[QUOTE=Pawel;33680]When you learn about non-Eastern concepts like democracy, equality, civil rights [/QUOTE]
hahahahahaha…sorry
yup after a loooooooooooooong time we’ve a (half) black U.S president & we’ll definitely see a black pope in the near future of course we should forget about the crusaders, the KKK, the dot busters etc. surely democracy equality & civil rights are improving in the wild wild west.
for eastern concepts we have somethin better in “Vasudhaiva Kutumbam”
[QUOTE=The Scales;33542]Hinduism is yoga.[/QUOTE]
Hinduism is too big to be just yoga.
[QUOTE=PatR;33687]hahahahahaha…sorry
yup after a loooooooooooooong time we’ve a (half) black U.S president & we’ll definitely see a black pope in the near future of course we should forget about the crusaders, the KKK, the dot busters etc. surely democracy equality & civil rights are improving in the wild wild west.
for eastern concepts we have somethin better in “Vasudhaiva Kutumbam”[/QUOTE]
You could also add slavery, holocaust, pollution. The list is long and has to be reminded at all times (but in a respectful way - there are real victims behind those terms). I added just positive examples because Surya Deva also added positive ones.
[QUOTE=Pawel;33689]I added just positive examples because Surya Deva also added positive ones.[/QUOTE]
than you should’ve chosen some real good examples, I mean we don’t need lectures on equality & democracy from westerners & arabs.
[QUOTE=PatR;33693]than you should’ve chosen some real good examples, I mean we don’t need lectures on equality & democracy from westerners & arabs.[/QUOTE]
You have an interesting reaction. You seem to be offended that I used those examples and think that by that I imply they are not present in Hindu culture. And by that I think the “west” is superior. Am I right? If yes, that is interesting that you have this reaction by reading mirrored Surya Deva post. Then I could also be offended by his initial post - few of those terms are present in “western” philosophy - “and we don’t need lectures on spirituality from hindu&bangladeshi”.
I just want to say that respect should be mutual and what you expect from others you should provide to others as well. We all are all travelers and if the reincarnation is true, we have been living in Africa/Asia/America/Europe/Australia pretty much the same number of times. On what grounds than we claim that we represent given tradition? Are few years of studies and enduring ceremonies enough to be real representative? And what would be a better service: developing antagonisms or promoting learning and exchange?
[quote=Surya Deva;33537]
It is blatantly obvious Yoga is Hinduism. It is not just a property of Hindusim. It is through and through Hinduism.[/quote]
My problem really is not this but the very fact that you try to limit something universal, something deeply human by linking it to an exoteric religion. Noone denies the role and importance of what you say. Yet, this definitley does not make hindusim the only true religion. Neither it elevates hindusim from being an exoteric religion to being the only salvation for humankind.
By the way, yoga is not the only way of initiation into the suprasensible. It never was and it is clearly not the only one today.
[QUOTE=Hubert;33695]Yet, this definitley does not make hindusim the only true religion. Neither it elevates hindusim from being an exoteric religion to being the only salvation for humankind.[/QUOTE]
Bravo! The best method of avoiding wisdom and truth, is to assert the fallacy that one can know anything, with 100% certainty.
I want to make one thing very clear to Westerners. Yoga is a Hindu discovery and never forget this. Yes, it is can be used by everbody, but this does not change the fact that Yoga was developed by Hindus after their philosophical explorations and phenomenological studies(how the breath and the mind are linked, what postures, breathing techniques produce the best energy)
We Hindus are not claiming the railroad is a Hindu discovery, even the though railroads can be used by everybody as well. It would be completely disingenious to deny that the railroads are Western discoveries and are the products of industrial capitalist ideology and the works of Western empiricists. Likewise, it is completely disingenious to deny that Yoga is a Hindu discovery, it is the product of Hindu philosophy and is based on the works of Hindus.
I am going to be very blatent about this: Yoga is not your discovery.
The claim that Yoga is anything but Hindu, and to shamelessly rip it out, is actually a hostile act to the Hindu culture.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33701]it is completely disingenious to deny that Yoga is a Hindu discovery, it is the product of Hindu philosophy and is based on the works of Hindus.
Yoga is not your discovery.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100%. It would be hard to contest that Yoga is a product of Hindu philosophy, and I have a great respect for the origins. I love listening to Hindu chants (particularly my Ravi Shankar CD), and I have a couple of Hindu deity statues in my room.
I do utilize Yoga as a method for health and happiness, just as I do Buddhist meditation as a method for health and happiness. I think it is good to learn and appreciate the origins of the things in our life that bring so much. Similarly, I’m an Atheist/Agnostic who loves the Christmas holiday, and I like to know about it’s origins, and appreciate it’s traditions.
He is offended because the examples you are using is insinuating that good virtues like democracy, civil rights, and equality are exclusive to the West, when they are not. In fact democracy, civil rights and equality is far older than the Greeks and the ealiest evidence of this is exists with the Hindus. For example Indus valley cites clearly show a middle-class society where everybody is living in standardized homes with bathrooms, drinking wells, kitchens. The convening of organizations and peer groups known as “samapradayas” where decisions would be taken democratically is a very ancient Hindu tradition.
The Greeks inherited most of their knowledge from the Hindus anyway. It is very clear the Greeks borrowed very heavily from the Hindus, and every philosophical tradition in Greece has a Hindu precursor.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33703]He is offended because the examples you are using is insinuating that good virtues like democracy, civil rights, and equality are exclusive to the West, when they are not. In fact democracy, civil rights and equality is far older than the Greeks and the ealiest evidence of this is exists with the Hindus. For example Indus valley cites clearly show a middle-class society where everybody is living in standardized homes with bathrooms, drinking wells, kitchens. The convening of organizations and peer groups known as “samapradayas” where decisions would be taken democratically is a very ancient Hindu tradition.
The Greeks inherited most of their knowledge from the Hindus anyway. It is very clear the Greeks borrowed very heavily from the Hindus, and every philosophical tradition in Greece has a Hindu precursor.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t insinuate anything except things you were insinuating. I just mirrored what you have said. Few of those concepts you used in your original post are not absent in other traditions than Hinduism. Should members of those traditions feel offended then by your post?
[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;33621]I suppose that this sentiment must be extended to anyone trying to understand concepts not developed by their own backgrounds, for instance: Hindus trying to understand the Trinitarianism, Confusius, or any other ism.
In that case, all hope is lost…I may as well just give up! Or, are you suggesting that Hinduism and the altruist Indian society trumps all, and that truth only exists there? Lucky you.[/QUOTE]
Well, yes clearly, if I want to understand Confusianism or trintarianism I would have to put all my Hindu culture behind, and approach it with a beginners mind so I get the same authentic cultural understanding as a native would.
However, if I start imposing my own cultural understanding, for example on thr trintarianism and state, “This is like the Hindu trinity, the creator, the preserver and the destroyer” I have fundmentally misunderstood it.
I am afraid this is exactly what is happening when Western people impose their cultural understanding on Hindu cultural notions like Yoga. So a highly technical concept like say “Purusha and Prakriti” become translated as “Spirit and Matter” and in Western culture this is synonymous with psyche/mind and matter. When this is not at all what Purusha and Prakriti is. Purusha is the pure consciousness and Prakriti is the content of pure consciousness which exists as a potential state.
So all observable objects including mind, personal identity are the content of pure consciousness. This is fundamentally different to how a Westerner translates it.
Similarly asana is not just any old exercise. It a physical position of the body that faciliates the easy flow of pranic energy to prepare oneself for the higher practices of meditation.
Indian Yoga comes from india. Right?
But at the same time these are timeless universal principles.
Along time ago in a galaxy far far away the Jedi had their “system.”
[QUOTE=The Scales;33709]Along time ago in a galaxy far far away the Jedi had their “system.” [/QUOTE]
Sounds like your referring to Scientology lol
…“my daddy is bigger than yours?” Right?
[quote=Surya Deva;33703]
The Greeks inherited most of their knowledge from the Hindus anyway. It is very clear the Greeks borrowed very heavily from the Hindus, and every philosophical tradition in Greece has a Hindu precursor.[/quote]
What about Pythagoras? Is geometry Greek or Hindu?
The question is NOT how did it start or who actually invented it, but do I have to know the whole history, culture, language and philosophy, etc., in other words do I have to be Greek to get A+B=C2? The point is I don’t even have to be a mathematician and the numbers will always add up, perfectly (although I would need a calculator).
It’s Greek to me,
siva
Great respect to Mother India. Her wisdom is even greater than it is known or realised today. I did like the point made about the greeks, very true. Yet it shows something. That what we know today as colorful tableau of cultures and religions, had gone through [B]development.[/B] Every single one of them has it’s reason to exist. I strongly believe in the purpose of creation, and that evil or, bad is only something good applied in a wrong place or time.
Trying to make any of them superior without knowing all of them well, and comprehending them, is superficial.
Cultures, religions, are not equal. In certain areas they might even be far superior to the other, yet, it is my strong belief that all of them are true. Not silly systems of opression, but true keepers of suprasensorial events/heritage. Even atheism/agnosticism is true, at least to it’s adherents. These are honest people who refuse to believe in things they cannot seem to grasp by their sensorial minds. And indeed isn’t this the most honest thing to do if one finds him/herself situated in a materialist scientific world ?
If these people would like to be a bit more honest, though, they would have to really ask themselves some questions about their own inner existence, and see if the theocrafting of science will be able to give them satisfying answers. But in order to do this, they would need to ask earnest questions, and my expereince is that due to unconscious blocks, people only ask these questions when they enter some form of existential crysis. When philosophy stops becoming a scholastic, intellectual activity, but an endeavour where the stake is our own living or dying, only then the real questions are born in one’s soul.
[quote=Surya Deva;33703]He is offended because the examples you are using is insinuating that good virtues like democracy, civil rights, and equality are exclusive to the West, when they are not. In fact democracy, civil rights and equality is far older than the Greeks and the ealiest evidence of this is exists with the Hindus. For example Indus valley cites clearly show a middle-class society where everybody is living in standardized homes with bathrooms, drinking wells, kitchens. The convening of organizations and peer groups known as “samapradayas” where decisions would be taken democratically is a very ancient Hindu tradition.
The Greeks inherited most of their knowledge from the Hindus anyway. It is very clear the Greeks borrowed very heavily from the Hindus, and every philosophical tradition in Greece has a Hindu precursor.[/quote]
On the other hand, this line of thought clearly lacks any sense for development, or evolution throughout human history.
The indian soul indeed is trapped by the glory of it’s past. It is true, that known human history begins with the great proto-indian civilization. And the extraordinary richness and wealth of knowledge about spiritual realities, of what the now existing, and even in it’s fragments grand and marvelous cultural heritage is only a description, this extraordinary knowledge of the spiritual world, is the living memory of a humankind descending to the physical plane, and losing direct sight of it’s former home. What the souls like Surya Deva seem to miss is that there indeed is an evolution of human consciousness. It’s a common mistake to project back the abilities and consciusness we posess today to ages we forgot, but this automatic unquestioned assumption is wrong.
The fact that evidence exists about the ideas of human rights and equality in the protoindian civilization does not change the fact, that our very own judicial systems today are built on what started to develop only in the roman period. And while a few elect might have lived in equality in Mohendjo Daro, slavery was existing up to the XIXth century. One must be very biased to not realize that the birth of free human individuality indeed is relatively recent, and that regardless of depth and wisdom, western civilization was what brought the world forward in many areas. It brought diversity, and richness exactly through the individual element, the ever more couragous, daring, creating powers of souls like Beethowen, Mozart, Rafael, but let us not just name artists but let us not forget spiritual artists like Saint Francis of Assisi, or Saint John of The Cross, or a Cristopher Columbus, or the countless important political figures, who shaped our history in ways what were unimaginable before.
The idea of pointless reincarnations, as penalties or rewards for good or bad deeds is wrong. Divine justice works on a much higher level, and incarnations are not only a mechanic result of former actions, but opportunities for growth, and individualization. If two yogis reach the summit of their art/practice, there will be no difference between them whatsoever, they are disolved into Brahman, without retaining any individuality. But Mozart will be still Mozart, and thus unique. We do have the ability to become creators, undying, and beatiful, without ever losing our individualities. I am not talking about those things we all know will perish at death. I am talking about genuine values, and as one of my teachers said, no moral energy is ever lost in the Universe, I am certain that genuine value will stand the test of time forever. And if we see things this way than any attempt what tries to make people lose some genuine value they own is false, and any attempt what uses our diversity to separate us, is evil. Love only can exist if there is something to love. Diversity, and the existence of the other is what makes love possible. Indeed, the magic word is not Me, but it should be You. Me can make me strong, but You make me forget about myself, make me alive on a whole new level.
[QUOTE=Pawel;33704]Few of those concepts you used in your original post are not absent in other traditions than Hinduism. Should members of those traditions feel offended then by your post?[/QUOTE]
exactly, no should be offended & there are reasons for this:
this is a Yoga specific forum & on a Yoga forum the thread starter has asked to learn Yogic concepts from indians Yogis not on buddhachat.com or elitetraders.com & of course if not on Yoga forum than where else?
no where he has said these concepts don’t exist in other traditions, so members from other traditions have no right to get offended.
the thread starter has said “non-Western concepts” & it would be very difficult for you or any westerner to prove that concepts like karma, yoga, ahamkara, gunas, avatars, buddhi, atman, brahman, purusha, prakriti, shiva, shakti, chakras, nadis, kundalini, chit vritti nirodha, klesha, aklesha, deva, sharira, manu, varna, vedas, pramana, siddhis, nirvana samadhi do exist in the western culture. So there’s no reason for even a westerner to get offended.
Now look at your choice of words equality —democracy— civil rights, is that all your mirror on the wall could come up with?
what does this mean “When you learn about non-Eastern concepts like equality”, can you explain? what made you think these are non-Eastern concepts? mebbe you thought casteist hindus need to learn a lesson or two on equality from us.
your mirror image response to the threads main contention is completely out of context, sorry.
[QUOTE=PatR;33765] 02) no where he has said these concepts don’t exist in other traditions, so members from other traditions have no right to get offended. [/QUOTE]
True. Then, by logical conclusion I didn’t say that either. I used the same phrases as Surya Deva. So no need to be offended at both sides! 
Personally, I don’t think those concepts like equality or democracy don’t exist in “eastern” traditions. They are too general to be culture specific (as well as concept of Deva for example – common, this is world prevalent concept; it would be hard to find a culture without this concept). However, majority of those terms are specific to Hindu tradition.
[QUOTE=PatR;33765] your mirror image response to the threads main contention is completely out of context, sorry. [/QUOTE]
Maybe it was. As well as your expression “westerners&arabs” (that was hilariously offensive 
). But I wanted to check whether there are some other intentions and feelings apart of desire for high standards of learning. And since I saw your and Surya Deva reactions I think it wasn’t in vain. Clearly you read more into “reflected” message than he intended in first place. I like to use this technique to check whether the message/action (someone else or mine) is pure or have some hidden component. If I can look into the mirror, put myself on the other side of my message/action and still see myself the same way, then I am aware of my intentions. If I see differences, it means I’m hiding/avoiding/missing something. Do you really think that people in “west” do not know the concepts behind deva, atman or siddhi? Seems that subconsciously you assumed that they don’t – but skipped it because it is really irrelevant detail in the context of the message. However, this detail becomes painful when reflected - when you perceive it from other side. Then your understanding comes out. And you think I said that equality is not present in Hindu culture. So you contradict yourself claiming that Surya Deva didn’t say that these concepts are not present in other cultures and simultaneously claiming that I said such thing in context of equality etc.
All religions have similar core and a lot of external differences.
Theres no contradiction with other religions. We may use different words, and for some of us its more pleasant to hear “Christianity”, for others - “Hinduism”. But they are just labels that we got used to.
Non essential details.