The Present Moment?

Spirituality
#1

Recently, Suhas Tambe, a contributor to the yogaforums, and author of ‘The Making of a Yoga Master’, contributed an article entitled ‘Time and Space in Yoga’ to my website… HathaYoga.net. In the article he questions the concept of the present moment.

I am fascinated by his contribution, because just a week prior in the Communication Creates Past/Present/Future Reading from the ?30 minutes with YogiMoni series? I touch upon this same question. I come to the conclusion that since ?now? is so hard to define and potentially so infinitesimal in time, that it doesn?t really exist. But Suhas takes his analysis a step further, and I feel his thoughts are well worth reading.

You can read his article here.

What do you think about the present moment? About concepts of time as it relates to yoga practice?

#2

I didn?t read the other references you mentioned but first thought is; time does not apply in reality, memory of past along with anticipation future creates the illusion. The ?I AM? as pure witness is not dependent on time for actuality.

#3

time is necessary for the mind/ego/what identifies itself through the physical. the point of yoga, it seems to me, is training one’s self/mind to detach from all things physical…hence the reference in buddhism to a state of “no mind”…or, in western terminology, “awesome-land”

#4

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;72783]I didn?t read the other references you mentioned but first thought is; time does not apply in reality, memory of past along with anticipation future creates the illusion. The ?I AM? as pure witness is not dependent on time for actuality.[/QUOTE]

Well… that pretty much summarizes what we are talking about. Nice!!!

Well, that is what Suhas was talking about.

My essay reading (which is a6 minute reading of a literally 30 minutes stream of consciousness writing and not at all thought out or an official philosophical stance), basically said the present can not exist really… that our past experiences embed in our neurological framework… our dreams/fears of future also embed within this framework… so our working perception of reality is more based upon the neurological programming of past/future than on any ‘present’. And the ‘now’ is not real in that it is too fleeting and hard to define.

But… of course the goal of yoga is to clean out our neurological garbage so that we can experience reality free of distraction

#5

the now is the joining of subject and object…thus, there is no room for concepts, as they are used by the mind to translate the object/expirienc/physical to the subject/understanding.

the now is perhaps the subject expiriencing itself as the object…ish, of course

#6

Sutra 4.33 contains the yoga philosophy of time. It does not speak of time per se, but rather of a succession of moments. A moment is defined as corresponding to the point at which some change or transformation can be ascertained.

If time is thought of as a burning fire, the future is fuel and oxygen, the past is smoke and ashes, the present is the flame, the point of transformation, when light and heat are released.

In terms of yoga practice, that is given in sutra 3.53., where the practice of [I]samyama[/I] on the moment and the succession of moments is said to produce a particular type of knowledge (translations vary). 3.54 goes on to describe how that knowledge can be used.

#7

In physics there is something known as the ‘problem of time’ that is that at the infinitesimal level of physical reality time seems to evaporate into nothingness i.e., it does not really exist(like similar conclusions that space does not exist) This is similar to the position that Yoga/Buddhism and Vedanta take on time: That what we know as time is just a succession of moments which produces the illusion of continuity and movement of time(known as the arrow of time in physics), in the same way the film frames projected onto a screen at a rapid rate produces the illusion of continuity and movement.

By the way Moni a great way of advertising your web site on the Yoga forums :wink: You are far more subtle and sweeter than Amir, who simply just posts threads with a link to his videos and leaves it at that. You clearly show your expertise in marketing :slight_smile:

#8

It is enjoyable to read each of your comments and thoughts on time and spaced as it relates to yoga. I am honored that you each took the time to respond to my thread.

Asuri - it would be nice to hear more details about your thoughts - how specifically do you interpret these scriptures?

Surya Devi - you are speaking my language baby - I love looking at things from concepts like physics/chemistry/etc.

… Surya - thnx for the kinds words about 'subtle sweet marketing…and I might add, only some of my posts have links to my website - no blatant self promotion or junk posts :wink:

Also I wanted to honor Suhas who took time to contribute an article to my site, and also to get a discussion going as it helps me broaden my thinking (and perhaps the thinking of others).

I always say the best marketing is that which is genuine and equitable… honoring everyone involved. This quote is taken directly from the HathaYoga.net mission statement, “… We seek to give more than we take and to operate this web site from a spirit of love and generosity.”

#9

… Surya - thnx for the kinds words about 'subtle sweet marketing…and I might add, only some of my posts have links to my website - no blatant self promotion or junk posts

Hehe, as long as you post on these forums, contribute to them and stimulate interesting discussions here, it matters little to me that you promote/advertise your web site on the side. It is a good idea anyway to advertise your web site on a platform like this which receives tens of thousands visitors each day.

#10

YogiMoni,

Some like it wrecked. Anything that dares to stand, stands in their way. Anything that is not about them has to finally bear their signatures.

To a genuine poster, 60 quiet views should matter more than a few noisy rhetorics.

#11

Anything that is not about them has to finally bear their signatures.

Do you mean people who use their real name on discussions forums, write articles and will publish them anywhere that will have them, publish books and link them in their sig and purport to be teachers :wink:

Nothing wrong in calling out advertising when you see it(in internet lingo, the word ‘spam’ is used broadly to mark it) I have no problem with it, but I wander if David might have a problem that some members are using his website to advertise their own services, websites and products. In any case I like Yogimoni, and she’s contributing and participating in the forum, even if now and again she drops a link to her website, as subtly as she does. This thread seemed to be more of an advertizement for your new article on her website than a genuine thread :smiley: So I can see why you were miffed at my remark :wink:

#12

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;72812]This thread seemed to be more of an advertizement for your new article on her website than a genuine thread :smiley: So I can see why you were miffed at my remark ;)[/QUOTE]
Agreed and so do others. Multiple people privately reported this thread which is why I’m here.

Please don’t do it again YogiMoni. I’ll let this one go since you’re new and some good conversation has come from it.

Thank you.

#13

I think it’s not all that useful to make statements like ‘time doesn’t really exist’ or ‘the present moment doesn’t exist’. Time is part of the fabric of experience. If time does not exist then there’s nothing to discuss, and no means of discussing it.

Its the same with the present moment. The yoga philosophers viewed all phenomena as a series of transformations. The present moment is the moment of transformation. If the present moment does not exist, then the past and future cannot exist either. Other well regarded commentators have said that it is only the present moment that is existent, and that past and future are non-existent. Future is anterior non-existence, it does not exist because it hasn’t happened yet. Past is posterior non-existence, it is non-existent because it has already happened.

The senses are bound to the present moment, the mind is not bound. The senses are analog, they operate continuously in the present. It is only with the mind that we are able to ‘digitize’ discrete moments of time. Using memory, we can hold a moment from the past in our mind and learn from it, or simply re-live that experience to a certain extent. Using imagination we can hold a moment yet to be in our mind, and try to determine to a certain extent what our experience will be when that moment becomes present.

I think it’s important to realize that the practice of [I]samyama[/I] on time (the moment and the sequence) is for a purpose. It produces useful knowledge that can be applied in a particular way. However, reaching the higher states of yoga (nirvicara) necessarily requires that the mind remains in the present moment. Thoughts of past and future have to stop.

#14

Of course, time is a useful construction, but a construction nonetheless. It is practical reality for us, but not necessarily an ontological reality. Its ontological status is strongly disputed by not just philosophers, but scientists today. What we measure as time in the everyday world is an arbitrary definition by the number of revolutions the earth makes around the sun, thus time rather than being an actual physical thing, is more of a mathematical function. This becomes apparent when we explore the subatomic world, where all of physical reality is represented as a mathematical function before quantum decoherence, as a possibility rather than an actuality. After quantum decoherence, particles manifest randomly at any location which we experience as events in the macroworld - what puzzles physicists is why there is an arrow of time, why can’t events go backwards as well, because there is nothing barring it from doing so as per the laws of quantum mechanics.

The Samkhya philosophers propose an interesting solution which is slightly similar to the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics: All events are already pre-existent, only that when certain conditions are produced, those events are made to manifest. So when we jump from the events at time t1 to t3, it is not the case that t3 is not yes existent, it is existent only that the conditions have not been produced yet that reveal these possibilities. Thus it is theoretically possible to jump directly from t1 to t3 without going through t2. The Samkhya answer for why it seems to us that we must go in a logical sequence through t2, is because our conscious mind is habituated to working in that way. In the Samkhya list of categories time does not exist. It is possible to go backwards and forwards at any point in time, as our subconscious mind does freely anyway. Similar conclusions have been derived by the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics.

#15

[QUOTE=David;72818]Agreed and so do others. Multiple people privately reported this thread which is why I’m here.

Please don’t do it again YogiMoni. I’ll let this one go since you’re new and some good conversation has come from it.

Thank you.[/QUOTE]

I am quite surprised by this response. While I did link to the article, it WAS a genuine post. I like to engage in these discussions and do not see anything wrong with using an article from my site to do so. I am still contributing to the forum and making valuable comments.

How strange that it is ok for others to post videos to their websites without any discussion. And there is someone here blatantly promoting some p90x version of yoga, but it is not ok for me to post about my article. Why is that Ok but my action not OK?

Surya… your first comment about marketing was fine. But your comment about ‘spam’ crosses the line and is inaccurate.

David - I respect your feelings and will remove myself entirely from these boards

#16

I had a feeling you were going to have a tantrum.

[QUOTE=YogiMoni;72788]But… of course the goal of yoga is to clean out our neurological garbage so that we can experience reality free of distraction[/QUOTE]

#17

David - I respect your feelings and will remove myself entirely from these boards

I am not speaking on behalf of David, I am just speaking for myself. Why would you want to remove yourself from these boards, just because David is disallowing you from advertising your web site on here? You can still be valuable contributor to this forum even if you are disallowed from advertising your web site. The fact that you want to leave just because David is not allowing you advertise here, makes it seem like you’re only here to advertise your web site.

Regarding the ‘spam comment’ Unsolicited Advertisements on forums do broadly get called spam. Some forums even have a a spam icon for people to mark them out. It appears, not just myself, but a few others on this forum found this thread to be advertising, enough to report it. Do not take it personally, if your intention was not to spam, only that it seemed that way to some people. I personally would give you the benefit of the doubt, because I know you have contributed many useful posts here already, and not always do you plug back to your web site.

Regarding Amir promoting himself by posting video links. I agree, that should also not be allowed, but I don’t think many people report it, because Amir has lost a lot of credibility on this forum and many people have him on their ignore list.

#18

By the way Yogimoni I was just reading some of the material on your web site. I first want to congratulate you on the job you’ve done on your web site. It appears your web site is only a few weeks old, but already it seems to have a lot of material and gives the semblance of a professional, organized and long standing web site. This is no doubt a credit to your web developing and marketing background and the momentum and speed with which you are doing this clearly shows you are a driven and tenacious person. I wish you the greatest success in what you are trying to achieve and in attracting regular viewers to your web site.

I noted in two of of your stream of consciousness essays(30 min with Moni) you betraying your obvious intention in advertising your web site and your reasons for doing so:

I wait
To succeed
I wait for my website to attract followers
…. for my words to be read
……for my financial reward…
MY financial reward …. Not his
My earnings as a strong and capable woman, not as a dependent and vulnerable wife

My dream is to finally build out hathayoga.net so that it becomes a place of transformation for all who become a part of our online community. I wish to share not only my written and spoken words, but the words of ancient teachers, present day teachers and healers. It is not my goal to shine or be the ‘star’ of hathayoga.net, but to be a facilitator who helps all who have something valuable to offer the opportunity to be heard.
Of course, over time, I need to make some money with the site. I must be fairly compensated for both practical and emotional reasons. But, my hope is to achieve my financial goals within the framework of a spiritually pure environment.

I am not judging you harshly for wanting to create a mega Yoga web site. In fact it seems like you desire to create another website like the Yogaforums David has created. The difference I noted was however there is a lot of your ego entangled in your web site. Your web site seems to be more about you than others, as wherever I look your name is everywhere, even in your categories, “30 min with Moni” David has had the Yogaforums up for years now and he’s never really felt the need to have a “30 min with David” section.

From what I can glean from your writings is that you want to prove to yourself that you can do it, that you are a woman empowered who can earn for herself, not just a vulnerable and dependent housewife playing second fiddle to men. You are capitalizing on all your skills in Yoga, marketing and web developing to market, sorry to say from my perception yourself, than your web site. Again, I do not blame you. This is how people become successful in the world of today: you must be enterprising, you must work hard and you must be confident and put yourself out there. It seems that is exactly what you are doing.

Maybe I suffer from a confidence problem but I have never really thought so highly of myself that I should write articles, or publish books, or start my own cult or new Yoga style(!) even though several of my well-wishers, friends and even strangers have suggested it to me. I have had opportunity knocking on my door - I have been asked to give talks at my university, hold lectures and have even given two talks at my local community. At my local public speaking club, a longstanding and respected member said to me, “You could make a lot of money as a speaker” But I have never really taken any of this praise seriously - I just do not feel ready for it. I feel like I am still a Caterpillar incubating in the cocoon, and until I am not a butterfly, I won’t spread my wings and fly away. The most that I ever do is just share my knowledge free on the Yogaforums(and with friends) in normal threads(and I still get called arrogant and haughty by some lol) but I have no motivations for self-promotion or self-gain.

What I don’t understand is why do others (like Amir, Futurehumandestiny, Suhas and yourself) feel the need to promote themselves, publish articles and books, make videos and hold seminars? Are you really doing it for others, or is it really for yourself, your ego?

#19

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;72810]YogiMoni,

Some like it wrecked. Anything that dares to stand, stands in their way. Anything that is not about them has to finally bear their signatures.

[/QUOTE]

Sad but true.

#20

I think I’d pay you to shut up, except I know I couldn’t trust you to keep the bargain.