Spirituality is making my OCD worse. Curses and the power of the mind

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#1

Hello everyone. This is gonna be long, but I really need some help.

I have a form of OCD known as Pure Obsessional OCD.

I get involuntary/intrusive thoughts about the most disgusting/horrific things you can imagine( rape, torture, murder etc). These thoughts come to my mind almost every few minutes out of nowhere disrupting whatever I’m doing at that moment. When these thoughts come, I get afraid that they’ll come true. Many of these thoughts come in the form of wishes or curses. To prevent them from coming true, I do numerous mental and physical rituals or whatever my mind tells me to do in order to counter those bad thoughts.

These intrusive thoughts emerged and peaked around 2008. All these thoughts and rituals took a toll on me, which eventually lead me to become an agnostic(from a former Muslim). Becoming agnostic and not believing in anything supernatural/superstitious/after life finally gave some peace from these intrusive thoughts. I rationalized that if there is nothing more in this world, then surely things such as curses aren’t real and therefore cannot come true so I shouldn’t have to do all these rituals to prevent them from coming true.

My agnosticism didn’t last long, as I really felt there is some spiritual force out there. I experienced way too many crazy “coincidences” to believe this is it. So around 2011 I started meditating and becoming more and more spiritual.

While reading about meditation, it talked about the power of the mind. It said that our thoughts can impact our feelings and reality itself. This did not sit well with me at all because I constantly get terrible thoughts in the form of wishes/curses. If our thoughts are capable of impacting reality, then that would mean curses can have impact on whoever they are towards.

This made me more superstitious than ever. My Pure OCD has spiraled out of control once again. I do rituals every other minute so the “power” of my stupid mind doesn’t alter reality.

I don’t know where to go for help. A psychologist will just tell me that these are superstitions and these thoughts won’t come true. But I want input from some spiritual people.

I honestly hope curses(whether they are meant or not, voluntary or not) are futile.

#2

Hi,

maybe someone in this forum has a helpful answer to you. For me it is either too difficult or you are in a situation where you should seek professional personal help.

You wrote “A psychologist will just tell me that these are superstitions and these thoughts won’t come true.” Where did you get that from? Why don’t you give it a try anyway - mostly psychologists will ask, listen and let you do all the work.

All the best,

muki

#3

Hello,

I’m no psychologist, but perhaps mandala meditation might help you. Investigate.

#4

spirituality is the path of self awareness. in other words, you can only realize yourself during meditation, nothing more.

if you want to get the nasty thoughts out of your mind you might have to do a few strange sounding things, like practicing psychic self defense, terminating your prescription drugs and no, this is not medical advice. you can also turn off the TV which almost always gets the violent images out of my spiritual friends minds, within 1-2 weeks.

good luck!

#5

Namaste Potential Energy,

I use to get evil thoughts like you Potential energy when I was younger. Horrible things like wanting to do evil things to others(rape, murder, torture) and ironically enough they were always people who were closer to me. I use to beat myself up on why I got those thoughts and would fight with myself, only to realize I made it worse. They would come back a lot more stronger and had much more power to disturb my peace. After a while as I grew older, they started to disappear and I would rarely get them. Later on, there was a resurgence, but I was able to manage it more effectively and since they have rarely come.

Here is what I did: I stopped fighting the thoughts. I just let them come, watched them like a viewer watching the screen, and let them die a natural death. If this did not work, I started replacing the thoughts with positive thoughts. I will give an example: I had really nasty thoughts about wanting to torture my dog(I love my dog, and I would never do it) so everytime that thought came, I replaced with a positive thought of kissing and cuddling my dog. After a while, the thoughts stopped coming.

I had a hard time understanding why I got these thoughts and what were their origins, but was able to develop a theory later that everybody gets these thoughts. Only that some people act on these thoughts and some do not. I figured the evil stuff people do is basically people acting on those evil thoughts they get. Fortunately, I never acted on any of my evil thoughts, because my conscience was strong, even as a young child.

It is very easy to develop a pattern of evil thinking. If an evil or nasty thought comes and you passionately resist it, you will develop a pattern if thought which over time will materialize into a physical neural pathway. Then it becomes a lot more difficult to reverse the situation, but not impossible. They say in the Yoga school of thought it takes 40 days of repeatedly practicing a new habit before it becomes internalized and automatic.
So I would recommend the following dual-technique to you:

  1. Practice meditation and simply watch your thoughts. Do not judge a single thought, however nasty it is. Just watch it. Let it run its course in front of you.
  2. Practice positive thinking in daily life. Whenever a thought comes, replace it there and then with the exact opposite. Visualize the opposite, feel the opposite. Make the thought as vivid and bright as you can.

Do this routine regularly and you may surprise yourself on how much the intensity and frequency of your nasty thoughts has reduced.

Also consider surrounding yourself with positive things whenever you can, like positive pictures, positive scents and sounds. This can also be effective, because people often find that when they enter an environment which is sacred, they can no longer think impure thoughts. Hence why in some movies you see how evil spirits/demons cannot enter sacred grounds.

Consider CBT therapy. It is considered the most effective therapy in modern psychotherapy in replacing old thought patterns.

Best of Luck

#6

I really appreciate all the suggestions guys. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=mukimuki;70687]
Where did you get that from? Why don’t you give it a try anyway - mostly psychologists will ask, listen and let you do all the work.
[/QUOTE]
I’ve been to at least 4 psychologists/psychiatrists since the 10th grade. It did nothing for me. They are usually scientific/mundane and will disregard my beliefs as hogwash.

[QUOTE=FutureHumanDestiny;70702]if you want to get the nasty thoughts out of your mind you might have to do a few strange sounding things, like practicing psychic self defense, terminating your prescription drugs and no, this is not medical advice. you can also turn off the TV which almost always gets the violent images out of my spiritual friends minds, within 1-2 weeks.[/QUOTE]
I’ve been tapering off Zoloft since last October. I’m up to 75mg/day now. And I haven’t watched tv for a long time, but I do watch and read things online. And I’m curious as to what “psychic defense” is? And how do I practice it?

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;70705]Here is what I did: I stopped fighting the thoughts. I just let them come, watched them like a viewer watching the screen, and let them die a natural death. If this did not work, I started replacing the thoughts with positive thoughts. I will give an example: I had really nasty thoughts about wanting to torture my dog(I love my dog, and I would never do it) so every time that thought came, I replaced with a positive thought of kissing and cuddling my dog. After a while, the thoughts stopped coming.[/QUOTE]
Wow thanks for this well thought out advise Surya Deva! Kinda relieved you know where I’m coming from. In early 2011 I didn’t fight these thoughts. They’d come and I’d do nothing in response which helped reduce these intrusive thoughts. I told myself “no matter how many times these thoughts/curses/bad wishes come, if I really meant them or not, they will not come true, they are simply thoughts”. It was going very well, the thoughts almost never came until I read that bit about the power of the mind and how our thoughts have an impact on reality.

I guess the main thing I wanna know is, can our thoughts really affect reality?

I feel like if I knew 100% for sure that the answer to that question is “no”, these thoughts wouldn’t affect me at all and all my rituals would be a thing of the past.

#7

the thoughts almost never came until I read that bit about the power of the mind and how our thoughts have an impact on reality.

Be careful of this new-age thought creates reality thing. Yes, there is evidence to show that directed thought can affect reality, but the effects are microscopic. The moon is not going to turn into cheese no matter how much you think it is made of cheese, or how many people on Earth start to think it is made of cheese. Much like the Earth did not become flat because once people thought it was flat.

Here is what matters: What thoughts you choose to express and to act on. If you discard all the nasty thoughts and only express the noble and good ones, then you will start to form good thinking habits, and hence good behavioural habits. This will have a much more stronger impact on the reality around you.

The practice of Pranayama is recommended to help bring your thought activity down and ennoble your thoughts. The practice of Yogic breathing brings clarity to the mind and purifies it. It slows down the thinking activity, thus allowing you to be more aware and mindful and more in control of your mind and body.

I recommend you read the Yoga Sutras and follow its instructions. It is the best self-help guide you will read, and you will never need to read another one again.

#8

Maybe Vipassana meditation could be beneficial to you. http://www.dhamma.org.

#9

As I am a psychologist (doing my second degree right now and hoping to proceed to a 3rd in September) I find it disappointing that your experience with professionals so far has left you disenchanted (you say that they all disregarded your beliefs as hogwash). Also I am not sure in what context this arose. I can see that a professional might try to help you see that these thoughts are not in fact reality, but just thoughts. Perhaps this leads you to say they treat it like ‘hogwash’? I am not sure. I can most certainly believe you have had bad experiences with them, I am not discounting this.

I have a couple of things to say and perhaps they will be helpful:

  1. OCD is one of the most curable psychological disorders, so please take heart in this. It can be cured and it can be cured fast (when compared to other disorders).
  2. OCD is an anxiety related disorder. [I]Sometimes[/I] it can be the by-product of other underlying anxiety issues or anxiety-related problems. Once these are solved the OCD may also be ameliorated (if it was dependent on the underlying problem). However, I am [B]not[/B] suggesting you leave it be, I think you need to tackle it head on, however I mention this because some introspection regarding other things that might be going wrong in your life and affecting your psyche could potentially be useful.
  3. My suggestion is that you look for a psychologist that conducts cognitive-behavioral therapy, as this kind of therapy has been shown to be extremely useful in extinguishing OCD. CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) is contractual between therapist and patient with both coming to an agreement as to the best course of action and agreeing to a specific number of sessions. As such it does not drag on and on. Effects are assessed and it is very controlled.
  4. I believe you might be taking what you read ("[I]It said that our thoughts can impact our feelings and reality itself[/I]") too literally. As a scientist, no, I do not think people can change PHYSICAL reality with their minds. This is magical thinking and there are no controlled studies that show this to be true. In fact all studies that tap into paranormal phenomena are complete failures. An addendum to this: Your [B]own[/B] physical reality can change, but by that, I mean only your body. You can influence things like your heart-rate. This can be achieved by meditation or by simple bio-feedback (a quick and completely non-spiritual way). The way I [B]would[/B] interpret what you read (in a way which is in fact psychologically [B]true[/B]) is that your thoughts and feelings can change YOUR OWN interactions with your environment. Case in point, if you are having happy, positive thoughts when interacting with others, this will reflect on your face, which will lead others to respond more positively to you. There is nothing magical about that.
  5. Finally, I am a [B]researcher[/B], not a clinician, so please do not take my words as the ultimate truth for you or your condition. You need to see a therapist who is qualified.

I applaud you for finding the courage and WILL to find others to help you. You have tried, and that is 50% of the therapy there. You are willing to try again. Please DO try again, see someone, especially someone specializing in CBT. William James, the father of modern psychology said that the will to persevere in this world through adversity is what separates heroes from the rest of the world. Good luck

#10

In fact all studies that tap into paranormal phenomena are complete failures.

I know you are trying to help, but this is not true. I think it is better we do not discuss paranormal research or parapsychology here so as not to derail the topic, but the reality is definitely not a complete failure as you portray. In fact we have a lot of positive evidence, which is why parapsychology is increasingly being taken more seriously. Some of the most successful experiments have been in Directed Intentionality and Ganzfeld tests, which have yielded statistically significant evidence. Others successful areas of research have been in OBE and NDE’s and past life memories. The research has been strong enough for major secular bodies and scientific journals to publish and acknowledge them.

#11

I respect your belief, however there are no studies in [B]peer reviewed[/B] [B]scientific[/B] journals to show this. I would also like to direct you to the work of Susan Blackmore, who herself used to study the paranormal for years (decades?) until she finally gave up. Her book on Consciousness details all the failures of the study of the paranormal in the widest possible array of topics, including telepathy and out-of-body experiences. The study of the paranormal is not unscientific. However, when studied in a scientific manner the findings are always non-significant, which is highly disappointing for the proponents. And one of the greatest proponents was dr. Blackmore. We can believe what we want, but significant (or non-significant as the case might be) results point us to the most likely direction. I do not see how it is conductive to someone’s health (and I am referring to the topic starter) to point to non-peer reviewed studies. If you DO have any peer-reviewed studies to show me, please direct me to them. I have access to all (or almost all) scientific journals and databases for free and I would be glad to see what you come up with. Please do consider the OPs psychological wellbeing, I am not trying to criticize you but I do not think this is conductive.

#12

Divina, this really is a separate topic, and if you open up a separate thread I will gladly discuss it with you. However, it is simply untrue that there is no peer reviewed scientific literature showing positive evidence for paranormal/para psychological phenomena, and even a simple search will show there is a lot of evidence(I have personally read some of the literature and the books published on this) Susan Blackmore is just one researcher amongst many, she has a right to her opinions, but her view is hardly representative of the research in this field as a whole.

I am saying for the sake of the OP that we take this discussion elsewhere. In any case as I have already stated, though there is evidence that thoughts do actually affect physical reality and these effects can be measured, but the effects are microscopic. Instead, I have given similar advice as you, to pay more emphasis on ones thinking and behavioural habits, using modalities like CBT and Yoga.

#13

An argument cannot be solved with saying what we believe only, we need to give tangible evidence to support it. I have done many simple searches as have done many researchers before me. The evidence is not there in peer-reviewed journals. But you insist there is, without actually providing any names. Is there for example a meta-analysis you have in mind? Please give me the names of authors and publication date so I can look it up. That’s all you need to do to support your argument. Otherwise, for the sake of someone who already has anxiety problems and started the topic for this reason, perhaps it is better to withdraw, if you do not have actual evidence.

In any case, one thing is certainly right, we have derailed the thread completely. In my defense I will say that I cannot allow the OP to think that there is reason for magical thinking while I know that there is no empirical evidence to speak of (in any accepted, peer-reviewed journal), as thinking so might be for him extra cause for anxiety, which he simply does not need. Please do PM me if you wish to continue this conversation with me, I will be glad to discuss privately with you and we can give each other citations and talk or whatever.

#14

The existence or non existence of paranormal phenomena should makes no difference to the anxiety problems of the OP. As the anxiety problems of the OP are manageable and curable using simple CBT and/or Yoga(including their attitudes to paranormal phenomena) There are plenty of people who believe in paranormal phenomena who are psychologically healthy people. Thus belief in the existence or non-existence of paranormal is not essential to forging good psychological health .

I am not stating it is my belief that there is strong body of research showing positive evidence for paranormal phenomena(mind-matter interactions) I am stating it is a fact that such research exists. Moreover, I think your usage of the words, “magical thinking” is a bit derogatory and offensive to those people who believe such phenomena exists. Researchers in the field of parapsychology do not use these terms to describe this phenomenon. It is not magic, but a purely natural phenomenon where via some hidden natural mechanism we are yet to fully understand, minds can interact with the physical world. Many theorists point to Quantum theory to explain how mind-matter interactions take place.

There is indeed strong evidence to show how the mind directly can affect the physical. It is seen in many psychosomatic phenomena. It is seen in Yoga how one can consciously control their heart rate, body temperature and other involuntary bodily processes. In these cases it shows that we can control at least one physical part of reality with our minds, our own body. Thus the fact that mind does indeed have the capacity to control the physical is established. If it can control one part of the physical, then maybe it can control other parts as well. As we know very well today in quantum mechanics that the physical is not made of separate and isolated parts, but is an interconnected system. If you can establish conclusively that the mind can control even one single part of that system, it is established it can control the rest of the physical system too. You may find it difficult to accept this conclusion because of your beliefs, but the logic is very sound. There is also empirical evidence to support this.

Yes, let us continue this discussion via PMs. I will send you some material for you peruse. Please bear with me.

#15

Hello when you meditate you clear your mind so all though just come up to the surface and then leave “normally” Also dont think that the thoughts belongs to you. Cause they dont so dont feel miserable cause you have bad thoughts try not to identify your self with those thoughtpatterns.

Also bad thoughts can only be changed by counterthoughts , if i recall right it is said in patanjali yog sutra.

Just meditate and have no thoughts and in daytime try to have good thoughts also try to do karmayoga , that is to help others . That will help you alot i think.

And suryadeva has given you lots of good info already.

#16

But the material you speak of cannot be made public in this thread. I see, very convincing.
The health of the OP has a lot to do with it since as he states himself it was certain writings, which I have also quoted fully above, that seem to have worsened his condition. Do you really fail to see this?

#17

What the…an entire debate going on here since I left haha. You guys could continue if you want, it’s interesting.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;70715]The practice of Pranayama is recommended to help bring your thought activity down and ennoble your thoughts. The practice of Yogic breathing brings clarity to the mind and purifies it. It slows down the thinking activity, thus allowing you to be more aware and mindful and more in control of your mind and body.

I recommend you read the Yoga Sutras and follow its instructions. It is the best self-help guide you will read, and you will never need to read another one again.[/QUOTE]

Sounds good. I’ll give all of it a try.

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;70715]Be careful of this new-age thought creates reality thing. Yes, there is evidence to show that directed thought can affect reality, but the effects are microscopic. The moon is not going to turn into cheese no matter how much you think it is made of cheese, or how many people on Earth start to think it is made of cheese. Much like the Earth did not become flat because once people thought it was flat.[/QUOTE]

That actually put my mind at ease a little… and has me craving for some cheese. But do you think the same for wishes/curses? And is the whole “power of the mind” a new age thing?

[QUOTE=Divina;70777]But the material you speak of cannot be made public in this thread. I see, very convincing.
The health of the OP has a lot to do with it since as he states himself it was certain writings, which I have also quoted fully above, that seem to have worsened his condition. Do you really fail to see this?[/QUOTE]

Hi Divina. I’m a she lol. It’s very thoughtful of you to consider my mental well being when discussing the evidence for paranormal phenomena and how it could affect my OCD. But at the same time I don’t want to get better based on falsehoods either.

Both you and Surya Deva have mentioned CBT. I have considered this many times but unfortunately it is very expensive and I know of no insurance plan that covers it. I saw a program on tv dealing with curing OCD patients via CBT. One man had the same thing as me(curses etc) and the way the CBT specialist tried to cure him was by making him say the worst wishes/curses imaginable. And of course the man was not allowed to do any mental/physical rituals to negate those curses. I don’t think I could ever go through that, just in case there is a .0001% those curses could come to fruition.

#18

But at the same time I don’t want to get better based on falsehoods either.

Exactly, it is completely the wrong approach to try and falsify your beliefs in the paranormal in order to treat to you. Moreover, I cannot be dishonest, I know there is a lot of strong evidence for the paranormal, and some paranormal things have happened to me personally, so I can vouchsafe that this phenomena does exist.

That actually put my mind at ease a little… and has me craving for some cheese. But do you think the same for wishes/curses? And is the whole “power of the mind” a new age thing?

The power of the mind is overestimated by new age theorists. However, often it is used to sell products like Law of Attraction programs and the Secret. Here the belief is sold that simply by intending an outcome, you can actually make it happen. This sells false hope, because merely intending something does not produce that outcome. If that was the case many people living in poverty around the world, who also die in poverty, would have become rich, because they all crave money. In order to obtain a desired outcome in life you must ACT. Simply thinking it is not enough.

The curses/nasty/evil thoughts you are having have no power unless you put them into action. As somebody told you earlier, these thoughts do not belong to you. They are just thought patterns that formed subconsciously without you realizing. When they appear, consciously witness them and you will realize that they are not you and you will begin to unidentify with them, the result of this is that the thought pattern will start to weaken and overtime it will dissolve.

In your mind there will be both good thoughts and bad thoughts. We all have them. Of these thoughts give your attention to good ones, express them and act on them alone. This will form good thinking and behavioural habits. Do not beat yourself up because you have bad thoughts now. Like I said we all have them. Do not give them any attention at all.

#19

CBT is expensive. If you cannot get CBT on your insurance or health plan and cannot afford CBT, then you can buy some books on CBT and carry out the exercises in the book. This is obviously no substitute for having a clinical therapist working with you, but it is better than nothing.

Alternatively, I would recommend simply following a strong Yoga lifestyle. I do not mean just doing Yoga asanas(postures) but following the entire lifestyle as prescribed in the Yoga Sutras, which is based on personal development, with an emphasis on cultivating positive thinking and behavioural habits. You are likely to find a good English translation and commentary at your local bookshop or you can order one from Amazon. Alternatively, several free English translations are available online(however they will likely have no commentaries)

#20

I thought I would chime in and say that there is this great CBT workbook that you could try called “Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy”.

It is important to remember that your thoughts are simply thoughts. Avoid labels such as “bad” thoughts or “good” thoughts. Notice them and move on. Do not fight them but do not let them rule you.

Next, these rituals you speak of. What would happen if you stopped doing them? The bad things that you conjure in your head? Do you have evidence to believe that these things would happen if you didn’t perform rituals? Like hard evidence?

I guess this is an iffy area as some believe that one’s thoughts can become a basis of reality in a spiritual sense of the word. However, we are dealing with someone suffering from illness whose thoughts are irrational and not based on concrete reality in a general sense. It is as if an underweight person “thinks” they are fat. In their reality they think that they are fat but this isn’t [I]true[/I] reality. Now is it?

I don’t want to imply that if one’s thoughts can’t be verified as true in a scientific sense then they are false. There are those who experience visions, premonitions, etc…which transcend all basis of reality. However, if one has a known mental illness then we have to accept that for the most part that their thoughts are distorted. They must learn to question these beliefs/rituals which have no basis in reality in order to end their suffering.

PotentialEnergy, these thoughts are not real. They are images in your mind. There is no proof that you can prevent these things from happening in performing rituals. I know you don’t believe me but it is true. I think both CBT and yoga can help you a lot. CBT helps you learn to recognize when your mind is feeding your BS. Yoga helps your learn to let go of attachments and gain inner peace and clarity.

I didn’t intend to write so much. I wish you all the best. OCD is very personal to me.