everyone speaks of The Prana but few mentions apana.
“But when you quoted Maharishi Raman that “Without any training, without even being interested in the idea of enlightenment, without a master or a guru, just through a process of self inquiry which was intense - within a few minutes he came to his awakening.” ,you want to say that he was a rare case with regard to rest of your post,meaning as if his ground was prepared out of nowhere and for him method wasn’t necessary. He wasn’t a rare case but a special case and his ground was prepared out of discipline and rigorous practice like everyone else,but his ground was already prepared due to his spiritual practice in previous lifes and in this life just a small inquiry within him lead to his enlightenment.”
If that is the case, if your enlightenment in this life is just dependent upon your previous lives, then just drop all of your efforts and do nothing. But I assure you, by dropping your efforts, if you have been suffering - your suffering will continue. All of these ideas about past lives determining your destiny are dangerous. And they are not without prejudice either. Depending on the theory of karma which you are following - there are various different explanations as to why you are the way that you are. For a Jain yogi - it is impossible for any woman to become enlightened unless she creates enough karma to be re-born as a man. A Buddhist would never say such a thing, neither would a Hindu, they have different theories. I want you to know that the various theories of karma are not free of of prejudiced interpretations. Whether certain things are true or not, is not the point. But this clinging to the idea that past lives determine your present life is dangerous. If you yourself have not entered deep into your unconscious and brought these past life experiences to the surface - then such claims should not be accepted, even if they have been said by Patanjali, or a man like Gautama Buddha. Whatever has not entered into one’s direct experience has no relevance at all.
Hi bjoy,
Although prana is used as a general word for the life energies, just as energy can be divided as electricity, magnetism, electromagnetism, strong force, weak force, etc. similarly with the subtle body there are various different subtle energies. When you are talking about specific subtle energies, “prana” only refers to that form which is found at the level of the heart.
Well Amir i thought you could read between the lines and remember some laws relating to physics are still to be uncovered. I said what i gotto say and it is upto you if you could transcend the present experience you are into,because there’s loads of insight still to be discovered waiting for you,if you could transcend the subtle form of ego still lingering around you in some form and lastly samadhi too,is not an end in itself.
“Well Amir i thought you could read between the lines and remember some laws relating to physics are still to be uncovered.”
Spirit,
That is fine, you do not need to uncover all of the laws of physics to know this - if you just know yourself, through and through, then you will find out what is possible and what is not. And just because modern science still has yet to come to more knowledge, that is not an excuse for one to start flying off in one’s imagination and use this as justification to believe just about anything. I can promise you - it does not matter how many siddhis you awaken in this life - water is always going to boil at one hundred degrees.
"lastly samadhi too,is not an end in itself. "
I have never said this.
"if you could transcend the subtle form of ego still lingering around you "
What is not just a subtle form of ego, but a tremendous form of egotism - is your assuming things which have yet to enter into your experience, you have accepted too many things without question.
“I said what i gotto say and it is upto you if you could transcend the present experience you are into”
Yes, I know you have been speaking, that is the whole problem. You are speaking too much, and it is the function of one who is clear eyed to discriminate between snakes pretending to be dragons and dragons as dragons. Stop speaking of things which have no roots in your living reality and go deeper into your practice.
Amir i gotto admit ignorance is bliss for you. For a person who has put a plug in his mind and logic can’t see where he is heading. And you are heading nowhere,and just swaying to and fro with the limited experience of yours which are doing nothing, but creating illusions in your life, which your posts are revealing quite brilliantly. I suspect whole heartedly that the samadhi you say, you are experiencing 24 hrs,may be a play of your mind. Well its your issue,hope you recognise it soon before it takes the form of hallucination. Spend some more time to understand yogic philosophy and its subtle meaning,relating to nature and soul before propogating it in a misinterpreted form,as in some posts i see you lack even the basic understanding.And i said in one post it is better to remain silent than to force someone to reach conclusions,i am choosing silence for some time. Have a great time and pull yourself out of your unreasonable experiences and move on to something realistic experience and logic. And lastly spend some time to learn, not to misinterpret meanings of posts to suit your logic and experience as this would help you immensely.
Lastly i want to add that,i know you are an ardent blind devotee of osho rajneesh with loads of books of him in your shelf and plenty of bookmarks on your pc,as your every post shows its reflection be it celibacy,siddhis,yoga being religion,awareness etc. I too have read his books and liked loads of insight there but like to add that he is not the final authority with regards to spirituality which you so totally stick to it and consider his words as a final say in spiritual sciences,celibacy,siddhis etc.Move out of that loop hole and you will see plenty of possibilities and experiences not based on his teaching but your very own. Broaden your intake. I may be wrong but not totally wrong what i said. So propagate to people either by posting on youtube,your site or whtever not on misinterpretation and spontaneous conclusions but deep inference after there is some form of enlightment, because its dangerous to lead people and preach your knowledge unless you have reached your final goal or gained “real enlightenment”,and it would be better to consider yourself still a seeker,not propogating you are in 24 hr samadhi, and then propagate to the masses thru your site what you want. It would be better for people as originality of yoga would then remain intact.
Exitting from this site for good reasons…hoping to return after some time…still, as a seeker.
Exit
Spirit,
“Amir i gotto admit ignorance is bliss for you.”
That is nice, but I do not consider your perceptions to be of any importance at all.
“And you are heading nowhere”
Of course. When in communion with the methodless Way, it is inescapable.
“I suspect whole heartedly that the samadhi you say, you are experiencing 24 hrs,may be a play of your mind.”
It is not a play of the mind. In the yogic sciences it is known as sahaja samadhi, when ones samadhi has become a spontaneous as ones own breath. My sahaja samadhi had come to me after six years of asceticism through the yogic sciences, and since its arrival I have never been left hungry.
“Spend some more time to understand yogic philosophy and its subtle meaning”
More ignorance. Yoga has nothing to do with philosophy, it is a science and technology for the expansion of consciousness. As far as philosophy is concerned, one may be a Buddhist Hinayanist, a Buddhsit Mahayanist, a Hindu charvaka, an Advaitist, a follower of Samkhya philosophy which is essential dualist and atheistic - the opposite of Advaita, a follower of the philosophy of Patanjali, a Jain, a Sikh, but all of these different streams have made use of the yogic sciences, because yoga is a technology, not a philosophy. It is something which is scientific. If you insist that yoga is a philosophy, then we will have to find out which yoga is the true yoga - whether it is Buddhist, Jain, Hindu, Charvaka, Advaita, Samkhya, and so on.
“And i said in one post it is better to remain silent than to force someone to reach conclusions”
If you understood even a single word, then you would know that I am not speaking so that you can create conclusions - but to shatter all of the conclusions and assumptions which you have blindly accepted which have no roots in your direct experience, and which you are clinging to out of fear and insecurity in an attempt to preserve your ego.
“Lastly i want to add that,i know you are an ardent blind devotee of osho rajneesh with loads of books of him in your shelf and plenty of bookmarks on your pc”
The ox continues chasing its own tail. I do not consider a man like Osho as awakened, and everything that I am saying arises out of my own direct experience.
“its reflection be it celibacy,siddhis,yoga being religion,awareness”
First, Osho had never spoken much of the siddhis. As far as celibacy is concerned, do you think what he has said is unique or original ? That you can not be celibate and come to your awakening is something which has been known in the tantric sciences for centuries. Neither is speaking of awareness something which is anything special - all of the methods for the expansion of consciousness are methods towards this - whether it is Jnana yoga, bhakti yoga, kriya yoga, tantra yoga, nada yoga, nidra yoga, raja yoga, kundalini yoga, karma yoga, dvesha yoga, or any of the countless forms of yoga.
"So propagate to people either by posting on youtube,your site or whtever not on misinterpretation and spontaneous conclusions but deep inference after there is some form of enlightment, because its dangerous to lead people and preach your knowledge unless you have reached your final goal or gained “real enlightenment”
If I have not settled the matter completely, I would not have been speaking. In fact, six years ago I had come to my enlightenment, but had remained silent and decided not to teach specifically so that I can mature my understanding, so I remained in practice for three more years.
“it would be better to consider yourself still a seeker”
Even if I tried, I couldnt. The seeking has ended with a finality which is unbreakable.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;63851]The seeking has ended with a finality which is unbreakable.[/QUOTE]
so, ego.
bjoy,
It is the ego which continues seeking and chasing its own tail endlessly. When you see into your own inexpressible nature, then it is impossible not to cut off your own head as Chhinnamasta.
Once, a disciple came to see a master and said, ‘‘What is the Way?’’
The master said, ‘‘Your Original Mind is the Way’’.
The disciple said, ‘‘Shall I try to seek for it ?’’
The master said, ‘‘Move towards it, and it moves away’’.
The disciple said, ‘‘If I dont try to seek for it, then how can I come to a knowledge of it?’’
The master said, ‘‘The Way belongs to neither knowing or not-knowing. Knowing is delusion, not-knowing is blank consciousness. When you have really arrived to the Way beyond a doubt, you will find that it is as vast as space’’.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;63862]bjoy,
It is the ego which continues seeking and chasing its own tail endlessly. When you see into your own inexpressible nature, then it is impossible not to cut off your own head as Chhinnamasta.
Once, a disciple came to see a master and said, ‘‘What is the Way?’’
The master said, ‘‘Your Original Mind is the Way’’.
The disciple said, ‘‘Shall I try to seek for it ?’’
The master said, ‘‘Move towards it, and it moves away’’.
The disciple said, ‘‘If I dont try to seek for it, then how can I come to a knowledge of it?’’
The master said, ‘‘The Way belongs to neither knowing or not-knowing. Knowing is delusion, not-knowing is blank consciousness. When you have really arrived to the Way beyond a doubt, you will find that it is as vast as space’’.[/QUOTE]
i agree with your power of imagination.
Though hearing and seeing with your senses intact, you have not understood.
nothing to understand.
here & now.
‘‘nothing to understand.’’
If you have yet to discover an eye on the forehead, even that which is true becomes a lie. If you have discovered an eye on the forehead, even a lie becomes a truth. If you say that there is nothing to understand without this discovery, then I will raise one half of truth and say that there is everything to understand. If you say that there is everything to understand without this discovery, then I will again raise one half of truth and say that there is nothing to understand.
‘‘Here and now’’
If one is completely honest with oneself, one will just need to look a bit closer into ones mind and find out that for most of the time, one is not here and now at all. One is living in a dream world, hanging either in the past or thinking about the future. This is how, even if you say something like the Truth is to be lived ‘‘here and now’’, even this becomes a fiction as far as your experience is concerned.
Amir,
I support the idea that there are laws of nature and that these are not broken. But if you hold to this idea, you should hold all the way. Science has revealed to us the laws of physics. And we know, then, that a baseball does not move through the bat (even though both are empty space) because of forces of electrostatic repulsion. People that do not understand scientific laws try to use science to reach nonscientific conclusions. Like, someone might learn that there are wave-like qualities to an electron so may conclude then that if we just make our atoms “vibrate” at higher frequencies, we can do this or that.
But, science also tells us there is no “astral” level. There is no prana and apana that moves with changes in consciousness. And, there is no primary entity called “consciousness”. This is just an artifact of the brain. So, most of yoga philosophy is not supported by scientific laws or the current scientific worldview.
Science depends on consensus. So there is a logical problem with your idea that the things that you “experience directly” are true. In the spirit of science which depends on consensus and repeatable experiments by other scientists, your direct experience is no more true than someone else’s personal reading of Patanjali. It is just subjective experience. Scientists call your evidence anecdotal.
The same logic you use to discount the more exotic siddhis, I could use to discount your “experience” of the chakras. You say you do chakra meditation. You also say once should question everything unless it is part of your direct experience. So you must take stock in the chakras because they are part of your “direct experience”. But I say that your direct experience of them is a fantasy of your imagination, conjured up by your subconscious so you may feel superior to those that do not experience chakras. See how it works? With the same reasoning with which you reject the possibility of the more exotic siddhis, I reject the possibility of your “chakra” meditations. I could say that you only pretend that there are chakras. Believing in them is a kind of grasping that satisfies your ego’s need to feel special.
You would like to follow one set of rules (the known laws of the physical universe, agreed upon by scientific consensus) to reject a siddhi such a walking through walls, but follow another set of rules (one’s personal “direct” experience) to justify your own fantasies.
As it is, I believe in “astral projection” because I have done it (to my own surprise). I don’t need to explain scientifically how I do it to make it true, just as I don’t need to understand how my body urinates in order to do that. And so I support your trust in personal experience. What I do not support is your rejection of things that are currently outside of your personal experience, especially as you are using science to do so. You want to have things both ways, with the end result being that the measure of whether something is true is if Amir says it is true. Isn’t that a funny coincidence?
Currently, scientists do not completely understand the nature of time, among other things. Now they are saying that about 80% of the universe consists of mysterious “dark” energy and matter. There is a lot we do not know. It is good to keep an open mind.
You certainly do take a position and “dig in”. Perhaps you like to show others that you are correct? I do not write this response for you, as I can see that you are highly inflexible and dogmatic. This is for the benefit of others.
You certainly do take a position and “dig in”. Perhaps you like to show others that you are correct? I do not write this response for you, as I can see that you are highly inflexible and dogmatic. This is for the benefit of others.
It is refreshing you said this at the end of the post, because I was just about to chime in and tell you Amir is infamous on this forum for his double standards, inconsistency and contradicting himself while being blissfully unaware of it. It is actually comic. I have never taken him seriously, because I see him as an unintentional comedian!
You asked him about whether he has evidence of chakras, you will get a circular argument: “It is my direct experience” If you ask him how does he know his experience is not his fantasy, he will reply, "Because I am enlightened - or in his words, “Because I know myself through and through”
On science. We really not to get out of this oft-repeated cartesian attitude of seeing the subjective as belonging to mysticism and religion and the objective as belonging to science.
No such division exists in reality. It is a false dichotomy. There is in fact tons of scientific evidence for so-called subjective or mystical phenomena, including psychic abilities, reincarnation, astral travel, mystical states.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;69129]
On science. We really not to get out of this oft-repeated cartesian attitude of seeing the subjective as belonging to mysticism and religion and the objective as belonging to science.
No such division exists in reality. It is a false dichotomy. There is in fact tons of scientific evidence for so-called subjective or mystical phenomena, including psychic abilities, reincarnation, astral travel, mystical states.[/QUOTE]
Hi, Surya Deva. I will follow your suggestion and look for the humor in these posts. That’s always good advice in any situation!
Well, while there is certainly an overwhelming volume of evidence for mystical phenomenon, there aren’t a lot of controlled studies whose results are extremely convincing. I’m okay with that. Science just might not be built to form a clear picture around psychic phenomenon. But I am inclined to take notice when people’s personal stories (or my own) mesh with descriptions or stories from ancient texts that span different cultures and eras. I think where there is a split between the scientific method and metaphysicics is that working scientists will use anecdotal evidence as a jumping off point for an actual study. But the personal stories and experiences will not constitute proof no matter how many there are. As for me, my own experience with feeling prana is enough evidence that the activity of sensing and moving prana is interesting and productive enough to continue. I really don’t know whether there really is a prana that is different from regular nerve sensations or if my experience of prana just represents a shift in consciousness that dissolves the subject-object experience of sensation. Same with experiences with astral projection. Real enough to me and sufficiently different from the regular dream state to be significant and worth pursuing.
Also, science tries to remove human consciousness as a player in the universe. If consciousness itself plays some primary role in creation, then science will naturally have limited its usefulness.
I just might not be fully educated about published scientific studies of psychic phenomena. Please post any links you have…Thanks! Mike
I just might not be fully educated about published scientific studies of psychic phenomena. Please post any links you have…Thanks! Mike
In fact over the last century, there have been thousands of studies done into psychic/paranormal/spiritul areas, but these do not get publicized in the mainstream scientific community, because even today the mainstream scientific community see these areas as fringe/pseudoscience. However, the results of this overwhelming body of research into these areas over the last century is now definitely starting to change even mainstream scientific culture, in that there is now a growing acceptance of their results and the scientific method has now been expanded to include phenomenological(subjective-experiential) data.
The problem with psychic phenomena is that traditionally we did not really know how to study this in a controlled experimental environment, because of the subjective nature of the phenomena. Later, we developed controlled experiments using a range of blind and double blind methods, similar to those used in the medical and psychology field, to bring the same level of control as any other science.
For instance research into remote viewing has been so compelling, that even hardline skeptics have been forced to concede that remote viewing is as proven by the standards of normal science. But they add a rejoinder, that because this phenomena is ‘extraordinary’ they need evidence that is beyond normal science, but ‘extraordinary’ This is of course a fallacy. As these skeptics are clearly unreasonable, it has not stopped research into psychical areas or halted the momentum produced by the positive results found. It has even forced higher institutions, like the ministeries of medicine in many countries to accept the existence of psychic phenomena and the efficacy of spiritual medicine.
I would have to go around the internet finding research studies for you, which will take time. So I will suggest following up on the following areas and discussing them with me if you want here:
OBE research
NDE research
Priceton consciousness project
Noetic sciences
Past life memories research(Ian Stenvenson etc)
Directed Intentionality(prayer and positive intention)
Bioenergetic field(auras)
Epigenetics
The perusal of some of the research into the above areas will put you in touch with what is actually going in the scientific world, how much evidence do we really have, and how it is actually changing science as we know it.