Interesting. But my question was, are you? Because that would be logical.
Interesting. But my question was, are you? Because, you know, that would be logical.
Ethical consumerism is a more complex form of consumption than simply an either or situation. An ethical consumer will consume ethically in some areas, and not consume ethically in others, but may in the future expand their ethical consumption to include other areas. In my case I ethically consume only in the area of that I consume vegetarian food and do not smoke, but my current lifestyle is hardly ethical in general, in that I indulge in alcohol, sex and consume fast-food and a lot of food I consume is non-organic and local. This is partly due to me choosing a moderate left-hand path for myself to explore certain areas of my life because I can, before I go off to India to live a much more ethical lifestyle(only local and organic vegetarian food, no sex, no alcohol)
Ethical consumption is on a sliding scale. On one end you have breatherians who subsist on sunlight and oxygen and can survive in open environments and live in nature and then on the end you have cannibals who subsist on human flesh, live like animals in jungles and kill. The majority of people are somewhere in the middle.
One can either choose to be more human or more animal.
Eating animals, hmmmm? Let me see.
It causes heart disease, cancer, and is a hideous cruel thing to the animal.
Hmmm?
Do I want to make a cemetery out of my stomach? Hmmm? Would that hinder enlightenment? Yuck! I can’t read anymore. I’ll get nightmares.
Geez, eat a apple, please.
Best wishes, and I hope I wasn’t to offensive but I just wanted to give my two cents worth too, Gil.
[quote=High Wolf;48286]Could somebody explain me what is the rationale behind Yoga and being a vegetarian? Trying not to eat meat due to fear of karma, I reckon, is not a valid argument, but a generally accepted, unchallenged myth.
I don’t eat red meat because it disturbs my stomach. This is something I do, completely based on my own bodily experience. Yet I eat chicken and fish, as it seems, my body needs it.
So explain a valid rationale behind Yoga and being a vegetarian, that is, if you can.[/quote]
Yes, it’s the first Yama: AHIMSA, non violence.
Convinced?
[I]Should[/I] Yoga teachers be Vegetarian?
No.
But they can be.
[QUOTE=panoramix;48386]Yes, it’s the first Yama: AHIMSA, non violence.
Convinced?[/QUOTE]
No. It sounds too buddhist. I am a pagan, and I rely on embodied experience. On what my body calls me to do. And my body says enough of red meat, but still needs fish at the moment.
Have you heard how young Warlpiri people hunts [I]mala[/I] (Australian hare)? Hunter approches the animal, reachs out its spirit, and asks it, if the hunt is ready to give up its body. If the animal agrees, the hunt begins. If not, young Warlpiri hunter ceases the hunt. That is why elder Warlpiri people are often vegetarian, acknowledging the fact that when a person is young, his/her body needs meat.
No scripture, no dogma! Completely based on direct experience!
An act of non-violence growing out, based on worldhood experience.
There is no connection between the [I]concept[/I] Yoga and being vegetarian in my understanding.
There is a connection between [I]embodied[/I] Yoga and ceasing to eat meat.
The reason why meat is bad for your in Yogic science is because it has the preponderance of the quality of tamas(density, solidity, inertia). What this does is lower the vibrational frequency of of your mind and body and this is an obstacle in your spiritual development. As you say yourself you don’t like red meat, this is because red meat has a higher amount of tamas than fish meat(which is also tamasic).
Can you imagine enlightened cannibals? The reason that you may struggle to imagine this is because consuming human flesh is a very high level of tamas. Those who engage in this process then develop tamasic mind and body.
Meat is a much lower source of energy than fruit, veg and grains are. The meat that we consume such as from pig, consume their primary source of energy from vegetarian sources. Part of this energy is used for the development of its flesh. Therefore, we get a secondary source of energy, rather than a primary source. Now, if instead we eat tigers meat, then we will get an even more lower grade source: a tertiary source. This is why tigers meat is not very popular and is suppose to taste horrible. Now imagine eating a human that eats tiger, this is even a lower grade of energy.
There is truth to the statement you are what you eat. There is an Upanishad which explains how the food we consume produces our body and mind. The gross portion of what we eat is used to develop the flesh and the subtle portion is used to develop the mind. If somebody only ate human flesh, they would have very massive bodies and be incredibly strong and be highly violent people. And that is exactly how cannibals are.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48466]The reason why meat is bad for your in Yogic science is because it has the preponderance of the quality of tamas(density, solidity, inertia). What this does is lower the vibrational frequency of of your mind and body and this is an obstacle in your spiritual development.
[B]LOL Really. You sure sound almost like you got it all figured out.
But this is an Incorrect answer. [/B]
[I]As you say yourself you don’t like red meat, this is because red meat has a higher amount of tamas than fish meat(which is also tamasic). [/I]
[B]Again. You think you’ve got it all figured out Mr. Helpful but how do you know the reason he doesn’t like beef but likes fish? Guessing? Does it matter anyway? Are you just flexing your Jnana ? [/B]
[I]Can you imagine enlightened cannibals? The reason that you may struggle to imagine this is because consuming human flesh is a very high level of tamas. Those who engage in this process then develop tamasic mind and body.[/I]
[B]So thats why cannibals are not lit up? They eat people![/B]
[I]Meat is a much lower source of energy than fruit, veg and grains are. The meat that we consume such as from pig, consume their primary source of energy from vegetarian sources. Part of this energy is used for the development of its flesh. Therefore, we get a secondary source of energy, rather than a primary source. Now, if instead we eat tigers meat, then we will get an even more lower grade source: a tertiary source. This is why tigers meat is not very popular and is suppose to taste horrible. Now imagine eating a human that eats tiger, this is even a lower grade of energy.[/I]
[B]You are obviously not a nutritionist. [/B]
[I]There is truth to the statement you are what you eat. There is an Upanishad which explains how the food we consume produces our body and mind. The gross portion of what we eat is used to develop the flesh and the subtle portion is used to develop the mind. If somebody only ate human flesh, they would have very massive bodies and be incredibly strong and be highly violent people. And that is exactly how cannibals are.[/I]
[B]Horses eat grass and they are very muscular. Maybe you don’t have a clue what your talking about? [/B]
Enlightenment is possible with anybody and in many different ways- the zen idea of sudden enlightenment through insight that you are ready for ( read many different zen parables where the master does something inexplicable suddenly and so the student gets enlightened ) If someone who is through personality ready for enlightenment though his culture he lives in may be with cannibals- I can imagine that he could make the leap- but I read Stranger in a Strange Land when I was young, by Robert Heinlein, in it the hero, a very enlightened Michael Valentine Smith, engages in a religious ritual flesh eating, only a little- a thumb- of someone he loved- so he could grok ( a word invented in the book and subsequently made it’s way into one edition of Webster’s dictionary ) his essence. Also, the idea subconsciously may have been planted in my brain by being raised a Catholic and hearing at communion " take and eat for this is my body and blood ". I am joking around here of course, about cannibals etc. I agree with being vegetarian as sattvic etc. Although I believe it is possible though highly unlikely for a cannibal to be enlightened. A fool who follows his foolishment truly, ultimately gains wisdom. I’d rather take a wise path than a foolish one.Namaste
[quote=High Wolf;48411]No. It sounds too buddhist. I am a pagan, and I rely on embodied experience. On what my body calls me to do. And my body says enough of red meat, but still needs fish at the moment.
Have you heard how young Warlpiri people hunts [I]mala[/I] (Australian hare)? Hunter approches the animal, reachs out its spirit, and asks it, if the hunt is ready to give up its body. If the animal agrees, the hunt begins. If not, young Warlpiri hunter ceases the hunt. That is why elder Warlpiri people are often vegetarian, acknowledging the fact that when a person is young, his/her body needs meat.[/quote]
Embodied experience? Sociopaths have them as well…
Imagine that for unknown reasons my body demands human flesh and your spirit accepts to be hunted. Would you be molested when I beheaded you?
Personally I can’t figure out the spirit of millions of captive animals issuing a green card to our professional killers so that the slaughter can begin.
All creatures want to live. Do not feel offended but… Do Warlpiri hunters consume entheogens before departing for hunt?
[QUOTE=TonyTamer;48506 a religious ritual flesh eating, only a little- a thumb- of someone he loved- [/QUOTE] the thumb was in a stew shared by several followers and friends of the deceased.
[QUOTE=TonyTamer;48506]Although I believe it is possible though highly unlikely for a cannibal to be enlightened. A fool who follows his foolishment truly, ultimately gains wisdom. I’d rather take a wise path than a foolish one.Namaste[/QUOTE]
Show me an enlightened cannibal. I mean a real person, not some fictional character.
Of all the enlightened or indeed very accomplished spiritual people I know and have heard of through the ages, not one of them was a meat eater.
There are many in Arizona determined to keep people off the path to enlightenment, it seems.
[B]Horses eat grass and they are very muscular. Maybe you don’t have a clue what your talking about? [/B]
Horses are not human 
Maybe, actually not maybe, you are an arrogant person who thinks you know more than everybody else and love insulting everybody by saying one liners like “You’re wrong” but never actually give any argument or reason.
It is not really worth responding to anything you say. That point I could respond to because there was vaguely an argument there, otherwise most of your posts consist of empty space – reflecting something perhaps 
[QUOTE=panoramix;48509]Embodied experience? Sociopaths have them as well…
Imagine that for unknown reasons my body demands human flesh and your spirit accepts to be hunted. Would you be molested when I beheaded you?
Personally I can’t figure out the spirit of millions of captive animals issuing a green card to our professional killers so that the slaughter can begin.
All creatures want to live. Do not feel offended but… Do Warlpiri hunters consume entheogens before departing for hunt?[/QUOTE]
No, sociopaths don’t do such things. How did you dig up that anyway? :o
Embodied experience means direct experience, hands-on experience, engaging all your sense with your surroundings. Don’t get me wrong, I am an animal lover, and I felt so enraged many times when government approved killing of hundreds of dolphins and called me [I]immature[/I]. Yet I cease eating meat because my body tells me to do. I don’t dig up an old book, read it, and say ‘O that’s good philosophy. Yeah, I can do that’ kind of shit. I test myself first with direct experience.
You are putting consciousness of animals and humans under the same category. This is quite obtuse. Yes all creatures want to live, but death is part of life. A lion cannot survive with vegetables. Then there’d be a lot of anthelops and thompson deers around, grazing ceaselessly, and changing ecosystems in an unsustainable way. You gotta accept nature with its both extremes.
No, Warlpiri don’t use entheogen or other sort of weed. In fact, they can’t afford. They do that ritual to live sustainably and on equal terms with animals. And they continue to do, because it is also a spiritually rewarding practice. Sometimes dingos take their clan members as prey as well. But they don’t go after hunting them in vengeance. They accept it as part of nature.
So my point is, they have a logical, tested reason to be vegetarian. To live sustainably, and in spiritual balance with nature. And my whole point is, favour direct experience, cease relying on old scriptures.
Every being has a natural order. The scorpian natural order is to sting when it feels threatened. The lion’s natural order is to prey on other animals, it is a predator.
The humans natural order is divine. The human is the only organism that has the ability to become self-realized and realise the divine. It is very clear from the fact that the human being is always in search of the transcendental. It is never satisfied with what is apparent, it searches for the transcendental. To the human the search for the transcedental divine is as natural as stinging is for the scorpian. Therefore certain actions are prescribed by the humans natural order: virtue. The human is to be virtuous in its actions. How is it virtuous to kill animals and cause them pain and suffering? It is already inherent within human nature that pain and suffering is something wrong. Why then would we want to cause it to any other living being? What reason? We can survive very well on vegetarian diets, why then is it necessary to kill animals? I asked this question to meat eaters once and I got a very honest answer, “Because we like the taste”
I would buy into that argument if the original human species’ development began as vegetarians and somewhere down the line we added eating meat because it was ‘tasty’. All scientific evidence I am aware of points to the notion that we began as omnivores, eating fruit, plants, nuts, insects, animals, - whatever happened to be around. This seems to be our natural order. Everything else is an invention of the mind.
High Wolf,
I misunderstood what you meant for “embodied experience”, sorry.
Hey, I know you’re an animal lover never mind.
But I subscribe Surya Deva’s words. To me eating flesh in a yogic scenario is like inviting a gang of wild teenagers to an old woman’s house. That’s my direct experience.
[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;48526]I would buy into that argument if the original human species’ development began as vegetarians and somewhere down the line we added eating meat because it was ‘tasty’. All scientific evidence I am aware of points to the notion that we began as omnivores, eating fruit, plants, nuts, insects, animals, - whatever happened to be around. This seems to be our natural order. Everything else is an invention of the mind.[/QUOTE]
Omnivorous simply means that we have a choice. The human can choose to go with natural order or go against their natural order. When they go against their natural order they suffer, and when they go with their natural order they tend towards the divine.
It is clear that that humans have a natural aversion to pain and suffering and can understand it(animals do as well, but animals cannot understand it) Why then would they want to inflict pain and suffering on other living beings, when they would not have it done on them?
For the taste, right?
SD, I don’t know any socially; I don’t think. However my point was that ’ I ’ could imagine it, not that I could provide examples. Just as you can not provide examples of the set of all cannibals that necessarily doesn’t include an enlightened member . BTW you are 30 and know too much theoretically yourself, you have no children with a dangerous cancer yet you try to preach acceptance of death to one who actually is going through it. My daughter is doing well at this point and we have a good chance that this new proton radiation will work. Without my saying anything my daughter picked your well-wishing ( not obvious with your words ) post out of all the rest as " creepy ". I wish you no especial ill will but this harshness is intended for you to see what I suppose you won’t see as it’s been shown to you before ad nauseum. Your intelligence is your greatest obstacle to your enlightenment. There is a heart chakra too. I hope you and I and all God’s children go forward together into the light. Best wishes for the future. TT