Enlightenment is possible with anybody and in many different ways- the zen idea of sudden enlightenment through insight that you are ready for ( read many different zen parables where the master does something inexplicable suddenly and so the student gets enlightened ) If someone who is through personality ready for enlightenment though his culture he lives in may be with cannibals- I can imagine that he could make the leap- but I read Stranger in a Strange Land when I was young, by Robert Heinlein, in it the hero, a very enlightened Michael Valentine Smith, engages in a religious ritual flesh eating, only a little- a thumb- of someone he loved- so he could grok ( a word invented in the book and subsequently made it’s way into one edition of Webster’s dictionary ) his essence. Also, the idea subconsciously may have been planted in my brain by being raised a Catholic and hearing at communion " take and eat for this is my body and blood ". I am joking around here of course, about cannibals etc. I agree with being vegetarian as sattvic etc. Although I believe it is possible though highly unlikely for a cannibal to be enlightened. A fool who follows his foolishment truly, ultimately gains wisdom. I’d rather take a wise path than a foolish one.Namaste
[quote=High Wolf;48411]No. It sounds too buddhist. I am a pagan, and I rely on embodied experience. On what my body calls me to do. And my body says enough of red meat, but still needs fish at the moment.
Have you heard how young Warlpiri people hunts [I]mala[/I] (Australian hare)? Hunter approches the animal, reachs out its spirit, and asks it, if the hunt is ready to give up its body. If the animal agrees, the hunt begins. If not, young Warlpiri hunter ceases the hunt. That is why elder Warlpiri people are often vegetarian, acknowledging the fact that when a person is young, his/her body needs meat.[/quote]
Embodied experience? Sociopaths have them as well…
Imagine that for unknown reasons my body demands human flesh and your spirit accepts to be hunted. Would you be molested when I beheaded you?
Personally I can’t figure out the spirit of millions of captive animals issuing a green card to our professional killers so that the slaughter can begin.
All creatures want to live. Do not feel offended but… Do Warlpiri hunters consume entheogens before departing for hunt?
[QUOTE=TonyTamer;48506 a religious ritual flesh eating, only a little- a thumb- of someone he loved- [/QUOTE] the thumb was in a stew shared by several followers and friends of the deceased.
[QUOTE=TonyTamer;48506]Although I believe it is possible though highly unlikely for a cannibal to be enlightened. A fool who follows his foolishment truly, ultimately gains wisdom. I’d rather take a wise path than a foolish one.Namaste[/QUOTE]
Show me an enlightened cannibal. I mean a real person, not some fictional character.
Of all the enlightened or indeed very accomplished spiritual people I know and have heard of through the ages, not one of them was a meat eater.
There are many in Arizona determined to keep people off the path to enlightenment, it seems.
[B]Horses eat grass and they are very muscular. Maybe you don’t have a clue what your talking about? [/B]
Horses are not human 
Maybe, actually not maybe, you are an arrogant person who thinks you know more than everybody else and love insulting everybody by saying one liners like “You’re wrong” but never actually give any argument or reason.
It is not really worth responding to anything you say. That point I could respond to because there was vaguely an argument there, otherwise most of your posts consist of empty space – reflecting something perhaps 
[QUOTE=panoramix;48509]Embodied experience? Sociopaths have them as well…
Imagine that for unknown reasons my body demands human flesh and your spirit accepts to be hunted. Would you be molested when I beheaded you?
Personally I can’t figure out the spirit of millions of captive animals issuing a green card to our professional killers so that the slaughter can begin.
All creatures want to live. Do not feel offended but… Do Warlpiri hunters consume entheogens before departing for hunt?[/QUOTE]
No, sociopaths don’t do such things. How did you dig up that anyway? :o
Embodied experience means direct experience, hands-on experience, engaging all your sense with your surroundings. Don’t get me wrong, I am an animal lover, and I felt so enraged many times when government approved killing of hundreds of dolphins and called me [I]immature[/I]. Yet I cease eating meat because my body tells me to do. I don’t dig up an old book, read it, and say ‘O that’s good philosophy. Yeah, I can do that’ kind of shit. I test myself first with direct experience.
You are putting consciousness of animals and humans under the same category. This is quite obtuse. Yes all creatures want to live, but death is part of life. A lion cannot survive with vegetables. Then there’d be a lot of anthelops and thompson deers around, grazing ceaselessly, and changing ecosystems in an unsustainable way. You gotta accept nature with its both extremes.
No, Warlpiri don’t use entheogen or other sort of weed. In fact, they can’t afford. They do that ritual to live sustainably and on equal terms with animals. And they continue to do, because it is also a spiritually rewarding practice. Sometimes dingos take their clan members as prey as well. But they don’t go after hunting them in vengeance. They accept it as part of nature.
So my point is, they have a logical, tested reason to be vegetarian. To live sustainably, and in spiritual balance with nature. And my whole point is, favour direct experience, cease relying on old scriptures.
Every being has a natural order. The scorpian natural order is to sting when it feels threatened. The lion’s natural order is to prey on other animals, it is a predator.
The humans natural order is divine. The human is the only organism that has the ability to become self-realized and realise the divine. It is very clear from the fact that the human being is always in search of the transcendental. It is never satisfied with what is apparent, it searches for the transcendental. To the human the search for the transcedental divine is as natural as stinging is for the scorpian. Therefore certain actions are prescribed by the humans natural order: virtue. The human is to be virtuous in its actions. How is it virtuous to kill animals and cause them pain and suffering? It is already inherent within human nature that pain and suffering is something wrong. Why then would we want to cause it to any other living being? What reason? We can survive very well on vegetarian diets, why then is it necessary to kill animals? I asked this question to meat eaters once and I got a very honest answer, “Because we like the taste”
I would buy into that argument if the original human species’ development began as vegetarians and somewhere down the line we added eating meat because it was ‘tasty’. All scientific evidence I am aware of points to the notion that we began as omnivores, eating fruit, plants, nuts, insects, animals, - whatever happened to be around. This seems to be our natural order. Everything else is an invention of the mind.
High Wolf,
I misunderstood what you meant for “embodied experience”, sorry.
Hey, I know you’re an animal lover never mind.
But I subscribe Surya Deva’s words. To me eating flesh in a yogic scenario is like inviting a gang of wild teenagers to an old woman’s house. That’s my direct experience.
[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;48526]I would buy into that argument if the original human species’ development began as vegetarians and somewhere down the line we added eating meat because it was ‘tasty’. All scientific evidence I am aware of points to the notion that we began as omnivores, eating fruit, plants, nuts, insects, animals, - whatever happened to be around. This seems to be our natural order. Everything else is an invention of the mind.[/QUOTE]
Omnivorous simply means that we have a choice. The human can choose to go with natural order or go against their natural order. When they go against their natural order they suffer, and when they go with their natural order they tend towards the divine.
It is clear that that humans have a natural aversion to pain and suffering and can understand it(animals do as well, but animals cannot understand it) Why then would they want to inflict pain and suffering on other living beings, when they would not have it done on them?
For the taste, right?
SD, I don’t know any socially; I don’t think. However my point was that ’ I ’ could imagine it, not that I could provide examples. Just as you can not provide examples of the set of all cannibals that necessarily doesn’t include an enlightened member . BTW you are 30 and know too much theoretically yourself, you have no children with a dangerous cancer yet you try to preach acceptance of death to one who actually is going through it. My daughter is doing well at this point and we have a good chance that this new proton radiation will work. Without my saying anything my daughter picked your well-wishing ( not obvious with your words ) post out of all the rest as " creepy ". I wish you no especial ill will but this harshness is intended for you to see what I suppose you won’t see as it’s been shown to you before ad nauseum. Your intelligence is your greatest obstacle to your enlightenment. There is a heart chakra too. I hope you and I and all God’s children go forward together into the light. Best wishes for the future. TT
It all comes down to choice then. Cease eating meat because you feel compassion. Yeah but that depends from one culture to another, and Yoga make you feel compassion about them? Perhaps it does. Then Yoga transcends all cultures in this context.
A friend of mine once said that when you ask some people in the US where their meat comes from, they answer "from supermarket!’ Another friend once also did not hesitate to say me that in South Korea, they eat dogs. In Japan, they eat whales and in some parts of India, they eat snakes.
Perhaps it all comes down to the ability to remove oneself from cultural context and do what you feel right. After all most cultures of our world are disembodied entities.
I can imagine a pink unicorn, does not mean one exists. Do you have actual examples of real historical people who are considered enlightened who were cannibals?
BTW you are 30 and know too much theoretically yourself, you have no children with a dangerous cancer yet you try to preach acceptance of death to one who actually is going through it. My daughter is doing well at this point and we have a good chance that this new proton radiation will work. Without my saying anything my daughter picked your well-wishing ( not obvious with your words ) post out of all the rest as " creepy ". I wish you no especial ill will but this harshness is intended for you to see what I suppose you won’t see as it’s been shown to you before ad nauseum.
Well, thank you for your appreciation for my well wishes for your daughter. I did not have to say those words, and in fact I even silently prayed for her.
I think your daughter found it creepy because as you said she is materialistic and does not really believe in god and supernatural. Not everybody who shared their well wishes for them have children with a dangerous cancer either, so it is interesting you would single me out.
In any case it makes no difference whether my well wishes or prayers were appreciated at all, because I did it selflessly and expect nothing in return. I once again wish your daughter well.
[quote]Your intelligence is your greatest obstacle to your enlightenment. There is a heart chakra too. I hope you and I and all God’s children go forward together into the light. Best wishes for the future. TT
I think true intellgence is enlightenment and compassion. I think people who preach things about “opening your heart chakra” are people who substitute reason for sentiment. True compassion is reasonable.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48533]Omnivorous simply means that we have a choice. [/QUOTE]
This is untrue. Omnivore means we gain sustenance from many sources - plant, mineral, and animal. One of the options of an omnivore is to restrict diet to plant and mineral only, but that requires careful nutrient design in order to replace necessary enzymes, etc. found only in meat sources. That can be interpreted as having a choice, however there are many human omnivores who do not have that choice as it becomes a matter of survival.
This is untrue. Omnivore means we gain sustenance from many sources - plant, mineral, and animal. One of the options of an omnivore is to restrict diet to plant and mineral only, but that requires careful nutrient design in order to replace necessary enzymes, etc. found only in meat sources. That can be interpreted as having a choice, however there are many human omnivores who do not have that choice as it becomes a matter of survival.
Yes, I am aware the technical meaning of the word omnivorous(all-consumer) means we can eat everything - so it means we can have a choice to eat anything. We can either choose to eat fruit, veg, grains, nuts and dairy or we can choose to eat meat, or both.
However, when it is a clear fact that man can survive on vegetarian food and live a healthy life, why would we actively choose to have animals slaughtered so we can eat meat too?
It is a pure myth that vegetarian diets are lacking. There are several vegetarians out there who are healthy people, there are even vegetarian bodybuilders. There is only one reason - and one reason only why humans eat meat - because they like the taste.
Human having their taste buds gratified justifies the mass slaughter of living beings. An enlightened person does not hanker after sensory delights, and therefore there is no wonder they are vegetarian.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;48552]It is a pure myth that vegetarian diets are lacking.[/QUOTE]
I just want to make this perfectly clear - I am all for anyone choosing a vegan or vegetarian diet, or whatever diet they would like. It just does not diminish someone’s credibility or wisdom to me if they are a meat eater.
As for myth, although I am not an expert I have encountered several expert-like articles that point out many drawbacks to plant restricted diets. Here is an excerpt from one such article (many, many others available online - sorry SD, I do not percieve you as a credible expert):
Vegan Diet Cons
Often, it is noticed that people who follow a vegan diet lack a number of essential nutrients. Read on to find problems with vegan diets.
?Vitamin B12 Deficiency: Vitamin B12 is not regularly found in plant food. Vitamin B12 deficiency has many major health problems, like anemia, neuro-degenerative disorders. In lactating mothers, deficiency of Vitamin B12 causes neurological disorders in children.
?Calcium Deficiency: Studies have shown that vegans are more at risk of fractured bones than their meat eating, non-vegetarian counterparts. A vegan diet is very low in calcium, which gives rise to this problem.
?Vitamin D Deficiency: Vegan diet is also low in Vitamin D. It maintains bone density, helps in healthy bone growth and also in maintaining normal functioning of the nervous system. Lack of Vitamin D hampers calcium and phosphorus absorption in the body. Hence, there are rising cases of osteoporosis amongst followers of vegan diets. At the same time lack of Vitamin D can also increase the risk of breast and prostate cancer. Children on vegan diets are more prone to rickets.
?Deficiency of Iodine: In many countries around the world, animal products are used to manufacture iodine. Therefore, vegans shun iodine. However, iodine deficiency causes goiter and hypothyroidism. Soy products are emphasized in vegan diets, but a lot of soy products also leads to deficiency of iodine. If a pregnant woman follows veganism, her child is at high risk of impaired motor function, a lower IQ level and stunted growth, caused due to iodine deficiency. It is important that women who are lactating, pregnant or considering pregnancy, take care adding iodine in their diet. For the unborn baby, iodine is available as folate.
?Omega 3 Fatty Acids: A commonly seen deficiency in vegans is omega 3 essential fatty acids. This acid is important for brain functions, behavioral functions as well as normal growth and development. Omega 3 fatty acid is essential to prevent diseases like heart disease, arthritis and cancer. Deficiency of this acid during pregnancy can cause vision and nerve problems in the child.
?Low Birth Weight: Research has shown that mothers on vegan diet deliver low birth weight babies.
?Malnutrition: Several cases of infant malnutrition and death due to malnutrition have been reported due to a vegan diet.
?Iron Deficiency: Anemia and iron deficiency rates are higher in people who follow veganism. This is because iron from plants is not absorbed in the body as well as the iron from meat. Iron absorption is inhibited due to the fiber, phytates, and oxalates present in a vegan diet.
I am talking about vegetarian deits here and not vegan diets.
I’m a vegetarian. My daughter is a vegan. My reasons for becoming a vegetarian are personal, not spiritual. Did my spirituality guide me toward a vegetarian lifestyle? Well yes. But it is a personal choice. With that personal choice comes a firm commitment too. Vegetarians and Vegans alike must be diligent, making sure they get all the required nutrients. Recent blood work for me came back severely deficient in Vit. D. My daughter was deficient in B12. (your list is correct Flex)
A meat eater can be just as enlightened as the vegetarian. With that being said,
We have canine teeth for a reason. The reason is to eat meat. We have an appendix. While there is debate whether it has a function in modern times, our primitive ancestors needed it to digest. Humans have evolved since primitive times. Today, we no longer need to use our canines to pull apart meat (unless it’s my mother in laws roast!). With this evolution, comes an evolution in how we grow and make our food. Did primitive people know that spinach would give them needed iron? Did they know soy is a good source of protein? No. That came later.
Today, we do have a choice. Right or wrong, it can be based on ones personal, spiritual, religious or cultural morals and values. It is this way because of evolution. (technology too) not because we’ve always had a choice.
Again, the fact that there are vegetarians that can be body builders, live healthy lives and full human life spans refutes the argument that vegetarian diets are deficient in any way, shape or form.
I have seen similar strawman arguments from the opposite camp against non-vegetarianism.