"“But there have been millions upon millions of those who have become awakened. Though it is rare, it is nothing special.”
Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book?
Tony,
This thread revolves primarily around a collection of individuals desiring to possess that which cannot be contained, in much the same way a pack of wolves will hungrily scavenge for a bone tossed into a clearing.
If the reward of security were tangible, it would satisfy for a moment, leaving hunger in it’s place once more.
This is the nature of man and beast.
Fear of death of physicality, or individuality.
Have compassion, yet do not become entangled.
“Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book?”
I believe it to be an estimate, which is the only possibility, yet not carefully determined.
Of course, Amir may further elaborate.
This was an interlude, a lull between waves and another wave just hit me ; this is piffle. Y’all have fun while it lasts. Don’t waste your time arguing…you are really saying good-bye. If any person here was looking at any person here while dying I think you’d reach out with your heart as humans were meant to. Later
Sarva,
“Only question I have is how do you know, did you experience this directly or read it somewhere in a book”
It is out of my own reasoning. When I say that there have been millions upon millions who have become awakened, you may think that this is a large number of people. But it is absolutely nothing in comparison to all of the people who have ever lived and died on this planet. There have been realized Buddhas within all of the traditions as well as their many sects and subsects - Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Sufism, mystic Christianity, atheists, and so on. And those which have been recorded are just those which are known - there have been so many realized Buddhas whom history has not even recorded, whose names will never be known to the world.
Ah, so it was not out of your direct experience, it was out of your reasoning 
You joker 
The definition of Yoga has evolved in modern times to mean only the physical exercise for the most part, which in my opinion is a complete wast of ones time. You are better off going to a gym or doing a martial art. Modern Yogi’s have also included many life denying tendencies of the Buddhist and Jains.
The Vedic lineage was much more practical and at the same time more sublime. The householder rituals in themselves are incredibly deep. The siting and standing asana, pranayama and the focus on light moving through the chakras are an integral part of many Vedic rituals. These were the earliest manifestations of Yoga and the heart of the practice.
All the ancient literature on Yoga including those on Hatha and Ashtanga fall under the Hindu cannon and even those that may not at least have a dedication to a deva or devi, making them mostly from the Hindu perspective.
Much of world history is falsely re-written from a very western point of view. This is becoming very obvious in the study Egyptology. But it is taking longer for this realization when it comes to Indian history, because of the fabricated fear of ‘Hindu Fundamentalism’ (the greatest oxymoron ever perpetuated - though the silliness of this notion will become apparent eventually).
I am not worried. India will get it’s due credit in time…
For more on Vedic vs. Sramanic approach, read my ‘Thoughts on Meditation’ thread.
studio?? lol… are we producing entertainment here…
as buddha says “life is a suffering”. u r here for one reason only…
[QUOTE=sonictantra;64357]
as buddha says “life is a suffering”. u r here for one reason only…[/QUOTE]
Hmmmm…I question that ‘life is suffering.’ For you maybe…
…
Ok, I will give my take, as the Buddha had many teachers from both the Brahmana and Sramana lineages. In the Vedas, there are later discourses that life itself is a ‘Yagna,’ that is a constant reformation of matter that must die for new things to be created. I believe the Buddha interpreted these teachings (from live people, not from the Vedas) as ‘life is suffering.’ The pre-Jain Sramanas were probably also an influence who introduced Reincarnation proper where all lifeforms literally take on other bodies with each birth (as apposed to dissolving into ‘elements’ that recombine). Sankara, the Hindu reformer, liked the later idea better and incorporated that into the teachings.
But I think it is a strange assumption to say ‘life is suffering.’ I will get more into this as I have read a lot of the source Sanskrit texts and have come up with my own theories on why Buddhism did not flourish in India, but lived instead within the teaching of the North Indian Vaishnava schools and the South Indian Sankara schools (neither of which I agree with completely).
Kasi,
“All the ancient literature on Yoga including those on Hatha and Ashtanga fall under the Hindu cannon and even those that may not at least have a dedication to a deva or devi, making them mostly from the Hindu perspective.”
Certainly, the yogic sciences have been discovered in India by the Hindus. But it is important for us to understand that if we are speaking of yoga, then we are not speaking of any particular belief system or religion, we are simply speaking of a methodology and technology which is scientific, which has been born out of thousands of years of investigation into the being of man himself. And to understand what “yoga” is, is not something that can be learned from any scripture or religion, you will have to enter into the innermost depths of your own being and come to know yourself - it is only something that can arise out of direct experience. If one insists that “yoga” is a belief system rather than a technology - then one will have to then investigate into what is the real “yoga” - the atheistic yoga of Samkhya or the Charvakas, the “yoga” of the Buddhists which have a belief system which is in direct rejection of the Hindu philosophy, or the Jain “yoga”, or the Advaita “yoga” - which is opposite to the philosophy adopted by Patanjali which is strongly dualistic, or the philosophical model that is used in Patanjalis “yoga” - and one can go on and on as to the various different traditions and belief systems which have used yoga. Because while ones belief systems and traditions may be different - yoga is itself simply a technology for the expansion of consciousness. And even if you are clinging to merely borrowed knowledge, then one will find it tremendously difficult to define “yoga” in any fixed way, so many approaches and methods have been used in the work of the expansion of consciousness towards ones enlightenment, that it is almost impossible to cast a shoe-box on the vast valley.
Yes, yoga has been discovered in India, just as electricity had been discovered in the West. But neither yoga is Indian, nor electricity is Western. If one is to set aside all belief systems and enter into the very heart of the matter, then the word itself simply means “Union”. If you come to know of a state of consciousness in which you are in direct communion with your own true nature, then you are in a state of yoga. Patanjali has said that Yoga is none other than the stillness of the mind, and once the activity of the mind has come to a stillness, then the Seer sees into itself. Vyasa has said “Yoga is Samadhi”. If you come to direct experience of samadhi, then you are in a state of yoga. Even if you are American, Chinese, Japanese, British, or an alien living on another planet - still you have discovered a state of yoga. That is why yoga is scientific, it has to do with discovery, not with imagination, and anything which is a discovery is a scientific phenomenon - though we may give it different names. Whether you call the conscious mind “jagrata” (waking state) or whether you call it the conscious mind, makes no difference at all. These are all just fingers pointing to the moon, attempts to express the inexpressible, and unless you have a direct vision into the inexpressible, then all of ones thinking and believing is just going to be like one trying to swallow the whole ocean into ones belly, or trying to grasp the vastness of space into ones fist.
Kasi,
’ I believe the Buddha interpreted these teachings (from live people, not from the Vedas) as ‘life is suffering.’
It has absolutely nothing to do with borrowed knowledge, what Gautama Buddha has seen was out of ones own direct insight into seeing things as they are. And if you have clear eyes, then you will be able to verify the same phenomenon - that life for most people who are living in a deep sleep is certainly full of suffering. By ’ suffering ‘, one does not mean being dragged and thrown into some kind of torture chamber. ’ Suffering’ simply means, that for one reason or another, you are simply not contented with things as they are. You may be trying to achieve all kinds of things in the world, but whatever is achieved is not going to be capable of providing anything more than temporary sastifaction. That is natural - the whole universe is in a constant state of change, the flux is unceasing. Not just the whole universe, but the mind and body themselves are also in a constant stream of change. So if you are clinging to anything which may arise in your experience rather than moving in harmony with the stream of things, then it is certain to create immense suffering for oneself. This is not a belief or a philosophy - this is simply direct insight into things as they are.
'The pre-Jain Sramanas were probably also an influence who introduced Reincarnation proper where all lifeforms literally take on other bodies with each birth (as apposed to dissolving into ‘elements’ that recombine). Sankara, the Hindu reformer, liked the later idea better ’
For one such as yourself, so called ‘reincarnation’ is just that - nothing more than an idea. But for one who has come to know oneself, through and through, it is simply a scientific fact. How ‘reincarnation’ is interpreted is another matter entirely, but it is not something which is born out of philosophy. Because once you enter into the deeper levels of your unconscious through meditation - then you will discover so many memories of so called past lives - not just memories of being a human, but there may be memories of being a bird, a dog, a lion, a fly or a worm - a whole history of life has been recorded in the depths of one uncosncious. There is certain information that has entered into ones mind which is just what your mind has gathered in this life, and there is certain information your mind has gathered at birth as a result of thousands of years of evolution, which is impersonal. And what is certain is that if your energies have taken the form of past lives, then they are certain to manifest in future lives. Nothing in existence is ever created or destroyed, it is just recycled in countless different ways. So while ‘reincarnation’ may be just an idea for those who have yet to come to such discoveries, for those who have been walking the path towards their awakening and have come to a certain direct experience of such things, it is simply a scientific phenomenon.
Amir
No doubt, the practices behind Yoga are universal and can be found in many cultures around the world. I get more into this in my posting “thoughts on meditation.”
The word ‘Yoga’ on the other hand was only used in the Hindu cannon of Sanskrit literature until recently. The means of combining asana, pranayama, mudra, dhyana and dharana is unique to Hindu literature (until recently).
But that does not mean that other cultures did not share a lot of similarities. It is almost the same ideas using different languages.
The Kabbalist uses light and ‘chakra’ like visualizations in a similar way.
The Kahuna of Hawaii use similar breathing exercises (as do the Taoists)
The Ancient Egyptians used ‘mudra’ like hand gestures in seated and standing positions that can be considered 'asanas.'
No doubt ‘dharana’ techniques are used in most mystic schools from Sufi to Magi to Druids. Most often as patterns similar to ‘yantras’ and holy words, letters and symbols (mantras, etc.)
Even though they are all similar, I would not use these Sanskrit terms for them because they are different routes to climb the same tree, and I want to respect the cultures they come from.
The Yogic terms you are using are from Hindu sources. You can do the same practice with no terms, or chose any other cultural term, and you will reach the same. The truth is universal.
But ‘Yoga’ is Hindu.
[QUOTE=AmirMourad;64386]But for one who has come to know oneself, through and through, it is simply a scientific fact.[/QUOTE]
I take it you must know yourself. Thinking this is the first step to not knowing ones self.
Having studied Yoga for decades, and having meditated every morning for 30+ years (and sometimes full days and nights or more when the chance was there), I have experienced many amazing things.
But I am much more rigorous on what I would consider ‘scientific fact.’ A personal experience is not a scientific fact, though I do think there are aspects of reality that science in it’s present state can not reach.
We interpret our experiences to what we know. Carl Sagan has shown how an experience that a previous culture would have attributed to daemons in our modern culture is attributed to space aliens.
I think ‘reincarnation’ is one of those kinds of experiences. I’ve experienced oneness with everything, had the feeling of a millions years in the past and in the future and watching it all from above, but from the present knowledge of ‘scientific fact’ my interpretation fits well with what we know about DNA and our genes - our real self as known at this point in ‘scientific fact.’
I am not saying that is it for sure, but I still try to match my observations with the observations around me. Have you heard of the blind men and the elephant?
Also, reincarnation is a late development in Hindu literature. Yet, the idea that we are made of the same star ‘stuff’ that reshapes itself from old life to new is acknowledged as far back as the Vedas. It still does not make it true. I just think it is an interesting coincidence. I am willing to go with this for now at least.
By the way, if yoga and meditation are all that great, than why are there so much greatness in the world done by people who don’t do yoga or meditate and so many wacked out yogis and meditation experts?
I think there are way to many delusional people, and the practice in it’s present form is not helping.
Time to get back to the source!
The skillful methods and techniques of the yogic sciences help prepare one to experience with pure consciousness, void of illusions, else one may simply catch a warped glimpse of what they want to experience. No doubt there have been those who have accidently stumbled blindly beyond the three consciousnesses into absolute reality but the encounter tainted with hard wired delusions.
May ‘your’ God got with you
Namaste
Kasi,
A personal experience is not a scientific fact, though I do think there are aspects of reality that science in it's present state can not reach.
There is a difference between a personal experience and a scientific process. The spiritual sciences involve the subjective, but that doesn`t mean it is not a scientific process. There is a certain science behind how the mechanism of the mind and body are functioning, as well as a science as to how to explore every dimension of what a human being is. When we say a science, we are talking about a methodology for exploration. Yoga is a science in that, through certain experiments, you can explore the deepest dimensions of existence within your own being.
[QUOTE=Kasi;64394]I take it you must know yourself. Thinking this is the first step to not knowing ones self.
Also, reincarnation is a late development in Hindu literature. Yet, the idea that we are made of the same star 'stuff' that reshapes itself from old life to new is acknowledged as far back as the Vedas. It still does not make it true. I just think it is an interesting coincidence. I am willing to go with this for now at least.
The idea of reincarnation is not something which is just limited to what the Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, and Sikhs have been talking about. In Chinese alchemy, they have always been talking about it. In Taoism, they have always known of it. The ancient Egyptians, who were adept in their own ways in the spiritual sciences, were familiar with it. It is something which has been known for ages, though the fact that many different cultures and spiritual traditions have been talking about it means nothing by itself. The reason why reincarnation is considered something scientific for those who have experienced it is simply because, if you access certain depths of the unconscious, one will find not just memories which have been gathered in this life, but memories which have been recorded which extend beyond this life which are impersonal. There are many methods in yoga to be able to discriminate between whether these memories are just your imagination, or whether they are actualities. In either case, whether there is such a thing as reincarnation or not is totally irrelevant. What is relevant is to come to know oneself right now. Whether or not there are past lives, it comes to the same - what you are right now as a personality is a result of so many memories which have been gathered in the unconscious, which are influencing the present in so many different ways.
By the way, if yoga and meditation are all that great, than why are there so much greatness in the world done by people who don't do yoga or meditate and so many wacked out yogis and meditation experts?
I do not know what you mean by greatness. Definitely man has achieved much without the spiritual sciences. But if we are to truly enjoy any of these achievements, man must be free of suffering. And, most of the problems of humanity are entirely creations of the mind. Unless we deal with the mind directly, we will be trying to solve all of the symptoms of a problem rather than striking to the root causes. At the end of the day, all of our efforts are just for one thing - whether we know it or not, happiness. Even the person who wants to enter into heaven with God, is only believing in such an idea because he thinks God is going to be the source of his happiness.
I think there are way to many delusional people, and the practice in it's present form is not helping.
Time to get back to the source!``
That is true. What is being offered today in the Western marketplace as yoga has not really helped people. In many cases it has only helped to magnify one`s delusions. A tool is just a tool. You can create medicine out of it and you can also create poison out of it. It all depends on the quality of the mind which is using any method.
Jesus taught the path of love - the purest form of Bhakti. Few really understand his message of tolerance and universal brotherhood. Real Christians commune with Jesus in the same way yogis worship their gurus. All is One, why see differences?
Do some research on christian mystics and saints. People like saint Theresa of Avila and others took Christianity to a mystic level that approached eastern philosophies in character and content. You may be surprised. Human “Spirituality” is the well spring of all religions.
I’m on the other side of the equation: I’m an agnostic with a deep distrust of all religions. I had a problem initially with chanting, yet a few stuck with me. I do the Anusara invocation to myself before class because it is no longer chanted out loud. I know it is to Shiva, but it feels like a Gregorian chant. I also chant the “lokah samasta sukhino bhavantu” chant, finding the “melody” contour pleasing.
Ed S.
Yoga is the reunion of body with soul. Once practised it definitely helps mind and body to relax.
Whatever religion we belong yoga causes improved health benefits due to more supply of oxygen in the body cells.
So do yoga…pranayama and meditation.