Westerners approaching non-Western traditions

Yoga Discussion General Yoga
#41

[QUOTE=Pawel;33704]Few of those concepts you used in your original post are not absent in other traditions than Hinduism. Should members of those traditions feel offended then by your post?[/QUOTE]

exactly, no should be offended & there are reasons for this:

  1. this is a Yoga specific forum & on a Yoga forum the thread starter has asked to learn Yogic concepts from indians Yogis not on buddhachat.com or elitetraders.com & of course if not on Yoga forum than where else?

  2. no where he has said these concepts don’t exist in other traditions, so members from other traditions have no right to get offended.

  3. the thread starter has said “non-Western concepts” & it would be very difficult for you or any westerner to prove that concepts like karma, yoga, ahamkara, gunas, avatars, buddhi, atman, brahman, purusha, prakriti, shiva, shakti, chakras, nadis, kundalini, chit vritti nirodha, klesha, aklesha, deva, sharira, manu, varna, vedas, pramana, siddhis, nirvana samadhi do exist in the western culture. So there’s no reason for even a westerner to get offended.

Now look at your choice of words equality —democracy— civil rights, is that all your mirror on the wall could come up with?

what does this mean “When you learn about non-Eastern concepts like equality”, can you explain? what made you think these are non-Eastern concepts? mebbe you thought casteist hindus need to learn a lesson or two on equality from us.

your mirror image response to the threads main contention is completely out of context, sorry.

#42

[QUOTE=PatR;33765] 02) no where he has said these concepts don’t exist in other traditions, so members from other traditions have no right to get offended. [/QUOTE]

True. Then, by logical conclusion I didn’t say that either. I used the same phrases as Surya Deva. So no need to be offended at both sides! :slight_smile: Personally, I don’t think those concepts like equality or democracy don’t exist in “eastern” traditions. They are too general to be culture specific (as well as concept of Deva for example – common, this is world prevalent concept; it would be hard to find a culture without this concept). However, majority of those terms are specific to Hindu tradition.

[QUOTE=PatR;33765] your mirror image response to the threads main contention is completely out of context, sorry. [/QUOTE]

Maybe it was. As well as your expression “westerners&arabs” :slight_smile: (that was hilariously offensive :smiley: ). But I wanted to check whether there are some other intentions and feelings apart of desire for high standards of learning. And since I saw your and Surya Deva reactions I think it wasn’t in vain. Clearly you read more into “reflected” message than he intended in first place. I like to use this technique to check whether the message/action (someone else or mine) is pure or have some hidden component. If I can look into the mirror, put myself on the other side of my message/action and still see myself the same way, then I am aware of my intentions. If I see differences, it means I’m hiding/avoiding/missing something. Do you really think that people in “west” do not know the concepts behind deva, atman or siddhi? Seems that subconsciously you assumed that they don’t – but skipped it because it is really irrelevant detail in the context of the message. However, this detail becomes painful when reflected - when you perceive it from other side. Then your understanding comes out. And you think I said that equality is not present in Hindu culture. So you contradict yourself claiming that Surya Deva didn’t say that these concepts are not present in other cultures and simultaneously claiming that I said such thing in context of equality etc.

#43

All religions have similar core and a lot of external differences.

Theres no contradiction with other religions. We may use different words, and for some of us its more pleasant to hear “Christianity”, for others - “Hinduism”. But they are just labels that we got used to.
Non essential details.

#44

What about Pythagoras? Is geometry Greek or Hindu?

There is clear evidence that that both the pre-socratic and platonic philosophy was strongly influenced by Hinduism. The so-called Pythagorean theorem was already well known to Hindus and an algberic proof was given.

The influence of Hindusim on pythagoras is also very visible.

Some evidence from scholars:

According to Voltaire, “The Greeks, before the time of Pythagoras, traveled into India for instruction. The signs of the seven planets and of the seven metals are still almost all over the earth, such as the Indians invented: the Arabians were obliged to adopt their cyphers.”

(source: The Philosophy of History p. 527).

According to Greek tradition, Pythagoras, Thales, Empedocles, Anaxagoras, Democritus and others undertook journey to the East to study philosophy and science. By the time Ptolmaic Egypt and Rome?s Eastern empire had established themselves just before the beginning of the Common era, Indian civilization was already well developed, having founded three great religions ? Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism ? and expressed in writing some subtle currents of religious thought and speculation as well as fundamental theories in science and medicine.

Similarities between Hinduism and Pythagoras:

A belief in the transmigration of souls;
the theory of four elements constituting matter;
the reasons for not eating beans;
the structure of the religio-philosophical character of the Pythagorean fraternity, which resembled Buddhist monastic orders; and
the contents of the mystical speculations of the Pythagorean schools, which bear a striking resemblance of the Hindu Upanishads

(source: The crest of the peacock: Non-European roots of Mathematics - By George Gheverghese Joseph p. 1 - 18).

Professor H. G. Rawlinson writes: " It is more likely that Pythagoras was influenced by India than by Egypt. Almost all the theories, religions, philosophical and mathematical taught by the Pythagoreans, were known in India in the sixth century B.C., and the Pythagoreans, like the Jains and the Buddhists, refrained from the destruction of life and eating meat and regarded certain vegetables such as beans as taboo" "It seems that the so-called Pythagorean theorem of the quadrature of the hypotenuse was already known to the Indians in the older Vedic times, and thus before Pythagoras (Legacy of India 1937, p. 5).

The similarity between the theory of Thales, that water is the material cause of all things, and the Vedic idea of primeval waters as the origin of the universe, was first pointed out by Richard Garbe. The resemblances, too, between the teachings of Pythagoras (ca. 582-506 B.C.) and Indian philosophy are striking. It was Sir William Jones, the founder of comparative philology, who first pointed out the pointed out the similarities between Indian and Pythagorean beliefs. Later, other scholars such as Colebrooke, Garbe, and Winternitz also testified to the Indian inspiration of Pythagoras.

(source: Eastern Religions and Western Thought - By Dr. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan p. 143).

The vast majority of mathematics is in fact Hindu. In fact the very decimal system we are using is Hindu.

Part of the reason why we Hindus have become so nationalistic recently is because we can clearly see Western history discredits all our contributions and attributes it to somebody else. Philosophy, and I mean formal philosophy is a Hindu spiritual activity. It was not founded by the Greeks, yet in Western history books all credit goes to them. Hindus taught not only the Greeks how to do philosophy they taught the Chinese as well. Hindusim, basically is formal philosophy. Likewise, the vast majority of mathematics, including the decimal systems which is crucial to maths, is once again a Hindu discovery.

There is so much we Hindus did that Western history is not acknowleding. We discovered the helocentric theory of gravitation way before Newton; We disocovered binary and binomeal numbers, so-called pascals triangle almost a millenia before and this fact has been known for more than 100 years in the West and still Western history books have not updated the wrong history they teach.

So if you are going to deny us our biggest discovery which is Yoga, you are going to make even more unhappy Hindus and add more fuel into the nationalistic fires.

#45

Another thing I should point out Western history about India, which was initially written by Christian missionaries or Christian scholars blames Hinduism for the poverty, superstition, caste discrimination and oppression of women. In the documentary, “Gods of the new age” I mentioned earlier the documentary begins first by showing all of these evils in Indian society and then saying that Hinduisim is responsible for this, and then warning that Hinduism is going to do the same to Western society now. The truth is, however, when India was a Hindu society it was very prosperous and the richest civilisation in the world in all indices. It was responsible for great advances in science, philosophy, religion and spirituality and even applied sciences(medicine, metallurgy, chemistry etc) The poverty, superstition, caste discrimination etc is the result of 300 years of exploitation, pillaging and draining of India by the British. Not Hinduism.

It is easy to see that Hindus has been pretty much the top most civilisation in 10,000 years of human history and its contributions are numerous and significant. Yet despite this, its not us Hindus that Western history credits, its the Egyptians, the Romans or the Greeks. Now they are doing the same with Yoga by claiming its not Hindu, that it was being practiced everywhere in the world by the Chinese, Native Americans, Christians, Jews, Muslims. Rubbish.

#46

The fact that evidence exists about the ideas of human rights and equality in the protoindian civilization does not change the fact, that our very own judicial systems today are built on what started to develop only in the roman period. And while a few elect might have lived in equality in Mohendjo Daro, slavery was existing up to the XIXth century. One must be very biased to not realize that the birth of free human individuality indeed is relatively recent, and that regardless of depth and wisdom, western civilization was what brought the world forward in many areas. It brought diversity, and richness exactly through the individual element, the ever more couragous, daring, creating powers of souls like Beethowen, Mozart, Rafael, but let us not just name artists but let us not forget spiritual artists like Saint Francis of Assisi, or Saint John of The Cross, or a Cristopher Columbus, or the countless important political figures, who shaped our history in ways what were unimaginable before.

Yes, the judicial systems of today, empirical science and philosophy, liberalism etc are largely based on the Greco-Roman tradition. I never deneid it wasn’t. I also do not deny people like Beethoven, Mozart, Rafael have contributed to the progress of the arts in the modern age. Most of the world we live in today is largerly founded by the progress of the West in the last 300 years. This is undeniable. It is also true that modern Indian culture is western. It’s education system is western; its legal system is western and its political and economic systems are western.

However, you cannot compare Western history to Hindu history. They are two different civilisations, two different cultures and two different timelines

Western history is traced to the Greco-Roman period which begins in 1000BCE. Hindu history goes back 10,000 years. So compared to us guys you Western people are young.
It is also clear that we Hindus have done many things before you. In 3000BCE we had planned cities, with perfectly designed roads, lanes, streets and sanitation systems with undergeround sewer systems and plumbing and standardized houses each with their drinking wells, bathrooms, kitchens. You did not have anything close to this until the 18th century. The lack of sanitation system is why you guys were hit by deadly plagues. Wheres Hindus never had to deal with deadly plagues.

We were an industralized(I am not saying we had factories!) in 1500BCE and produced many goods like spices, textiles, ivory, ships, steel, zinc, iron which were exported all over the world. As early as 3000BCE we can find Indian goods in places as far as Mesopotamia and Egypt. The quality of Indian goods is spoken of very highly by all ancient cultures, including the Roman. We were producing steel on an industrial scale as early as 500BCE. Again you did not have anything close to this until the 18th century.

We had dockyards and shipbuilding industries as early as 3000BCE in the Indus. We were exploring the high seas long and had exported our culture and even established colonies all over the world(Indonesia, Bali, Java, Fiji. Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Europe and possibly even the Americas) long before Christopher Coloumbus even set sail.

We had already made major discoveries in science and technology long before the same were made in the West. Some of our discoveries are still unmatched in the West. There is no parallel to Yoga, Sanskrit, Ayurveda, Vedanta and Hindu raaga music. We had already documented and had sophisticated cures and treatments for most diseases that the West did not even know existed until the modern age(such as diabetes) We were performing really sophisticated surgery(300 surgical procedures with 125 surgical instruments, including the use of injections) using anasthestics and sterlized our equipment and used fumigation to kill germs and even classified germs, worms and viruses in 2000-1000BCE. There nothing even close to this in the West till the 18th century, not even a germ theory. This is why so many people died in operations.

We were building massive international universities that taught sciences, philosophy, mathematics, arts, politics etc in 2000-700BCE. There was nothing close to this in the West again till the modern age.

We were also building hospitals for mass healthcare. Again there is nothing close in the West till the modern age.

The same goes for philosophy. We had incredibly developed schools of philosophy that rival the best of modern philosophical schools. Even our logical schools are as good as anything in modern analytical philosophy. In fact were doing analytical philosophy thousands of years before it began in the West in the 20th century.

When it comes arts and poetry there is still no parallel to our Chandashastra and the amazing literary devices it has its disposal and the rigorous classification of metre.

In drama there is still no parallel to Bharathari’s Natyashastra. Aristotle Poetics is puny in comparison.

Therefore it is evident that Hindu history and Western history cannot be compared. They are two different cultures and two different timelines. The Hindus seem to be at least 2000 years ahead of the West in many areas we have looked at.

#47

[QUOTE=Surya Deva;33801]In many respects the Hindus seem to be at least 2000 years ahead of the West in many areas we have looked at.[/QUOTE]

That is true to a certain degree. Hindus where doing cataract surgery, before the west even knew what a cataract was,
But your missing an important point that the Hindus have now been overtaken, and are miles behind. Thanks to Einstein, Darwin, the enlightenment period and modern science, we now have a far better idea of how the world works greater than we have ever known. Hindus are still stuck in the dark ages, and rely on primitive spiritual gobbledygook, that should’ve been left back in our earth infancy. Their science is based on religious traditions, and is no longer applicable. Hindus need to start using the simple method of looking at facts, supported by evidence, if they want to have any chance of catching back up.

#48

Surya Deva,

You miss my point completely, which is it doesn’t matter where it came from or who invented it, A2+B2=C2 and I don’t have to know where, or who, or why, or how. It works without my knowing these things, and so does yoga. It has no borders. That doesn’t mean it’s not a Hindu creation, or that Pythagorian theorem is not actually Hindu, which doesn’t surprise me, it simply means it’s not important to understand all of the philosophy, language, history, culture, etc., as you say, to make it work. It’s not necessary because it’s universal.

Your agenda is very clear but unmoving.

Ugh!
siva

#49

[QUOTE=siva;33826]Your agenda is very clear but unmoving.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree, this thread belittles Yoga, and makes it sound like a cultural contest. It’s a very small cause.

#50

You miss my point completely, which is it doesn’t matter where it came from or who invented it, A2+B2=C2 and I don’t have to know where, or who, or why, or how. It works without my knowing these things, and so does yoga.

I have two points to make.

This thread was not started because I want everbody doing Yoga to go study Hinduism. It was started because, and it was stated at the outset, that recent discussion on this forum have revealed a wrong understanding about Yoga, it’s philosophy and practice and many have made statements to the effect that Yoga was not Hindu.

The second point is just blindly doing a practice is ignorant and unheathly. Yes, the pythagorean theorem and the car be used for its practical benefits, but you still need to know the basics of how the theorem was derived and how it was developed and used in the real world, and you still need to know the basics of how the car works, its mechanisms, its engine, the basic chemical conversions. In fact the more you know the better and you will be able to have a better appeciation for your practice. If simply just doing practice was enough, why would every subject you study require studying theory? If you are training to be a surgeon you are not just taught surgicial practice, you are also taught the whole theory of medicine.

Yoga is no different to studying or doing any other subject. You learn both theory and practice. Every Yogic student needs a basic understanding of Yoga philosophy. They need to know about their pranic system(chakras, nadis, kundalini) and how it is connected to their physilogical system and was happens when you drectly affect it through physical exercise. You need to know about the stages of Yoga and the transformations it brings about in the body and mind, as well as the obstacles one is likely to encounter and solutions for them. They need to know about the Yogic theory of mind, matter and consciousness to understand why meditation is done and how the ultimate goal of Yoga is to cease the activity of the mind in order to realise consciousness.

A basic understanding of the theory and history should be mandatory for anybody doing Yoga practice. Just blindly doing the techniques first of requires faith and Yoga is not based on faith. Secondly, you are working with vital systems in your body, and if you do not know the basic workings, it could be dangerous. Thirdly, you are doing a spiritual exercise, and need to be aware of what changes this will bring. You may experience hallucinations, you may trigger off dormant traumas and memories, your body may begin to fundamentally change, you may experience Kundalini rising, you may experience disssociation from your body(spinning room) or completely leave your body. Somebody who knows the theory well will be able to manage such things, as opposed to somebody who just blindly does the practice. The yogi Gopi Kishen is one such person, who warns how he irresponsibly started doing a practice of meditating on the crown chakra, and as a result he had a premature and violent Kundalini awakening and he suffered from that for years.

Your agenda is very clear but unmoving.

Absolutely there is an agenda. It is to set the record straight. Yoga is a non-western tradition and if you are going to approach Yoga you need to approach it in its culture. Otherwise, I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: You will most definitely misunderstand it. Remember you don’t know Yoga better than the natives learned in it.

#51

Couldn’t agree more with Siva and YogiAdam. I think, contrary to what has been mentioned we all value Hinduism and what it has given us. In the end, it shouldn’t matter who is right, who is wrong, who started what etc. It only matters what is in our hearts.

#52

Do you really think that people in “west” do not know the concepts behind deva, atman or siddhi? Seems that subconsciously you assumed that they don’t – but skipped it because it is really irrelevant detail in the context of the message.

No, they do not. Please show me otherwise.

Atman, deva and siddhi are all very technical Sanskrit terms. They do not at all mean what you would translate them as into English soul, god and powers, and then pretend they are the same thing.

Atman is the same individual self or the pure consciousness within every living being that hears through all ears, sees through all eyes, tastes through all tongues etc. It is identical with Brahman(Atman = Brahman) the universal self or universal consciousness which is the entire substance of all of reality.

Deva is the intelligent power which controls, maintains and regulates the world, body and mind. It is also translated as “the sense organs” There are many of these Devas there is Indra who presides over the intellect in the mind, the weather in the world and the formations of suns in space. Agni presides as the power seeing in the mind, the digestive fire in the body, the sun in space. Vayu presides as the vital life force in the mind, the breath and the electrical currents in the body, and as wind in the world.

Siddhis are dormant abilities within the mind that are only activated when you reach a certain level of concentration power(samayama) and access the causal plane of reality an object is existing at such that you gain complete control of it(you attune into its frequency) Depending on wich object you focus your concentration a siddhi will be activated. So an example is concentrating on the light element in the body one can completely absorb all the light whereby light does not reflect back, causing invisibility.

None of these concepts exist in the West. These are completely alien and foreign concepts to the West.

#53

[QUOTE=lotusgirl;33853]Couldn’t agree more with Siva and YogiAdam. I think, contrary to what has been mentioned we all value Hinduism and what it has given us. In the end, it shouldn’t matter who is right, who is wrong, who started what etc. It only matters what is in our hearts.[/QUOTE]

This is new-age fluff talk.

What matters is what the actual text is saying. Yoga is a serious and highly technical science not new-age fluff. If you want to learn Yoga you learn it from the authentic source, not a fluffy new age book in a mind-body-spirit section in a bookstore.

#54

It was me. I stole the yoga! I crept into your tent while you sat in lotus thinking of new ways to fine-tune your caste system and subjegate your women.

There’s nothing you can do. The damage is already done. No one saw me coming - the rust of banisters, briefcases, and the dollar on my hands. You were laid back against the wall of familiar habits.

I stole the precious yoga and played with it like a ball of pleistocene. I took magic markers and drew wild patterns on its surface. Then I threw it against the wall and it shattered into a million pieces. I took the fragments and gave one to my neighbour, who put a hand to her brow and whispered a prayer that breathed fire into it and turned it into a butterfly, and it flew out lighting up the valley below. I gave another piece to my grocer who took a bite and grew tall. He shared it with his wife who gave some to her lover, healing her instantly. I gave some to a child and she poked and proded and stretched it into shapes unknown to me. The rest I cast out of the window creating an awesome wall of white bubbles a hundred feel tall obscuring the telephone poles.

One piece remains on the floor forgotten and untouched, lost in the laughter of friendly conspiracies. The one-time key to sovereign dreams now a shape, nothing but a shape. I bend down and pick up the shard and cut my finger on the rusted edges as with the sharpness of a knife.

I stole the yoga, and you cannot have it back. All you can do now is make some tea and wait for the low hum of talk outside to rise.

#55

:smiley:

Your’re lucky I am a Hindu with a sense of humour :wink:

Just a word of caution Hindus do not take nonsense now days. We are an upcoming superpower in this century and we are very proud. Upseting the Hindus would be like upsetting the Chinese. Of course we are a culture of ahimsa and will always look for peaceful options, but push us too far, we can take to violence and be as extreme as the worst of them out there. I do not support violence myself and will always look for peaceful options.

The recent actions of India patenting Yoga and Ayurvedic drugs is an indication that Hindus wll fight when push comes to shove :smiley:

#56

[quote=siva;33826]Surya Deva,

You miss my point completely, which is it doesn’t matter where it came from or who invented it, A2+B2=C2 and I don’t have to know where, or who, or why, or how. It works without my knowing these things, and so does yoga. It has no borders. That doesn’t mean it’s not a Hindu creation, or that Pythagorian theorem is not actually Hindu, which doesn’t surprise me, it simply means it’s not important to understand all of the philosophy, language, history, culture, etc., as you say, to make it work. It’s not necessary because it’s universal.

Your agenda is very clear but unmoving.

Ugh!
siva[/quote]

And what pray exactly is your own agenda,Siva?

All i have seen in your posts is what comes across as largely sarcasm and ridicule. And i can’t help but feel this must say volumes about your own practice, spiritual development or whatever.

Whatever you call yourself, a yoga teacher , you can come across as pretty arrogant at times.

Your unwillingness to learn is very unyogic and definitely stubborn.Maybe if your dropped that facade, or false sense of self, you might learn more.

The absence of an effective meditation practice is glaringly obvious in you, and whatever your sadhana might be.:cool:

#57

Just a word of caution Hindus do not take nonsense now days. We are an upcoming superpower in this century and we are very proud. Upseting the Hindus would be like upsetting the Chinese. Of course we are a culture of ahimsa and will always look for peaceful options, but push us too far, we can take to violence and be as extreme as the worst of them out there. I do not support violence myself and will always look for peaceful options.

The recent actions of India patenting Yoga and Ayurvedic drugs is an indication that Hindus wll fight :D[/QUOTE]

As an Arab with a sense of humour, you are lucky I do not accept this as a challenge:mad:

#58

The recent actions of India patenting Yoga [/QUOTE]

I also have no doubt whatsoever that this is an opportunistic move on India’s part to capitalize on the burgeoning billion dollar industry that yoga has become. They wanting their piece of the pie, as it were. I do not buy into the ‘rescuing yoga from filthy western hands’ for a second.

#59

SD- Your constant misunderstanding of what people are saying is curious indeed. I am trying very hard, I mean very hard, to be open minded and compassionate. Your anger and lack of compassion is something I shall pray for. Why would you treat me, or anyone else the way you have? You assume I learned yoga from a new age book. I have been a practitioner most of my (52) years and I teacher for over 5. I studied and took my training from a Hindu who came to US about 15 years ago. When I have mentioned this before you found reason to tell me that whatever training I got we not correct. How would you know? You think I should go back to basics, you don’t want to waste your time with me, you think I don’t understand yoga and the insults go on. Why? Why can’t we discuss and be civil while having differing views? In the West, the way I have been talked to by you would be considered disrespectful. I do not know everything. I never professed that I do. I am always seeking. I want to learn. I want to be open to new ideas. Your thread was started, in part, by our discussions and I find your arrogant attitude toward me and others not encouraging meaningful discussion. This is truly sad. We all could learn so much from each other. Again, I pray for you.

#60

[QUOTE=FlexPenguin;33867]I also have no doubt whatsoever that this is an opportunistic move on India’s part to capitalize on the burgeoning billion dollar industry that yoga has become. They wanting their piece of the pie, as it were. I do not buy into the ‘rescuing yoga from filthy western hands’ for a second.[/QUOTE]

It is possible. Hindus are very sharp when it comes to business sense. If there is a potential profit to be made, Hindus will jump on it :smiley:

The patent however is more about preventing Westerners from plagiarizing Hindu discoveries which is what Western companies have been doing recently. For example they filed for a patent on tumeric as a medicinal drug, and as soon as the Hindus learned of this they were obviously incensed and appealed against the patent as they have been using tumeric for thousands of years as a medicinal drug.

The recent abomination called Christian Yoga, possibly the most shamless Western attempt at appropriating Yoga is one of the many reasons why Hindus have taken to these measures. And the fact is the world will listen to us because they depend on our economy and the services we provide. If push came to shove we would withdraw our services. So Hindus can play tough if they want to.

I think what India is doing is great for defending Hindu intellectual property.