasm, dedicate less time, energy and effort, dabble and mix match. In this day and day especially most people are looking for quick and fast results. I am afraid spirituality does not work like that. It requires sincere and total dedication. It is a life path, not just some trend or hobby.

#164

[QUOTE=Avatar186;76696]Don’t believe in reincarnation. In memory I came from blackness. In imagination I shall return to it.[/QUOTE]

What you write resonates, then and now; Maharaj spoke extensively on this, one reference “Pointers From Nisargadatta Maharaj”: (21 The Seed of Consciousness), free .pdf downloads on the internet.

This is a dangerous part of seeking, we tend to try and confirm notions in our heads and yet life seems too short not to take advantage of those whom have come before us.

#165

Reincarnation is a logical conclusion if you reason correctly. If we cover the main premises of the argument we will be able to arrive at the conclusion. Here is an inquiry to prove reincarnation:

Existence of self

  1. You must begin with a premise that simply cannot be denied, because from this premise the logical truths can be derived. What cannot be denied is the fact that there is a denier. It is self-defeating to deny this premise. So the fact that there is a conscious self that knows, perceives and denies is an undeniable premise.

Category of non-self

  1. If there is a self that is knows, perceives and denies, then there must necessarily be a category of that which can be known, perceived and denied, which is the not-self category. Anything that I know cannot be the self, but rather is an object of my self.

Analysing the differences between self and non self

  1. Now proceeds analysis of the differences between the self and non self. The self is homogeneous, singular, unchanging and constant, the non-self is numerous, diverse and incessantly changing. The objects the self apprehends all take place in time and space and are caused(effects) and occur across three states of consciousness: waking, dream and dreamless sleep. Hence non-self includes all of duality: chairs, tables, rocks, the elements, atoms, planets, stars, galaxies - all matter and energy - thoughts, feeling, societies, people, bodies, minds - everything that is knowable. So the self and non-self are absolutely irreducible to one another. The self is spaceless, timeless and uncaused, conscious, aware, knowing. The non-self is the exact opposite.

Establishing the illusory nature of non-self

  1. The not-self has only a dependent existence on the self, for the non-self cannot exist unless the self is there to know the non-self. The non-self can never be known in isolation of the self, thus it always has a dependent existence. The non-self becomes known when the self knows a change in its awareness. As non-self is always changing, hence it never really has any substantive existence. In fact whatever we know of non-self is only a name to a particular form we give to the changes we perceive. Hence non-self only has a linguistic existence but not an actual substantive existence, in the same way chairs, tables are just names for particular forms of a substance, but not actual substances in themselves.

If non-self is not actually existent, then it follows non-self is simply due to ignorance of the conditioned self that becomes mixed up with it, and the real nature of non-self is illusory like the mirage. Therefore, the entire world of duality is an illusion.

Establishing the cause of illusion and how to end the illusion

  1. If non-self is an illusion, then the illusion must necessarily continue until the conditioned self correctly discriminates the self from the non self. Thus the conditioned self remains in a loop of experiencing the duality of non-self until the non-self has been correctly discriminated.

  2. Therefore the conditioned self must necessarily continue in duality of non-self until it has achieved self-realization. Physical death therefore cannot lead to the end of the conditioned self, it therefore must continue in duality of non-self unless it has achieved self-realization.

  3. In order for the conditioned self to correctly discriminate the self from the non self, it must be in a condition of objective consciousness, to be able to perceive between this and that. This is only possible in the physical state or waking state of the world which requires a physical body as a vehicle to navigate. Therefore the conditioned self must necessarily take on a physical body to continue its goal of self-realization.

  4. The conditioned self then necessarily takes on physical body after physical body until it has achieved self-realization.

#166

I have refined some of the expression of the argument above now. That is an argument from logic and should convince all rational people. It rests completely on the foundation of the first premise. If you deny the self, such as Buddhists do, then you deny the conclusion too. If you accept there is a self, then you are bound to the conclusion of reincarnation logically.

Now I will argue from theism. If one accepts the worldview that god the creator created this universe for us souls and Earth is like a test for us to do good deeds or prove our loyalty to god so that we may get eternal life with him or paradise, then one must still accept reincarnation or be forced to accept that god is unjust, and cruel, uncaring or irresponsible.

This is because nobody is born equal on this planet. Everybody is born with different bodies, in different circumstances, to different parents. Some are born as physically strong and healthy, others are born weak and unhealthy, or with disabilities(blindness, deafness etc) Some are born ntelligent, some are born dull/stupid/retarded. Some are born with attractive features, some are born with ugly features.

Everybody has a different life, different circumstances, different opportunities and different life spans. Some lead a comfortable life, enjoying good health, wealth and success, while others lead a life of suffering, bad health and failure. Some have to live through horrendous wars, while others never see a war in their life. Some are treated like gods, while others are treated like slaves. Some die as soon as they are born, while others live to 120.

It is easy for anybody to see how unfair this set-up is. If this world was a test for us - his children - then it would only be fair that god made everybody equal and gave them equal opportunities, leaving us to make our own choices and allowing there to be a fair system of reward and punishment. However, if he creates one person who is naturally very aggressive and another who is naturally passive, then how would it be fair to condemn the person who was created naturally aggressive because they committed aggressive acts? If he gives one person a lifespan of 20, and another a lifespan of 100, then obviously one gets less opportunity and chances to redeem themselves than the other. If one is born in poverty and another is born in riches, then how would it be fair to condemn the person who was born poor because they stole?

Simply put, such a god is most definitely not deserving of worship, even if he did create us. In order to maintain the statement that god is just(as many theists believe) and to account for the differences in birth, death and circumstances of people is to believe reincarnation. It is because of the actions done by us in our previous life which leads to the different births, deaths and circumstances. Somebody is born a genius and another born stupid, because the one born a genius had karma to get such a birth in this life. Somebody is born healthy and another born disabled, because the disabled had done had karma to get a disability etc

So reincarnation can be proven purely through logic. It also proves to be the most consistent and satisfactory belief for one who believes in god. Not believing in reincarnation leads one to necessarily conclude god is unjust.

#167

[QUOTE=Avatar186;75093]Selfish
Selfless
these have nothing to do with others.
They have to do with yourself.
one means.
to be of self.
the other.
To be without self.

So!
remember it is not your mind that is angry or fed up with people, it is your heart. For the Condition of your mind rests upon the conditions of your heart. :slight_smile: and that is a secret of life![/QUOTE]

I concur. Well said.

#168

I read a bit. In midst of busyness.
will read and analyze a bit later.

One question real quick.
What is the condition of self in a new born baby?

#169

The conditioned self is the self seen through the prism of the non-self. Thus the condition of the self in a new born baby is identical to the condition of the new-born baby. If that same self is in an animal, then the conditioned self is the same as the animal. The self is basically a clear lens, it will appear to take on the colours of it surroundings(conditioned self) but in actual fact it always actually remains clear.

#170

To add a further explanation for reincarnation not covered directly above. Reincarnation happens for exactly the same reason the very first incarnation happens, indeed creation happens, suns form, planets, life evolves - it happens so that the self may realize itself.
The non-self does not have an independent existence, it existence depends on the self and the non-self serves the self(‘the seen exists for the sake of the seer’, Yogasutras) That is because the non-self cannot serve itself, it can only exist to serve the self who can use it. A bed does not serve itself for instance, it exists for the sake of one to use it. In like manner the non-self evolves exactly what the self needs to complete its purpose of realization. This is why one sees in nature how nature evolves exactly what is needed for a life form to survive in its environment. It does not evolve what is not needed. For example creatures born in dark environments, do not evolve eyes. Bats which are blind need to find their way around so nature evolves for them sophisticated sonar systems.
Contrary to atheist beliefs, evolution is not random, but driven by the intelligence of the self.

Creation happens so that the self may realize itself. Life is no accident. The universe exists for the purpose of life, so that one day life may evolve to a self-aware organism and finally achieve self-realization. (The conclusion is that the universe must necessarily be full of life) The sun exists for the sake that the planets remain in orbit, that they receive light and can harbour life. The atmosphere exists for the sake that the planet be protected from harmful radiation from the sun and that the right amount of gases mix so that life may form. Food exists for the sake that living organisms may consume it.

In like manner the human organism’s body is composed as such that it is capable of complex cognitive processes like self-reflection and meta cognition and supported by a highly developed cerberal-nervous system… Nature then provides the human with exactly those experiences it needs for the human to realize itself. This is why the human incarnates in the first place, taking on a physical body. When the human organism dies, the mind remains wandering in the mental plane in a world generated by its own desires like a dream, waiting for a body to inhabit so that it may continue its purpose of self-realization.

#171

One must be born to be reincarnated, realizing you?re not this body or this body?s mind that everything appears in consciousness through the reflection of awareness rising from the absolute than the idea of reincarnation becomes inane, since that which was never born can never die and therefore not incarnatable for rebirth, otherwise show me the proof. I know the scriptures say it; perhaps the idea arose from religious dogma to keep the weak minded in line? There is awareness of your consciousness but you cannot be conscious of your awareness this is the limited finite ability of the mind, spirituality is infinite, non-dual, absolute?even this attempt at a rational is ignorant?finger to the moon.

#172

[QUOTE=Avatar186;76711]One question real quick.
What is the condition of self in a new born baby?[/QUOTE]

The illusion of duality is not formed until the spontaneous sense of “I AM” comes into play

#173

What you say is truth only at the absolute level of reality. Yes, there has been no birth, hence there cannot be death and therefore there cannot be reincarnation. In fact there has been no creation period. The infinite can never produce the finite. It is surely useful to continuously remember the absolute truth of reality. However, whether you like it or not, you do exist in a conditioned reality, where creation, birth, death and reincarnation do take place. This conditioned reality is known as the practical and relative reality(vyavarika) In this reality you appear to be bound by time, space and causality. So there are certain concessions you need to make, like you need to work to earn a living, you need to eat and drink to continue to survive, you need to engage in necessary purification acts to resolve your karma, purify your intellect etc. It is foolish denying you need to do this, because denial is not going to stop your body from rotting away if it does not get food and water; denial is not going to give you an earning to live a life, denial will not resolve your karmas and stop you from being reborn.

Inaction or laziness is considered the biggest sin in Yoga. We all have to act, for if we do not act, we are compelled by the forces of nature(gunas) to act. We, the conditioned self(the self as seen through the prism of non-self) are forced by nature to work towards our self-realization, this is why we experience pain and suffering. Nobody likes pain and suffering, so everybody is always on the move. Pain and suffering is like an evolutionary kick up the back side from nature.

#174

Yes the show goes on, now with the blissful freshness of awareness. I arose from the stillness into a world I never remember asking to come to, I was handed a death sentence for nothing I did, of course I had questions, ironically it was the exhaustion of spiritual seeking that finally gave me the wisdom to let go and flow, much different than giving up. Yoga deprogramed my mind, Tantra allowed me to exist without becoming entangled and it was the pointing to the moon of Avita Vedanta that caused the illusions of suffering to collapse, even these notions were cast aside.

#175

An analogy I just thought of to explain the point further: Suppose you are in an artificial virtual reality like the Matrix. Somehow you find out about the matrix and the fact that there is real and absolute reality outside of it, how do you get out of the Matrix and enter into the real and absolute reality? As you struggle to find ways to get out of the Matrix, you will still need to make transactions in the Matrix reality, eat the food of the Matrix, talk to the people of the Matrix, read the books of the Matrix. Suppose you find out that there is a method to get out of the Matrix, then you will need to practice that method to get out of the Matrix and you must practice that method in Matrix time.

In like manner we have to make transactions in this relative dualistic reality: eat and drink, work and earn a living, relationships, obey the laws of nature, time and space, and practice the necessary purification acts to eventually leave this relative dualistic reality and enter into the absolute reality. The dualistic reality continues until we have entered into the absolute reality. Physical death does not end dualistic reality, because the more subtle mental reality still continues. In the same way the end of the waking state does not bring an end to duality, because then the dream state starts.

It is not religious dogma that the relative mental reality still continues after the end of the physical gross body, the mental reality is more subtle than the physical reality, and obviously we know subtle things precede gross things. Gas comes before liquid, liquid comes before solids. In the same way the human organism has many coverings ranging from the outer most gross to the inner must subtle: physical, energetic, mental, intellectual and conscious. All of this is non-self. If you peel away the physical layer, the energetic, mental, intellectual and conscious layer still remains. This is why the illusion of duality still continues even after physical death.

#176

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;76653]Sure, it is possible to two people with different beliefs/worldviews to have a discussion, but I don’t understand what is the ultimate point you are trying to make?

The point I was making in my previous post that somebody ultimately has to be right and somebody ultimately has to be wrong. We cannot all be right. I take the position that the Dharmic religion as expressed and enunciated in Vedanta is the most truest description of reality known to humanity, and the Abahamic religion especially as expressed in the orthodox form of Christianity, Judaism and Islam is among the most false of descriptions of reality known to humanity. In fact they are rather insulting to ones intelligence.

Notice, I am pretty unrelenting even within the Dharmic religions, weeding out of the theistic interpretations within it in the Puranic forms with the same impunity I serve the Abrahamic religions. In general any religion that teaches worship of some god is foolish, primitive and superstitious, and useless in delivering humans from suffering. Alternatively, any religion that teaches us to cultivate self-knowledge, to contemplate and reason on reality and being is enlightened and useful to humans to end their suffering.[/QUOTE]

Yes what?s sillier? Someone who ?believes? in god (theist) or someone who ?does not believe? in god (atheist) they?re both beliefs, likes/dislikes illusions of the mind, 7 billion different minds with the potential of 7 billion different beliefs, Truth is not relative.

#177

Tantra allowed me to exist without becoming entangled

The fact that you continue to exist in dualistic reality(conditioned reality) is proof that you are still entangled. The Upanishads says, If you hear anything, if you see anything, if you feel anything, if you smell anything, if you taste anything, you are still in dualistic non-self reality.

We should not prematurely declare our liberation. It is correct to say we are the self, but it is not correct to say that we already liberated/realized or enlightened, because our actual dualistic reality we inhabit contradicts that. Liberation will come when the necessary purification acts have been done, until then it is foolish to claim one is already liberated and it will lead to complacency and stunt ones growth. The utter most humility is needed on the path till liberation happens. Don’t behave like a god just yet, nature will bite you if you do :smiley:

#178

Yes there comes a point where the finite mind and limited language cannot convey the transparency of reality, I proclaim nothing and everything, I?m not special or un-special, I am that I am, everything is.