Truth about yoga (a article for discussion)

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#537

Sarva,

“If you are going to claim that yoga is a science, please back it up with academic research to verify this. You can’t, because the subject matter of yoga is beyond science and in the domain of Sanatana Dharma.”

When I say that yoga is a science, that does not mean I am saying that it has anything to do with modern science. Modern science is not the inventor of the scientific approach, that was discovered centuries ago through methods for the expansion of consciousness. And what you are calling “Dharma” is going to be different according to your interpretation. If you are a Buddhist - you have a certain idea as to what that word means, because they have a different interpretation of the nature of things. If you are a Hindu, it is the same. If you are a Jain, it is the same. And moreso, the word “Dharma” itself refers to the truth of the whole existence, and that is nobody’s property. Whether man is alive or dead, the Truth is Truth. Even if the whole humanity disappears, and it will one day, the Truth remains. Even if the whole existence collapses back into it’s original state, then too the Truth remains.

Sanatana Dharma, the “eternal law”, is not something Hindu. Hindus have been speaking about it, trying to interpret it, but what they are speaking about is not Hindu. If you insist that “Sanatana Dharma” refers to the tradition of Hinduism rather than something that is realized out of enlightenment itself, then you should remember that “Hinduism” does not refer to a single philsoophy, nor does it have a single philosophy, nor does it have a single belief system, although some may treat it as such out of their identification with what that word means. If one says that Hinduism is the Sanatana Dharma, the statement is more or less meaningless. Hinduism does not even have a founder, and consists of diverse traditions which are as numerous as one can imagine.

#538

I have some experience with Christians living in the West and I’ve already written here about the ones I know and their belief about inclusiveness ( Remember the faith in a match story ? ) Religion is like politics , most people vote for a candidate based on perceived notions derived by looking at his face and seeing how he treats people. They don’t do a lot of analysis. I can agree that the Bible has many intolerant passages but I don’t necessarily agree that they were actually said by Jesus. I love the little children one and I can’t figure out why you don’t. As I wrote about a zillion words ago, to me it’s dogmatic to need proof of an actual Jesus ; it’s enough for me to have the idea of a life based on love and healing. The self-sacrifice thing is cathartic and apparently necessary for most since it’s in so many diverse cultures. Institutional religion very often serves politics , sometimes subtly, and you have me wrong if you think I’d like you to shut up because I disagree with you and it upsets me. I’d like you to shut up because you ( we ) are talking too much ad nauseum to no avail. Wasting time, ours and others, and providing by our attitudes a very bad example of a life tuned to yoga. I am sorry I ever wrote anything down here. I hope I have better things to do. It is a beautiful day and I’ve done very little asana. I hope my ujayi will wash my mind clear of your diatribes.

#539

I can agree that the Bible has many intolerant passages but I don't necessarily agree that they were actually said by Jesus.

Tony,

They may or they may not have been. It is impossible to say what it is which Jesus had been teaching. To know - the only way is to have been there directly to witness the man. Even if one is there as a direct witness, the moment the words touch ones ears, the message has already been contaminated with interpretation. It is safe to assume that the original teaching is something which is lost in eternity, and the same is the case with Gautama Buddha. Nobody knows precisely what it is which Gautama Buddha was teaching, they only have second hand reports and in many cases, inventions about his teaching. The Hinayana school declared that they know the original teaching of Buddha, the Mahayana school also declared the same, and both were equally convinced. And much of what is known asBuddhism` has little to do with Gautama Buddha - but is a long string of ideas and approaches which have been developed according to the teachings of the life of the man in several scriptures. But like Jesus - to know of the original teaching, you should have been there to directly witness the man.

When I speak of Jesus Christ, I am not interested at all in the historical Jesus, I am commenting about the Jesus as he is reported in the New Testament. If one is referring to that character, then I can only conclude that the man was completely asleep. There may have been a Jesus which was awakened, but that Jesus of the Bible is just a delusional fanatic.

#540

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad_vs._McWorld I’d mentioned this before- very expansive view- America is far down this road and religious tolerance is mostly because we don’t care enough about religion to get our minds off buying stuff- we look this other direction and give an oblique nod to religion. ( I can imagine that’s a reason I don’t care much for details and discourse about it )There is a necessary antithetical reaction but it looks like a losing fight and the most we can hope for is some human touches from the Mass culture. I doubt India , with it’s teeming population and democracy , can hold out significantly, against Mass culture. Religion won’t rule the future and we are discussing arcane matters, at least as far as the intolerance of the Abrahamic religions- Mass culture means inclusion.So that may be the reason so many are tolerant though a literal reading of the bible may not be( read the article ) We are not Christians or Hindus, we are all consumers. We are not the Christians to militant Islamists, we are the consumers. Do you want to keep discussing how many angels fit on the head of a pin while Columbus is killing Native Americans ?

#541

“Then everything you have been speaking so far is lies then is it?”

Yes.

Quoted for irony! :lol:

#542

Surya,

It is an ironic situation : )

#543

[QUOTE=AmirMourad;60566]Surya,

“Amir likes to fog everything up with mists of mystery”

It is not that I like to fog everything with mystery, Truth is a mystery. Even to say that Truth is a mystery is to miss the mark, it appears as a mystery to the intellect, because the intellect cannot grasp it. It is something that is to be realized only through a burning testimony of silence. In that silence, there is nothing mysterious, nothing ordinary, when a Buddha sees into a Buddha, there is no room even for a single thought to stand as a barrier between you and yourself.

Is it true that you would eat using your mouth and not your anus?

“Then everything you have been speaking so far is lies then is it?”

Yes.

So you admit you are lying. So that means we can all reject every word you have said on this forum.

I do not respond to your statements because you are just interested in the game of argument for argument’s sake, nor do I consider you to possess a sincere interest in yoga, nor do I consider you one who is capable of being involved in the work towards one’s awakening. Though you may deny it - but inwardly one knows or does not know very well whether you are truly interested, or just entertaining oneself on an ego-trip.

If you are not responding to my statements, then what are you doing right now, farting :wink: You did not respond to my statements because they proved statements you made were wrong. It is not good for your Buddha ego image to be wrong. Alas, you did the deed now. It is obvious to me from this fact alone of you not responding to those statements, that you have an ego. If you had no ego you would admit, “Yes, I was wrong”

I do not believe in the very idea of superiority or inferiority, which are just projections of the intellect.

Yes you do, it is obviously implied in the attitude of your statements. To tell somebody they are ignorant, unconscios, asleep, unenlightened and an idiot and they do everything in their life from cutting a slice of bread to having a shit improperly, and you are all-knowing, conscious, awakened, enlightened and wise and everything you say and do is a direct emanation from pure truth and being is obviously saying, "I am superior than you are you inferior person"
You can hide behind semantics all you want, but it is clear to anybody with a half a brain cell that you are saying you are superior to all of us

If one realizes his Buddha-nature, that does not mean he is superior to anybody. On the contrary, because he recognizes that the same nature pervades all, it brings him into communion with all.

Yeah, but in your case you also recognise that you are one of the rare ones in the hisory of the planet who have awakened it so you claim to be special. I earlier said yogis who have been working on their sadhana have been doing it for 10, 20 and 30 years - and you said “They are all fakes” It is clear to me you give a very bad stench of spiritual arrogance and ironically have nothing to show for it.

There is nothing which is not a direct expression of truth or the universe. Either you are in wakeful communion with things from moment to moment, or you are sleepwalking, that is the only difference. What I am saying is a direct expression of my own true nature - you may like it or dislike it, it is irrelevant. And that does not make me special, it is just that I have done the necessary work that is needed to come to my present state of being. Because you have not done the work that is needed, you have missed the opportunity.

You mean you have read tons of book on Zen :smiley:

In order to say that which cannot be said, remain absolutely silent. Become as soft as water, and you can overwhelm even the most rigid. To come to know of the highest height, you will have to come to know of the deepest depth. To come to know of your liberation, you will have to come to know of your bondage. Things are, and yet they are not simultaneously. Things are independent and yet interrelated. To come to a kind of resurrection, you will have to die and die completely.

Good idea, so Amir please remain absolutely silent from hereon and you will overwhelm us all :wink:

You joker :lol:

#544

[QUOTE=TonyTamer;60604] Mass culture means inclusion.So that may be the reason so many are tolerant though a literal reading of the bible may not be( read the article ) We are not Christians or Hindus, we are all consumers. We are not the Christians to militant Islamists, we are the consumers. Do you want to keep discussing how many angels fit on the head of a pin while Columbus is killing Native Americans ?[/QUOTE]

Consumerism lies at the core of the problem, but we are not going to succumb to it and let the rules of supply and demand define yoga. What about you, are you satisfied with consumer yoga or are you more interested in finding out what authentic yoga is?

#545

I recall reading a comment that Sri Sitaram Goel made in his autobiography. He said that throughout its history, mankind has been seeking solutions to its problems like war, inequality, unhappiness, poverty etc. To this end, man has proposed many solutions. Religion is one of them, social frameworks like democracy and communism are some others. But at the end of the day, the solution to it all lies inside the individual.

What the various so-called “fanatics” and “fundamentalists” have been doing on this thread is recognise that Indian civilisation was the first to recognise this Yogic truth and practice and perfect it into a full and proper path. They are not saying Hinduism is a religion. They are not saying that one has to be Hindu in order to do Yoga. They are not saying that Hindus own Yoga. These are things that are being put into their mouths.

At the end of the day, you are faced with the sight of a civilisational conflict. On one side is a civilisation that has advocated man’s right and ability to pursue salvation by himself. On the other side is a culture that has never had this kind of a view and one that has, in recent times, tried to take Yoga and cast it into a consumerist shell.

The Hindus/Indians here are perhaps only worried because that is something that India has suffered for a long time. This de-linking and deconstructing of Indian culture, which gets followed quickly by demonising and appropriating. That has always been the way of the west. Judge us not too harshly O spiritual masters. We merely ask that India’s cultural contribution be acknowledged.

#546

Acknowledged. I hope it spreads with deep roots, many branches, fruit for all and leaves caressed by God. Namaste

#547

I address the evolution of tolerance/intolerance in Religion as affected by a cultural shift towards consumerism and mass culture . Yoga is a personal science of union with the Absolute. It , and other parallel practices, will keep pockets of soul-depth alive into the future and perhaps we’ll evolve out of consumerism. I believe it’ll only get worse for general society in our lifetime. But, I’m trying not to think about it.

#548

Surya,

“Is it true that you would eat using your mouth and not your anus?”

You have not understood a single word that has been said.

“So you admit you are lying. So that means we can all reject every word you have said on this forum.”

Anything that can be said about Truth is bound to be a lie, because Truth cannot be spoken. But that does not mean that one should say nothing about it - one must say something about it just as a means to indicate towards the space. Otherwise, there is not even a possibility of assisting others towards coming to ones awakening. The problem, again, lies not in our language, but clinging to our language as though it is capable of grasping the reality.

“If you are not responding to my statements, then what are you doing right now, farting”

It was an error of grammar. I meant to write “did” instead of “do”.

“You did not respond to my statements because they proved statements you made were wrong.”

No, I did not bother because you are keen on misunderstanding, which is what you have been doing from the beginning.

“Yes you do, it is obviously implied in the attitude of your statements. To tell somebody they are ignorant, unconscios, asleep, unenlightened”

Perhaps you do not like the fact that you are still living out of unconsciousness, but there is nothing inferior about it.

“and you are all-knowing”

You should quote where I have said such a thing. Evidence is everywhere that I have said time and time again, that knowledge is limited - there is no such thing as being all knowing.

"everything you say and do is a direct emanation from pure truth and being is obviously saying, “I am superior than you are you inferior person”

If what I am saying is a direct expression of my own realization of Truth, that does not mean I am superior either. Truth is the very stuff which the whole existence is made of, there is no question of anything being better or worse than the other. It it simply a matter of whether one is aware of it, or unaware of it. That is the only difference. If one is aware of it - then one can see things as they are. If one is unaware of it, then ones vision will be clouded with delusion. Is there a cosmic law which says that a human being has to see things as they are, or that one cannot live in delusion ? Is there a cosmic law anywhere which says that one is superior than the other ? Different states of being are simply different states of being - and to say that one is superior than the other is just like saying that gas is superior to water.

“Yeah, but in your case you also recognise that you are one of the rare ones in the hisory of the planet who have awakened it so you claim to be special”

Yes, relative to the masses, it has always been a rare happening. But there have been millions upon millions of those who have become awakened. Though it is rare, it is nothing special. If it appears special, it is simply a matter of numbers. Because something is not so common - it can appear special, but that is simply a projection. If walking on legs were not so common, that too would be considered special.

"I earlier said yogis who have been working on their sadhana have been doing it for 10, 20 and 30 years - and you said “They are all fakes”

Please quote me when I have said such a thing. You are simply inventing your own nonsense, which reflects your own deceptive mind. With such intentions - I cannot conceive how you can even consider yourself spiritual.

#549

“But there have been millions upon millions of those who have become awakened. Though it is rare, it is nothing special.”

Amir, please take care when referring to numbers ranging in the millions. I disagree with this figure as well as other instances when such numbers have been estimated. You are clearly contradicting yourself in stating the rarity of awakening, and then subsequently exaggerating statistically. It is impractical, and unnecessarily undermines your credibility.

In addition, statements regarding imperceived heirarchy, whether actual or ideal are not entirely relevant. Intellectually one may state that in awareness, an absence of perceived superiority or inferiority is present, but it is possible that relevant unconsiousness remains hidden from one’s own awareness.

If it is so, this may be evident to others, irregardless of debate on the matter.

Thanks.

#550

"“But there have been millions upon millions of those who have become awakened. Though it is rare, it is nothing special.”

Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book?

#551

Tony,

This thread revolves primarily around a collection of individuals desiring to possess that which cannot be contained, in much the same way a pack of wolves will hungrily scavenge for a bone tossed into a clearing.

If the reward of security were tangible, it would satisfy for a moment, leaving hunger in it’s place once more.

This is the nature of man and beast.

Fear of death of physicality, or individuality.

Have compassion, yet do not become entangled.

#552

“Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book?”

I believe it to be an estimate, which is the only possibility, yet not carefully determined.

Of course, Amir may further elaborate.

#553

This was an interlude, a lull between waves and another wave just hit me ; this is piffle. Y’all have fun while it lasts. Don’t waste your time arguing…you are really saying good-bye. If any person here was looking at any person here while dying I think you’d reach out with your heart as humans were meant to. Later

#554

Sarva,

“Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book”

It is out of my own reasoning. When I say that there have been millions upon millions who have become awakened, you may think that this is a large number of people. But it is absolutely nothing in comparison to all of the people who have ever lived and died on this planet. There have been realized Buddhas within all of the traditions as well as their many sects and subsects - Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Sufism, mystic Christianity, atheists, and so on. And those which have been recorded are just those which are known - there have been so many realized Buddhas whom history has not even recorded, whose names will never be known to the world.

#555

Ah, so it was not out of your direct experience, it was out of your reasoning :wink:

You joker :smiley:

#556

The definition of Yoga has evolved in modern times to mean only the physical exercise for the most part, which in my opinion is a complete wast of ones time. You are better off going to a gym or doing a martial art. Modern Yogi’s have also included many life denying tendencies of the Buddhist and Jains.

The Vedic lineage was much more practical and at the same time more sublime. The householder rituals in themselves are incredibly deep. The siting and standing asana, pranayama and the focus on light moving through the chakras are an integral part of many Vedic rituals. These were the earliest manifestations of Yoga and the heart of the practice.

All the ancient literature on Yoga including those on Hatha and Ashtanga fall under the Hindu cannon and even those that may not at least have a dedication to a deva or devi, making them mostly from the Hindu perspective.

Much of world history is falsely re-written from a very western point of view. This is becoming very obvious in the study Egyptology. But it is taking longer for this realization when it comes to Indian history, because of the fabricated fear of ‘Hindu Fundamentalism’ (the greatest oxymoron ever perpetuated - though the silliness of this notion will become apparent eventually).

I am not worried. India will get it’s due credit in time…

For more on Vedic vs. Sramanic approach, read my ‘Thoughts on Meditation’ thread.