Speech/swearing/prakrti/guna: brainstorm about expressions and modifications

Spirituality
#1

swearing is an expression usually used when results dont meet the expectations.

I’m curious about the above.
There are people expressing bad language in daily life.
There are people who are against swearing, and there are people who just ‘see it as just an innocent expression without any real meaning’.
Both kind of have a point: one can interpret expressions directly (authentic), or indirectly (habit/irony/socialconventions: ‘[I]hi, how are you?[/I]’ instead of ‘[I]lets initiate the conversation’[/I]).

I could really appreciate if somebody has anything interesting to say about prakrti/gunas concerning speech/expressions and the modifications which they undergo.

[I][ul]
[li] how innocent do you think swearing is? what is this energy behind it?
[/li][li] is there any scripture/sutra which dives deeper into speech?
[/li][li] to what degree do you try to control your speech? (do you swear?)
[/li][li] how do you deal with cursing people?
[/li][li] how does swearing yourself vs hearing people swear relate to prakrti/gunas/karma?
[/li][li] to what degree do we need to express ourselves?
[/li][li] does refraining from expressing a thought create internal conflict or discipline?
[/li][/ul][/I]

“control thy speech” is an important phrase, because speech operates on causality/karma: poor language promotes poor outcomes, and vice versa.
But how far should one go with refraining from negative expressions/poor language?
A literal expressions ‘Revenge is a Poison’ sounds like bad language at first right? But there’s more information inside if you think about it…
Also, my english is not perfect…but you don’t need perfect english to understand me right?

#2

There are two ways to look at this from the Yogic point of view:

  1. The intentional content
  2. The word content

  1. It is obvious that the meaning of the word is not decided by just the word itself, but by the usage of the word. If I say affectionately to a loved one “You idiot” in the right context this will not be perceived as offensive, but may even make them smile. That same expression “You idiot” said aggressively in a different context can cause offense.
    It is a fine line though, because one wonders why would you have to call somebody an “idiot” at all? If you want to be affectionate, why don’t you just use affectionate language?

  2. However language is sacred, even the words that you utter from your mouth, down to the syllable should be done in a discerning way, because according to Yoga every word down to its syllables has an energy. When syllables are combined in certain combinations they produce potent formulas that can have direct effects on reality itself, a mantra - this is why it is very important to control our speech and choose our words carefully. Ideally, the Vedic ideal is speak softly and sweetly. However, there maybe certain situations where you have to use more stronger words. There are no hard and fast rules - one must use their own discrimination.

#3

?prakrti/gunas concerning speech/expressions and the modifications which they undergo?

We need a model to correlate some of these concepts/ terms.

First, speech is an external expression, but all expressions are not speech. Spoken words are preceded by thoughts and thoughts are ?verbalized? cognitions and cognitions result from the thinking process. Now,

  1. The raw material for the thinking process is heavily loaded with emotions
  2. Cognition is affected by the ego-sense and our pre-dispositions (likes and dislikes)
  3. Verbalization is a function of culture, our upbringing

So, speech cannot be modified itself unless one works on its ingredients like emotions, ego, subjective preferences and the culture. Similarly, expression of thoughts could be via any of our action organs like hands and feet, and ironically through silence!

The ingredients themselves may be inherited from karma (pre-dispositions), cultivated through wrong perception (ego), generic to humanity (emotions) or acquired (culture). But, we are given a potentially powerful tool of mind to change them, if so desired.

Mind works on the root cause of the causes (ingredients), gunas. Gunas cause faulty perception as it ties us up with the appearance/ form and deprives us of any insight of the subtle. It further holds us captive by changing the forms and feeding our thinking process incorrect/ misleading sense-data. Ordinarily, our mind joins the party and dances with the gunas. Yoga shows us how to non-attach mind and mold it back into its original self, the Universal Mind.

Universal Mind is the intelligent life force perceptible in each object, we call prakrti.

Coming to the specifics:

Swearing ? Watch how speech collaborates with a terse face and agitated body language, other modes of expressions! Swearing is not localized in the speech, so what?s the use of ?controlling the speech? if the mind is besieged with hate?

?Words are energy?
Absolutely. But thoughts are matter, too. Energy dissipates, thoughts remain in the environment, albeit very subtly. They are the precursors of karma cycles.

#4

Thank you for your answers.

So, modifications are needed in order to function in daily life (when not in universal mind), this was stated in this thread:

http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f20/reducing-speech-to-math-modifications-of-the-mind-10726.html

And also by the beginning of Patanjali’s yoga sutras, he distinguishes 2 states (universal / modifications) :

[B]1.1[/B] Now, after having done prior preparation through life and other practices, the study and practice of Yoga begins.
[B]1.2[/B] Yoga is the control (nirodhah, regulation, channeling, mastery, integration, coordination, stilling, quieting, setting aside) of the modifications (gross and subtle thought patterns) of the mind field.
[B]1.3[/B] Then the Seer abides in Itself, resting in its own True Nature, which is called Self-realization.
[B]1.4[/B][B] At other times, when one is not in Self-realization, [/B]the Seer appears to take on the form of the modifications of the mind field, taking on the identity of those thought patterns.

Since I havent found any judgements made in patanjali sutras (things being wrong or abnormal), I conclude that both mindstates are totally normal. One is a resting state, and the other not. No enlightend/non-enlightment discrimination here imho.

So…I guess we can agree identification with the modifications of mind are needed in order to talk.
Therefore, Patanjali basically says that there is nobody, no saint, no yogi, nobody who can talk without using modifications of the mind.

Hmm…let me try to create a scenario of a swearing example then.
So if the input (causes/ingredients) result in an incorrect thought, and the output contains hate/swearing, something went wrong between input and output.
To me this sounds that it has to do with past memories of swearing:

(causes) ingredients -> manas -> (incorrect knowledge + past memory) -> manas -> swearing

The incorrect knowledge could be ‘swearing is ok’ + past memory could be ‘father swearing’.
This would recreate the gunas of the past (father swearing, you swearing).

Would you assume memory of the past cannot be deleted?
Or would yoga be able to mark certain experiences from the past as ‘not important’?

#5

Sqz,

1.1 atha yogānuśāsanaṁ
Now we shall begin the revised and complete instructions in the science of Union.

1.2 yogaś citta-vṛtti-nirodhaḥ
Yoga is achieved through healing of the psyche and calming of the thinking instrument, which is restrained from taking various forms.

1.3 tadā draṣṭuḥ svarūpe?vasthānaṁ
When this is accomplished, the seeker knows what he or she really is.
Your version (1.3 Then the Seer abides in Itself, resting in its own True Nature, which is called Self-realization.)

1.4 vṛtti-sārūpyam itaratra
But up until then, the inner self identifies with the forms, one?s own and that of others, and takes their active modifications for real.
Your version: (1.4 At other times, when one is not in Self-realization, the Seer appears to take on the form of the modifications of the mind field, taking on the identity of those thought patterns.)

The first 4 sutras lay the foundation. Patanjali is saying, (1) here are the instructions on UNION for the ?qualified? seeker, since (2) the objective is to calm the ?mind modifications?, because (3) one needs to SEE that ?abiding in one?s pure consciousness? is one?s ABSOLUTE REALITY and the UNION, while (4) otherwise, what is perceived is RELATIVE REALITY and DUALITY.

This is a very logical beginning to expand on mind?s slavery to gunas (and the resultant forms) that create obstacles, hindrances that give rise to new karma seeds which necessitate life (after life) keeping the mind enslaved in the reality relative to time & space. But then he is recommending an 8-fold path to transform oneself on the path of self-realization. Thus, the seeker progressively and irreversibly changes to reach a state where the mind gets un-attached as a way to get rid of karma, guna, time & space and simply abide in pure consciousness. Of course there is no value judgment here. The 2 states you have mentioned ?universal and mind modifications? are not in a right/wrong or even a flip-flop mode; they simply represent the destination and the starting point of an enormous journey.

Secondly, having achieved a state of ?no mind modifications? consciously an advanced yogi has all the wherewithal to survive in the same mode even while living ordinary life i.e. without letting mind modify. I agree, apparent ?mindlessness? is perplexing ordinarily. But one has to remember that in Samadhi one connects with the intelligence of the Universal Mind that is far superior to mind-generated self-knowledge. Universal Mind being the mother of all matter, such an advanced yogi not only sees the forms as we see them but sees the objects through. So, while we remain locked up in ?self vs not-self? discrimination, a yogi discerns any object (including people, animals etc) as ?the Sprit and Matter?. The apparent ?mindlessness? is amply substituted by the ?Mind-empowerment? (mind vs Mind). Because our mind and thinking is all that we know we are prone to believe that there is no other way to know. And that is true on the yoga path in the initial stages; but then the baton gets passed to a more able processor and the indulgent mind and its opaque thinking can be left behind.

Again, I request you to see this way: a mind modification is not needed for speaking or swearing. Because of the thought that precedes such an expression, the mind modifies itself as if to make the hate sound justified. Modification is an effect, not an immediate cause.

Memory is first bypassed to bar it from influencing the thinking and then re-written with self-realized spiritual knowledge. Human memory is of three types: (1) images and impressions (this is required for new cognition), (2) associated impressions of emotional experiencing (the unnecessary baggage), (3) cell-level functional memory (can be re-written). But in yoga, there is no good/ bad or more or less important memory.

#6

Thank you for the answers, I really appreciate it.

@Surya: yes, agreed, in the end simplicity of words is the easiest to focus oneself on.

@Suhas: thank you for the comparison to another interpretation. I took the interpretation of swamij.com, but this makes it complete. May I ask which translation you copy/pasted?

#7

Its my own. Thanks.

#8

swearing violates ahimsa

#9

@omnamashivaya: totally agree

@Suhas: you know sanskrit? Nice!
I would be really happy if you could throw some light on sanskrit in this particular case. I mean, how multi-interpretable is sanskrit? Because, check this out:

1.4 vṛtti-sārūpyam itaratra

I see 3 words here, and yet Suhas and Swamij’s interpretation are slightly longer.

@Suhas: I would love to see how you ‘unzipped’ this phrase.

At this point, I see 2 interpretations, an objective and subjective one.

  1. ‘[I]there are 2 states, and with yoga you can move between the states[/I]’
  2. ‘there are 2 states, 1 state is the best’

The first indicates yoga being bidirectional, the latter directional.

This is a very logical beginning to expand on mind’s slavery to gunas (and the resultant forms) that create obstacles, hindrances that give rise to new karma seeds which necessitate life (after life) keeping the mind enslaved in the reality relative to time & space.

In my understanding Prakrti/Gunas are everything and everywhere, so I suppose you are refering to coloured/outbalanced gunas?
Let us get on the same page about it.
Pardon me for using math here, but it fits the best imho:

Prakrti:

  • tamas [-1,0,1] range between negative, zero, and positive
  • rajas [-1,0,1] range between negative, zero, and positive
  • sattvas [-1,0,1] range between negative, zero, and positive

So, lets say prakrti(0,0,0) doesnt effect the modifications of the mind, but prakrti(-0.3,0.6,-0.3) does.
Do you agree your ‘slavery’ interpretation only applies to the latter (outbalanced prakrti?).

If not, could you be so kind to explain to me why gunas would always imply slavery to the mind?

#10

[QUOTE=sqz;81022]

In my understanding Prakrti/Gunas are everything and everywhere, so I suppose you are refering to coloured/outbalanced gunas?
Let us get on the same page about it.
Pardon me for using math here, but it fits the best imho:

Prakrti:

  • tamas [-1,0,1] range between negative, zero, and positive
  • rajas [-1,0,1] range between negative, zero, and positive
  • sattvas [-1,0,1] range between negative, zero, and positive

So, lets say prakrti(0,0,0) doesnt effect the modifications of the mind, but prakrti(-0.3,0.6,-0.3) does.
Do you agree your ‘slavery’ interpretation only applies to the latter (outbalanced prakrti?).

If not, could you be so kind to explain to me why gunas would always imply slavery to the mind?[/QUOTE]

I am eagerly waiting for an explanation from Suhas Tambe Sir. But here are my thoughts:

[QUOTE=sqz;81022]
I would be really happy if you could throw some light on sanskrit in this particular case. I mean, how multi-interpretable is sanskrit? Because, check this out:
[/QUOTE]
Sanskrit is a very cryptic language. But the problem is, for a single cryptic code, it gives multiple passwords/interpretations.:stuck_out_tongue:

Very interesting point. However, your mathematical model does not take into account the accumulated gunas. And ‘0’ is assumed to be ‘total absence’. I think that ‘0’ is a temporary/relative absence in time and space.

Even if one gets a (0,0,0) state at a particular moment (t1) through Yoga (or any other means), that state itself is not sufficient enough to get a so called “balanced prakriti”.

At (t1) state --> the gunas could be (0,0,0)
At (t1-1) state --> the gunas could be (-0.5,0.5,0.6)
At (t1-2) state --> the gunas could be (0.5,+0.5,-0.6)
At (t1-2) state --> the gunas could be (0.7,+0.6,-0.4)
and so on…

When we make a “summation process” (it may/will not be arithmetic computation), the accumulation “could” be (0.2,0.2,0.2). Now, even though, the gunas are balanced, they WILL cause “modifications of mind”/oscillations.

The closest example that I can give is electronic oscillators [Electronic_oscillator ]. Even though, they are fed with a constant DC current, they can produce outputs ranging from different oscillations to many wave forms. I think, human brain is much more complex than a simple electronic oscillator.

Even if the accumulad gunas can not cause “modifications of mind”, the five senses we have, the food we take, the air we breathe will cause them.

So to me, no tool or process (not Yoga, not meditation) can guarantee absolute absence/balance of Gunas. However, I think, Yoga is a process of human elevation and “unification” process with God’s creation.

P.S:[I] Personally, I am following this thread very carefully, and some of it, I hope will give me a solution to my current struggle to get rid of my past “mind modifications”.[/I]

#11

I was more referring to ‘0’ not as total absence, but more as ‘zero distortion / colourless thought’.
Because, in my understanding, prakrti can have an excess or shortage of rajas and/or tamas and/or sattva.
Nevertheless, interesting perspective to see ‘0’ it as total absence.
Forgive me if my mathematical desires, but if we combine both ideas we could see it like this :

deepsleep / total absence = 0 * ( guna(-0.4,1.3,0,0) * guna(…) )
wakingstate = 1.0 * ( guna(-0.4,1.3,0,0) * guna(…) )

no idea what variable would amplify/decrease the gunas though hehe :slight_smile:

Also funny that you bring up that oscilloscope-comparison.
The math above is exactly how sound is usually produced, but instead of one audiostream, there are 3 streams (rajas/tamas/sattva).
Maybe we should make this an seperate thread.

And yes, lets wait for Suhas’s reply.

#12

Ah, I find all this maths rather befuddling. However, you guys are very close to what gunas actually are in Samkhya(which means to count and analyse, with respect to the reals in existence) they are a mathematical expression of any phenomena you observe - whatever you see is a guna-function, very much like what quantum physics says everything is a wavefunction. Samkhya is actually quantum physics. I wonder if you can come up with a unique mathematical way of representing guna functions, such that there can be a unique representation for infinite reals.

Now regarding the discussion of whether prakriti can be bought back into a permanent state of non-modification. How is this possible when every moment the senses are still operational, we are constantly receiving sense stimuli and are constantly moving in space and time. Surely, then there should be incessant modifications and impossible to stop all modifications, yes? This presents an interesting puzzle which Indian philosophers have given different answers to. The Vedanta philosophers have said that even after reaching self-realization in this life, the modifications will continue just as they were before, only the difference now is that you become completely indifferent to them, you simply watch them the remaining few modifications play out and then gain final liberation after leaving the body. I prefer the Yoga and Jain views, because this notion of a final end point is incomprehensible to me. The Yoga and Jain view is that the modifications of the mind field are only insofar as one has identification with the modifications When there is no identification there are no longer any modifications imposed by the mind, but rather reality is perceived directly as it is. Prior to that, due to the modifications we cannot perceive reality as it is, because the modifications cover it. So we still have a body, we still have our senses, we still are in the world, but we perceive it as it is in its pure essence(as the functions of gunas) so nothing is imposed by our mind on it.

I was thinking of an example to illustrate this point. Suppose there is a pond in front of you and every second you throw a pebble in causing ripples… Now ask yourself if you wanted to stop the ripples would you continue throwing pebbles in it, or would you stop throwing pebbles altogether and wait for it to calm down and become still? Similarly, modifications are like ripples taking place every moment in our mind-field, the more we think, exert ourselves, indulge our senses the more ripples we create. In order to stop creating the ripples we need to simply just watch and wait for it calm down and become still.

Yoga works because of the power of the observer. The observer has the power to stop the modifications of prakriti in their own field of mind. It is this very simple principle that the ancient scientists realized that is the secret behind why Yoga can cure diseases, release tensions, awaken dormant powers, activate ones natural intelligence or intuition. Stop trying to do things, just observe - nature will like a beautiful lady undress herself and bare all to you. The more we try to do things, the less successful we are. It’s when we are not trying, the magic starts to happen.

#13

One could literally live thousands of lifetimes and not make a dent in unraveling the mysteries of the universe and for what reason? Shifting perception in consciousness from the illusionary doer to the observer surely seems to allow the spontaneous to happen unimpeded, so called naturally, while alleviating suffering?btw it?s absolutely mind boggling when one researches Vedic sciences and what they perceived long ago, modern science fails in comparison, the Indus valley was a special place of many happenings.

#14

Sqz,
(Yes, I am born and raised in India, until the business school brought me to USA. Know some Sanskrit, but not much of math.)

1.4 vṛtti-sārūpyam itaratra
?Itaratra? refers to ?otherwise? or ?in states other than? (the abode of pure consciousness as in the earlier sutra 1.3); ?vrtti? is ?natural/ in-born/ intrinsic tendencies? (of chitta referring to sutra 1.2); ?sarupyam? has 2 components ? ?rupa? that is form/appearance? and the adjunct ?sa? makes is ?same as?. That put together in the context of mind modifications, suggest that ?the malleable mind takes the form that is perceived, until the indulgent mind is set aside for the beholder to know that pure consciousness is its real, steady state.

I was pondering over the use of ?prakrti? and ?guna? as synonyms and still feel they are not. That we see an object as a 3-dimensional gross thing is the primary deception. To realize how an object is a ?union? between the Spirit (purusha) and the Mind (prakrti) takes us to the ultimate truth.

Now, truly understanding the full import of the above statements only intellectually is never possible, given our limited sensing and processing abilities as long as they are under the captivity of guna.

The word ?guna? literally means a quality. But, in the present context, we need to expand it as ?that by which we cognize the object or describe it?. All objects have ?potential energy? in the form of its mass at rest. When one perceives an object, it is actually two objects interacting. The perceiving object sends signals/ vibrations of ?desire to know/ relate with? which stirs the potential energy in the perceived object. What results are a collage of aspects, called ?guna?. Yoga classifies these aspects as tamas (concealing), rajas (flitting/ changing) and sattva (revealing). They come tightly braided, but their sum total is always short of the whole truth. Guna vibrate back as sense impulses and processed by the perceiving object into cognition.

The extent to which perception falls short of the whole truth changes from one perceiving object to another and from moment to moment depending on which aspects dominate at any given time. (Quantum physics came close in recognizing the observer/perceiver as an object influencing the outcome of the observation.)These movements on the dimensions of time & space create infinite permutations that deliver our fascinating world full of objects which is never the same.
Guna can be best approached with relativistic statements than absolute. In the absolute state, the three strands of guna are in equilibrium, conveying no ordinary cognition. ?Someone arrived at 2:35? as an absolute statement says little; but further qualifications like ?barefoot?, ?at night?, ?alone? etc provide the relativistic parameters (guna) to let us cognize. Relativity seems to provide the pairs of opposites and to oscillation in between. The captivity of guna comes from our sole dependence on sense-based perception and cognition of the world. Our eyes, the most trusted sensor, has limited angle of vision, parabolic lenses to sense, limited range of motion, limited reach and are just image-catchers that are useless if not backed up by the brain?s image-processing. Guna is a single source of these images and hence, the slavery.

Coming back to your observation about the two states, I would add that the final state is round the corner, but unseen to the eyes of the 1st state. That is one of the apparent paradoxes of yoga. So, while you are journeying towards the yoga summit, you experience the 1st state and only contemplate the final state. But, once you ARE the final state, no other state prevails or the 1st state is subsumed in the final.

Yaram,
some of your observations are very true, like
?Even if the accumulated gunas can not cause “modifications of mind”, the five senses we have, the food we take, the air we breathe will cause them? (though what is ?accumulated? about gunas?).

?So to me, no tool or process (not Yoga, not meditation) can guarantee absolute absence/balance of Gunas. However, I think, Yoga is a process of human elevation and “unification” process with God’s creation?

Guna slavery is uniform, since we can sense only with our factory-fitted sense-organs that are calibrated to guna vibrations alone. Yoga?s escape route is to cultivate insight into the subtle so that our own guna composition becomes predominantly sattvic and then to transcend even that to let guna fall into an equilibrium and collapse. Then, perception is direct and desire-less that stirs no gunas in any perceived object. We are free only thus.

#15

From the food body; five elements (earth, water, fire, air, space) and the three gunas (sattva, rejas, tamas) arises the I-AM-NESS/consciousness. Minds nature thrives on filling consciousness with conceptual nonsense and its filter ego wants to be a formative player when in fact all that springs from it is sheer ignorance in entertainment of mind. The I-AM-NESS has no shape/form it appears but as a temporary illusion of habit fueled by bundles of memories and figments of imagination?finite, limited and impermanent. The permanence is what was there before the food body came into being and only that will remain after the disappearance of this compilation of the five elements and three gunas; everything accumulated in between this ?appearance and disappearance? is merely collected entertainment in memory that will eventually expire. It seems than that everything directed towards being-ness is far from Reality/Truth. Not directed at anyone just contemplating.

#16

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;81032]
Guna slavery is uniform, since we can sense only with our factory-fitted sense-organs that are calibrated to guna vibrations alone. Yoga?s escape route is to cultivate insight into the subtle so that our own guna composition becomes predominantly sattvic and then to transcend even that to let guna fall into an equilibrium and collapse. Then, perception is direct and desire-less that stirs no gunas in any perceived object. We are free only thus.[/QUOTE]

I got what I was looking for…!!! The minimum Yogic level to achieve “present-ness” is [I]pratyāhāra[/I]. For a detailed presentation, please see this blog of Suhas Tambe: Time and Space in Yoga. Thank you sir, once again.

#17

I can swear in jest, or in anger, or without any intention at all - simply out of habit.

Life, my friends, i have found is diverse, complex and varied (LORD BE PRAISED)

Samkhya explanations for the modes of nature I have found to be “jiving”

So what?

Ones being, however subtle, can be classified, sufficiently (for my tastes) into the operations of prakrit - passion, harmony, and inertia.

Works for me.

The interesting thing of all this is its practical applications and interactions.

For example - Coffee fires me up like the fourth of july. THe more i drink the hotter i get. If I’ve been pissed off routinely. Habitually pissed off? Wake up. Drink coffee. Here comes the pissed off. Like clock work. “rasenfrackaa, fracken, racken farken!”

Its hilarious.

#18

I must admit it, I swear like a sailor. I don’t see any problems with it as they are only ‘words’…but then again, so too are Mantras.

It all depends on the mental association one has with them. I have none and using cuss has just become a ‘bad habit’ and if I was looking to eradicate all my ‘bad habits’, cussing would be way down on that list there. lulz

Thing is, that while I may not have a problem with it or even necesssarily mean anything by it, others do, especially the older generation. I am in my mid 40’s and my 75yr old mum [I]still[/I] wacks me over the head for even so much as a ‘bloody hell’…of course, I laugh it off.

Bottom line: Nobody will take you seriously if you swear. I hate being all ‘serious business’ and stuff and God [I]does[/I] have a sense of humour (or else the platypus wouldn’t have been created).

I guess it’s more about controlling an impulse over a habit and one day, I will learn to tame that stupid shit of a bloody bad impulse for my own spiritual progress. Today is just not that day, obviously. lol

#19

Re-reading this all again, I can help try and put this in terms that I learned about a [I]very[/I] long time ago (that nobody has mentioned yet).

All speech is regulated and controlled by the Vishuddhi Chakra.

When enlightened souls go off into Samadhi, they must lower their consciousness back down into Vishuddhi Chakra to have dealings with the world.

Thus, this Chakra is very special and sacred and speech is very special and sacred because it leads to the awakening of it.

That’s all I know about it.

#20

What happens to your vibration, awareness, mood, attitude, demeanor, etc when you use the types of languages and words available to you? Does it feel appropriate or inappropriate within yourself?