Namaste,
I enjoyed your discourse very much so. You are well spoken and seem to be well grounded in your material, especialy your knowledge of Yoga. However, I have a problem as soon as you said that there were three types of siddhis: actual siddhis, symbolic siddhis and delusional/fabricated siddhis. Where are you getting this from? It struck me as an arbitrary classification you have done yourself based on subjective credulity criteria. So the siddhi of being able to control the temperature of your body is possible, but the siddhi of being able to fly and walk through walls is not? Do you say this simply because the latter sounds too fantastic to be true and the former is within the realms of creduility?
Secondly, you criticise object-meditation and support a more free flowing meditation technique where the mind is allowed to flow naturally. However, according to Patanajli even a free-flowing meditation is an object meditation. Here your objec is the “free flow” itself. When you find you are identifying with the free-flow, you come back to a state of non-identification or witnessing. How is this different from an object-meditation where you keep your awareness on the object and keep returning to the object whenever your awareness goes off it?
“However, I have a problem as soon as you said that there were three types of siddhis: actual siddhis, symbolic siddhis and delusional/fabricated siddhis. Where are you getting this from?”
Out of my own direct experience.
“the siddhi of being able to control the temperature of your body is possible, but the siddhi of being able to fly and walk through walls is not? Do you say this simply because the latter sounds too fantastic to be true and the former is within the realms of creduility?”
Every dimension of one’s being has corresponding laws which apply, just as the laws of the atomic apply to things larger than an atom, and the laws of the subatomic for those objects at a scale smaller than an atom. The physical body has severe and fixed limitations and can only function according to the physical laws which are governing it. One can try as one may for centuries, but it is impossible for the body to fly in the air, levitate, or reduce itself to a size smaller than an atom. But if one means by “walking through walls”, a phenomenon of the astral body, then that is an entirely different matter. But the fact is that with enough desire to believe, one can come to believe just about anything whatsoever. And there has been such nonsense which has been stated in the larger percentage of the world philosophies and organized religions, that unless one investigates into the matter for oneself, it will be almost impossible for one to see into what is real and what is fiction.
“Secondly, you criticise object-meditation and support a more free flowing meditation technique where the mind is allowed to flow naturally”
There is no problem with the concencentration oriented techniques as far as harnessing the concentrative power of the mind or entering into certain states of samadhi, but because it’s nature is to restrict the activity of the mind onto one point, it cannot provide insight into the natural tendencies of the mind from moment to moment. For that, the mind must be allowed to function freely without trying to control it in any way whatsoever. If one’s consciousness is to be integrated with existence in the present, then one’s meditation has to flow throughout the whole movement of life. Whether sitting, walking, lying down, eating, drinking, doing something or doing nothing, the stream of mindfulness continues.
Out of my own direct experience.
Surely this is not your direct experience that the siddhis described were real, symbolic or fictional. It is an opinion you have based on the fact that some siddhis seem believable to you and some do not. You arbitarily accept some and reject others.
Every dimension of one’s being has corresponding laws which apply, just as the laws of the atomic apply to things larger than an atom, and the laws of the subatomic for those objects at a scale smaller than an atom. The physical body has severe and fixed limitations and can only function according to the physical laws which are governing it. One can try as one may for centuries, but it is impossible for the body to fly in the air, levitate, or reduce itself to a size smaller than an atom. But if one means by “walking through walls”, a phenomenon of the astral body, then that is an entirely different matter. But the fact is that with enough desire to believe, one can come to believe just about anything whatsoever. And there has been such nonsense which has been stated in the larger percentage of the world philosophies and organized religions, that unless one investigates into the matter for oneself, it will be almost impossible for one to see into what is real and what is fiction.
You are forgetting quantum laws of nature. They go a bit like this: when you have penetrated deep into the atom you come to a level known as quantum which is non-atomic and all pervading. At this level of the quantum all atoms in the universe are connected. So you can by affecting one atom, affect another atom somewhere else in the universe. This level of quantum also allows you to extract energy from within it from any point in space, to generate forces to move objects.
If you accept it is possible for the mind to penetrate to the atomic level. Then once it enters the quantum level, it has control of every atom in the universe. This is how the other siddhis are possible.
Flying, walking over water etc: Patanjali describes that a subtle force in the akasha known as Udana vayu must be controlled. The result is it causes an upwards force that pushes the human body up. In modern quantum physics a way has been found to channel a force known as the [I]casimir force [/I]from the quantum to push upwards causing objects to levitate. At this moment this can only be done with miscropic objects, but theoretically it can be done with larger objects.
Teleportation: Patanjali describes that one collapse themselves into pure light and enter the channels of the akasha via which they can travel to any location in space. In modern quantum physics ways have been found to quantumize an object and also to transmit information through quantum channels(quantum teleportation)
All these higher siddhis requires one enters into the state of samyama or otherwise perfect resonance or control of matter. They are just as real as the lower siddhis.
It is simply not satisfactory to arbitarily say some siddhis are true and some are false just because some sound more fantastic than others. Even being able to penetrate into the atoms of your body is fantastic.
There is no problem with the concencentration oriented techniques as far as harnessing the concentrative power of the mind or entering into certain states of samadhi, but because it’s nature is to restrict the activity of the mind onto one point, it cannot provide insight into the natural tendencies of the mind from moment to moment. For that, the mind must be allowed to function freely without trying to control it in any way whatsoever. If one’s consciousness is to be integrated with existence in the present, then one’s meditation has to flow throughout the whole movement of life. Whether sitting, walking, lying down, eating, drinking, doing something or doing nothing, the stream of mindfulness continues.
Alright, it is a common misconception that Patanajli’s Raja yoga is concentration based. It is not. Dharana means to an assume an object. Dhyana means to maintain the object and Samadhi is the state where one becomes absorbed in the object. You do not sit there straining your mind on your object, but rather whenever the mind drifts, you acknowledge it and come back to your object. You maintain this until you reach samadhi.
The meditation you are describing is no different. You let your mind flow and you observe it detached. In this meditation your object is the mind itself(dharana) Then you maintain this watching of the mind(dhyana) and everytime you find you have identified with the mind modifications, you come back to detached observing again. You maintain this until you reach samadhi.
Mindfulness in everyday life is not meditation and nor is it a substitute. If it was, then Patanjali would have only prescribed yamas and niyamas and Buddha only the moral part(shila) of the 8-fold noble path. No, these are not enough, this is why they both prescribe formal sit down meditation practice. You cannot get enlightenment by simply washing some dishes with mindfulness.
“You arbitarily accept some and reject others.”
It appears that way. But my understanding is that the body is bound by the physical laws which govern it. You may accept it or reject it, but it is impossible to reduce the body to the size of an atom, although certianly one may come to a state of consciousness where it is perceived as such.
“You are forgetting quantum laws of nature”
One should be careful to start using this as an excuse to believe just about any nonsense whatsoever.
“If you accept it is possible for the mind to penetrate to the atomic level. Then once it enters the quantum level, it has control of every atom in the universe.”
I am certain one would like to believe such a thing.
“Flying, walking over water etc: Patanjali describes that a subtle force in the akasha known as Udana vayu must be controlled.”
I am not interested in what Patanjali has said. And in fact, how do you know that what Patanjali has said is reliable? How do you know that this man knows ? He may simply be deceiving you. You will have to inquire into the matter out of your own intelligence rather than simply accepting whatsoever appeals to your mind, one will have to ignite a certain awareness which is capable of seeing beyond one’s the prejudices of one’s likes and dislikes. That is the quality of a sincere seeker of Truth, one will have to enter into the search assuming nothing whatsoever, in recognition of one’s ignorance. Only then is there a possibility of seeking and finding.
“Teleportation: Patanjali describes that one collapse themselves into pure light and enter the channels of the akasha via which they can travel to any location in space”
I will not say much on the subject except that you should consider the possibility that this is an astral phenomenon. If one thinks this to be physical, then one is simply being foolish.
“It is simply not satisfactory to arbitarily say some siddhis are true and some are false just because some sound more fantastic than others”
You are right, it is not enough. If one is interested in exploring this, one should investigate thouroughly into the matter and practice the methods.
“Alright, it is a common misconception that Patanajli’s Raja yoga is concentration based. It is not. Dharana means to an assume an object. Dhyana means to maintain the object and Samadhi is the state where one becomes absorbed in the object. You do not sit there straining your mind on your object, but rather whenever the mind drifts, you acknowledge it and come back to your object. You maintain this until you reach samadhi.”
That is concentration. Anything which restricts the mind onto one point is a concentration oriented. And as far as the methods of yoga have been concerned, most of the methods in the East are all concentration oriented - focusing the mind on the breath, or a chakra center, a mantra, a yantra.
“The meditation you are describing is no different.”
What I was speaking of is of an entirely different nature.
“You let your mind flow and you observe it detached. In this meditation your object is the mind itself(dharana)”
It is not just the mind itself which one is to be mindful of, but all activities of the mind, body, emotion, perceptions - whatsoever enters the scene of one’s experience. It is not focusing the mind like a lens onto one point.
“Mindfulness in everyday life is not meditation and nor is it a substitute.”
Then one knows nothing whatsoever of meditation. Meditation simply requires an awareness in the present which is capable of seeing without identifying with whatsoever may arise in the field of the senses. That can be done anywhere, the posture is absolutely irrelevant. Neither is meditation some kind of trance or altered state of consciousness, in fact beyond a certain point to remain meditative becomes a natural quality, you need not make an effort for it. That is why one Zen master, Hakuin has said that meditation in motion far surpasses meditation in stillness. Because when you are in your ordinary wakefulness, you can become entangled in a thousand and one different things, and unless meditation becomes as natural as your own heartbeat, then one is bound to become a slave to the mind rather than remain centered, to be in the world but not of the world, in the mind but not of the mind.
“You cannot get enlightenment by simply washing some dishes”
If your inner atmosphere is prepared for it, it can happen at any moment, whether one is in sitting meditation or not. All of sadhana is just towards this, to create an inner atmosphere which is like a prepared vessel for one’s awakening. It is just like a gardener, who plants a certain seed, in the right climate, in the right soil, with the proper care and attention, with the proper sunlight, and takes care of all the necessary ingredients. To that point, effort is needed just to prepare the space. But beyond that point, a certain surrender is needed. And that is why the moment of enlightenment has always happened when one was least excepecting it, because once you have built a certain intensity, just the smallest thing can trigger it. Mahakasyapa became awaked just seeing Gautama hold up a flower. The Buddhahood came to Hakuin just through hearing the sound of a bell ringing in the distance. One Zen master was in the toilet when he heard a frog leap into a pond and became immediately awakened. Ramakrishna was walking in an open field and had a glimpse into his original nature just by seeing a group of white cranes spontaneously flash by his vision. But even after coming to one’s awakening, one will have to come to integrate this consciousness from moment to moment in daily living. That is what has been called in yoga Sahaja Samadhi, when you can remain in a state of samadhi and yet remain absolutely involved in ordinary activities, in the world with all of it’s shapes and forms and yet totally liberated.
AmirMourad, at the quantum level none of the classical laws of physics apply. The classical laws of physics come into operation after decoherence from the quantum. At the quantum level the following differences are there:
Uncertainity: There is no classical determinism where one can predict the motion and path of an object by knowing the position and the momentum, at the quantum level there is uncertainty. This means it works in terms of possibility rather than actuality. At the classical level it is impossible for one to walk through a wall for example, at the quantum level there is a possibility one could walk through a wall.
Non-locality: There is no locality where objects are suspended in time and space and act upon one another by the inverse square law. This states that the intensity of a force between objects is inversely proportional to the distance. If an object is further away its influence on another object is smaller. In the quantum world all objects exist in a superpositioned state. This means you can affect one object, and affect another object simultaneously on the other end of the galaxy.
Weak objectivity: There is no real objectivity as in the classical world. In the quantum world the act of observation itself affects the quantum system and causes it to be collapse a wave of possibility into an actuality. We find the electron at the place where we collapsed the wave, not where it was prior to observation. The observation itself placed it there by collapsing its wavefunction.
Therefore it is a fallacy for you to apply the classical laws of physics to the quantum domain. It does not work like that. As soon as you can enter the quantum level of matter you gain controls over matter that were otherwise impossible according to classical physics.
Such as:
You can exploit quantum uncertainty to pass through solid walls
You can explot non-locality to transmit information faster than light and teleport objects
You can exploit its weak objectivity to affect matter through observation
In addition you can exploit the zero point energy at the quantum level to extract energy and forces to generate free energy or cause objects to levitate
None of this is showing that the siddhis Patanjali and other Yogis describe are impossible. In fact they are supporting that these siddhis are possible according to science. We have even been able to reproduce them using technology to a small extent(particles have been teleported, atoms have been levitated)
I am not interested in what Patanjali has said. And in fact, how do you know that what Patanjali has said is reliable? How do you know that this man knows ? He may simply be deceiving you.
If he is deceiving me, then he is deceiving you too. Your knowledge of the mind is based on Patanjali, you are using exactly his terms and his concepts. Are you finding it difficult to credit your source? Patanjali is a reliable authority on the matters of Yoga and has been referenced over and over again in the field of Yoga up until modern times. Even modern scientists who study Yoga reference Patanjali. He is as authorative in Yoga as Newton and Einstein are in physics.
You are arbitarily picking and choosing what you like from Patanjali, and what you don’t like you dismiss as symbolic or fabricated. Thus it is not your direct experience, as you claim, it is your opinion. You should clarify to your viewers “This is my opinion” and not make factual statements like “Siddhis are of three types: real, symbolic and fabricated”
Patanjali’s method and his predictions of what will happen during meditation have been verified over and over again by yogis and modern scientists. Patanajli is writing from his direct experience and this is evident from how clearly he describes the various stages one goes through, the tips and guidance he gives to overcome obstacles on the way, and his clear scientific language in explaining the process. His authority is not questionable to me. Yours, on the other hand, is 
It is not just the mind itself which one is to be mindful of, but all activities of the mind, body, emotion, perceptions - whatsoever enters the scene of one’s experience. It is not focusing the mind like a lens onto one point.
In this case your object is your senses. Patanjali describes the senses as one possible object of meditatioon. You are still following the same routine Patanjali describes: you maintain your object of meditation in a detached made of observeration. If you find you have identified with the objects - you return to your object.
Then one knows nothing whatsoever of meditation. Meditation simply requires an awareness in the present which is capable of seeing without identifying with whatsoever may arise in the field of the senses. That can be done anywhere, the posture is absolutely irrelevant. Neither is meditation some kind of trance or altered state of consciousness, in fact beyond a certain point to remain meditative becomes a natural quality, you need not make an effort for it. That is why one Zen master, Hakuin has said that meditation in motion far surpasses meditation in stillness. Because when you are in your ordinary wakefulness, you can become entangled in a thousand and one different things, and unless meditation becomes as natural as your own heartbeat, then one is bound to become a slave to the mind rather than remain centered, to be in the world but not of the world, in the mind but not of the mind.
This is what I call the lazy meditators philosophy. The lazy meditator is somebody who does not really want to put in the effort to practice formal meditation regularly and intensely, so they pretend that everything they are doing in everyday life is a meditation for them(washing the dishes, doing the gardening and household chores, walking etc) The truth is they are not meditating at all because their senses and mind are actively engaged in the world. You cannot not identify when you are actively engaged in the world because you need to act based on the circumstances. The cup is dirty - it needs to be cleaned; the mosquito is biting me - it needs to be pushed away; the person is walking in my direction - I need to move aside.
Rather than achieiving chit vritti nirodha you achieive the complete opposite. Your mind and senses are constantly active and you are no more enlightened than your next door neighbour. This is why both Patanjali and Buddha prescribe formal meditation, because only that is going to transform your mind. Not washing the dishes.
There is an absolute precondition you must satisfy in order to enter the levels of mind and that is sense withdrawal. The senses must be reined back in inwards(like the spider withdraws its web) to begin the process of dharana. This is achieived by sitting down, closing your eyes, harmonizing your breath - leading to introversion. Then your mind is fit to assume the object.
That is what has been called in yoga Sahaja Samadhi, when you can remain in a state of samadhi and yet remain absolutely involved in ordinary activities, in the world with all of it’s shapes and forms and yet totally liberated.
Yes, but these people have already put in the intense effort in their formal meditation practice in this life and in previous lives and have finally reached those states. The first level above physical reality which is tamas, is the astral which is rajas, and above that is the causal which is sattva. In order to get from tamas to rajas you don’t need sattvic action but rajasic action i.e., intense effort. You do that by practicing regular formal meditation for several hours a day. Transformation will come 
Surya,
“then he is deceiving you too. Your knowledge of the mind is based on Patanjali”
My understanding is not based on borrowed knowledge. I had been practicing for six years as an ascetic to come to samadhi before I had even known of a man like Patanjali.
“Patanjali is a reliable authority on the matters of Yoga and has been referenced over and over again in the field of Yoga up until modern times.”
I have not said that Patanjali is not reliable, but that one should not accept anything whatsoever unless it has entered into the realm of one’s direct experience. Until then, it remains simply a hypothesis in the mind.
"Patanajli is writing from his direct experience "
That is good, but you have not experience any such siddhi as flying through the air, walking through walls, or reducing one’s body to the size of an atom. And whether such siddhis do or do not exist is entirely irrelevant, what is relevant is to come to know oneself, through and through. It is in this context that I have spoken of the siddhis.
“This is what I call the lazy meditators philosophy. The lazy meditator is somebody who does not really want to put in the effort to practice formal meditation regularly and intensely”
That is not what I have been referring to. That aspect of the practice is important, but in itself it is not enough. One’s meditation is not something that is to be set aside as isolated from daily living. If one is simply meditative for an hour or two, or three or four, and for the remainder of the twenty two hours non-meditative, it is almost impossible for meditation to gather enough momentum which is capable of triggering a transformation. One will simply return to one’s ordinary sleep, to one’s ordinary programming, the same programming that has been manufacturing one’s sufferings for millenia. Even if one comes to an awakening, without it’s integration, it cannot provide anything more than a temporary glimpse into one’s true nature. There have been certain yogis who have been in sadhana for almost their whole lives, but they have remained just as unconscious and asleep as they have always been, no transformation has occurred. On the contrary, they are suffering tremendously -because whether one is clinging outwardly or clinging inwardly, it makes no difference. In one case, one was entangled in the outer world, in the other, one has become entangled in the inner - and a liberated consciousness is such, that one is neither clinging to the inner nor the outer.
Caught in the Buddha-flame of awakening, an eye on the forehead is ignited. But one will have to return to the world, with all of it’s dualism and countless forms. And that is when one will have to come to integrate one’s awakening in daily living. If one remains in mere Nirvikalpa samadhi, one will simply be reduced to a vegetable like existence. That is why in the yogic sciences, enlightenment has never been simply an event, but a process. An event can only be a catalyst to it, but Truth is not something that is to be attained, but something that is to be lived, you yourself have to become the living truth, in direct communion with one’s original nature.
" In order to get from tamas to rajas you don’t need sattvic action but rajasic action i.e., intense effort."
That is true, tremendous effort and energy is needed, this is not a sit and do nothing phenomenon. But through effort alone, it is impossible. Without effort, it is also impossible. Effort is needed, just to the point of preparing one’s inner atmosphere, beyond which an element of surrender is needed. There are those who apply too much effort and miss their entry into the Way . There are those who function to the other extreme, applying too little effort and miss it. When to initiate effort and when to drop the effort, this is something that is to be revealed to the clear eyed.
“This is why both Patanjali and Buddha prescribe formal meditation”
Formal meditation is essential, it is true. But after one’s sitting meditation, one should keep the stream of mindfulness flowing - remaining a witness as to whatsoever arises into one’s experience. That is the problem with many disciples, they practice sitting meditation, but after their sitting they loose all mindfulness. If one continues practicing with this spirit, where one is constantly a witness whether sitting or not sitting, then that meditative quality is certain to blossom as a force of it’s own, one no longer needs to keep pedaling the wheels of one’s effort.
Namaste Amir,
Then we are in agreeement. I agree that in addition to formal meditation one must also bring the meditativeness into their daily life. This is why Patanjali’s Raja Yoga includes the yamas and niyamas as observances one makes in daily life as well, in addition to the formal meditative practice. I agree with your point that one cannot simply do formal meditations for a few hours, and then rest of the day engage in activity which undoes that effort. The path of Yoga is an entire way of life.
I agree with you that true knowledge of something does not come until you have directly experienced it. However, I do not think direct experience is the only test of what is true. To those who have not yet had direct experience of the higher truths that Yogis have experienced, Jnana Yoga is a means towards coming to an understanding of why those truths are true and how they work. Now, I may not have experienced the siddhis of flying, walking through walls or reducing my body to the size of an atom, but I understand the science of how and why they work and this is enough to provide me the conviction that they are real. I have never been failed by my logic and thus my logic is a reliable and valid authority. It is because of this conviction that I am about to undertake the same ascetic journey you have undertaken, next year to reach direct experience of the truths I already know through Jnana.
By the way which tradition were you a part of? Where did you get your training?
wow.
There is so much disinformation in this thread that I wouldn’t know where to begin. So we will go straight to the root.
Bhranti Darshana = wrong ideas
Viparyaya Jnana = wrong knowledge
“Wrong Knowledge” arises when one begins to think that the means taught by the true guide, the sat guru, or by the scriptures of yoga are not the proper means."
WOOPS.
Surya,
“To those who have not yet had direct experience of the higher truths that Yogis have experienced, Jnana Yoga is a means towards coming to an understanding of why those truths are true and how they work.”
The work of other yogis and masters who have already come to the space is significant, and can be of tremendous help. But the problem arises once one starts clinging to their words and descriptions. Then one is bound to be blinded by one’s own short-sightedness. What other Buddhas have said was just intended to transmit a certain flavor, a certain spirit which cannot be expressed through knowledge.
When groping in the dark, one should simply recognize that one is groping in the dark without clinging to any ideas whatsoever of the “higher truths” that a yogi may have realized, yet not discarding them either.
As far as Jnana yoga is concerned, the approach is not merely intellect for the sake of intellect. It is not a philosophical inquiry, but a way of using the intellect as a method towards the direct experience of one’s true nature. As far as intellect is concerned, any situation can be seen from almost infinite number of angles and perspectives, all a finger pointing to the moon. That is the very nature of the activity of the mind. It cannot see anything else beyond it’s own subjectivity. At the most, the mind can only provide an interpretation of existence through the senses. And out of this, a million and one different religions, belief systems, and philosophies have been created. The philosophies of various mystics and yogis are no exception, one can find as many different philosophies as one can imagine. This was impossible to avoid, simply because it is impossible to express the inexpressible. It is like trying to contain the vastness of space in one’s fist. And yet to assist others in the Way, one has to say something about it.
The Way is certainly one, but as to it’s realization, there are countless strategies, approaches, and skillful means. The moment one starts grasping onto knowledge, one immediately falls into delusion. But, even delusion can assist one towards one’s transformation - there is such a thing a useful lies.
“Now, I may not have experienced the siddhis of flying, walking through walls or reducing my body to the size of an atom, but I understand the science of how and why they work and this is enough to provide me the conviction that they are real.”
If you would like to believe that they are, that is fine. If they are real, you still have to breathe through your nostrils and eat through the mouth. If they are not real, you still have to breathe through your nostrils and eat through the mouth.
The Scales,
"Bhranti Darshana = wrong ideas
Viparyaya Jnana = wrong knowledge"
What are standards for “right” and “wrong”, let alone “wrong ideas” and “wrong” knowledge, are entirely relative. The reason why certain masters had started speaking in such terms was not to speak of the Truth, that was not their intention. A master is not in the least bit interested in transmitting the Truth, but in doing whatever is necessary to assist you towards your liberation. The intention was simply to provide medicine, to offer a method for transformation. Part of that method was providing certain models of thinking, not because they are true, but because they can be effective. But, not seeing this, one clings to the corpses of their words thinking them to contain the essence. This is one of the greatest problems in most disciples on the path.
Once, Mara, the Evil One, was walking with his servant in the forest. They noticed a man walking in the distance, radiant in walking meditation. The man suddenly bent over and picked something up.
“Did you see that?” asked the servant. “What has just happened?”
“He has found a piece of the Truth”, said Mara.
“O’ Evil One! Does that not bother you?” said the servant.
Mara said, “No, he is just going to turn it into a belief”.
When groping in the dark, one should simply recognize that one is groping in the dark without clinging to any ideas whatsoever of the “higher truths” that a yogi may have realized, yet not discarding them either.
You have to cling to some ideas. If I do not cling to the ideas of Yoga, Samadhi and self-realization, then why should I sit down and meditate at all? I do it because I have absolute conviction in this ideas. I am convinced beyond a reason of doubt that Yoga works, because of my Jnana.
As far as Jnana yoga is concerned, the approach is not merely intellect for the sake of intellect. It is not a philosophical inquiry, but a way of using the intellect as a method towards the direct experience of one’s true nature.
This is impossible I have found. One cannot reach experential enlightenment through intellectual enlightenment. The clarified intellect only shows the way, but it cannot give you an experience of the way. Insofar as it shows the way it is very valuable. If you have jnana, you will begin the way without any doubt at all and full knowledge of how and why everything works.
As far as intellect is concerned, any situation can be seen from almost infinite number of angles and perspectives, all a finger pointing to the moon. That is the very nature of the activity of the mind. It cannot see anything else beyond it’s own subjectivity. At the most, the mind can only provide an interpretation of existence through the senses. And out of this, a million and one different religions, belief systems, and philosophies have been created.
This is not true. There is objectivity in this world, and this is easily proven by the fact that we all share the same world. If I tell you to go to Paris and see the Eiffel tower, you will go there and you will find it there. There are objective truths that we can investigate like atoms, gravity, elecromagnetism and the laws of physical nature. If something is objective, it is knowable and distinguishable.
Science is a systematic means of getting real knowledge about the world. Philosophers may disagree because they don’t have scientific methods, but scientists do not disagree because they have peer-reviewed, replicable and valid data.
Similarly, the Indian so-called philosophical schools, are not really philosophy but science. They have a scientific method know as pramana and they isolate a certain view of the world and focus on that area. The knowledge they derive is testable(just as my testimony that the Eiffel tower is in Paris is)
The pramana that Samkhya-Yoga philosophy uses is scientific reasoning, through reasoning alone they have been able to describe the entire structure of reality from the physical to the causal. As a fellow intellectual scientist I can follow that line of reasoning and test its validity. This is why I have conviction in Yoga and its methods.
If one does not understand how and why Yoga works and then starts doing Yoga - then they are doing it from faith. It is no good to preach to people, “You must get direct experience” because people first want to know how and why direct experience works.
Patanjali begins the Yogasutras with, “Atha Yoganushashanam” meaning that NOW the moment has arrived to explain the divine science of Raja Yoga. Meaning there was a prelimary before the practice was taught that had to be satisfied.
That prelimary is the intellectual science of Samkhya. I have achieived that prelimary and am about to begin the divine science of Yoga. Now that I am here I no longer need anymore intellectual jnana.
If you would like to believe that they are, that is fine. If they are real, you still have to breathe through your nostrils and eat through the mouth. If they are not real, you still have to breathe through your nostrils and eat through the mouth.
You can also breath through your mouth, but that is a moot point 
I do not believe in them, I know that they exist. With the same conviction that you know the Eiffel tower is in Paris, the Earth goes around the sun and there atoms, electrons and subatomic particles. Again, in modern physics we have even been able to recreate the siddhis using technology; particles have been both levitated and teleported using quantum mechanics. The way this has been done is exactly how Patanjali describes it. It is obvious Patanajli was describing real things, else his descriptions would not match up.
I already know the structure of reality thanks to the intellectual science of Samkhya. I know what comes after the physical is the quantum, I know what comes after the quantum is the astral, I know what comes after the astral is the mental, then causal, then the spiritual. I expect to enter these various levels of reality when I begin my Yoga practice. I have already been to the astral a few times.
“This is not true. There is objectivity in this world, and this is easily proven by the fact that we all share the same world. If I tell you to go to Paris and see the Eiffel tower, you will go there and you will find it there.”
What you have called “objectivity” is not seeing into things as they are, but things as they appear to the senses. And although yoga is a scientific method towards awakening to one’s original nature, it is not intended to make you more knowledgeable, but to move beyond knowledge. Truth is not something that can be forced into the boundaries of our knowledge. In fact, if one is alert one will come to the simple understanding that the more knowledge you accumulate is not the clearer one’s perception, on the contrary, it only brings you closer and closer to the realization of your own ignorance. That is something which even the scientists have been forced to confront, that the more they investigate into nature, is the more one realizes that existence is far more mysterious than one can conceive. And it will always remain a mystery. But there is something more, but it is not of gathering more knowledge, but of an integration of one’s consciousness with the source of existence as a living reality.
What you have called “objectivity” is not seeing into reality as it is, but things as they appear to the senses. Objectively, it can be said that certain facts are true, but it has very little to do with Truth. You can say that a rod is 10 centimetres, and think it is to be objective. But the same rod can be 20, 30, 40, 50, 100, 1000 , depending on it’s rate of motion relative to the observer. In fact, time and space have no objective existence in themselves. This is something which has only recently been rediscovered in modern science, but has been known in the East for centuries.
Coming to the essential matter, Truth can neither be said to be “objective” nor “subjective”. It is simply beyond all of our limiting mental categories. But as far as experience is concerned, in the ordinary wakefulness in which we move and carry our being, it is impossible for the mind to see anything beyond it’s own projections. That would be the death of the mind. Even if you go to the Eiffel tower, no two individuals will ever experience it in the same way. Not only amongst human beings, but the way the Eiffel tower appears to you may be very different for a fly, a bird, a cat, or a dog.
There is a small percentage of one’s experience which is not of one’s projections of the mind, but very few ever come to know of it. And in fact, for one who is awakened, most of what one has been considering as “reality” will simply evaporate from one’s perception. The transformation is going to shatter everything that one has assumed about existence, all of one’s ideas, philosophies, and beliefs will be rendered irrelevant. That is why in the East it has always been said that existence is Maya, it is just like a dream. And being fascinated by the idea of being more knowledgeable, one continues chasing one’s own tail in vicious circles.
“It is no good to preach to people, “You must get direct experience” because people first want to know how and why direct experience works.”
That is why what is needed is to provide an intellectual model, but one should not mistake it for the reality itself.
“That prelimary is the intellectual science of Samkhya.”
Samkhya is not a science, it is a philosophy, just as Vedanta is a philosophy, Advaita is a philosophy, Madhyamika is a philosophy, Yogacara is a philosophy. Samkhya is fundamentally atheistic. The theist will disagree. The Buddhist has very different ideas than the Hindu as to what the nature of existence is. The Jain has a very different idea as to how karma works, than the Buddhist. The follower of Left-Handed Tantra has very different ideas as to what is “moral” or “immoral”, than the average Hindu or Buddhist. The Buddhist or the Hindu monk sees sex as a hindrance, you have to remain celibate for your whole life. But for the tantric, sex can be used as a vehicle towards one’s liberation.
Just like those philosophers in the West, the different schools have been quarreling for centuries, each system thinking that their interpretation is correct. And amongst the philosophies in the East you will find as many different philosophies as there have been individuals - idealism, realism, existentialism, absurdism, fatalism, theism, atheism, agnosticism. etc.
This is why, if one dependent upon borrowed knowledge, one is simply going to be confused. And the danger is, that the mind is such, that if one is entering into the search for Truth with any prejudices whatsoever, the mind will see whatever it wants to see depending on it’s identifications. That is why, in a so called “mystical” experience - the Hindu will see Shiva, the Christian will see Christ, the Buddhist may see Buddha. The Hindu will never see Christ, or Moses, simply because he has no place in his belief system for them, from where can he manufacture Moses or Christ ?
Yoga is not a philosophy or a belief system, it is simply a scientific method
for the liberation and expansion of consciousness.
Can the siddhis be awaken by autosuggestion or Nlp?
(I will read better this great topic, watch the videos and give a better opinion :D)
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;46348]The Scales,
"Bhranti Darshana = wrong ideas
Viparyaya Jnana = wrong knowledge"
What are standards for “right” and “wrong”, let alone “wrong ideas” and “wrong” knowledge, are entirely relative. The reason why certain masters had started speaking in such terms was not to speak of the Truth, that was not their intention. A master is not in the least bit interested in transmitting the Truth, but in doing whatever is necessary to assist you towards your liberation. The intention was simply to provide medicine, to offer a method for transformation. Part of that method was providing certain models of thinking, not because they are true, but because they can be effective. But, not seeing this, one clings to the corpses of their words thinking them to contain the essence. This is one of the greatest problems in most disciples on the path.
Once, Mara, the Evil One, was walking with his servant in the forest. They noticed a man walking in the distance, radiant in walking meditation. The man suddenly bent over and picked something up.
“Did you see that?” asked the servant. “What has just happened?”
“He has found a piece of the Truth”, said Mara.
“O’ Evil One! Does that not bother you?” said the servant.
Mara said, “No, he is just going to turn it into a belief”.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know about all that.
I stand by my earlier statement.
Just because you don’t fly through the sky doesn’t automatically mean someone else can’t either.
Talk about views and beliefs.
Autosuggestion, lucid dreams can help to awake siddhis?
Im sorry if Im being annoying, but to be honest is somenthing that I would like to know. Lucid dreams coud be related with string theory.
[QUOTE=Deicide;47031]Autosuggestion, lucid dreams can help to awake siddhis?
Im sorry if Im being annoying, but to be honest is somenthing that I would like to know. Lucid dreams coud be related with string theory.[/QUOTE]
Some adepts have the ability to instruct you through dreams. Could they awaken certain siddhis? Possibly. Most likely yes. Would they do it for you? I dunno.
This is from The Yoga Sutras by this guy called Patanjali.
Om
[B]Chapter Four[/B]
Sutra One: [I]"The Siddhis arise by practices performed in previous lives, by certain “herbs” or “chemicals”, by the power of Mantra, through austerity, or by Samadhi. [/I]
Deicide,
Lucid dreams themselves are a form of siddhi. Beyond this, is projection of one’s consciousness beyond the body. But I am not certain why one would be interested in such things, developing siddhis have no value in themselves. It is not much. Just enough training will do it. But it does not mean one has come to an understanding of the root causes of one’s suffering, neither are they capable of liberating oneself. On the contrary, without clarity, they are capable of magnifying one’s sufferings a million times fold. That is why all of the masters have always spoken against working simply for the development of siddhis. But, if you allow them to arise in you, without grasping onto them, then they have a certain beauty of their own. To develop siddhis is a natural by product once you come closer and closer towards one’s awakening. And you can enjoy them, but the moment you start lusting after them, you have become the slave.